IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-06-13

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bskahanhi everyone15:59
th1aGood morning.16:00
* bskahan wonders how many people will remember the new time16:00
th1aWe'll see.16:00
* th1a is sleepy.16:00
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* tvon yawns16:00
th1aAnyone alive in Lithuania?16:01
* bskahan wonders if its hot in lithuania too16:01
tvonthis humid weather has got to go16:01
bskahanheat index > 100 here today16:02
th1aI carried the AC downstairs last night.16:02
tvondamn, it's not that hot here16:02
th1aI usually don't think about it until it is already too hot to venture up into the attic and lug it down.16:02
bskahantvon: have you seen the weather forecast?16:02
FarcePest <-- 92% humidity, 76 F16:02
bskahanI bet it will be by 1pm16:03
FarcePesthigh of 8716:03
* tvon is setting up weather applet now16:03
tvonupper 80's today16:04
* bskahan foresees a new meme of forcast screenshots16:04
* tvon thinks it would be the next sexy new thing for google maps16:04
th1aignas:  You guys awake?16:04
bskahan4pm is a little early ;)16:05
tvonnone of em responded to the time change email16:05
th1aHm... perhaps they all stopped reading my emails.16:05
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th1aOK, getting started regardless, any outstanding concerns about tomorrow's release?16:06
bskahanmind if we just proceed and hope they appear?16:06
bskahando you want the string change for timetables to schedule?16:06
th1aAh yes.16:06
bskahanI'll do that today16:06
th1aI meant like "Ah yes, we need to discuss that."16:07
bskahanfinal striing for "Timetable Schema"16:07
bskahanI shopped it around to a few teacher friends16:07
bskahanthey all looked at me like I was crazy16:08
bskahanschedule was the strong consensus16:08
bskahanwith "i don't care about 'blank/school/bell/whatever', just schedule"16:08
ignasth1a, yes we are16:09
ignasat least i am16:09
th1aYeah, well, the problem is that there are lots of kinds of schedule.16:09
bskahanclearly we'd be biased against en_UK16:09
th1aignas: Hi.16:09
bskahanhey ignas16:09
th1aI'm a bit confused about the significance of the "default" translation.16:09
tvonme too16:10
th1aWe're going to make an arbitrary choice about whether timetable/schedule is used in the application, but then we could go in and change the en-US and en-UK translations in Rosetta.16:11
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th1aWell, we've been calling these things timetables all along, so I think we should stick with that and change the en-US translation.16:11
bskahanit might make sense to keep the UI in sync with the code terminolgy, as much as is convenient16:12
th1aI like "template" over "schema."16:12
th1aso "timetable template"16:12
bskahanthe big question16:12
th1aWhere are our poll results?16:12
bskahanwhat's the default for IE and firefox16:12
bskahansince that's what people will see16:12
ignasbtw - among the teachers "School schedule" is the winner16:13
bskahanwhile among developers: timetable schema ;)16:14
bskahanoh, template16:14
bskahantemplate is not plain language, imnsho16:14
th1aschool timetable.16:15
th1aActually, that sounds pretty good.16:15
bskahanheh, not a poll option16:15
ignas+1 :)16:15
th1aSchool timetable... going once?16:16
bskahanbut I think that's a good compromise16:16
th1aOK.  That's that.16:16
th1aCan you take care of that bskahan?16:16
th1aOK.  I have one other concern that I put in the tracker but we haven't discussed.16:17
th1aIssue 285.16:17
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th1a"Import Timetables" should be "Import Sections" and for consistency it should be accessible from the16:18
th1asections index.  jinty permitting, I'd like to see this fixed for the release.16:18
bskahanwithout looking, I suspect its a zcml only change16:18
bskahanthat can be ftested16:18
jintyto schoolbell or schooltool code?16:18
jintyShouldn't be a problem16:19
bskahanit actaully imports courses and sections16:20
bskahanI'd prefer it to be in the course index16:21
* th1a doesn't have a SchoolTool running.16:21
th1aIf that's the case, I'm ok with it.16:21
* bskahan nods16:21
th1aCan you do this as well bskahan?16:22
* tvon updates16:22
bskahanyes, if it is a UI change I'll just do it, if it requires changing the actual importer, I'd like to run it by gintas16:23
th1aNo, don't change the importer.16:23
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th1aJust move and rename it.16:23
* bskahan nods16:24
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gintashi, sorry I'm late16:24
bskahanhi gintas16:24
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jintyhoi gintas, I was just about to backlport your i18n patches16:25
gintasI'm still not so sure we need i18n in that spot at all ;(16:25
th1aSteveA:  ayt?16:26
th1aOK.  Any other concerns about the release?16:27
jintyAh yes16:28
jintyDebian is in the middle of a C ABI change16:28
jintyso I probably will not be able to upload a new schoolbell for some time16:29
th1aOK.  Guess there's not much we can do about that.16:29
jintyI'll keep an eye on it and do what I can when I can.16:30
bskahanth1a: "Import Sections" is a little missleading about what that form actually does16:30
th1abskahan:  Do you have another suggestion?16:30
th1aDoes it do too many things at once?16:31
bskahan"Import School Timetable" would be more acurate16:31
bskahan"Import Schedule" would be accurate and fit16:31
gintasth1a, I also had doubts about the placement of that link16:31
gintasimport schedule looks nice16:31
gintasit's just that we also import rosters16:31
gintasbut maybe it's better to be understandable than to be precise16:31
th1aWell, I think from the user's point of view you're importing rosters.16:31
bskahanSetup Sections16:32
th1aSo my first thought was "Import rosters."16:32
bskahanits a very different form from the other "Import *" forms16:32
gintasat least it's trivial to change...16:32
th1aI think anything involving a CSV operation is an "import."16:33
gintasimport rosters and set up timetables? ;)16:33
bskahanI like import schedule16:33
ignaswell, sometimes import is the only way to add ...16:33
th1a"Import schedule" sounds too much like "school schedule."16:34
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th1aI think it should be "import sections" or "import roster."16:35
bskahanth1a: that form does setup the school schedule16:36
gintasAs long as the name points to the task performed, I think anything will do: people will click on the link and read about the form16:36
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4084:16:37
povbot/svn/commits: Back port 4080 and 4082 for i18n fix that may prevent the server starting under certain conditions.16:37
bskahanthe error feedback on that form probably should be more useful16:38
bskahane.g, tell you why it failed16:38
th1aI thought "school schedule/timetable" = "timetable schema"16:38
gintasdoesn't it?16:38
gintasif you get it to fail without an explanation, it's probably a bug then16:39
bskahanI copy/pasted the example into the text area (knowing it would break since I haven't setup that term/template) and I just get a zope error page16:39
gintasthat's odd16:39
gintascould it be that your Data.fs is old?16:40
bskahanlet me try16:40
gintasI tried to be careful and thorough with error handling in that form16:40
gintassomething might have slipped through though16:40
bskahangintas: must have been something in data.fs16:42
bskahanworks as expected after zapping it16:42
gintasthe error message placement in that form sucks though16:42
bskahanit doesn't actually create the schema16:43
gintasno, it does not16:43
bskahanI thought it did16:43
th1aOK.  Good.  Poking around the actual application again, I'm going to stick to my original position that "import sections" should be under the "sections" index.16:43
bskahanit creates courses and sections16:43
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4085:16:44
povbot/svn/commits: Back-ported 4076:4079, a fix for i18n in the schooltool release candidate.16:44
gintasI don't think it creates courses16:44
th1aBut there is a separate import courses.16:44
th1aIt really shouldn't create courses.16:44
gintasit doesn't16:44
bskahanimport sections it is then16:44
th1aOK.  Perfect.16:45
gintasin fact, it couldn't, because you only supply the id of the course16:45
th1atvon & bskahan:  I need a completion date for your 0.11 proposal.16:45
tvoncontract complete on July 8th16:46
gintasoh, by the way, if you're working on trunk, try to get rid of the i18n:translate warnings if you see them16:46
gintasI weeded most of them out, but some are still there16:46
th1agintas:  I'm going to need a proposal from you guys soon.16:47
gintasalga has started working on it16:48
th1aAlso, I'm going to be at conferences the next two Mondays, so I'm not sure if we'll be meeting.16:48
th1agintas:  Good.16:48
gintasso, tomorrow we're doing a SchoolTool release.  Are we releasing SB 1.1.1 too?16:49
jintybut without translations16:49
gintasheh, so much for a "translations-only release" ;)16:50
th1ajinty:  Sorry I didn't explicitly respond to your email about the release process a couple weeks ago.16:50
jintyyep, so much for that, though there were enough bugs in 1.1 to warrant another release;)16:50
jintyth1a: silence is consent:>16:51
gintasby the way, th1a, what's the status on a live SB/ST demo?16:51
th1aMy position is that once we get 0.11 out the door, we'll be able to handle a longer release process, and once ST is really in production, we'll have to have a longer, more careful process.16:51
* tvon would love to know what is going on with the Canonical server16:52
gintasI really think we need a live demo16:52
th1agintas:  Well, we finally seemed to have jdub's attention, until I mentioned needing Plone, and then he disappeared.16:52
jintyhopefully by just playing with the times in the mail I sent the new process can evolve. longer time intervals=more carefull16:52
bskahanubuntu website uses plone16:52
th1aSo we need to poke SteveA and have him in turn poke jdub again.16:52
tvonas does canonical16:53
th1abskahan:  Yeah, it might not have been that.  A rack might have coincidentally burst into flames the moment I wrote that.16:53
tvonthat would be unfortunate16:53
jintybtw, the automatic commit machinery for rosetta translations is set up. I have been running a test anacron job on my laptop over the past week.16:54
th1ajinty:  Good work.16:54
gintasare the problems with leading newlines fixed?16:54
jintygintas: test compiles every translation before replacing the file16:55
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4086:16:55
povbot/svn/commits: add link to timetable importer from the section index16:55
jintygintas: also it checks if the file is much smaller than the one it replaces16:55
th1abskahan:  Also get rid of the existing link.16:56
jintythe remaining problems are 1. rosetta is b0rked 2. My legal issues comitting this stuff16:56
gintasisn't signing a contributor's agreement enough?16:57
th1aRosetta should really have some facility for handling license issues.16:57
bskahanth1a: I did16:57
th1abskahan:  OK, good.16:57
gintasah, you mean committing translations created by other people?16:57
jintygintas: I have to have copyright over everything I commit. I don't have copyright on the translations.16:58
jintygintas: yep16:58
gintascould that script be set up by someone from Canonical then?  I think they have copyright, don't they?16:58
jintyor POV, but it needs to be modified twice every release16:59
th1atvon & bskahan:  I thought of one more thing that I think is small and important for 0.11.17:00
th1aNotes need to indicate whether or not they are public or private in the UI.17:00
jintygintas: having to send a request for such routine stuff every release will be a major pain in the ass17:00
th1aPerhaps green = public and pink = private, with a little text reminder, too.17:00
tvonth1a: ah, okay17:00
gintasjinty, what kind of routine stuff? Changing version numbers?17:01
th1aMaybe yellow for other people's notes.17:01
bskahancolor/icon indicator would be nice17:01
th1abskahan:  That would be fine.17:01
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th1aOK.  Time's up.17:02
* th1a bangs the virtual gavel.17:02
bskahanthat was quick17:02
tvongavel gavel whose got the gavel17:02
th1aTime flies this early in the morning.17:02
tvonsomething to do with being half awake17:02
bskahangintas, ignas do we have any stories for the next set that need coordinating?17:02
gintasit would be cool to deal with issues #100 and #22017:02
bskahane.g., things you need us to do early17:03
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gintasI don't know17:03
ignasnnot sure17:03
ignasshould ask alga about that17:03
bskahancan you guys try to let us know tomorrow, and we'll do the same?17:03
ignasok, i'll tell alga17:04
th1aActually, I'd like POV to do the school timetable wizard first, so we have maximum time to have people test it.17:04
jintygintas: the repository the script works on needs to be switched to the release branch, then back to trunk17:04
bskahangintas: I have some ideas about 22017:05
bskahanI probably won't try working on it until after july though17:07
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4087:17:07
povbot/svn/commits: change menu reference "Timetable Schema" to "School Schedule" and change schema container title.17:07
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bskahanoops, that really says "School Timetable", not schedule17:08
bskahananyone know a way to get the schooltool app url in zcml?17:14
gintasbskahan, what do you mean?17:14
bskahanI need to link from /app/sections to /app/csv-import in both z3 and schooltool server17:14
gintasth1a, I could patch up KOrganizer support today if you think it's worth attention17:14
bskahana relative url goes to /app/sections/csv-import, while an absolute url goes to /app/csv-import17:15
th1agintas:  If you feel motivated, go for it.17:15
bskahaner, an absolute url goes to /csv-import, not /app/csv-import17:15
gintasthe view should be on /sections then perhaps17:16
gintasthat should be easy to change17:17
gintasok, maybe not17:17
gintasit would17:19
bskahantrying now17:19
gintasjust change TimetableCSVImporter.__init__ to take 'sections' instead of 'app' as an argument17:20
gintasthen you can do 'self.sections = sections' (you might need removeSecurityProxy)17:20
gintasand then = self.sections.__parent__17:20
jelknerth1a: hi tom17:23
th1aHi Jeff.  What's up?17:23
jelkneris the meeting over?17:23
th1aYou're not going to Maine next week are you?17:23
th1aYes, the meeting is over.17:23
jelkneri'm still in school17:24
jelknerbut i'll be in philly17:24
th1aOK.  Good.17:24
gintasbskahan, I actually had a bug opened for the placement of that link17:25
gintaswhen you're done, close
jelkneri am trying an experiment with two of my students, and would appreciate a bit of feedback17:25
jelkneri need to figure out how realistic it is to have the group of high school hackers understand the schooltool source17:26
jelknerso i've tasked two of the best with the following:17:26
jelkneradd pizza topings to the the person class17:26
jelknereach person could add the pizza topings they like to their personal data17:27
jelknerthen create a group17:27
jelknerand have schooltool generate pizzas which would be acceptable to everyone in the group17:28
jelknerhow difficult a task does is that?17:29
jelkneri'm hoping for something that will force them inside the schooltool source, but which won't be too hard to do.17:29
bskahanjelkner: did dwoo add the topping preference?17:30
jelkneri haven't seen him yet today17:30
jelkneri'll know in about 30 minutes17:30
bskahanhe was on the right track yesterday17:31
th1aI think I remember him saying that he had.17:31
jelknerbtw.  we had a great code fest last thursday17:31
th1aAre you steadily winning people over to Zope 3?17:31
jelknertoo early to tell...17:32
jelknerbut one thing that was a *big* help was that someone showed up who wants to base his business on schooltool17:35
th1aWe'll just have to see if your students can pull this off.  If not, we'll have to know what documentation, etc. needs to be written.17:35
th1ajelkner:  Oh, really?17:35
th1aWho is that?17:36
jelknerRichard Shebora17:36
jelknerhe has been working with zope for years17:36
jelknerhold on...17:37
jelknerhere is his website: http://www.apogee-tech.com17:39
jelknerhe even offers web hosting with zope17:39
jelknerhe knows of several schools in need of a data management system17:39
jelknerand wants to use schooltool for that17:40
jelknerso he is very motivated to learn17:40
jelknerand willing to work with us on thursday evenings17:40
jelknerhe was singing the praises of zope 3 last week17:40
jelknerwhich was a big help17:40
* th1a wonders if he has talked to Richard under his IRC nick or something.17:41
th1aWe need more Zope 3 fans.17:41
jelknerlooks like schooltool will be zope 3's first "killer app"17:41
jelknershould go a long way toward generating interest17:42
jelknerand providing something well written from which to learn17:42
th1ajelkner:  Anyhow, I think the worst case scenario for schooltool development this summer is that you might need to prototype things as plain Zope 3 packages and then have us show you how to wire them into SchoolTool.17:42
jelkneri don't know, tom, the more i look at schooltool, the more i think we don't want to do that17:43
jelknerwe don't want to have to recreate person, course, section, group objects17:43
jelknerwe want to use the ones that are already there17:44
th1aYeah, I didn't mean recreate our objects.17:44
th1aI mean, create the new objects as Zope 3 objects and then wire them into SchoolTool.17:44
bskahanth1a: there's a barrier to creating a schoolbell independent z3 app that will then integrate with schooltool17:44
th1aYes, my idea may be a bad one anyhow.17:45
jelknerwhat will be interesting, is figuring out how best to package optional add-on schooltool stuff17:45
jelknerthat requires schooltool, but which wouldn't come with the default distro17:46
th1aThe point of all this stuff is that you should be able to integrate other Zope 3 packages using ZCML.17:46
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4088:17:46
povbot/svn/commits: Trivial fix to make iCalendar uploads from KOrganizer work.  Addresses issue100.  Some problems still remain.17:46
povbot/svn/commits: It would be neat to backport this, I'm quite confident that this change will not break anything.17:46
th1aRight, once we get SchoolTool 0.11 out the door, we're going to start focusing on these "platform" issues.17:47
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4089:17:47
povbot/svn/commits: move the ttschema import form to the sections container17:47
bskahanth1a: have you talked to mark about the relationship library lisence?17:50
bskahanmoving that into Zope core will go a long way to making schooltool as a platform more feasible17:51
bskahanzope3 apps that use the schoolbell relationship model will be much easier to integrate together than an app that doesn't use it17:51
th1aI have to hope that those issues can be worked out at EuroPython.17:51
th1aI think Mark is going to EuroPython.17:51
th1a(although I'm not).17:52
th1aBut really, Mark needs to talk to some of the Zope 3 people about this more than he needs to talk to me about it.17:52
bskahangintas: can you take a look at 408917:56
bskahanthere's an unneeded container variable18:02
gintasI was just about to ask about that18:03
gintasother than that it looks fine to me18:03
bskahannot a trivial task, but a variation on that importer could setup an entire school18:05
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4090:18:07
povbot/svn/commits: remove unused variable18:07
jelknerAre archives of #schooltool saved?19:00
jelknerNever mind, woo found the archive19:01
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povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4091:19:27
povbot/svn/commits: make the person schedule view use section labels instead of section titles19:27
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dwooHello everyone. I have another question, if you don't mind.20:00
th1ahi dwoo.  So you're one of Jeff's students?20:03
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dwooWhat's ILocation?20:11
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th1aHere's some explanation:
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bskahanhaven't done css20:20
th1abskahan:  That looks good so far.20:20
bskahanbut that's the form layout20:20
th1aI'm assuming that you still add a section in one of its periods and then all the periods are added after you submit?20:21
bskahanthat's the person scheduing view20:22
bskahanmisunderstood what you meant20:24
th1aWe just need to warn people about that.20:24
th1aSomeday someone can write a nice Ajax implementation that does it automatically.20:24
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bskahanmaybe I don't understand20:25
bskahanwe can remove the submit buttons20:25
bskahanand make it instant apply20:25
th1aIf a math section meets at 9:00 every day,20:25
bskahanthat's just not really desirable in cases where people might change their mind20:25
th1aand I add it on Monday, it should automatically be added the rest of the week.20:26
bskahanyeah, that works20:26
th1aOr removed, as the case may be.20:26
bskahannot removed though20:26
th1adwoo:  Are you making a separate facet for pizza toppings?20:27
bskahanth1a: there is no facet20:30
bskahanno spoon either20:30
th1aAre errors logged to schooltool.log?20:32
th1aAh, yes they are.20:33
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th1abskahan:  take a look at the bug report Bruce Selzler just sent to the list.20:39
bskahannot sure without more info, I haven't seen that bug20:44
th1aRight, but how can we get more info about what the permissions bug might be.20:45
th1aI suspect this might be some kind of migration bug.20:45
bskahanth1a: that's the url to get the error log online21:04
bskahanthat's a tricky one to debug, because he isn't getting an error that would be logged by default21:06
bskahanzope 3 start time got noticably slower in the last few weeks21:08
bskahan /++etc++site/default/RootErrorReportingUtility/@@configure.html21:10
th1abskahan:  Thanks for posting that.21:20
bskahanundo and redo basically work by the way21:20
bskahanif you happen to know where they are21:20
bskahanand your using schooltool installed in the ZMI21:22
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povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4092:23:44
povbot/svn/commits: added isLocation to the IResource interface and app.Resource23:44

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