IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2004-12-15

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*mgedmin thinks about making calendar events mutable18:05
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*mgedmin wants to add __len__ to ICalendar19:25
th1aSteveA:  We're unsure about how to approach adding icons to SchoolBell.19:33
th1aI'm assuming that we'll eventually pay someone to make a set for us,19:33
th1abut in the meantime it would be good to steal some from GNOME or other GPL'ed projects, just to get us going.19:34
tvon|x31at least the gnome icons will match (since we're using the HIG colors)19:38
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec 15 22:36:36 2004
-->You are now talking on #schooltool22:36
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---Topic for #schooltool set by Aiste at Mon Oct 18 11:47:26 200422:36
freakazoidwould it make any difference in whether private events were blocked for a different user who has access in the ACL?22:37
th1aI think the default is going to be for SchoolBell to only run the browser interface.22:37
freakazoidmy wife saw all my private events as "busy time" only22:37
th1aI don't think they are different.22:37
freakazoidI will file a wishlist item or something22:38
th1aThe distinction about what "private" means is tricky.22:38
th1aWe're looking at this from the point of view of a school.22:38
bska|mobilefreakazoid: is PST -8 from UTC?22:38
freakazoidbska: yes22:38
freakazoidth1a: How about separate ACLs?22:38
th1aIt just gets more complicated, inevitably.22:39
freakazoidactually, with the separate ACLs, I'd suggest a separate URL for the "public" version of the calendar rather than showing it differently based on who's looking at it22:39
th1aI think that's probably a good idea, but I'll have to think about it.22:41
th1aRight now, "public" means "visible to anyone with 'view' permission"22:42
th1a"private" means "visible only to you"22:43
th1aWhich isn't useful if someone other than you has "add" or "modify" permission.22:43
bska|mobileevolution, and I think, outlook handle free/busy vs. public/private seperatly22:43
bska|mobilefree/busy is used for scheduling while public/private is more of an ACL concept22:44
th1aIt seems to me that one solution would be to say that people with "add" or "modify" permission can also see "private" events.22:44
bska|mobilemaybe only modify22:46
bska|mobilemodify implies being able to see an existing event, but "add" could be used by an admin assistant to add a new event22:47
th1aRight.  But then we get into that overwriting situation that freakazoid is worried about.22:48
th1aMaybe you need "modify" permission to add events via iCalendar file.22:49
th1aPerhaps you should only be able to "add" via the browser or XML.22:49
bska|mobileI think that would hurt a bit22:50
th1aWell, the idea is that if you have "add" and not "modify" you're only semi-trusted.22:51
freakazoidLet's assume separate URLs first of all22:51
freakazoidbecause giving you different data depending on who you are seems broken22:52
bska|mobileI'm not sure seperate URLs are required22:52
freakazoidit's confusing though22:52
freakazoidsame url should be same data22:52
bska|mobilethe visibility/editability can be handled in schooltool22:52
bska|mobiledepending on your authentication22:52
freakazoidIMHO the ability to see private events should be a separate issue from modify permission22:53
freakazoidsince I may want someone to be able to see all of my events but not change my calendar22:53
bska|mobileI tend to agree22:53
bska|mobileconcerned about how to handle complex ACL in the UI for a non technical user though22:54
th1aOK.  Just trying to think of ways to keep it simple.22:54
freakazoidI'm not sure it even makes sense to have an ADD acl22:54
freakazoidadding to a calendar but not being able to modify what you just added doesn't make much sense22:55
th1aIt's more of a resource booking overlap.22:55
bska|mobileth1a: that's something seperate I wanted to talk about22:55
th1aYou can add a reservation to use the library, but you can't remove someone else's.22:55
freakazoidresource reservations need to have owners22:56
th1aThey do.22:56
th1aOr they can, at least.22:56
freakazoidso add makes sense in that context22:56
freakazoidit doesnt' make sense for my personal calendar22:56
freakazoidunless once someone adds an event they can also modify that event22:57
bska|mobileaccept in the context of a superior adding something to everyones calendar22:57
freakazoidif they add it they should be able to modify or delete the same event22:57
*bska|mobile nods22:58
freakazoidcalendaring is hard  :)22:58
freakazoidok, I've opened two bugs, now for a feature22:58
th1aYes, managing this project has gotten a little weird for me in that regard.  I'm here for the school administration stuff, I don't have much inherent interest in calendars!22:59
bska|mobileit gets more interesting as you beat your head against it22:59
th1aI suppose.  Booking resources I have more of a feel for.23:00
bska|mobileoutlook doesn't support iCal does it?23:01
freakazoidit uses vCalendar for free/busy time but that's all I know of23:02
freakazoidit can send meeting requests in vCalendar format if you put it in internet mode23:02
bska|mobilefreakazoid: thanks, that's what I was afraid of23:03
freakazoidI am pretty sure it's not capable of publishing the entire calendar in any standard format23:03
freakazoidth1a: Calendaring is a very big thing though23:04
freakazoidth1a: There is no good calendar server out there23:04
freakazoidat least, not one that interoperates well with standard clients23:04
th1aOh, I see the value in it, and I think it is a great strategic move for us.23:04
freakazoidunless OGO or eGroupWare does. I haven't tested either.23:04
bska|mobileth1a: good future bounty for school* - zidestore adapter to fake an exchange connection23:04
bska|mobilethe exchange adapter used for open groupware23:05
freakazoidbska|mobile: The value may be low though because it only implements the WebDAV interface with I believe Outlook won't use without a commercial plugin23:05
freakazoiderr s/with/which23:05
bska|mobilefreakazoid: you may be right, I haven't looked into it in quite some time23:06
bska|mobilethe OGo outlook adapter is $25 per user, iirc23:06
freakazoidYeah,you need Zidelook or Bynari Connector23:06
freakazoidactually it does look like OGO will work with iCalendar clients23:07
freakazoidlooks like egroupware will too23:08
bska|mobileimap/ldap/schoolbell with thunderbird/sunbird would get you pretty close to an open source exchange/outlook replacement23:08
freakazoidI'd rather use Schoolbell though23:08
freakazoidOGO will get you that all in one package23:08
freakazoidI've already done the IMAP/LDAP thing with other software23:09
*bska|mobile nods23:09
freakazoidspecifically Postfix, Cyrus, and OpenLDAP23:09
freakazoidI don't know why I need a "framework" for every application I have23:11
freakazoidegroupware supposedly has great calendaring but crappy webmail23:11
bska|mobileegrouware/phpgroupware are both nice23:12
freakazoidBeing written in PHP is a major handicap from my point of view though23:12
freakazoidPHP needs to be eradicated from the planet23:12
freakazoidIf you really need PHP to make it easy enough for you to write a web app because you're a content developer, you shouldn't be writing web apps23:13
freakazoideven better, if you need to learn a little bit of programming for a quick hack, you should at least use a real programming language for it that's actually capable of being used for more than just quick hacks23:14
freakazoidMaybe we need a mod_psp23:14
freakazoidbased on cheetah23:14
freakazoidmake it look just like PHP except that it's python internally23:15
bska|mobilefreakazoid: take a look at webware23:15
freakazoidwebware is cool23:15
freakazoidexcept I have no interest in PSP myself  :)23:16
freakazoidcombining code and content is bad23:16
freakazoidI guess you can use regular cheetah templates with webware too23:16
freakazoidIMHO skunk is cooler than webware23:17
freakazoidbut it doesn't seem to be maintained any more23:17
freakazoidand STML sucks23:17
freakazoidI don't want a templating language that looks like HTML23:18
freakazoidone thing I don't like about ZPT23:18
bska|mobilebeing xml based?23:18
freakazoidSTML is Skunk's templating language23:18
freakazoidyeah, there's no reason for it23:18
freakazoidwhat if you want to generate something other than XML with it?23:19
freakazoidCheetah is much more concise as well23:19
freakazoidthough it's not cross-language23:19
freakazoidWhereas ZPT isn't really tied to Python23:19
freakazoidZPT is the second least bad templating system I know of  :)23:20
freakazoidok, time for lunch23:20
th1afreakazoid:  thanks for your input.23:22
*mgedmin googles STML23:23
th1amgedmin:  Are you going to be working on all-day events?23:24
mgedminprobably not23:25
mgedmintimezones are higher in the priority list23:25
*mgedmin fails to find a representative example of STML, looks at the first chapter of the reference manual, and goes away unimpressed23:26
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freakazoidI joined the mailing lit23:38
freakazoiderr list23:38
freakazoidis the main discussion list for dev discussion?23:39
th1aIt can be.23:39
th1aThere's not enough traffic overall to subdivide.23:39
freakazoidIs that the appropriate plac eto be if I'm intersted in development?23:39

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