IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-06-06

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povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4055:12:54
povbot/svn/commits: very safe fix for part of issue27412:54
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 4056:17:29
povbot/svn/commits: Removed unused code.17:29
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 4057:17:32
povbot/svn/commits: Made the course attribute optional - it is ignored anyway.17:32
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4058:17:50
povbot/svn/commits: added utilities for RESTive relationships between courses and sections.17:50
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th1aignas:  Hi.17:54
algathe 'hi' psychosis :-)17:56
th1asrichter:  ayt?17:56
th1aI think Stephan has a class at this time now, or he will soon, so we'll need to make these meetings a little earlier at some point.17:58
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th1aOK... I'd like to have the outstanding bugs from the work on the last contract closed before we pay you guys, so let's discuss what needs to be done quickly.17:59
th1aEtria: issue 242.18:00
tvonIRT 242, I'd like to make some overall fixes with personpreferences and backport them18:00
tvonit involves changing the values that preferences store (date/time format strings) which means a db generation18:00
tvonthere are already a few hacks in there to get around this... I'd rather fix the real problem then throw in another hack18:01
bskahanwhich would close issue259 as well18:01
th1aWell, if that's what needs to be done.  242 is a big bug and it needs to be fixed.18:01
* tvon nods18:02
th1aNot sure what jinty will think of it, but there's not much we can do about it.18:02
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th1aSpeak of the devil...18:02
bskahansnuck that one in, just in time18:02
jintyI did boot mu laptop at 518:03
th1aIs issue 265 resolved in the trunk?18:05
th1aIssue 266?18:05
alga266: yes18:06
bskahan265 is done-cbb, not supposed to call __parent__ in tal18:07
ignas266 - one small patch fixing the bug, and one huge patch making it work properly18:07
alga265 just lacks a 'resolved' status AFAICS18:07
th1aOK, moving on then.18:07
th1aI assume you guys got my email outlining the goals for the next releases.18:08
jintyshould 4053 also be back-ported for 266?18:08
th1aI saw jinty is planning on being on the road when I'd like to release.18:08
jintywill probably not be able to get online regularly at all18:09
algajinty: IMO 4044 is a patch to be backported18:09
alga4053 is too intrusive18:09
th1ajinty:  What's the time period you'll be traveling?18:09
ignasjinty, well imho it is too big and too complex for a release ... and the bug was fixed in the earlier patch18:10
jintyth1a: the whole of july18:10
ignasdepends on whether th1a thinks the behgaviour implemented in 4053 is worth it ...18:10
jintyignas, alga: Ok, thanks.18:10
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4059:18:10
povbot/svn/commits: back-port 4044 for issue 26618:10
th1ajinty:  OK, we'll have to try to figure out a plan later.18:11
th1aSo... comments on my proposal?18:11
th1aThis is strictly stuff that needs to be done for calendaring.18:11
th1abskahan proposed some other changes that need to be done, but aren't necessary to get SchoolBell Calendar 0.11 out the door.18:12
algaSorry, I haven't read it yet18:12
algaoverrun with mail18:13
th1aSeveral of these things have been implemented at least partially in earlier versions.18:13
th1aDo you want me to resend it or can you find it.18:13
bskahanadding a time widget should be in .11, it doesn't need to be JS, can just be a selection form18:13
algaI've found it18:13
th1aI think I sent it to the SchoolTool list.18:13
th1abskahan:  Simple is good.18:14
* jinty searches for outstanding things to back-port18:15
algath1a: timetabe changes seems tough18:15
algathe rest is straightforward AFAICS18:16
th1aJust remember that we aren't actually changing the timetable.18:16
th1aThis is just a form that'll create a set of events.18:16
th1aCalendar events.18:16
th1aIt'll take a few days, to be sure.18:16
algabut the timetable events will remain there?18:16
algaI was thinking along the lines of making an exception day template18:17
algawe have this kind of thing for different weekdays18:17
algabut we could change it to be assigned by date, would be much more flexible18:18
algabut it would change the timetable for that day18:19
* ignas is not sure the "emergency days" must get a replacement day in lithuania ...18:19
th1aI envision a form that would have the standard periods for the day selected.  You'd be able to edit the period's start and end times, and insert extra events where you want.18:19
th1aOf course, this may be the kind of thing that doesn't make much sense in Lithuania, either.18:19
algawe do have emergency days18:20
th1aIf your periods are all based on the time of day, you can't easily rearrange them.18:20
ignasbtw - what about canceling lessons for 1-7 grades only ?18:20
th1aignas:  oy.18:20
ignasiirc if weather is not very awfull - only small kids are allowed to stay home18:20
th1aIn the same school?18:21
ignasnot sure though18:21
th1aignas:  I don't think we're going to cover that case in this iteration.18:21
ignasabout the same school18:21
th1aBut also you can get a similar case with timetable changes,18:22
th1aperhaps only the 9th grade has an assembly which rearranges their schedule.18:22
th1aWhich is a good reason I think to handle these things as calendar events rather than modifications in the schoolwide timetable.18:22
algare UI Handling Large Sets18:22
algaI absolutely hate batching18:23
algaif you cannot turn it off18:23
th1aI don't have a strong opinion either way, but I didn't like being constantly confronted with a search form when I had a small set of objects anyhow.18:24
bskahanI don't like having the search form seperate from the list18:24
th1abskahan:  Yes.18:24
bskahanI'd rather have the search form always above the batch index18:25
algaand a way to extend the batch18:25
alga20 - 100 - 500 - unlimited18:25
bskahanthat would be good18:25
bskahanwhat are the opinions about using the batching mechanism that's in the zope tree?18:25
algaI know nothing about it18:26
bskahanwe'd have to import it into schoolbell since I doubt it will be packaged18:26
algaisn't there something for batching in tal:repeat?18:26
bskahanalga: it seems pretty straight forward, and its a small module18:26
bskahanalga: not that I know of, but there could be18:27
algahm, take a look at
algait is doable without any external support18:29
bskahanI was looking at that18:29
algabut since we'll want a filter, we'll need some support in the views anyway18:29
th1aLithuanians:  What do you do in Lithuania when there is a special event in the school day?  Just eliminate one or more class, or rearrange the times of all the classes?  Or have the event after school?18:30
algasometimes all classes are squeezed from 45 mins to 30 mins, and the event takes place at 13:0018:31
algaor 12:0018:31
th1aalga:  OK.18:31
ignassometimes we lose some lessons18:31
th1aRight.  Same here.18:31
bskahanth1a: the GPL js calendar widget that I know of is substantial amount of javascript code18:31
th1aThat's in Plone?18:32
bskahanso I've heard, I think plone took it some time ago though18:33
bskahannot sure how in sync they are18:33
th1aDo you think having separate fields for day/month/year would be helpful.18:35
th1aI just get worried about confusion with the different date formats floating around.18:35
tvonbetter than what we currently have18:36
ignaswhy ?18:36
algatvon: depends on how you look18:36
algafor a proficient user, a single entry is simpler18:36
ignasentering a date in plain text is not that bad ...18:36
ignasmultiple select boxes are evil18:37
ignastyping 3118:37
ignasis a lot easier than selecting 3118:37
algathe e-banking apps I use have this:18:37
ignasand what about 23 ?18:37
algaa text entry that I can enter and an icon for a JS calendar18:37
algaIf I'm sure of the format, I can enter it18:37
algaif not, I just use the calendar popup18:38
ignasexactly the approach i like18:38
bskahanthe calendar just fills in the text field (in the correct format)18:38
ignaswe can make the format fuzzy anyway ... it's not extremally hard to support both US and ISO18:39
* bskahan nods18:39
algaI've seen English use slashes18:39
bskahan / - . are all reasonably common18:40
th1aWell, the point here is that doing a calendar popup would take a while, right?18:40
algaIMNSHO you should only use slashes in an American format -- mm/dd/yy18:40
th1aIt couldn't just be knocked out in a couple days?18:40
bskahanit could be done in a few days and work in mozilla18:41
algathere's plenty of inspiration on the web :-)18:41
bskahangetting it working across moz/ie/safari might take a bit longer18:41
ignaswell 2-3 days for a calendar i guess18:41
algawhat is safari? :-)18:41
th1aMac OS X.18:42
ignasthe safari part might be difficult18:42
ignasnot sure though18:42
th1aMostly the KHTML renderer.18:42
ignascalendars are not that complex18:42
bskahannot according to the khtml guys ;)18:42
bskahanI think its doable18:42
th1aWell, we'll see what the overall time estimates look like.18:42
th1abskahan: "mostly"18:42
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th1aCan we run down the list and get a sense of who might do what so we can start drafting time estimates and schedules?18:43
algaTTS wizard -- us18:43
th1aNothing set in stone at this point.18:43
algawe have a nice idea of how it can be done, scalably18:44
th1aOK.  I'm making some simple HTML mock ups today.18:44
th1aalga:  Great.18:44
algawe can use the zope3 session to store the partially set up tts18:44
th1aalga:  Cool.18:44
bskahan* schoolwide calendar18:44
bskahan* calendar/time widgets for forms18:44
bskahan* UI handling large sets18:44
bskahan* fix the access control form18:44
bskahan* more conditional links18:44
bskahan* set the school name18:44
bskahan* not allowing resources to be added to groups?18:44
th1aI was wondering about that.18:44
bskahan* handling resources that are added to sections18:45
th1abskahan:  Are those the ones you want?18:45
bskahanthey seem to be the more UI oriented18:45
th1aDo you have any particular thoughts about the ACL form?18:45
bskahantvon: poke18:46
tvonI'm here18:46
th1aIf not, I'd rather have alga take care of it.18:46
tvonI have nothing specific in mind18:46
bskahanfor alga then18:47
tvonI just don't want it to end up like the Z2 security views18:47
th1aWell, alga should probably handle splitting it into two parts.18:47
algaI could, but it's nothing complex18:47
th1aalga:  True.18:47
th1aOK, let's let Etria have a crack at it.18:47
bskahanI had included it because the way I understood it was just a goal to simplfy the UI, not actually change the behavior18:48
th1aOK, this leaves the hard ones for POV ;-)18:48
tvonhah, suckers18:48
algaat least we will not botch anything18:48
th1aOhhh.... SNAP!18:48
th1aAll right boys, let's keep it civil.18:49
algahe started first!18:49
th1aMoving on...18:50
bskahanif you guys think there's an unfair division of labor, I'd be into doing the wizard as well18:50
th1aIt is probably about even time-wise.18:50
bskahanbut I thought that was allready discussed on an earlier milestone18:50
th1abskahan:  It was squeezed because of time.18:51
th1aOK, so for POV that leaves:18:51
th1a* tt schema generation18:51
th1a* emergency days18:51
th1a* special events18:51
th1a* PDFs18:52
bskahanpdfs are being done by reportlab?18:53
th1aThey're GPL-ing a nice timetable widget for us.18:53
th1aSo basically we just need to coordinate with them how to get the timetable data.18:53
th1aIt handles spanning different length periods and such nicely.18:54
th1aAll the touchy little exceptions that wouldn't let you use a simple table.18:54
th1aI'll be writing up a proposal for them this week.18:54
th1aalso for POV:18:54
th1a* stopping users from deleting their own accounts18:55
th1a* keeping track of the date while changing calendar views18:55
th1aIs that something we could use Zope 3 sessions for?18:55
ignasth1a, we should not forget the postfreeze code cleanup :)18:55
th1aignas:  Leaving time for it?18:56
ignasi mean this freeze that will be over soon18:56
ignasthe cleanup of things that were done with motivation like "the release is so soon so we are going to copy paste and skip the refactoring bit"18:57
th1aOh.  Refactoring.18:58
ignasrefactoring, finishing unfinished tests and stuff18:58
* tvon wants to refactor csv stuffs18:58
algaWell, in theory it must be done as you go18:58
tvonI don't think it should be part of a contract or anything, just mentioning it18:59
th1aOK.  Well, at this point in the project we need to, I guess, figure out how to differentiating between things that you're refactoring because you didn't get right in the last contract, and refactoring that needs to be done because of longer term gaps which have just opened up as the application has grown.19:00
th1ai.e., things that you could have avoided and things you aren't directly responsible for.19:00
th1aThis is kind of unknown territory for me, management-wise.19:01
tvoncsv is the former19:01
algaSome 'longer term gaps' refactorings  were usually proposed as separate stories19:01
algalike various steps of zope3 migration19:01
th1aalga:  Yeah, that's how it has worked out thus far.19:02
* bskahan generally assumes if he touched it and its broken, he's probably responsible19:02
th1aAll right.  Our time is up.  I'd appreciate some estimates on time and schedule sometime soon.19:02
bskahanI think in general everything in the second case could be proposed as a seperate story19:03
th1aWe'll have to tighten up the stories as well.19:03
* th1a bangs the virtual gavel.19:03
algath1a: when is the next release planned?19:03
th1aNotwithstanding jinty's travels, I'd like to have it out before August, in time for the upcoming school year.19:04
th1aWhen does school start in Europe?19:04
jintyaugust 1 also fits with Ubuntu19:04
th1aSeptember 1?19:04
algain post-soviet countries19:05
bskahanI'm away from June 27 - July 16th, so my part of etria's stories will be front loaded19:05
th1aSo, ideally a mid-July release candidate.19:05
algawe're all going to Europython in late June19:05
algafor a bit longer than a week19:06
th1aWell, let's get a sense of how many developer days we're looking at.19:06
* jinty thinks he probably will only be available again on august 5 or so.19:06
th1aThis can be trimmed if necessary.19:06
th1aWell, perhaps we'll do a release without the Debian/Ubuntu packages until jinty gets back.19:07
th1aWe can probably manage that... this'll be a fairly incremental release.19:08
tvonso, my plan for personpreferences was to store the strftime string as the actual value19:08
bskahantvon: the way timeformat is stored?19:08
tvonHow does this impact upon our restive views and potential future clients?19:08
tvoneg, HH:MM is stored as %R19:09
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4060:19:09
povbot/svn/commits: Updated docstring.19:09
bskahandateformat is a browser view preference19:09
algawhy not %H:%M19:09
bskahanit doesn't have huge relevence for REST clients, who can have their own display preferences19:09
tvontime formatting strings are fairly standard but not formalized afaik19:09
tvonbskahan: true19:09
tvonalga: no reason, %R == %H:%M19:10
bskahannot on windows, iirc19:10
algaI think storing a format string is very reasonable19:10
bskahanbut, either way the REST interface should probably always have ISO standard formats19:10
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4061:19:11
povbot/svn/commits: Create and install a schooltool-rest-client script19:11
tvonbskahan: you mean when returning values always use iso and ignore preferneces?19:11
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4062:19:12
povbot/svn/commits: Change to default python for SchoolTool. Revert it if you think it's a bad idea.19:12
th1aREST is an API.  We can define the date formats it uses.19:12
bskahantvon: yes19:12
th1aDevelopers should be able to handle it.  They're used to that kind of thing.19:13
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4063:19:13
povbot/svn/commits: Change to to default python for SchoolBell, this fixes issue 271.19:13
bskahanthe REST interface only returns dated object in iCal anyway, right?19:13
* jinty 's battery dies.... till later.19:13
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tvonbskahan: did you say that you don't think %R == %H:%M in windows?19:15
bskahani thought there was some bug about that a few months ago19:15
bskahanwould be in the issue tracker19:16
bskahansomething about log formats19:16
* bskahan nods19:19
bskahanwrong formatting code19:19
* th1a is patiently waiting for the resolution of these Apple/Intel rumors.19:21
* bskahan notes that no rumor says "Apple will run on x86", just "on intel"19:22
tvonit will never run on normal pc boxes, but switching from IBM would still be a big deal19:23
th1aiirc the WSJ sez they'll be x86, but I agree that some non x86 arch is likely.19:23
ignas # Apple To Switch To Sun Chips19:23
ignasi thought that apple is switching to Suns19:23
th1aSadly, no.19:24
bskahanthey probably just can't figure out how to get the G5 into a laptop that won't melt your lap19:25
th1aIt never seemed very plausible to me.19:26
th1aI mean, if you look at the heatsink in the G5 tower, and then imagine replacing that with your thigh, it doesn't seem very promising.19:27
tvoneh, the only hour formats that are cross-platform safe are zero padded19:35
tvonsame with day19:38
bskahantvon: that's ugly19:40
tvonbskahan: yeah19:40
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tvonhalfway down19:40
tvonthe 1989 C standard is the rule19:41
tvonaccording to the bottom of this page:
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erchacheoucccchhhh i forget meeting20:11
th1aThe logs are accessible from http://source.schooltool.org20:12
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erchachei know :D20:18
erchachebut im working on other project and forget it20:18
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th1aWell, it's Mac OS on x86 after all.20:50
tvonth1a: got a mac gossip site url? :)20:53
tvonMarklar thing is interesting20:57
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* bskahan eats crow on the apple-x86 issue21:05
th1aYeah, I'm a bit surprised myself.21:05
th1aIt's going to hurt their laptop sales in the next year.21:05
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bskahanth1a: it might be a good idea to get some performance testing in this summer21:27
bskahaneg. what happens every morning at 7:45 when every teacher rolls in and checks the calendar at the same time21:28
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th1abskahan:  We should, but I don't see that as being a big issue yet.21:56
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th1aHas anyone checked out BeBop?22:24
bskahanno, have a link?22:29
bskahanoh yeah22:29
bskahanno, I saw it22:29
th1aZope 3, wxWindows.22:29
bskahanit doesn't look very user friendly22:30
th1aI'm puzzled about how the client interacts with the server.22:30
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 4064:22:32
povbot/svn/commits: Ftest for scheduling a single student.22:32
bskahanthe versioning/locking looks interesting22:32
th1aThey've got a nice Mac installer, but I'd rather have a proper init script.22:33
th1aBeing able to start a server with one click doesn't do you too much damn good.22:34
th1aI'll have to work on that this week.22:34
th1aPlus I just had to force-kill the client app.  Thank god that's one thing we don't have to debug.22:35
bskahanI've tried emailing james at canonical btw, haven't heard back about the server22:35
th1aI'll nag SteveA.22:35
bskahanhaving a demo server will alleviate the need to have "one-click to try it out"22:36
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