IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-02-07

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stockholmis Brian here?15:30
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jintyhoi stockholm, you wanted to speak to me ?17:46
stockholmjinty: i just wanted to tell you that i had even more health issues.17:47
stockholmjinty: and wanted to beg you pardon that i did not yet upload your package17:47
jintyplease, no worries. I saw that you were not active on any lists and thought there was something a little more serious17:48
stockholmjinty: my son had 40°C fever from monday to saturday17:48
stockholmnow he got diarria and barfs.17:48
jintyouch! Oh my gosh, the joys of children17:48
stockholmwhat is the proper name for "barfing"?17:49
* stockholm remebers that word...17:49
jintybut there are more than one kind, for instance projectile vomiting17:49
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jintyperhaps, if he gets sick enough when he is young, he will be immune later. You can hope at least17:53
stockholmjinty: that is what people say, yes. it is workout for the immune system17:54
stockholmbtw: cerebrum is python. lots of it.17:54
stockholmis anyone here bored? i think those guys need some help.17:55
stockholmwell, debian-edu would, to get cerebrum in debian-edu off the ground17:55
th1aWhat do they need help with?17:55
th1aModeling the education stuff?17:55
stockholmth1a: they have for every institution (and its infrastructure) forked a couple of files17:56
th1aWhat do you mean?17:57
stockholmth1a: and one needs to reinplement parts from scratch to adjust it17:57
stockholmth1a: there is the university in oslo, UiO.17:57
stockholmthey have one version of the commands which can be executed in the client17:58
stockholmthen there are HiA, and 5 other universities forking that same file17:58
stockholminstead of making stuff properly configureable.17:58
th1aIt is all LDAP stuff?17:59
stockholmat present there is no way to configure this.17:59
stockholmno, this is not ldap specific17:59
stockholmit is postgresql based, and can export to different frontend directories18:00
th1aDo they have a mailing list?18:00
th1aHm... what do I need to do to susbscribe?18:02
stockholm-developers is kind of dead, while -commits is kind of lifely18:02
stockholmi would have tried to send mail to -developers-request or -help18:03
th1aOK.  I'll give that a shot.18:03
th1aAll right, I should start our meeting...18:04
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jintystockholm: tomorrow is the day for 0.9 packages if all goes well...18:04
th1aThe most pressing problem that seems to require discussion between the two teams is the sequencing of work on the current contracts,18:05
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th1abecause a lot of Etria's work depends on when POV gets things done.18:05
th1aBut tvon and bskahan have been thinking about this in more detail than me.18:06
tvonThere are three key items here:18:07
tvonAll day events, event descriptions, free busy information..merge event and booking forms...18:07
tvonokay, 4 key items18:07
tvonand time zones18:08
tvonTZ config was left with the notion that POV had to do something in the base system before we could do it on the users end of things18:08
mgedminall day events are trickiest, I think18:08
tvonYeah, I'm not sure how they will work.  IIRC the last point on that was that POV was going to poke it with a stick18:09
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tvonHows calendar work going?18:12
th1aSo for all-day events and timezones Etria would be doing the UI work and POV doing the back-end as they migrate to Zope 3, right?18:12
bskahanwhat if we change dtstart to dstart/tstart18:12
tvonth1a: right18:13
th1aSo Etria needs an estimate of when the back end work will be done, unless there is some way they can mock up the UI work without the back end working.18:14
tvonwe can do the bare essentials...namely the screen where the user chooses the preferences18:14
th1aComments from Vilnius?18:16
bskahanwe can do the backend work as well, but got the impression marius wanted to look at it first18:17
th1abskahan: I was just thinking that would make sense.18:17
tvonyeah, I'm fine with that18:17
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th1a*tap* *tap*  Is this thing on?18:20
algaMarius is delivering an animaded show about why he is offline18:21
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mgedminaarg, some stale dhclient decided my lease has expired18:21
mgedminand I was wondering why everyone was so quiet18:22
* mgedmin looking at logs18:22
algabasically, we're overwhelmed with refitting the existing functionality to work in Zope 318:24
algaand thinking about new stuff seems weird and difficult :-)18:24
th1aI'd imagine.18:25
th1aOK, so perhaps we should assume that Etria is going to handle all of the all-day events implementation.18:25
bskahanwe're happy to do the new work, just not sure where in your work it fits18:25
algatvon, bskahan: do you think you can do test-first development?18:26
bskahanex., merging the booking/event forms in the UI can't happen without bookings ;)18:26
th1aWorking on the active Zope 3 branch will require more rigorous testing, since all kinds of changes will be going on at the same time (I imagine).18:27
bskahanalga: yes, had planned to try the ping -pong pair programming because it fits with my malicious streak.18:27
th1aIt seems like test-first is easier with doctests.18:28
th1aMore natural.18:28
algawell, yes18:28
algait's less of a syntactic challenge18:29
algato think of it, is a separate sub-langugage18:29
th1aYeah.  It is a bit much for an amateur like me.18:29
algabut the idea is the same -- to express your design decisions in the tests18:30
th1aSo... timezones.18:30
th1aActually, let's think about this.18:31
th1aWhat's the best way to ease Etria into working on the Zope 3 bits?18:31
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algaI think it would be best if Etria would work on the schoolbell package18:32
algathe core calendaring functionality is almost there18:32
algawe're actively developing it, so I hope it would imply more peer-review18:33
algaI'm quite bad at reading diffs, you know18:33
th1aWhat about adding event descriptions?18:33
th1aThat sounds pretty straightforward.18:33
gintasat the moment we have the calendar views, more or less18:34
gintasbut the event editing form is not yet done, deleting too18:34
gintaswe have r/o access only at the moment18:34
th1aI guess adding user preferences isn't dependent on calendaring being ready.18:35
tvonnah, user preferences are pretty straightforward18:35
gintaswe could of course modify the backend to accommodate event descriptions and the main views too18:35
algaare we going to put them in annotations?18:35
mgedminevent descriptions are data18:36
tvonpreferences = annotations18:36
bskahanalga: preferencses? that wast the plan18:36
mgedminoh, preferences18:36
mgedmininterleaved conversations are fun18:36
algawe need an adapter request -> person18:36
tvonthreading issues18:36
mgedminI'm pretty sure the backend does not need any changes to support timezones (since all conversion between UTC and user's tz will be done in views)18:37
tvonWe do need to make sure the server stores it in UTC, don't we?18:38
algawe'll just assume that all the internal times are UTC18:38
bskahanno, need a sitewide preference for the server offset18:38
tvoneg if the server itself is set to EST or some other TZ?18:38
mgedminimport datetime18:38
mgedminwe don't care about the server's timezone18:38
algaall day events are tricky though18:39
algaI guess we'll have to special case them everywere18:39
bskahanearly comment got lost.  what about breaking dtstart into dstart and tstart components18:40
algamurky still18:40
bskahanall day events dont have a time start18:40
alga23:00 in london is 3:00 AM in Moscow18:40
algadifferent dates18:40
mgedminbskahan, I do not think it gives us anything18:40
gintaswe could set tstart to None18:40
mgedminwe can have event.dtstart be a date instead of a datetime18:41
mgedminor we can have different event interfaces18:41
algawhat about 0:00 UTC?18:41
mgedminI suggest postponing all-day events and working on descriptions/timezones/preferences18:41
th1amgedmin:  I think that's a good idea.18:42
tvonWas there any decision on using pytz?18:42
th1aWhat's pytz?18:42
algazoneinfo for python, basically18:43
algapython modules for different timezones, and such18:43
th1aAre there licensing questions?18:43
bskahanits bsd lisenced, iirc18:43
algait is GPL AFAIR18:43
algaah, ok18:43
tvonI don't see a debian package either18:44
algaMIT license. I'm happy to relicense this code if necessary for inclusion in other open source projects.18:44
alga --
th1aMIT license is fine, right?  Doesn't it allow commercial distribution?18:45
mgedminMIT is essenially the same thing as BSD without the problematic adverisement clause, isn't it?18:45
th1aSo do we want to use it?18:46
tvonsimilar to BSD or X11 I believe18:46
tvonjinty: does this complicate things for Debian packaging?18:47
algawe've used it for our other project18:47
bskahanhow do we want to deal with packaging18:47
algawe included it in our repo18:47
bskahansince its not in ubuntu (or probably debian)18:47
algabut is comes with thousands of files18:47
jintyI am searching now for what is happening with it in debian...18:48
* tvon nods18:48
algajinty: could you please package it :)18:48
algapleeease :)18:48
jintydepends on how complex it is!!!18:48
gintaswell, it's just a library18:48
* jinty is scared of thousands of files18:48
algamore, they're mostly autogenerated18:49
tvonThink of them as hugs, not files18:49
algaout of zoneinfo18:49
gintasjinty, don't worry, the files are small18:49
jintywhat type of files are they?18:49
algapython modules18:50
jintyplease tell me I don't have to torture another script18:50
algamaybe the default one will do?18:50
algait looks like a reasonable well-behaved python package18:51
jintyOK OK!!! I'll have a look.18:51
algaand Stuart Bishop is a cool goy18:51
* mgedmin thinks jinty is a hero18:51
* jinty is just overwhelmed by the IRC flood18:51
algaback on topic18:52
algado we want pytz?18:52
jintyI'll add having a look at it on to my TODO list...18:52
algaI think the answer is:18:52
algawe don't have an alternative18:52
jintybut it will take a few months to get into debian...18:52
algaswitching timezones +0200 -> +0300 and back twice a year sucks18:53
algawe can include it for a while18:53
algauntil it is in Debian18:53
mgedminas a stopgap measure we could distribute pytz in /usr/lib/schooltool in our debs, couldn't we?18:54
gintasdo we want to be friendly only to debian?18:54
bskahando you want to add it to the top level of the tree, schooltool/pytz like schooltool/Zope318:54
* jinty starts to cry18:54
mgedminthere, there18:54
mgedminpytz lives in CVS, so we can't use svn:externals :-/18:55
* stockholm compforts jinty 18:55
bskahaneverytime you mess with jinty's tree, god kills a kitten18:55
jintyYay, CVS directories in trunk!18:55
jintymore inconsistencies between the tarballs and trunk18:56
gintaswhy CVS rather than a release?18:56
tvonrelease methinks18:56
mgedminwe could make pytz an optional dependency18:56
tvonwithout it everything is UTC?18:57
jintybtw: including outside libraries in the trunk is VERY bad for security support. especially if they are random CVS versions.18:57
gintasor naive timezones (+0200, +0300, etc.)?18:57
mgedminif it is not installed, we show a very short drop-down in the configuration, that only contains "UTC" and "Custom"; "Custom" lets you enter your UTC offset18:57
* jinty goes to find out what is happening with pytz18:58
algasounds like a sane approach18:58
gintasby the way, there is not much time left18:58
gintas(for the meeting, I mean)18:58
* mgedmin nods18:58
tvonmhm...anything for 0.9?18:58
bskahanmgedmin: the user would be responsible for switching daylight savings etc., in that case?18:58
th1aNothing has come up for 0.9.18:59
mgedminI wanted to try migrating to 0.9, but I hadn't done that yet18:59
jintyI got no e-mails, do 0.9 will be the same as 0.9rc218:59
mgedminbskahan, yes18:59
bskahanjinty: yes18:59
jintyand will be released tomorrow.19:00
th1aSo... I think the most important thing now is for Etria to focus on doing some extremely correct test driven work on the SchoolBell directory.19:00
* bskahan nods19:00
th1aWe need to build confidence.19:00
bskahanwe're going to do event descriptions and preferences first19:01
bskahantry to shake out pytz questions19:01
th1aSounds good.19:01
th1aIt's very important that you don't piss off the Lithuanians.19:02
tvonwe don't need any international incidents19:02
mgedmindon't worry, that old icbm in our basement probably wouldn'19:03
th1aYou'll only be allowed to touch files ending with .pt or .html19:03
th1aAnd on that note...19:03
th1aI think we're done.19:03
th1ajinty:  We should set a time to talk about timetabling.  How's Thursday?19:04
jintyI can't think of any problems with it right now.19:04
th1aWhat time would be good for you?19:04
jintyThe same time as this meeting is quite perfect.19:05
th1aOK.  It's a date.19:05
stockholmdo you do weekly meeting?19:05
jintyOK. Great.19:05
th1aYeah.  This time weekly.19:06
th1aWe're getting better at communicating.19:06
* th1a goes for lunch.19:07
stockholmdebconf has monthly meetings19:10
* jinty loves debconf19:13
stockholmjinty: i meant debconf5, the debian conference.19:13
stockholmit is even better then the program19:13
jintyah, the organization commitee19:14
* jinty would really like to go to debconf519:14
stockholmjinty: and?19:15
stockholmjinty: i would hit on mark to sponsor your trip19:15
stockholmjinty: your stay would be free.19:15
stockholmfood and stuff19:15
jintysounds very interesting. I think I will give it a try and see what happens...19:17
jintyI realized how important conferences were at mataro.19:17
stockholmwe aim at better food, too19:18
jintyWho does the cooking?19:18
jintythe developers?19:19
stockholmjinty: we expect 200+ people. you would need a real professional kitchen19:20
stockholmwe will have rooms with kitchens, as far as i know19:20
stockholmbut we will likely order food from a catering service19:20
jintyI thought it might have been interesting to see what gets cooked. The image of some of the people i met at mataro arguing over a stove makes me smile.19:22
* bskahan ponders test-driven cooking19:23
algaeat the dish, then cook it19:24
algataste the water19:24
algaadd salt19:24
algataste again19:24
mgedmintaste the raw dish19:24
mgedminwrite "cook it" to the recipy19:24
mgedmintaste again19:24
mgedminwrite "less salt" to the recipe19:24
* jinty sends an e-mail to stuart bishop19:33
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bskahanwhat's the correct way to run tests for schoolbell20:34
jintyanyone feeling noce today tell me a better way of s/value/value2/ on a file in python than read_to_string, regex, write_to_file?20:38
mgedminbskahan, ./ -pv schoolbell20:39
bskahanmgedmin: ok, that's what I thought20:39
bskahanjust making sure20:39
mgedminjinty, read_to_string, string.replace('value', 'value2'), write_to_file20:39
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tvonfor preferences annotation keys: I've seen suggestions to use module-esque keys.  I'm thinking "".. make sense or too verbose?21:39
tvonits not a real module path of course21:40
mgedmindo you want to store each preference in a separate annotation?21:41
mgedminI imagined something like IUserPreferences(person).timezone21:41
mgedminwhere there is an adapter IPerson -> IUserPreferences21:42
mgedminthat returns IAnnotations(person)['']21:42
mgedminlook at the IRelationshipLinks adapter in schoolbell.relationship.annotatable21:42
tvon ah, okay21:42
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th1aMy Zope 3 Developer's Handbook just arrived.22:12
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