IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2005-01-21

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bskahanhow are we doing the 0.9 release wrt Zope?12:56
bskahanincluding the whole zope tree?12:56
* mgedmin looks around12:58
mgedminjinty's not here...12:58
bskahanr2496 will probably be the release candidate, still testing with a full sample school a bit12:59
bskahanI think we got all the issues you pointed out on the merge checkin13:00
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* mgedmin committed revision 250015:11
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bskahanfor schoolbell 1.0:18:47
bskahantime zone support18:48
bskahanAM/PM format18:48
bskahanall day events18:48
bskahanevent descriptions18:48
bskahanUI abstraction of bookings to events18:49
bskahanfor timezone support18:50
bskahanwe store all dates internally in server time, and the users TZ only matters in displays/POSTs?18:51
bskahanwill that cause any iCal client issues?18:51
bskahanusers should be able to choose the week format (sun. vs. mon.18:52
mgedminwe now store naive time (without timezone info)18:53
mgedmindatetime package allows us to store time+timezone18:53
mgedminor we could just store time in UTC18:53
bskahanis that better than using UTC?18:53
mgedminyou can specify the timezone in iCal18:53
bskahanthat was meant more a question than a statement18:53
mgedminthen the iCal client will convert it into user's local time18:54
mgedminI think it is simpler to store times in UTC18:54
bskahanI lean towards storing everything in UTC18:54
mgedminand covert them to a given timezone in browser views18:54
* bskahan nods18:54
bskahanshould users be able to book recurring resources?19:32
th1aCreate recurring events for resources?19:41
bskahanI think not19:44
bskahanthey can't currently19:44
th1aWell... I'd say that they should.19:45
th1aSomeday someone will write an extension that rations resources (each teacher can use the computer lab 10 days a semester).19:45
th1aCertainly, if you're reserving the computer lab for a week, you'd like to be able to do it with one shot.19:46
bskahaninterferes with my UI idea for booking/event combination19:46
bskahanI was afraid of that19:46
th1aHm... why is it a problem?19:46
bskahanit not a real problem19:46
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mgedmininternally, I believe, we support recurring events for resource booking20:13
mgedmin(more or less)20:14
mgedminbut it is hidden in the UI20:14
th1aShould we discuss time zones at length at the Monday meeting?20:14
mgedminI think the reason it was hidden in the UI is that browser views that handle special cases for recurring events (such as deleting just a single instance) would need to know about resource booking and update the resource in both calendars20:15
mgedminwe just punted on the issue20:15
th1aBut when you delete an individual booking it has to update both calendars, right?20:16
mgedminI believe that resource busy/free search deals with recurring events correctly20:16
mgedminth1a, that's right; this special case is handled in calendar.removeEvent20:17
mgedminI don't like that much now20:17
mgedminI want to rewrite resource booking to use (application) events internally to synchronize the two calendars20:17
mgedmins/rewrite/refactor/ ;)20:18
mgedminwe did that for timetables already20:18
th1aWill that happen as part of the overall Zope 3 refactoring?20:18
th1aOr is that a separate issue?20:18
mgedminit is likely20:18
bskahanth1a: I don't think the timezone discussion is needed on monday20:19
bskahanunless someone has a reason why the store in UTC, display local model isn't good20:19
th1aWe need to get SteveA to clarify why he thinks it is a can of worms.20:19
th1aThat's my only concern.20:19
SteveAhere's an example.20:19
SteveAI sync my palm device from my schoolbell server20:20
SteveAI have a meeting in london and next week i have a meeting in new york20:20
SteveAi'm in london20:20
SteveAwhat does the information on my palm say the time of my meeting in new york is?20:20
SteveAboth meetings are at noon, local time20:20
bskahanisn't that something Palm should fix?20:21
mgedminpalm stores naive time20:21
mgedminand I like that20:21
mgedminiCalendar supports naive time20:21
mgedminperhaps schoolbell should support both time+tz and naive time20:22
SteveAso, you need to think about how to convert from "canny time" to "naive time"20:22
mgedminit can be represented both internally, and in iCalendar20:22
mgedminsome iCal clients (KOrganizer) do not support naive time, I believe20:22
mgedminthey convert the times to UTC when saving20:22
mgedminso it works, but the timestamps are converted to time+tz20:22
SteveAthere's a document on this somewhere, or a bunch of them20:23
SteveAso, my point is, you need to consider naive time when designing the thing.  people often like to enter time in naive time, and then have it adjust to their personal timezone at the time.20:24
SteveAso, when i'm in london, and i look at my next week's calendar,20:24
SteveAI don't want to see that i have a meeting at 180020:24
SteveAbecause i don't20:24
SteveAi'll be in new york20:24
SteveAso i'll have a meeting at noon, local time to where i'll be at the time20:25
mgedminon the other hand, if there is a team of software developers20:25
SteveAthere's a similar issue around when clocks change20:25
mgedminthat live in different timezones20:25
mgedminand share a calendar20:25
mgedminwant to see the same event in their own separate timezones20:25
SteveAsay the clocks change on sunday.  i don't want to see next week's events 1 hour out of where they should be.20:26
* mgedmin hmms20:26
mgedminis that an issue?20:26
SteveAthere is no one right answer here20:26
bskahanthat's tricky20:26
mgedminI assume that the user will say that his timezone is "Europe/Vilnius"20:26
SteveAi'm just pointing out some of the issues20:26
SteveAor "worms" if you will20:26
mgedminrather than just specify the UTC offset20:26
mgedminin that case we will know when daylight savings will take effect20:26
mgedmin(assuming we have a database of timezones)20:27
* mgedmin is googling for a link to Stuart Bishop's pytz20:27
SteveAgotta go.  hope i haven't spoiled your weekends ;-)20:27
bskahanthanks ...20:28
mgedminyummy worms, thanks20:28
bskahanspaking of the savings time change20:31
bskahanthe section under Problems with Localtime20:31
bskahanpoints out something that's fun to render20:32
bskahaneveryone should just use UTC20:34
bskahansometime after everyone switches to metric20:34
bskahanI'm still leaning towards internal UTC storage20:35
th1aFor SchoolTool the "world traveler" use cases are unimportant.20:35
bskahanseems like most things will be easier that way and only a few will be harder20:36
bskahanpretty important for schoolbell though20:36
mgedminperhaps we can solve world traveler use case by explicitly showing the timezone in event add forms20:36
mgedmin"oh, it says Europe/London, but I'll be in New York, let me change that"20:36
mgedminthe user's configured time zone will be the default, of course20:37
bskahanI'd like that to be a sitewide option20:37
bskahanto show the TZ or not20:37
mgedminto avoid huge list boxes we might have a configurable list of timezones that I use20:37
* bskahan nods20:38
bskahanset a default TZ sitewide20:39
bskahanfor new user defaults and anonymous viewers20:39
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mgedminI've just noticed that the copyright notice at the bottom of each rendered page still says copyright 200423:38
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