IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-01-31

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bskahan20 hours later, migration works09:42
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th1aSorry I didn't send out an agenda for today's meeting.  I got a little depressed last night because it is exactly the same as last week's :-(17:23
* bskahan nods17:24
bskahanwe can probably keep the meeting very short17:25
th1aWe do need to finalize the 1.0 features that you guys are going to start working on.17:25
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bskahanI think we're pretty clear what they are, with the one question being who's doing timezones.  Tom's writing ours up now17:29
th1aWriting your proposal?17:29
th1aOK.  Super.17:29
jintybskahan: See you managed to turn theory into practice:) Should I be going and releasing now?17:33
bskahanyes, rc2 from 261317:35
bskahanI'll send you a signed mail17:35
bskahandatabase compatibility sucks17:35
jintygood that we got some practice in before 1.0 then17:36
th1aYeah, this is exactly the experience I had last year when I upgraded my assessment application.17:36
th1aI thought I had a week's worth of work total, with a day for db migration.17:36
th1adb migration took the whole week.17:36
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jintybskahan: last question for the release notes, what db objects are upgraded?17:41
tvonDo we have an RPM packager?17:41
tvonokay, I can do that17:41
tvonneed to setup a chroot...I guess Fedora?17:41
th1aFedora would be good, because K12LTSP is based on Fedora.17:42
tvonah, okay17:42
th1aI'm mostly worried about getting into K12LTSP.17:42
bskahanfedora only unless someone wants to pick up a copy of AES or whatever the commercial grade is now17:42
th1aFedora is fine.17:42
bskahank12 is a good goal, I wonder what the fedora contributor process is looking like now.  I know there were some issues with it for a while17:43
th1aI'll send an email to the K12LTSP maintainer.  He can probably give us some advice.17:44
th1aI'll cc: you guys.17:45
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th1atvon:  How's that proposal coming?18:00
tvonth1a: It's basically everything on the 1.0 list that isn't debian packaging or being done by POV18:01
th1aCan you send it to us so we can discuss it?18:01
th1aOK, let's start the "formal meeting."18:04
th1aAs I mentioned earlier, this week's agenda is pretty much the same as last week's.18:04
tvonth1a: it's basically just a list at the moment18:04
th1aCan you send it to me and all@pov?  Or put it somewhere?18:05
th1aWe just need something to look at.18:05
tvongimme a minute.  I'm going off of
th1aSo agenda item 1. is 0.9 rc2.  Anything else to do?18:06
th1ajinty is going to start packaging?18:06
th1aAgenda item 2. is 1.0 planning.18:07
tvonBrian sent the rc2 'okay' email... which was related to the migration being completed, is there anything else?18:07
jintyas soon as I get the mail from brian skahan and finish the release notes18:07
tvonjinty: it's "in the mail"18:08
th1amgedmin:  Did you make a decision about trying to fold the timezone work into the Z3 migration?18:08
jintyI'll branch and do quite a bit of testing...18:08
mgedminumm, I got into schoolbell hacking so much that I forgot to allocate some time explicitly for looking into timezones last week18:10
mgedminI think we should do timezone support in the backend18:10
mgedminnot sure about the UI18:10
th1aYou mean, let Etria do the UI?18:10
mgedminif they want it18:11
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tvonWhatever lets POV focus on Z3 work18:11
th1aThat sounds like a reasonable division of labor.18:11
algasorry I'm late18:12
th1aalga:  hi18:12
th1amgedmin:  How was your birthday, by the way?18:12
SteveAthat's the badger18:12
mgedminwe played cambridge standard five card mao during my birthday18:13
mgedminno, mao18:13
SteveAin mao, the stakes are higher, and there are rarely any losers.18:14
* tvon googles18:14
th1aThat sounds like a good system.18:14
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th1aOK, so we're going to start storing all times as UTC?18:15
th1aAnd keeping track of the timezone of the user.18:16
tvonare we going with the "just convert times in in the UI" method?18:17
th1aEtria will have to plan on doing the UI work after you've changed the backend, right?18:18
tvonwe can stick it at the end of our work18:19
tvonz3 question about user configuration information... should we create an annotation on users to store this stuff?18:21
mgedminit think that sounds right18:22
tvon..  We will also be moving notes to annotations in this contract I think, unless that is a problem.18:22
mgedminwill schoolbell 1.0 have notes?18:23
tvonhrm, good point18:23
th1aI really want notes.18:23
tvonI could see a use for them, I don't know how important it is18:24
th1aHere's the thing about notes...18:24
tvonI really want to redo them anyways.18:24
th1aaside from the fact that they are useful,18:24
th1awe're putting a lot of investment into the concept of REST API's,18:24
th1aso I think we should also support relevant existing REST API's.18:25
th1aSort of make a point of doing so.18:25
th1aBecause right now, we've got this web services API that connects to nothing, so it will be very difficult to demonstrate to anyone how it might be useful.18:26
th1aIn short, I need this for demos.18:26
mgedmintvon, you said once you had some ideas for client-side javascript scripting with our REST views18:27
mgedminor was it bskahan?18:27
th1aThat is, I need notes to work with the Atom publishing API over REST.18:27
tvonmgedmin: yeah, XmlHttpRequest work...ala gmail18:27
* mgedmin nods18:27
gintasby the way, how do I use notes in the current interface18:27
tvonquery the restive backend and reload a fragment of the document..  gives it more of an "application" feel18:27
mgedmin1) I'm not sure it makes sense to make SchoolBell's REST API 100% compatible with SchoolTool's REST API -- the domain is different18:28
mgedmin2) we will have some sort of RESTive API in SchoolBell 1.018:28
Vobliawoudl tying schoolbell to javascript be a good idea ?18:28
mgedminJavaScript as a requirement: absolute no18:28
mgedminJavaScript as an optional enhancement: sure, why not?18:28
th1aWe also have to remember accessibility issues.18:29
tvonI need to read up on 50818:29
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Vobliawell XmlHttpRequest stuff is not the function that has 100% support even among GUI browsers18:29
tvonno, it certainly does not18:30
mgedminas long as it degrades gracefully, and works on Firefox + latest MSIE, I'm happy18:30
tvonIt's in (I believe) all the latest release of the major browsers18:30
Vobliawell as long as you are aware about it i can sleep well ;)18:30
tvonfirefox, opera (maybe just the last beta), konq, safari, ie18:30
th1aI don't see legacy browser support as a big issue.18:31
th1aAnyone can get Firefox 1.0 for free...18:31
Vobliai see the logic to switch between the xmlhttpreqwuest heavy version and plain html version as an issue18:31
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Vobliaare we going to deteck the browser in the serverside and uise diffrent templates or is it all going to be on the JS side ?18:33
mgedmin has a nice graph of firefox downloads18:34
tvonThere are places in the UI where we can use it and fail gracefully if it is not there.18:34
th1aWe just need to be prudent about where we use it.18:34
tvonThe first place to work it into the UI would be any sort of search form, like searching for users.  We can auto-complete (ala Google Suggest) if the ability is there or just do nothing if it is not18:34
th1aIt'll be useful for gradebook.  Things like that.18:35
mgedminI suggest that we stop talking about javascript us now and proceed with the meeting18:35
tvonWe cannot do a full-on XmlHttpRequest UI in the core system..not without giving someone a massive headache I think18:35
tvonyeah, +1 mgedmin18:35
tvonIt's not this contract anyways18:36
th1aYes.  Sorry.  Not much else to talk about...18:36
th1aSo refactoring notes.18:36
th1aAny comments or questions on that?18:36
mgedminI have no objections to having notes in schoolbell18:36
mgedminespecially if etria does all the work ;)18:37
th1aWill they be annotations?18:37
tvonI'm game18:37
mgedminit makes sense to make them annotations18:37
tvonThere are a few other items that I think Etria will be doing for this run, let me shoot them out18:38
tvonI'm basically going off of here18:38
tvonI'm also going off of the assumption that POV is doing Z3 migratiion + tz backend18:39
tvon1: event descriptions18:39
tvonSeems pretty simple.. comments?18:39
mgedmindifficult to do before we integrate calendars with the zope3-based schoolbell18:40
mgedminotherwise, pretty simple18:40
tvonShould etria put it at the end of the contract?18:40
tvonscheduling wise18:40
mgedminwhat is the scope of the contract (timewise)?18:41
tvongood question actually, are we doing 1 or 2 more contracts before the 1.0?18:41
th1aI'm thinking one.18:42
tvonI actually don't know if we discussed this, I just assumed there was going to be 1 long contract till 1.018:42
tvonso, march?  Do we have a date?18:42
th1aJust a sec... the dog and the cat just had a little encounter.18:42
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th1aMy officemates.18:43
tvonBrian's dog is always fouling up TPS reports18:43
tvondumb dog18:43
th1aWe want to finish coding on SB 1.0 during Feburary.18:44
tvonah, okay18:44
th1aAnd we should be conservative in our estimates.18:44
th1aThat's a hard deadline.18:44
* jinty pricks up his ears18:45
tvonfeb 28th for 1.0 rc?18:45
jintyI'm thinking of a time based release.18:45
th1aTime based?18:45
gintaswe release what we've got at the moment?18:46
th1aYou mean, by that date, whatever is done?18:46
jintyyes, unless some act of nature comes by18:46
th1aI'd agree.18:46
gintasshouldn't be a problem if we keep our stories short18:46
jintythere will be some critical features though, which we should define and get done early18:47
jintydb upgrades come to mind18:47
th1aWhat needs to be done for that?18:47
th1aZ3 generations?18:48
tvonOur storage doesnt mesh with the normal z3 data.fs does it?18:48
* mgedmin thinks18:48
mgedminif we want to be able to access old Data.fs files, we need to have Python modules called '', '' etc.18:49
mgedminotherwise unpickling will fail18:49
mgedminhowever, distributing src/schooltool with schoolbell 1.0 seems... wrong18:49
* tvon anticipates exciting migration scripts18:49
gintasI don't think we can use generations with older database18:50
* mgedmin too18:50
th1aWell, I guess we'll have to plan on spending the last week on that :-(18:50
th1aI don't think we can do it first.18:51
gintasbasically you have to register a SchemaManager that will put a mark on the ZODB that now the DB is at generation 018:51
gintasonly then later versions will be able to upgrade the database18:51
mgedminwe have a dogfood server running 0.8 + some patches18:52
mgedminI hope we'll be able to upgrade it to 0.9 soon18:52
gintaswe could probably add the mark in a hacky way18:52
mgedminthen we will have incentive to find an upgrade solution for 1.018:52
gintasanyway, whoever does the upgrade might find some generations facilities in zope3 useful (such as searching the DB for objects of a specific type)18:53
tvonIf we have the last week dedicated to figuring out migration, that leaves 3 weeks of other work18:53
th1awhoever = etria18:53
jintycould we try to det the db migration mostly done asap?18:54
tvoncan we?18:55
th1aI guess we could do most of it, couldn't we.18:55
jintyal least in a way to find out what issues can come up. as it can block rekeases18:55
th1aWe just can't migrate the new features--descriptions, etc, until they're done.18:55
* mgedmin confused18:55
mgedminare we talking about 0.8 -> 0.9 or 0.9 -> 1.0 now?18:55
tvonBefore we decide that, let's solidify what Etria will be doing18:55
* th1a is probably more confused.18:56
th1aWe're talking about 0.9 > 1.018:56
* jinty is probably tierd after the weekend18:56
tvonNotes refactoring, TZ ui are set.  There is mention of other UI work such as "week start day" and "time formatting"18:56
tvontime formattiong I think is relatively simple, week start day I'm not sure about but I'm pretty sure its just some UI conditionals18:57
th1aDo you need further explanation about that?18:57
tvonany comments on those?18:57
gintasthat is in the same bag as timezones18:57
gintasI mean timezones UI18:57
tvonwoah, I just lagged18:57
tvondamn coffee shop wifi18:57
* mgedmin notes that the meeting ought to end in 2 minutes18:58
th1aAllright.  I was thinking exactly the same thing.18:58
th1atick, tick, tick... anything else?18:58
mgedminI will try to expedite db upgrading issues soon18:58
tvonDid my "solidifying what etria needs to do" stuff get through?18:58
mgedminhaving a 0.9 release with db upgrade support from 0.8 would help immensely18:58
* jinty is confused18:59
mgedmintvon, I think so18:59
tvonBrian committed the last migration bits, it should be tagged as an RC and tested I think18:59
th1a0.9 has our "minimal" upgrade support.18:59
* mgedmin will look18:59
mgedminok, then19:00
mgedminwhen you're done with 0.9, I suggest you take a look at the new zope3-based schoolbell19:00
jintytvon:s/should be/has/19:00
mgedminget it running, play with it19:00
tvonjinty: ah, cool19:00
mgedmininstructions are in src/schoolbell/app/README.txt19:01
tvonWhat about all day events?19:01
tvonand merging event/booking forms?19:01
tvonas in "whats the priority for 1.0?"19:01
th1aThat's high.19:01
th1aThat's a pretty key UI element that's just not quite right.19:01
th1aOK.  Official meeting is over.19:02
th1aYou're dismissed.19:02
tvonIs that UI work?  Event's have the capability of lasting all day, is there anything else in the backend that is needed for this?19:02
* mgedmin about to have an enforced 3 minute break19:02
gintasthe important things (database upgrading, schoolbell) are longish19:02
mgedmintvon, an all-day event is different from an event that starts at midnight and lasts for 24 hours19:02
mgedminespecially when timezones come to play19:03
tvonmgedmin: ah, okay19:03
gintasmaybe we could just postpone those things as extras and implement them if we have time, as jinty suggested19:03
mgedmininternally I hope we can implement those by just storing the dtstart as a instead of datetime.datetime instance19:03
* mgedmin having a breaking19:03
th1aLike, I want to mark that I'm going to be at a conference for three days but I don't really want a 72 hour event.19:03
tvonth1a: how often is planet ST updated?19:05
th1aThere is something fucked with the cron job.19:06
th1aI'm completely baffled.19:06
th1aI should just punt to your version.19:06
tvonI can paste you our cron if you'd like19:06
th1aI had another cron job that did the same thing for a different planet.19:07
th1aAnd it worked.19:07
th1aActually, I just need to read the mail cron is sending the account, but it is on a server that doesn't have pine or mutt, so I have to figure out how 'mail' works...19:07
tvonheh, 'mail', fun19:08
th1aThere's always something exciting to learn.19:08
jintyth1a: vim /var/spool/mail/user ???19:08
th1aAnyhow, almost all the features to be added to SB 1.0 is potentially expendable in a pinch.19:09
th1ajinty:  thanks.19:09
jintybut there are some blockers, which we should be careful of19:10
* jinty lets everyone know that 0.9.x is branched.19:12
tvonth1a: I'll send you some stories later today for this stuff19:12
tvonthough I'm not sure what to do about the "maybe if things go well" stuff19:13
th1aWell, send me stories and time estimates and I'll prioritize.19:13
th1aFound the problem with my Planet SchoolTool config.19:16
th1aI'm going to get a sandwich.19:16
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* tvon gives schoolbell in z3 a whirl19:52
tvonsrc/schoolbell is where all the work is going now, right?19:52
tvonneed to mark some time to deal with the additional UI components/changes from running in z319:53
mgedminwhat do you mean?19:55
tvonI'm not sure yet :)  Do we just want to hide anything new from z3?19:55
mgedminwhat do you mean by *that*?19:56
tvonoh, well metadata folder_contents views... as an example19:56
tvoner, "metadata, folder contents"19:57
mgedmincurrently all zmi_views are listed19:57
mgedminsome of them (e.g. introspector) make no sense to the casual user19:57
mgedminwe'll hide them at some point19:57
tvonI'm assuming 'no', but do we care at all about being able to add other product objects?  eg, 'File'19:58
mgedminnot in the persons container, I hope20:03
tvonspeaking of UI, need to implement some items discussed here:
tvonWe never came up with a good form UI solution for the..UI...work20:06
* tvon goes to walk a dog20:06
Vobliado we need disabled accounts ?20:11
Vobliawill anyone ever want to disable an account on purpose20:12
mgedminVoblia is talking about SchoolBell 1.020:13
Vobliadoes anybody care ? :20:24
jintythere are a lot of people walking dogs or eating sandwiches... I hope my nachos are ready soon.20:26
th1aWe definitely need it in the long run.20:27
th1aI'd say it doesn't matter much one way or the other in SchoolBell 1.0.20:27
th1aVoblia:  It would be nice if we get it over with now, but it's your call.20:29
* tvon returns20:38
jintydoes anyone else get failing unit tests, or is it just me?20:38
* mgedmin will check20:41
mgedminunit tests pass, running functional tests now20:43
mgedminall tests pass20:44
jintyhmm, I fail on
mgedminthis is schooltool trunk, revision 262420:44
jintypython 2.3?20:44
mgedminjinty, does the error message talk about expat errors and XML namespace prefixes?20:45
mgedminif so, try apt-get install python2.3-xml20:45
jintyTypeError: can't compare datetime.datetime to datetime.date20:45
jintybut then, i am using python 2.4... lets see if python 2.3 works20:46
mgedminin python2.3 you can compare datetime.datetime to, but the results are strange20:47
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* mgedmin looking at db migration code in 0.920:56
mgedmintvon, do you know the reason for "if hasattr(app['groups'], 'keys')" ?20:57
tvonmgedmin: in the migration? no20:59
tvonthat is peculiar20:59
mgedminI'm also unhappy with the 'except Exception, e: print "INFO", e' in the migration code21:01
mgedminare there any reasons why that relate function might raise an exception that needs to be suppressed?21:01
mgedminbesides, printing to stdout from a background daemon is just not nice21:02
mgedminwe have a log file for that21:02
mgedminunless this was just debugging code that should be removed21:02
* tvon looks21:02
* mgedmin sent a message to the checkins list, with code comments that should make the code easier to find21:03
tvonYeah, it should goto the log file at least.  I do recall exceptions could occour for some reason, though I don't recall what it was21:03
tvonHe should be back in an hour or two I think, I'll ask him about it21:04
mgedminACLs are not preserved, right?21:05
tvonNo, I don't believe so21:05
mgedminthat's ok21:06
mgedminI'll try to fix now21:06
mgedminjinty, I think that fix will need to be merged to the 0.9 branch21:06
jintyok, I will wait with the rc2 tag, let me know which patch21:07
mgedminhmm, it would be easier if I could reproduce the bug...21:07
* mgedmin reproduced the bug21:09
tvonth1a: After I go over time estimates I'll send you this thing, I'm not sure when he's going to show up though21:14
tvonI cant wait till we get 1.0 out the door.  I really want to play with mixing in other z3 products21:16
tvonnot that many are out there...21:16
th1aI will be very happy, too.21:16
* tvon wonders what is happening on the "standard z3 skin" front21:17
mgedminyou can start playing now21:17
tvonmgedmin: mostly time constraints right now :)21:17
mgedminoh, those21:17
th1aI need to keep playing with Stephan's message board tutorial in his book.21:18
mgedminI would like to hear some ideas how you imagine that integration would look like21:18
th1aMessage board integration?21:18
* tvon isn't sure yet21:18
mgedminnot just message board21:18
mgedmin"mixing in other z3 products"21:18
th1aRight.  I need to learn more about z3.21:19
tvonyeah, ditto21:19
th1aI'm generally quite relieved to have books to read now.21:19
th1aAnd I love doctests!21:19
th1aI heart DocTests.21:20
tvonIn terms of integration.. at some point we will start hacking on a weblog product for z3, and I'd like to be able to create events that can be treated as weblog entries in some fashion (eg, show up in the blog and allow comments/discussion)21:20
tvonI currently have very little idea how that would actually be implemented21:21
* mgedmin ♡ doctests21:21
th1amgedmin:  How did you do that?21:21
* tvon wonders how long mgedmin was looking for the ♡ character21:22
mgedminless /usr/share/i18n/UTF-821:22
mgedmingrep for HEART21:22
mgedmintype Ctrl+Shift+2661 in xchat21:23
th1aI don't know that I love unicode.21:23
mgedmin(gtk+ lets you enter any unicode character this way)21:23
th1aI have a rocky relationship with Unicode.21:23
* mgedmin ♥ unicode21:23
th1aWe're trying to work it out.21:23
mgedmintvon, was that a penguin?21:23
tvonmgedmin: something in Thai I think21:24
tvonwas a DnD from the gnome char map app21:24
th1aUnicode thinks I'm a pigheaded monolingual American redneck.21:24
tvonunicode can be snooty21:24
th1aBut I think we can work it out.  She's can be a pedantic bitch.21:24
* mgedmin wonders if irc logs can cope with this sillyness21:25
tvonspeaking of which, does anyone else get slightly garbled commit mails?21:26
tvonerm...actually now that I look they seem fine...maybe I was thinking of
tvonthough, there is a funny char in the subject line21:26
tvontween 'in' and 'repo/path/'21:27
mgedmintvon, are you using thunderbird?21:28
mgedminpersonally I consider that to be a thunderbird bug21:28
tvonI switch tween evo and tbird depending on weather or not evo works21:28
tvonbut yes, that is thunderbird21:28
mgedminit's more or less the same thing that happens when you put a line break in a title="" attribute and look at the tooltip with firefox21:28
* tvon crosses fingers and starts evo21:29
tvonwell that is lame21:29
mgedminRFC 2822 says that newline followed by a single tab or space is considered to be a single space in message headers21:29
mgedminor something to that effect21:29
mgedminhowever thunderbird actually displays the newline/tab as a strange character21:29
mgedminsomeone should file a bug report, but I don't have the time, and I don't use thunderbird21:30
tvonI'll do it!21:30
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tvonalready filed21:33
* jinty after de-bugging his testing script is ready to tag rc2.21:34
* mgedmin reproduced part of bug 165 in a unit test21:34
jintyany idea how much longer? It could still go in after rc221:35
th1aAre we planning on doing the final in a week?21:35
th1aTuesday releases?21:36
jintyA week hopefully will shake out anything major.21:36
th1aThat's fine.  Just making sure we're on the same page.21:37
jintyHopefully it's all downhill from here with 0.921:38
* mgedmin almost done with the bugfix21:42
mgedminjinty, bug 165 fixed in rev 262621:47
jintyThanks:) I'll merge the patch now.21:50
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mgedmin"bye bye I am back"?22:00
* mgedmin does not know how to decipher bbiab22:00
th1aBe Back In A Bit.22:00
th1aHere's an annoying question:22:01
th1aDo you think that in the course of moving things over to Z3 you could switch from having a single CSV import page for everything to integrating the CSV import forms into the add forms for each type of object?22:02
th1aSo that the "Add Person" page would also have the form to add people from a CSV?22:03
th1aOr does that seem undesirable?22:03
th1aOr too much bother at the moment?22:03
mgedminan interesting idea22:06
mgedminI'd prefer to defer it to a latter time22:06
mgedminit would be a nice feature, but not essential, I think22:06
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bskahangah, lost my internet connection, sorry for not participating in the meeting22:17
bskahanmgedmin: the try: except there is overzealous, I needed something in the Membership relationships because they might allready exit22:18
bskahanthose can't22:18
mgedminso it would be safe to remove try/except around calendar subscription relate-s?22:20
mgedmincould you do so?22:21
bskahandoing it now22:21
mgedminby the way, did you merge my suggested fix for calendar color assignment?22:26
mgedminthe one that I did not merge because I had no unit test22:27
bskahanI recall talking to Tom about it, and I think he did22:29
bskahanwhat did it fix?22:29
mgedminthere is a list of colors for calendars22:30
mgedminold version of the code looped through that list once and then let the view use a default color for the rest of the calendars22:30
mgedminnew version reused those colors, but only once22:31
mgedminso if you had more calendars than twice the number of colours, the rest would all get the same default code22:31
mgedminmy suggested change would reuse the colors indefinitely22:31
mgedminI sent you the diff a week or two ago22:31
* mgedmin goes to look into sent mail archives22:32
bskahanjust called tom, he didn't commit it22:34
bskahanI'll look at it now22:34
bskahansince he's away from the computer22:34
* jinty hates plone22:36
bskahanjinty: should I where should I commit bug fixes that should be in 0.9 final?22:40
jintyto the trunk, and then let me know by mail which revisions I should merge.22:42
th1amgedmin:  OK about deferring the CSV page changes.22:44
* mgedmin nods22:45
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bskahanare we planning on 100% db compatibility from 09 - 10?23:10
th1aI don't know.23:11
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