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| bskahan | how are we doing the 0.9 release wrt Zope? | 12:56 |
|---|---|---|
| bskahan | including the whole zope tree? | 12:56 |
| * mgedmin looks around | 12:58 | |
| mgedmin | jinty's not here... | 12:58 |
| bskahan | heh | 12:58 |
| bskahan | r2496 will probably be the release candidate, still testing with a full sample school a bit | 12:59 |
| bskahan | I think we got all the issues you pointed out on the merge checkin | 13:00 |
| mgedmin | great! | 13:04 |
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| * mgedmin committed revision 2500 | 15:11 | |
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| bskahan | for schoolbell 1.0: | 18:47 |
| bskahan | time zone support | 18:48 |
| bskahan | AM/PM format | 18:48 |
| bskahan | all day events | 18:48 |
| bskahan | event descriptions | 18:48 |
| bskahan | UI abstraction of bookings to events | 18:49 |
| bskahan | for timezone support | 18:50 |
| bskahan | we store all dates internally in server time, and the users TZ only matters in displays/POSTs? | 18:51 |
| bskahan | will that cause any iCal client issues? | 18:51 |
| bskahan | users should be able to choose the week format (sun. vs. mon. | 18:52 |
| mgedmin | we now store naive time (without timezone info) | 18:53 |
| mgedmin | datetime package allows us to store time+timezone | 18:53 |
| mgedmin | or we could just store time in UTC | 18:53 |
| bskahan | is that better than using UTC? | 18:53 |
| mgedmin | you can specify the timezone in iCal | 18:53 |
| bskahan | that was meant more a question than a statement | 18:53 |
| mgedmin | then the iCal client will convert it into user's local time | 18:54 |
| bskahan | ok | 18:54 |
| mgedmin | I think it is simpler to store times in UTC | 18:54 |
| bskahan | I lean towards storing everything in UTC | 18:54 |
| mgedmin | and covert them to a given timezone in browser views | 18:54 |
| * bskahan nods | 18:54 | |
| bskahan | should users be able to book recurring resources? | 19:32 |
| th1a | Create recurring events for resources? | 19:41 |
| bskahan | yeah | 19:44 |
| bskahan | I think not | 19:44 |
| bskahan | they can't currently | 19:44 |
| th1a | Well... I'd say that they should. | 19:45 |
| th1a | Someday someone will write an extension that rations resources (each teacher can use the computer lab 10 days a semester). | 19:45 |
| bskahan | drat | 19:45 |
| th1a | Certainly, if you're reserving the computer lab for a week, you'd like to be able to do it with one shot. | 19:46 |
| bskahan | interferes with my UI idea for booking/event combination | 19:46 |
| bskahan | yeah | 19:46 |
| bskahan | I was afraid of that | 19:46 |
| th1a | Hm... why is it a problem? | 19:46 |
| bskahan | it not a real problem | 19:46 |
| th1a | OK. | 19:46 |
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| mgedmin | internally, I believe, we support recurring events for resource booking | 20:13 |
| mgedmin | (more or less) | 20:14 |
| mgedmin | but it is hidden in the UI | 20:14 |
| th1a | Should we discuss time zones at length at the Monday meeting? | 20:14 |
| mgedmin | I think the reason it was hidden in the UI is that browser views that handle special cases for recurring events (such as deleting just a single instance) would need to know about resource booking and update the resource in both calendars | 20:15 |
| mgedmin | we just punted on the issue | 20:15 |
| th1a | Ah. | 20:16 |
| th1a | But when you delete an individual booking it has to update both calendars, right? | 20:16 |
| mgedmin | I believe that resource busy/free search deals with recurring events correctly | 20:16 |
| mgedmin | th1a, that's right; this special case is handled in calendar.removeEvent | 20:17 |
| mgedmin | I don't like that much now | 20:17 |
| mgedmin | I want to rewrite resource booking to use (application) events internally to synchronize the two calendars | 20:17 |
| mgedmin | s/rewrite/refactor/ ;) | 20:18 |
| mgedmin | we did that for timetables already | 20:18 |
| th1a | Will that happen as part of the overall Zope 3 refactoring? | 20:18 |
| th1a | Or is that a separate issue? | 20:18 |
| mgedmin | it is likely | 20:18 |
| th1a | OK. | 20:19 |
| bskahan | th1a: I don't think the timezone discussion is needed on monday | 20:19 |
| bskahan | unless someone has a reason why the store in UTC, display local model isn't good | 20:19 |
| th1a | We need to get SteveA to clarify why he thinks it is a can of worms. | 20:19 |
| bskahan | true | 20:19 |
| th1a | That's my only concern. | 20:19 |
| SteveA | here's an example. | 20:19 |
| SteveA | I sync my palm device from my schoolbell server | 20:20 |
| SteveA | I have a meeting in london and next week i have a meeting in new york | 20:20 |
| SteveA | i'm in london | 20:20 |
| SteveA | what does the information on my palm say the time of my meeting in new york is? | 20:20 |
| SteveA | both meetings are at noon, local time | 20:20 |
| bskahan | isn't that something Palm should fix? | 20:21 |
| mgedmin | palm stores naive time | 20:21 |
| bskahan | ;) | 20:21 |
| mgedmin | and I like that | 20:21 |
| SteveA | right | 20:21 |
| mgedmin | iCalendar supports naive time | 20:21 |
| mgedmin | perhaps schoolbell should support both time+tz and naive time | 20:22 |
| SteveA | so, you need to think about how to convert from "canny time" to "naive time" | 20:22 |
| mgedmin | it can be represented both internally, and in iCalendar | 20:22 |
| mgedmin | some iCal clients (KOrganizer) do not support naive time, I believe | 20:22 |
| mgedmin | they convert the times to UTC when saving | 20:22 |
| mgedmin | so it works, but the timestamps are converted to time+tz | 20:22 |
| SteveA | there's a document on this somewhere, or a bunch of them | 20:23 |
| SteveA | so, my point is, you need to consider naive time when designing the thing. people often like to enter time in naive time, and then have it adjust to their personal timezone at the time. | 20:24 |
| SteveA | so, when i'm in london, and i look at my next week's calendar, | 20:24 |
| SteveA | I don't want to see that i have a meeting at 1800 | 20:24 |
| SteveA | because i don't | 20:24 |
| SteveA | i'll be in new york | 20:24 |
| SteveA | so i'll have a meeting at noon, local time to where i'll be at the time | 20:25 |
| mgedmin | on the other hand, if there is a team of software developers | 20:25 |
| SteveA | there's a similar issue around when clocks change | 20:25 |
| mgedmin | that live in different timezones | 20:25 |
| mgedmin | and share a calendar | 20:25 |
| bskahan | hypothetically | 20:25 |
| mgedmin | want to see the same event in their own separate timezones | 20:25 |
| SteveA | say the clocks change on sunday. i don't want to see next week's events 1 hour out of where they should be. | 20:26 |
| * mgedmin hmms | 20:26 | |
| mgedmin | is that an issue? | 20:26 |
| SteveA | there is no one right answer here | 20:26 |
| bskahan | that's tricky | 20:26 |
| mgedmin | I assume that the user will say that his timezone is "Europe/Vilnius" | 20:26 |
| SteveA | i'm just pointing out some of the issues | 20:26 |
| SteveA | or "worms" if you will | 20:26 |
| mgedmin | rather than just specify the UTC offset | 20:26 |
| mgedmin | in that case we will know when daylight savings will take effect | 20:26 |
| mgedmin | (assuming we have a database of timezones) | 20:27 |
| * mgedmin is googling for a link to Stuart Bishop's pytz | 20:27 | |
| mgedmin | http://pytz.sourceforge.net/ | 20:27 |
| SteveA | gotta go. hope i haven't spoiled your weekends ;-) | 20:27 |
| bskahan | thanks ... | 20:28 |
| mgedmin | yummy worms, thanks | 20:28 |
| bskahan | spaking of the savings time change | 20:31 |
| bskahan | the section under Problems with Localtime | 20:31 |
| bskahan | points out something that's fun to render | 20:32 |
| bskahan | everyone should just use UTC | 20:34 |
| bskahan | sometime after everyone switches to metric | 20:34 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 20:35 |
| bskahan | I'm still leaning towards internal UTC storage | 20:35 |
| th1a | For SchoolTool the "world traveler" use cases are unimportant. | 20:35 |
| bskahan | seems like most things will be easier that way and only a few will be harder | 20:36 |
| bskahan | pretty important for schoolbell though | 20:36 |
| mgedmin | perhaps we can solve world traveler use case by explicitly showing the timezone in event add forms | 20:36 |
| mgedmin | "oh, it says Europe/London, but I'll be in New York, let me change that" | 20:36 |
| mgedmin | the user's configured time zone will be the default, of course | 20:37 |
| bskahan | I'd like that to be a sitewide option | 20:37 |
| bskahan | to show the TZ or not | 20:37 |
| mgedmin | to avoid huge list boxes we might have a configurable list of timezones that I use | 20:37 |
| * bskahan nods | 20:38 | |
| bskahan | set a default TZ sitewide | 20:39 |
| bskahan | for new user defaults and anonymous viewers | 20:39 |
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| mgedmin | I've just noticed that the copyright notice at the bottom of each rendered page still says copyright 2004 | 23:38 |
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| tvon | oops | 23:59 |
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