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| stockholm | is Brian here? | 15:30 |
|---|---|---|
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| jinty | hoi stockholm, you wanted to speak to me ? | 17:46 |
| stockholm | jinty: i just wanted to tell you that i had even more health issues. | 17:47 |
| stockholm | jinty: and wanted to beg you pardon that i did not yet upload your package | 17:47 |
| jinty | please, no worries. I saw that you were not active on any lists and thought there was something a little more serious | 17:48 |
| stockholm | jinty: my son had 40°C fever from monday to saturday | 17:48 |
| stockholm | now he got diarria and barfs. | 17:48 |
| stockholm | yes... | 17:48 |
| jinty | ouch! Oh my gosh, the joys of children | 17:48 |
| stockholm | what is the proper name for "barfing"? | 17:49 |
| stockholm | :-/ | 17:49 |
| jinty | vomiting | 17:49 |
| tvon | vomiting | 17:49 |
| stockholm | yes. | 17:49 |
| * stockholm remebers that word... | 17:49 | |
| jinty | but there are more than one kind, for instance projectile vomiting | 17:49 |
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| jinty | perhaps, if he gets sick enough when he is young, he will be immune later. You can hope at least | 17:53 |
| stockholm | jinty: that is what people say, yes. it is workout for the immune system | 17:54 |
| stockholm | btw: cerebrum is python. lots of it. | 17:54 |
| stockholm | is anyone here bored? i think those guys need some help. | 17:55 |
| stockholm | well, debian-edu would, to get cerebrum in debian-edu off the ground | 17:55 |
| th1a | What do they need help with? | 17:55 |
| th1a | Modeling the education stuff? | 17:55 |
| stockholm | th1a: they have for every institution (and its infrastructure) forked a couple of files | 17:56 |
| th1a | What do you mean? | 17:57 |
| stockholm | th1a: and one needs to reinplement parts from scratch to adjust it | 17:57 |
| stockholm | th1a: there is the university in oslo, UiO. | 17:57 |
| stockholm | they have one version of the commands which can be executed in the client | 17:58 |
| stockholm | then there are HiA, and 5 other universities forking that same file | 17:58 |
| stockholm | instead of making stuff properly configureable. | 17:58 |
| th1a | It is all LDAP stuff? | 17:59 |
| stockholm | at present there is no way to configure this. | 17:59 |
| stockholm | no, this is not ldap specific | 17:59 |
| stockholm | it is postgresql based, and can export to different frontend directories | 18:00 |
| th1a | OK. | 18:00 |
| th1a | Do they have a mailing list? | 18:00 |
| stockholm | yes: | 18:01 |
| stockholm | cerebrum-developers@usit.uio.no | 18:01 |
| stockholm | cerebrum-commits@usit.uio.no | 18:02 |
| th1a | Hm... what do I need to do to susbscribe? | 18:02 |
| stockholm | -developers is kind of dead, while -commits is kind of lifely | 18:02 |
| stockholm | i would have tried to send mail to -developers-request or -help | 18:03 |
| th1a | OK. I'll give that a shot. | 18:03 |
| th1a | All right, I should start our meeting... | 18:04 |
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| jinty | stockholm: tomorrow is the day for 0.9 packages if all goes well... | 18:04 |
| th1a | The most pressing problem that seems to require discussion between the two teams is the sequencing of work on the current contracts, | 18:05 |
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| th1a | because a lot of Etria's work depends on when POV gets things done. | 18:05 |
| th1a | But tvon and bskahan have been thinking about this in more detail than me. | 18:06 |
| tvon | Okay | 18:06 |
| tvon | There are three key items here: | 18:07 |
| tvon | All day events, event descriptions, free busy information..merge event and booking forms... | 18:07 |
| tvon | okay, 4 key items | 18:07 |
| tvon | and time zones | 18:08 |
| tvon | TZ config was left with the notion that POV had to do something in the base system before we could do it on the users end of things | 18:08 |
| mgedmin | all day events are trickiest, I think | 18:08 |
| tvon | Yeah, I'm not sure how they will work. IIRC the last point on that was that POV was going to poke it with a stick | 18:09 |
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| tvon | Hows calendar work going? | 18:12 |
| th1a | So for all-day events and timezones Etria would be doing the UI work and POV doing the back-end as they migrate to Zope 3, right? | 18:12 |
| bskahan | what if we change dtstart to dstart/tstart | 18:12 |
| tvon | th1a: right | 18:13 |
| th1a | So Etria needs an estimate of when the back end work will be done, unless there is some way they can mock up the UI work without the back end working. | 18:14 |
| tvon | we can do the bare essentials...namely the screen where the user chooses the preferences | 18:14 |
| th1a | Comments from Vilnius? | 18:16 |
| bskahan | we can do the backend work as well, but got the impression marius wanted to look at it first | 18:17 |
| th1a | bskahan: I was just thinking that would make sense. | 18:17 |
| tvon | yeah, I'm fine with that | 18:17 |
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| th1a | *tap* *tap* Is this thing on? | 18:20 |
| tvon | heh | 18:20 |
| alga | right | 18:20 |
| alga | Marius is delivering an animaded show about why he is offline | 18:21 |
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| tvon | hah | 18:21 |
| mgedmin | aarg, some stale dhclient decided my lease has expired | 18:21 |
| mgedmin | and I was wondering why everyone was so quiet | 18:22 |
| * mgedmin looking at logs | 18:22 | |
| tvon | hehe | 18:22 |
| alga | basically, we're overwhelmed with refitting the existing functionality to work in Zope 3 | 18:24 |
| alga | and thinking about new stuff seems weird and difficult :-) | 18:24 |
| tvon | heh | 18:25 |
| th1a | I'd imagine. | 18:25 |
| th1a | OK, so perhaps we should assume that Etria is going to handle all of the all-day events implementation. | 18:25 |
| bskahan | we're happy to do the new work, just not sure where in your work it fits | 18:25 |
| alga | tvon, bskahan: do you think you can do test-first development? | 18:26 |
| bskahan | ex., merging the booking/event forms in the UI can't happen without bookings ;) | 18:26 |
| th1a | Working on the active Zope 3 branch will require more rigorous testing, since all kinds of changes will be going on at the same time (I imagine). | 18:27 |
| bskahan | alga: yes, had planned to try the ping -pong pair programming because it fits with my malicious streak. | 18:27 |
| alga | hehe | 18:27 |
| tvon | yeah | 18:27 |
| th1a | It seems like test-first is easier with doctests. | 18:28 |
| th1a | More natural. | 18:28 |
| alga | well, yes | 18:28 |
| alga | it's less of a syntactic challenge | 18:29 |
| alga | to think of it, unittest.py is a separate sub-langugage | 18:29 |
| th1a | Yeah. It is a bit much for an amateur like me. | 18:29 |
| th1a | Anyhow... | 18:29 |
| alga | but the idea is the same -- to express your design decisions in the tests | 18:30 |
| th1a | Right. | 18:30 |
| th1a | So... timezones. | 18:30 |
| th1a | Actually, let's think about this. | 18:31 |
| th1a | What's the best way to ease Etria into working on the Zope 3 bits? | 18:31 |
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| alga | I think it would be best if Etria would work on the schoolbell package | 18:32 |
| alga | the core calendaring functionality is almost there | 18:32 |
| alga | we're actively developing it, so I hope it would imply more peer-review | 18:33 |
| alga | I'm quite bad at reading diffs, you know | 18:33 |
| bskahan | heh | 18:33 |
| th1a | What about adding event descriptions? | 18:33 |
| th1a | That sounds pretty straightforward. | 18:33 |
| mgedmin | yes | 18:33 |
| alga | true | 18:34 |
| tvon | yeah | 18:34 |
| gintas | at the moment we have the calendar views, more or less | 18:34 |
| gintas | but the event editing form is not yet done, deleting too | 18:34 |
| gintas | we have r/o access only at the moment | 18:34 |
| th1a | I guess adding user preferences isn't dependent on calendaring being ready. | 18:35 |
| bskahan | no | 18:35 |
| tvon | nah, user preferences are pretty straightforward | 18:35 |
| gintas | we could of course modify the backend to accommodate event descriptions and the main views too | 18:35 |
| alga | are we going to put them in annotations? | 18:35 |
| mgedmin | no | 18:36 |
| mgedmin | event descriptions are data | 18:36 |
| tvon | preferences? | 18:36 |
| tvon | preferences = annotations | 18:36 |
| bskahan | alga: preferencses? that wast the plan | 18:36 |
| mgedmin | oh, preferences | 18:36 |
| alga | ok | 18:36 |
| mgedmin | interleaved conversations are fun | 18:36 |
| alga | we need an adapter request -> person | 18:36 |
| tvon | threading issues | 18:36 |
| mgedmin | I'm pretty sure the backend does not need any changes to support timezones (since all conversion between UTC and user's tz will be done in views) | 18:37 |
| tvon | We do need to make sure the server stores it in UTC, don't we? | 18:38 |
| alga | we'll just assume that all the internal times are UTC | 18:38 |
| bskahan | no, need a sitewide preference for the server offset | 18:38 |
| tvon | eg if the server itself is set to EST or some other TZ? | 18:38 |
| mgedmin | import datetime | 18:38 |
| mgedmin | datetime.datetime.utcnow() | 18:38 |
| tvon | ah | 18:38 |
| mgedmin | we don't care about the server's timezone | 18:38 |
| bskahan | ok | 18:39 |
| alga | all day events are tricky though | 18:39 |
| alga | I guess we'll have to special case them everywere | 18:39 |
| alga | everywhere | 18:39 |
| bskahan | early comment got lost. what about breaking dtstart into dstart and tstart components | 18:40 |
| alga | murky still | 18:40 |
| bskahan | all day events dont have a time start | 18:40 |
| alga | 23:00 in london is 3:00 AM in Moscow | 18:40 |
| alga | different dates | 18:40 |
| mgedmin | bskahan, I do not think it gives us anything | 18:40 |
| mgedmin | precisely | 18:40 |
| gintas | we could set tstart to None | 18:40 |
| mgedmin | we can have event.dtstart be a date instead of a datetime | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | or we can have different event interfaces | 18:41 |
| alga | what about 0:00 UTC? | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | I suggest postponing all-day events and working on descriptions/timezones/preferences | 18:41 |
| th1a | mgedmin: I think that's a good idea. | 18:42 |
| tvon | Was there any decision on using pytz? | 18:42 |
| th1a | What's pytz? | 18:42 |
| alga | zoneinfo for python, basically | 18:43 |
| alga | python modules for different timezones, and such | 18:43 |
| th1a | Are there licensing questions? | 18:43 |
| alga | yes | 18:43 |
| bskahan | its bsd lisenced, iirc | 18:43 |
| alga | it is GPL AFAIR | 18:43 |
| alga | ah, ok | 18:43 |
| tvon | I don't see a debian package either | 18:44 |
| alga | License | 18:44 |
| alga | MIT license. I'm happy to relicense this code if necessary for inclusion in other open source projects. | 18:44 |
| alga | -- http://pytz.sourceforge.net/ | 18:44 |
| tvon | promising... | 18:44 |
| th1a | MIT license is fine, right? Doesn't it allow commercial distribution? | 18:45 |
| tvon | yeah | 18:45 |
| mgedmin | MIT is essenially the same thing as BSD without the problematic adverisement clause, isn't it? | 18:45 |
| th1a | So do we want to use it? | 18:46 |
| alga | true | 18:46 |
| tvon | similar to BSD or X11 I believe | 18:46 |
| alga | right | 18:46 |
| tvon | jinty: does this complicate things for Debian packaging? | 18:47 |
| alga | we've used it for our other project | 18:47 |
| bskahan | how do we want to deal with packaging | 18:47 |
| alga | we included it in our repo | 18:47 |
| bskahan | since its not in ubuntu (or probably debian) | 18:47 |
| alga | but is comes with thousands of files | 18:47 |
| jinty | I am searching now for what is happening with it in debian... | 18:48 |
| * tvon nods | 18:48 | |
| alga | jinty: could you please package it :) | 18:48 |
| alga | pleeease :) | 18:48 |
| tvon | heh | 18:48 |
| jinty | depends on how complex it is!!! | 18:48 |
| tvon | sissy | 18:48 |
| bskahan | ;) | 18:48 |
| gintas | well, it's just a library | 18:48 |
| * jinty is scared of thousands of files | 18:48 | |
| alga | more, they're mostly autogenerated | 18:49 |
| tvon | Think of them as hugs, not files | 18:49 |
| alga | out of zoneinfo | 18:49 |
| gintas | jinty, don't worry, the files are small | 18:49 |
| jinty | autogenerated!!! | 18:49 |
| tvon | heh | 18:49 |
| jinty | what type of files are they? | 18:49 |
| alga | python modules | 18:50 |
| jinty | please tell me I don't have to torture another setup.py script | 18:50 |
| alga | maybe the default one will do? | 18:50 |
| alga | it looks like a reasonable well-behaved python package | 18:51 |
| jinty | OK OK!!! I'll have a look. | 18:51 |
| alga | and Stuart Bishop is a cool goy | 18:51 |
| * mgedmin thinks jinty is a hero | 18:51 | |
| * jinty is just overwhelmed by the IRC flood | 18:51 | |
| alga | back on topic | 18:52 |
| alga | do we want pytz? | 18:52 |
| jinty | I'll add having a look at it on to my TODO list... | 18:52 |
| alga | I think the answer is: | 18:52 |
| alga | we don't have an alternative | 18:52 |
| jinty | but it will take a few months to get into debian... | 18:52 |
| alga | switching timezones +0200 -> +0300 and back twice a year sucks | 18:53 |
| alga | we can include it for a while | 18:53 |
| alga | until it is in Debian | 18:53 |
| mgedmin | as a stopgap measure we could distribute pytz in /usr/lib/schooltool in our debs, couldn't we? | 18:54 |
| gintas | do we want to be friendly only to debian? | 18:54 |
| bskahan | do you want to add it to the top level of the tree, schooltool/pytz like schooltool/Zope3 | 18:54 |
| * jinty starts to cry | 18:54 | |
| mgedmin | there, there | 18:54 |
| tvon | heh | 18:54 |
| mgedmin | pytz lives in CVS, so we can't use svn:externals :-/ | 18:55 |
| * stockholm compforts jinty | 18:55 | |
| bskahan | everytime you mess with jinty's tree, god kills a kitten | 18:55 |
| jinty | Yay, CVS directories in trunk! | 18:55 |
| jinty | more inconsistencies between the tarballs and trunk | 18:56 |
| gintas | why CVS rather than a release? | 18:56 |
| tvon | release methinks | 18:56 |
| mgedmin | we could make pytz an optional dependency | 18:56 |
| tvon | without it everything is UTC? | 18:57 |
| jinty | btw: including outside libraries in the trunk is VERY bad for security support. especially if they are random CVS versions. | 18:57 |
| gintas | or naive timezones (+0200, +0300, etc.)? | 18:57 |
| mgedmin | if it is not installed, we show a very short drop-down in the configuration, that only contains "UTC" and "Custom"; "Custom" lets you enter your UTC offset | 18:57 |
| * jinty goes to find out what is happening with pytz | 18:58 | |
| alga | sounds like a sane approach | 18:58 |
| gintas | by the way, there is not much time left | 18:58 |
| gintas | (for the meeting, I mean) | 18:58 |
| * mgedmin nods | 18:58 | |
| th1a | Right. | 18:58 |
| tvon | mhm...anything for 0.9? | 18:58 |
| bskahan | mgedmin: the user would be responsible for switching daylight savings etc., in that case? | 18:58 |
| th1a | Nothing has come up for 0.9. | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | I wanted to try migrating calendar.pov.lt to 0.9, but I hadn't done that yet | 18:59 |
| jinty | I got no e-mails, do 0.9 will be the same as 0.9rc2 | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | bskahan, yes | 18:59 |
| jinty | s/do/so | 18:59 |
| bskahan | jinty: yes | 18:59 |
| jinty | and will be released tomorrow. | 19:00 |
| th1a | So... I think the most important thing now is for Etria to focus on doing some extremely correct test driven work on the SchoolBell directory. | 19:00 |
| * bskahan nods | 19:00 | |
| th1a | We need to build confidence. | 19:00 |
| bskahan | we're going to do event descriptions and preferences first | 19:01 |
| bskahan | try to shake out pytz questions | 19:01 |
| th1a | OK. | 19:01 |
| th1a | Sounds good. | 19:01 |
| th1a | It's very important that you don't piss off the Lithuanians. | 19:02 |
| alga | ;-] | 19:02 |
| tvon | we don't need any international incidents | 19:02 |
| mgedmin | don't worry, that old icbm in our basement probably wouldn' | 19:03 |
| th1a | You'll only be allowed to touch files ending with .pt or .html | 19:03 |
| mgedmin | oops | 19:03 |
| bskahan | heh | 19:03 |
| th1a | And on that note... | 19:03 |
| th1a | I think we're done. | 19:03 |
| tvon | aight | 19:04 |
| th1a | jinty: We should set a time to talk about timetabling. How's Thursday? | 19:04 |
| jinty | I can't think of any problems with it right now. | 19:04 |
| th1a | What time would be good for you? | 19:04 |
| jinty | The same time as this meeting is quite perfect. | 19:05 |
| th1a | OK. It's a date. | 19:05 |
| stockholm | do you do weekly meeting? | 19:05 |
| jinty | OK. Great. | 19:05 |
| stockholm | meetings? | 19:05 |
| th1a | Yeah. This time weekly. | 19:06 |
| stockholm | neat | 19:06 |
| th1a | We're getting better at communicating. | 19:06 |
| * th1a goes for lunch. | 19:07 | |
| stockholm | debconf has monthly meetings | 19:10 |
| * jinty loves debconf | 19:13 | |
| stockholm | jinty: i meant debconf5, the debian conference. | 19:13 |
| stockholm | it is even better then the program | 19:13 |
| jinty | ah, the organization commitee | 19:14 |
| stockholm | yes | 19:14 |
| * jinty would really like to go to debconf5 | 19:14 | |
| jinty | sigh | 19:14 |
| stockholm | jinty: and? | 19:15 |
| stockholm | jinty: i would hit on mark to sponsor your trip | 19:15 |
| stockholm | jinty: your stay would be free. | 19:15 |
| stockholm | food and stuff | 19:15 |
| jinty | sounds very interesting. I think I will give it a try and see what happens... | 19:17 |
| jinty | I realized how important conferences were at mataro. | 19:17 |
| stockholm | we aim at better food, too | 19:18 |
| jinty | Who does the cooking? | 19:18 |
| jinty | the developers? | 19:19 |
| stockholm | jinty: we expect 200+ people. you would need a real professional kitchen | 19:20 |
| stockholm | we will have rooms with kitchens, as far as i know | 19:20 |
| stockholm | but we will likely order food from a catering service | 19:20 |
| jinty | I thought it might have been interesting to see what gets cooked. The image of some of the people i met at mataro arguing over a stove makes me smile. | 19:22 |
| * bskahan ponders test-driven cooking | 19:23 | |
| jinty | :) | 19:24 |
| alga | eat the dish, then cook it | 19:24 |
| alga | taste the water | 19:24 |
| alga | add salt | 19:24 |
| alga | taste again | 19:24 |
| alga | ... | 19:24 |
| mgedmin | taste the raw dish | 19:24 |
| mgedmin | write "cook it" to the recipy | 19:24 |
| mgedmin | recipe | 19:24 |
| mgedmin | taste again | 19:24 |
| mgedmin | write "less salt" to the recipe | 19:24 |
| * jinty sends an e-mail to stuart bishop | 19:33 | |
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| * bskahan notices r2753 | 20:34 | |
| bskahan | what's the correct way to run tests for schoolbell | 20:34 |
| jinty | anyone feeling noce today tell me a better way of s/value/value2/ on a file in python than read_to_string, regex, write_to_file? | 20:38 |
| mgedmin | bskahan, ./test.py -pv schoolbell | 20:39 |
| bskahan | mgedmin: ok, that's what I thought | 20:39 |
| bskahan | just making sure | 20:39 |
| mgedmin | jinty, read_to_string, string.replace('value', 'value2'), write_to_file | 20:39 |
| jinty | thanks... | 20:39 |
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| tvon | for preferences annotation keys: I've seen suggestions to use module-esque keys. I'm thinking "schooltool.app.person.preferences.timezone".. make sense or too verbose? | 21:39 |
| tvon | its not a real module path of course | 21:40 |
| mgedmin | do you want to store each preference in a separate annotation? | 21:41 |
| mgedmin | I imagined something like IUserPreferences(person).timezone | 21:41 |
| mgedmin | where there is an adapter IPerson -> IUserPreferences | 21:42 |
| mgedmin | that returns IAnnotations(person)['schoolbell.app.preferences'] | 21:42 |
| mgedmin | look at the IRelationshipLinks adapter in schoolbell.relationship.annotatable | 21:42 |
| tvon | ah, okay | 21:42 |
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| th1a | My Zope 3 Developer's Handbook just arrived. | 22:12 |
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