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| aelkner | yvl, ayt? | 09:09 |
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| replaceafill | a pdb call in a view!!! | 18:52 |
| alga | a spanner in the works? | 19:00 |
| replaceafill | it seems like the view is not used in the gradebook anymore. fortunately ;) | 19:01 |
| replaceafill | th1a, aelkner: what's a 'Maximum passing score'? | 19:48 |
| replaceafill | in my head there's only the idea of 'you need B to pass this course'... | 19:48 |
| replaceafill | which i think B is the minimum to pass? | 19:49 |
| th1a | If you have a 1-5 scoring system where 1 is best. | 19:49 |
| th1a | This was a real use case, btw. | 19:49 |
| replaceafill | ah | 19:50 |
| replaceafill | like an inverted scale? | 19:50 |
| replaceafill | weird :P | 19:50 |
| th1a | Like "we're #1!" | 19:52 |
| replaceafill | right | 19:52 |
| aelkner | th1a, remember, it wasw needed for reverse-order score systems | 19:55 |
| aelkner | zambia wanted it for some reason, but we lost touch with them, so we don'[t see them using it | 19:56 |
| replaceafill | aelkner, could you take a look at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~replaceafill/schooltool.gradebook/replaceafill_schooltool.gradebook/annotate/head%3A/src/schooltool/gradebook/browser/ftests/request_reports.txt | 19:57 |
| replaceafill | line 22 | 19:57 |
| replaceafill | that's that use case, correct? | 19:58 |
| aelkner | right | 19:59 |
| replaceafill | great, i'm going to change the minScore input name to just score | 20:00 |
| replaceafill | we have a minMax value, so score can be a min or a max ;) | 20:00 |
| replaceafill | or passingScore | 20:00 |
| aelkner | or cutoff score? | 20:01 |
| replaceafill | ah ok | 20:01 |
| aelkner | i'm not sure what would help the user there, th1a? | 20:01 |
| th1a | Wait what? | 20:02 |
| th1a | We're not paying by the character here. | 20:03 |
| th1a | If it isn't clear we can use a whole phrase. | 20:03 |
| replaceafill | no, i meant the input field name attribute | 20:03 |
| replaceafill | not the UI | 20:03 |
| replaceafill | although the UI makes me think that i need a decreasing score system... | 20:04 |
| th1a | passing score? | 20:04 |
| replaceafill | http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2671/pantallazooo.png | 20:05 |
| th1a | So change menScore to passingScore? | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | yes | 20:07 |
| th1a | OK. | 20:07 |
| aelkner | why do we need to change the attribute name? | 20:08 |
| replaceafill | aelkner, it leads me to think it's a minimum value | 20:08 |
| aelkner | ah, ok | 20:08 |
| replaceafill | like minMax, wtf?!?! | 20:08 |
| replaceafill | :D | 20:08 |
| replaceafill | scaleType, or something... | 20:09 |
| aelkner | isMinOrMax? | 20:09 |
| replaceafill | :| | 20:09 |
| replaceafill | shouldWeOrderedDescOrAsc!! | 20:09 |
| aelkner | reverseOrderded? | 20:10 |
| aelkner | that was a serious suggestion | 20:10 |
| th1a | I still don't know what :| means. | 20:10 |
| replaceafill | damn, sorry! changing to explicit emoticons again | 20:10 |
| aelkner | yeah, i mean that one suggests you have a mouth | 20:11 |
| aelkner | but no mood, what are you flat affect? :) | 20:11 |
| replaceafill | what does that value do? if you set it to Minimum or set it to Maximum? | 20:11 |
| th1a | Perhaps if you could make your eyes bigger with the straight mouth it would make more sense to me. | 20:12 |
| th1a | Is it a bool? | 20:12 |
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| replaceafill | yes | 20:13 |
| aelkner | th1a, the bool, minMax refers to whether the attrubute, minimumPassingScore is a min or a max | 20:13 |
| aelkner | that perhaps is a bit confusing, more informative would be the same bool, but named ascendingScores? | 20:14 |
| th1a | So it should be, say isMax | 20:14 |
| aelkner | reverseOrdered? | 20:14 |
| aelkner | what is max? | 20:14 |
| aelkner | that's the problem | 20:14 |
| th1a | isAscending? | 20:14 |
| replaceafill | i don't think we want to change the scoresystem attribute names | 20:14 |
| th1a | isDescending? | 20:14 |
| aelkner | that sounds good | 20:14 |
| replaceafill | i mean, the view, we can do whatever we want | 20:14 |
| aelkner | right | 20:14 |
| aelkner | not change a bit | 20:15 |
| th1a | replaceafill: I thought that was the entire topic of the conversation. | 20:15 |
| th1a | So we're done then? | 20:15 |
| aelkner | we're talking changing attribute names for code reader friendliness | 20:15 |
| replaceafill | th1a, oh sorry, no, i was talking about the view | 20:15 |
| th1a | :| | 20:16 |
| replaceafill | th1a, i'd be more concerned about the instructions in the form | 20:16 |
| replaceafill | (rolling eyes) | 20:16 |
| aelkner | th1a, now you're using it, do you mean wtf/wink? | 20:16 |
| th1a | :Y | 20:16 |
| aelkner | like an ambiguous mood? | 20:17 |
| aelkner | :) | 20:17 |
| th1a | :K | 20:17 |
| th1a | :Z | 20:17 |
| aelkner | looks like you have food stuck on your mouth | 20:17 |
| th1a | Anyhow... | 20:17 |
| replaceafill | th1a's mustache | 20:17 |
| aelkner | use a napkin | 20:17 |
| th1a | I'd say maybe we should just add a sentence. | 20:17 |
| replaceafill | yes | 20:17 |
| aelkner | replaceafill, are you planning on changing the attr name? | 20:18 |
| replaceafill | aelkner, the minScore yes | 20:18 |
| replaceafill | you mean in the view, right? | 20:18 |
| th1a | "If the values in the score system descend, e.g., 1 is the best score, set the value below to say 'Maximum' passing score. Otherwise leave it a 'Minimum' passing score." | 20:19 |
| th1a | Something like that. | 20:19 |
| aelkner | attr names are in objects, not views | 20:19 |
| replaceafill | aelkner, not touching the persistent objects | 20:19 |
| th1a | This is the kind of form where it will usually not be used at all, and at most used once or twice, so lots of on-page explanation is fine. | 20:19 |
| aelkner | ah, i see the issue, it's not the edit view | 20:19 |
| aelkner | that view is clearer because the dropdown starts the sentence | 20:20 |
| aelkner | you're talking the display/list views, right? | 20:20 |
| aelkner | actually, there is no edit view, i mean add view | 20:20 |
| replaceafill | th1a, http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9853/pantallazo4s.png | 20:22 |
| replaceafill | aelkner, yes the add view for custom score systems | 20:22 |
| th1a | That seems better. | 20:22 |
| * th1a goes to make lunch. | 20:23 | |
| aelkner | yeah, the lnk you posted, it shows that the sentence <Minimum> pass score <C> | 20:23 |
| aelkner | i thought that was clear, but perhaps a paragrah before that setting would help explain | 20:24 |
| aelkner | that by choosing Maximum, you intend the score system to be reverse-order | 20:24 |
| replaceafill | to be honest, it still confuses my brain (sad face) | 20:24 |
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| aelkner | are you not seeing the purpose or a reverse-order score system? | 20:25 |
| replaceafill | i mean, "Start with the highest score. Click "Add a lower score" to add scores until you have created a score with a minimum percentage of 0." | 20:25 |
| replaceafill | "Low Percentage" | 20:25 |
| aelkner | good point | 20:25 |
| replaceafill | "Add a lower case" | 20:25 |
| replaceafill | no, i see the use | 20:25 |
| replaceafill | clearly | 20:25 |
| replaceafill | but the form leads you to think of something descending | 20:26 |
| replaceafill | from A - F | 20:26 |
| aelkner | look, it's not easy to explain the idea of adding to a table | 20:26 |
| replaceafill | where A is the best with the highest score | 20:26 |
| aelkner | when that table is to be used in reverse order | 20:26 |
| replaceafill | right | 20:26 |
| aelkner | the lower percentages are lower in the table, regardless of the order of their rank in pass/fail tests | 20:26 |
| aelkner | so as long as the user understand that they are building a table | 20:27 |
| aelkner | if we had a paragraph | 20:27 |
| aelkner | that came after Add Lower Score | 20:27 |
| replaceafill | i guess that in my head, lower percentage = lover point value | 20:27 |
| aelkner | is does | 20:27 |
| aelkner | 4, 3, 2, 1 | 20:28 |
| aelkner | 2 is the Mad passing score | 20:28 |
| aelkner | that's what the user wanted | 20:28 |
| replaceafill | not in the ascending score system | 20:28 |
| aelkner | so 1 and 2 pass | 20:28 |
| replaceafill | 1 - 100% | 20:28 |
| replaceafill | 2 - 80% | 20:28 |
| replaceafill | 3 - 60% | 20:28 |
| replaceafill | etc | 20:28 |
| aelkner | the case i refered to is not that | 20:28 |
| aelkner | it litterally is 1, 2 pass, 3, 4 fail | 20:29 |
| aelkner | but 1 IS a lower score than 4 | 20:29 |
| aelkner | did you ever play a card game where lowest score wins? | 20:29 |
| aelkner | it's kind of like that | 20:29 |
| replaceafill | right | 20:30 |
| replaceafill | like places in a race or something | 20:30 |
| aelkner | yeah, a good analogy | 20:30 |
| aelkner | anyway, a paragrah after the Add Lower Score button but before the min/max drop-down cold say: | 20:31 |
| aelkner | If you want the cuttoff score for passing to be a maximum value rather than a minimum, | 20:32 |
| aelkner | then you are saying that you want the score system to go in reverse order | 20:32 |
| aelkner | that's poorly stated, of course | 20:32 |
| replaceafill | (laugh) | 20:32 |
| aelkner | i'd suggest th1a come up with a good paragraph | 20:33 |
| replaceafill | he did | 20:33 |
| aelkner | where? | 20:33 |
| replaceafill | http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9853/pantallazo4s.png | 20:33 |
| aelkner | ah, see, that's why i suggested him, he's good at that kind of stuff | 20:34 |
| aelkner | so, problem solved? | 20:34 |
| replaceafill | hhmm yeah | 20:34 |
| replaceafill | i'll keep adding tests (wink) | 20:34 |
| aelkner | \seriously, what is going on with your emoticons, did you refere to some setting in XChat-GNOME? | 20:35 |
| replaceafill | no man, they're manually generated (wink) | 20:36 |
| aelkner | whatever (spoken with valley-girl accent) | 20:37 |
| replaceafill | lol | 20:37 |
| replaceafill | see?!!? more expressive | 20:37 |
| replaceafill | thans aelkner | 20:38 |
| replaceafill | *thanks | 20:38 |
| aelkner | np | 20:38 |
| th1a | Well... there is a whole category of things which are kind of hopeless to explain unless it happens to be thing thing you already need. | 20:40 |
| th1a | If you don't need a reverse score system, trying to explain it at length is only going to confuse people. | 20:41 |
| replaceafill | agree | 20:41 |
| th1a | And, on the other hand, if you have a reverse score system, and it is set up so that all you have to do is cross your fingers and follow the directions, most people won't do that anyhow. | 20:41 |
| th1a | So... | 20:41 |
| th1a | It is sort of a no-win situation, insofar as most people will just want to ask someone what to d. | 20:42 |
| th1a | do. | 20:42 |
| aelkner | that's why ATM interfaces work the best | 20:42 |
| aelkner | you steer the user with a series of questions | 20:43 |
| th1a | It is why you hire a vendor to set up your SIS. | 20:43 |
| aelkner | Do you need the score system to go in reverse order? | 20:43 |
| aelkner | Like at WaWa, do you want to add bacon? | 20:43 |
| aelkner | it's annoying when there are too many questions | 20:44 |
| th1a | But the concept of reverse order is confusing, and then if you have to explain it, when 95% of people don't need it... ug. | 20:44 |
| aelkner | Advanced button in preferences forms tend to work pretty well, you think? | 20:45 |
| th1a | Anyhow, what we have is basically ok. | 20:45 |
| aelkner | i agree, with the added paragraph, it's ok | 20:45 |
| th1a | To improve it we'd probably need a complete re-think. | 20:48 |
| replaceafill | th1a, in my head, as aelkner says, just the first question, 'want it ascending or descending' | 20:48 |
| replaceafill | then you show the same form but with different wording | 20:48 |
| th1a | The problem with that is you start with an abstract, confusing concept that 95% of people don't need to think about. | 20:49 |
| replaceafill | right, then it becomes unnecessary for them | 20:50 |
| aelkner | it's the right way to think about it | 20:51 |
| th1a | If people who need the weird case get confused, punt, have to ask and then see, "Oh, I guess it is pretty simple," then that might be the best we can do anyhow. | 20:51 |
| aelkner | from an expected value point of view, 100% of the time annoy 98% of the users | 20:51 |
| aelkner | exactly | 20:52 |
| aelkner | that's why i refered to the Advanced button which many find easy to use | 20:52 |
| aelkner | anyone who bothers to check out preferences in any app, knows that one | 20:52 |
| th1a | But it isn't a more advanced case. | 20:52 |
| th1a | It is just a different one. | 20:53 |
| th1a | It is basic from the point of view of that user. | 20:53 |
| aelkner | weirdness is advanced if you accept that way of looking at it :) | 20:53 |
| aelkner | the button could read 'Special settings' | 20:54 |
| th1a | One of the main things which makes this application difficult is that everyone thinks what they grew up is normal and everything else is a weird edge case. | 20:54 |
| th1a | Anyhow, I'm fine with it at this point. | 20:54 |
| replaceafill | almost 96% coverage in the gradebook.browser.gradebook module (smile) | 20:55 |
| replaceafill | damn untested cancel buttons! | 20:56 |
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