IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2004-10-19

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algaoh, hi th1a20:52
th1ahi alga20:52
algait is also not allowed to put teabags into a kettle :-)20:53
th1aSo I altered to add all the users to the root group.20:53
algaI think it is a bad idea20:53
th1aWell, it is necessary if we are going to restrict membership in a group to members of its immediate parents.20:55
th1aI don't really understand the purpose of the root group, other than just helping navigation.20:55
algait is just a help for navigation20:56
algathe entry point20:57
th1aThe only problem that adding people to the root groups creates is that it adds a big list of people to the root group page.21:00
th1aproblem is that...21:00
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pereIs the client in the debian archive supposed to be able to contact
th1awxclient, should be able to.21:46
perehm, I misread the instructions.  The instructions mentioned the manager user, so I tried to use it when connecting to the server.  This gave 401 access denied.21:47
perewhen I didn't specify the user, I was able to connect.21:47
perethe instructions didn't say anything about ssl, so I tried that first.  This made wxschooltool hang completely.21:47
th1aThe wxclient is pretty much deprecated, actually.21:50
mgedminit is probably timing out...21:50
pereth1a: so, which client in the debian package should I use to connect to demo.s.o?21:50
th1aWell... we're moving primarily to a browser interface.21:51
th1aSo you really should run a server locally if you want a proper demo at this point.21:52
mgedminpere: I'm afraid that you need SchoolTool Milestone 5 to connect to the demo server21:52
mgedminnewer clients might not work with an older server version21:52
th1aYeah.  We've forgotten about keeping the demo server up to date.21:52
peremgedmin: sounds to me like you need to stabilize the protocol, and make it extendable without breaking backwards compatibility. :)21:53
mgedmineventually, yes21:53
th1aHow much is involved in upgrading the demo server?21:53
th1aIt's too early.21:53
mgedminwhat do you mean about upgrading21:53
mgedminshould the new demo server allow users to connect via http as well as with schooltool clients?21:53
th1aI mean, when we're done with the current milestone, installing it on the demo server.21:54
mgedmina day or two, perhaps21:54
th1aYeah.  It should be primarily http.21:54
th1aHm.  Maybe that'll have to be the first thing on the following contract.21:54
mgedminhttp access in addition to RESTive access means extra firewall rules and extra apache rewrite rules21:55
mgedminin addition to just upgrading the software21:55
Aisteand hopefully all that would be on the new server that Mark puts up21:55
th1aOK.  Yeah.21:55
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stockholmwhat options does schooltool provide for exporting user data?22:10
stockholmi am thinking right now of annual changes at the end/beginning of terms22:11
th1aRight now we just have some simple csv formats.22:11
stockholmand what data do you export?22:11
th1aRight now we don't have much data frankly.  Users and group memberships.  I'm not sure if we can export attendance data.22:12
stockholmi am interested i information like "user foo changed from 4th grade to 5th grade"22:12
stockholmor even "teacher A married and is now called B"22:13
stockholmdo you have such data?22:13
th1aWell... SchoolTool is scriptable via a web services interface, so depending on what you're trying to do it might be easier to do by writing external scripts than exporting a chunk of data.22:13
stockholmand would you routinly export it to the schools network?22:14
th1aSo you want to export a list of changes that were made over a given period of time?22:14
stockholmyes, preferably tat.22:14
th1aWell, scripts could be written to do that.22:14
th1aHow would you use this data?22:15
stockholmwe in skolelinux/debian-edu would like to use your that data to update cerebrum, a meta-directory which updates students group memberships and permissions, takes care of automated user administration (like moving people`s $HOME between partions or keeps their data in sync over system (samba, unix, kerberos, AFS)22:16
stockholmmeta-directory here is a term for a storage system that exports to other directories like ldap, nis etc22:17
th1aAh.  OK.  I'd think we'd be able to do that closer to real time, rather than an export at the end of a time period.22:17
stockholmor even Active Directory.22:17
stockholmkeeping the data in sync and consistent22:17
th1aYeah.  I'm trying to get a handle on Cerebrum.  So it's role is to coordinate different user admin systems. 22:18
stockholmth1a: yes, that would be our wish too, but there are some countries (as germany) who prescribe by law that the administrative network (aka schooltool) has to be physically seperated from the school network22:19
stockholmkind of.22:19
th1aI'm planning on installing Cerebrum on my Linux box later today.22:19
stockholmi am prepareing a debian package, but it is not fuctional, because cerebrum is not at all trivial to configure and has no documentation yet22:20
stockholmi need to update it to the latest cvs version.22:20
th1aSo Cerebrum has to sit on the school network and schooltool has to sit on the admin network.22:20
stockholmfor schools in germany real-time syncing is not feasable. 22:20
th1aOK should I get cerebrum from cvs then?  I suspect that it won't actually do anything on my desktop box anyhow...22:20
stockholmno, dont get it yet. it will take a days or two 22:21
stockholmto get it in shape again.22:21
th1aSo what is the front end for cerebrum?22:21
stockholmwe are deploying it on our server right now and one of the developers is about to look at the thing tomorrow22:21
stockholmthere are several: we want to hide it as well as possibel (since it can be quite complex and would confuse normal teachers) by using our webmin user-admin interface22:22
perestockholm: as far as I remember, the import cerebrum expext is on the for person XXX YY with unique ID # is taking class ZZZZZ22:22
stockholmth1a: then there is a commandline tool and a javagui 22:23
stockholmand around christmas the webinterface will be in beta22:23
perestockholm: at least the XML format Mathias is working on is like this.22:23
th1aDo other European countries other than Germany have this split network requirement?22:24
stockholmpere: i see.22:24
stockholmth1a: i just tried to find our about norway, but no one answered.22:24
stockholmi will try to find out more.22:24
stockholmabout other countries.22:24
perenorway will get away with having a firewall between the teachers and the pupils network.22:25
perenorwegian authoraties have great fait in firewalls.22:25
stockholmth1a: the physical seperation could be provided by wifi. (c:22:25
stockholmth1a: (this is my favorit joke about the situation, please laugh)22:25
th1aI'm a little puzzled, actually.22:26
th1aBut I guess you can't use wifi in German schools.22:26
th1aMaybe with authentication.22:27
stockholmth1a: wifi would be a horrendous securtiy hole. it cant be permitted for sensitive data22:27
th1aThese are headaches I'm glad we don't have.22:27
stockholmth1a: that is the us?22:27
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th1aI've visited schools where their data was stored on an ASP server that didn't even use SSL.22:28
pereth1a: the schooltool project will have to consider these issues if it is to be usable in norway and germany.  I belive most european countries have privacy laws.22:28
stockholmoh, sure. but most people are just ignorant, i guess the seperation rule is caused by that 22:28
th1aSure.  I know we need to deal with it.22:29
th1aOK, so in one form or another we need to be able to export a list of changes from SchoolTool and carry them over to the other network to import into Cerebrum.22:30
stockholmyes, that would be good.22:30
stockholmcerebrum uses cxml22:30
th1aSo that format is a work in progress?22:31
th1aYour xml?22:31
stockholmbut generally it can use all kinds or input filters.22:31
stockholmmoment, looking for a link.22:31
stockholmpere, do you have it handy?22:31
stockholmpere: is that it?22:34
perestockholm: yes.22:34
stockholmth1a: this can still change, but it shows well what it could look like22:36
th1aOK.  Thanks.22:36
stockholmth1a: in my oppinion we need to be able to group whole years together in age-groups like "freshmen", etc22:37
stockholmthat is missing in that schema.22:37
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