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| th1a | hi menesis, yvl, aelkner. | 15:32 |
|---|---|---|
| aelkner | hello | 15:32 |
| yvl | hi th1a | 15:32 |
| menesis | hi. | 15:33 |
| th1a | OK, how are we looking for the release. | 15:33 |
| th1a | In particular, do we have a plan for dealing with the new Zope packages in Karmic? | 15:34 |
| menesis | looking late :( | 15:36 |
| yvl | menesis, details? :) | 15:37 |
| th1a | ... | 15:40 |
| menesis | either we release what is done already, this week, for jaunty and earlier | 15:40 |
| menesis | or postpone the release to have time to upgrade the underlying zope platform | 15:41 |
| menesis | looking at https://launchpad.net/schooltool/+milestone/karmic it is nowhere near ready | 15:42 |
| menesis | but gradebook has many new features, and we have a new intervention package | 15:42 |
| th1a | So basically we need to change the packaging around now. | 15:43 |
| th1a | Lots of little fixes, I presume? | 15:43 |
| menesis | so I propose an interim release soon, using the same zope 3.4 platform and packages | 15:43 |
| yvl | yep | 15:43 |
| th1a | Hm. | 15:44 |
| menesis | and prepare proper Zope Toolkit packages to be included in Ubuntu Lucid, and a SchoolTool release based on them | 15:44 |
| th1a | here are my thoughts: | 15:45 |
| th1a | a) This isn't an upgrade that we want to push to everyone who apt-get updates; | 15:45 |
| th1a | b) we don't want to take a lot of time packaging for jaunty and earlier; | 15:45 |
| th1a | c) I'm ok with saying "ok, the software is done and freezing it, and then focusing on the packaging" | 15:46 |
| th1a | So I'm just a little unsure about how much time we should spend putting out packages for Jaunty and earlier as soon as possible, since we don't really want people using them immediately anyhow. | 15:47 |
| th1a | If you know what I mean. | 15:47 |
| th1a | It might be better to just focus on Karmic. | 15:48 |
| th1a | yvl: How do you see it? | 15:48 |
| yvl | So the plan is , if I got it correctly: don't release updates for Jaunty and earlier, release on 3.4 platform for Karmic? | 15:49 |
| th1a | That's what I'm suggesting. | 15:49 |
| yvl | menesis, how long it would take us to release a working Zope 3.4 based schooltool on Karmic? | 15:50 |
| menesis | a) we can create a different ppa, let's call it "1.2", and put new releases there. it depends on the main ppa and will have packages for hardy-jaunty for those who want the new release | 15:50 |
| menesis | b) it takes little time to package just schooltool* | 15:50 |
| th1a | I hadn't been figuring on doing a jaunty release for 1.2, but the reason to do it now is just to say "see, we completed the release on time." | 15:51 |
| th1a | But it isn't worth doing that if it will end up costing us time, particularly if it will incur confusion and maintenance costs down the road. | 15:52 |
| menesis | yvl: I don't know yet what are incompatibilities between the new zope packages in karmic and the current ones; and how much zope.* packages are affected. but we will need source changes for sure, so it's not only about packaging | 15:54 |
| th1a | Right. | 15:54 |
| th1a | I guess I was imagining that we could still use our Zope packages in Karmic and just ignore the Ubuntu ones. | 15:55 |
| yvl | hmm | 15:55 |
| th1a | See the problem? | 15:55 |
| menesis | it should be possible to pin some packages to be taken from the PPA in /etc/apt/apt.conf | 15:56 |
| th1a | That's not practical for users though, right? | 15:56 |
| yvl | it would save us a lot of headaches until Lucid | 15:56 |
| menesis | or, set Depends: zope.component << 3.5 for schooltool packages and maybe APT can solve the dependencies | 15:57 |
| yvl | but I guess the best thing we can do is port SchoolTool to work with newer packages | 15:57 |
| th1a | That's probably the next thing you have to do anyhow. | 15:58 |
| yvl | I'm not sure how long will that take | 15:58 |
| menesis | that last solution might work and make schooltool available for karmic soonest | 15:58 |
| yvl | ok, I'll start doing that immediatly | 15:58 |
| th1a | What yvl and menesis should do immediately... | 15:59 |
| th1a | You beat me to it. | 15:59 |
| yvl | :) | 15:59 |
| menesis | but, particularly for gradebook - I would expect that current users on jaunty- would like the new release because it contains many bugfixes... | 15:59 |
| th1a | Just focus on Karmic, let me know how long you think it will take. | 15:59 |
| th1a | Hm... | 15:59 |
| th1a | Can we do a gradebook-only update? | 15:59 |
| aelkner | remember grade book now depends on lyceum jounral | 16:00 |
| yvl | We should release the current state of whole SchoolTool for Jaunty | 16:01 |
| menesis | I think we should release something that's available now, for current platforms, and make sure it is installable for karmic for those who try doing it | 16:01 |
| menesis | because our last release was on July 7 | 16:01 |
| menesis | my question - do it in the same PPA or a new one | 16:02 |
| menesis | for that I think we need Release Notes for all of the packages | 16:02 |
| menesis | to see how they are different from last stable release | 16:02 |
| th1a | If we don't want to overwrite the current version, do we need a new PPA? | 16:02 |
| th1a | Does that matter? | 16:02 |
| menesis | it's my problem | 16:03 |
| menesis | the question is do we really NOT want current users to upgrade? | 16:03 |
| th1a | Is it practical to not overwrite the current version? | 16:04 |
| th1a | Well, you don't want to push changes to deployed instances. | 16:04 |
| th1a | Imagine you're a school sys admin who has trained 30 teachers to use a gradebook which suddenly changes the week grades are due. | 16:05 |
| th1a | Never mind introducing new bugs. | 16:05 |
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| th1a | See what I mean? | 16:05 |
| dwelsh | good morning | 16:05 |
| th1a | Hi dwelsh. | 16:05 |
| dwelsh | Are we in midst of 9:30am mtg? | 16:06 |
| th1a | dwelsh: Yes. | 16:06 |
| menesis | from what I see, schooltool has little changes -- plugin initialization improvements, self contacts and contact indexing, schooltool.email, some fixes, and i18n fixes | 16:06 |
| th1a | The problem with this plan is that the more you think about it the more time I'm afraid it will end up taking. | 16:07 |
| th1a | The whole intervention package... | 16:07 |
| th1a | We could leave that out. | 16:07 |
| th1a | For jaunty versions. | 16:07 |
| menesis | that's a new package, no problem with it. if it is ready. | 16:07 |
| th1a | Let's meet tomorrow same time after yvl and menesis have looked at the Karmic issues. | 16:08 |
| yvl | deal | 16:08 |
| th1a | Whether we do a Jaunty release depends on how long that will take. | 16:08 |
| th1a | Two weeks or less, we won't bother. | 16:09 |
| yvl | you know, the more I think about it, the more I'm reluctant to release updates to Jaunty | 16:09 |
| menesis | and about school sysadmins and teachers - I don't think it makes much sense to tie our release cycle to Ubuntu releases. | 16:09 |
| th1a | Well, it will when we're *in Ubuntu*. | 16:09 |
| menesis | it would be better to line up the release date with semesters - release at the start of holidays to give them time to prepare for a new semester | 16:09 |
| th1a | Yes, but different parts of the world have different schedules anyhow. | 16:10 |
| yvl | well, we can't do that - semesters start differently globally | 16:10 |
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| menesis | because we are solving two separate problems - what goes into a new release, and for what ubuntu distros we package them | 16:10 |
| yvl | you beat me this time, th1a :) | 16:10 |
| th1a | I think going forward we'll continue doing it this way -- new SchoolTool release for new Ubuntu release, except for serious bugfixes. | 16:11 |
| th1a | We'll do that until there is a clear reason to do it differently. | 16:11 |
| th1a | The other thing about timing is that there isn't a lot of advantage to trying to push out releases right when people need them. | 16:12 |
| yvl | and I'm beginning te lean to that we start doing it with this release | 16:12 |
| th1a | Sys admins would prefer if they come out three or four months before they're going to deploy them. | 16:12 |
| th1a | yvl: Yes. | 16:12 |
| menesis | ok... | 16:12 |
| th1a | Unless we can't fix the Karmic packaging for a month. | 16:12 |
| yvl | of course, th1a | 16:13 |
| th1a | Sys admins aren't thinking "ooh, let me get the latest feature" they're thinking "this better not break." | 16:13 |
| menesis | I'm just worried that I haven't released any packages to test yet, but karmic is due out in 3 days. so we are really late already | 16:13 |
| yvl | yep | 16:14 |
| th1a | Well, yes, we pretty much are late already. | 16:14 |
| yvl | the question is, can we nail it in a week | 16:14 |
| th1a | We essentially have the code done now, except for the packages. | 16:14 |
| * yvl doesn't have an answer yet | 16:14 | |
| menesis | ok so we cut what's done now and release. | 16:14 |
| yvl | yep | 16:14 |
| th1a | Basically. | 16:15 |
| yvl | and have a "Christmas special" :) | 16:15 |
| th1a | I mean, I can quietly announce we've "released" the tarball ;-) | 16:15 |
| menesis | ok I was thinking about postponing until CHristmas but we can do a stable update for Christmas, definitely | 16:15 |
| yvl | th1a, just to be clear | 16:16 |
| menesis | I have quietly released schooltool 1.1.0 last week! | 16:16 |
| menesis | :D | 16:16 |
| yvl | wait, what? | 16:16 |
| th1a | We'll figure out the timeline tomorrow once we have a sense of how much needs to be done. | 16:16 |
| yvl | ok, deal | 16:16 |
| menesis | all the other packages need to depend schooltool >= 1.1 because of the plugin init changes | 16:17 |
| th1a | This *shouldn't* take a lot of work. | 16:17 |
| menesis | but before that there needs to be at least one 1.1 release | 16:17 |
| th1a | There aren't supposed to be big backward incompatible changes in the Zope versions. | 16:17 |
| th1a | Of course, ymmv. | 16:18 |
| menesis | oh of course 2009.04 is > 1.1 :( but that's another problem | 16:18 |
| th1a | gah. Yes... sorry about that. | 16:18 |
| th1a | There is only one package that used that numbering system though, right? | 16:19 |
| menesis | i was planning to reorganize ftp.schooltool.org since August but haven't done that still, sorry :( | 16:19 |
| menesis | yes, only one | 16:19 |
| th1a | OK, so we'll meet tomorrow to discuss timeline. | 16:20 |
| yvl | agreed | 16:20 |
| menesis | and that is easily fixable with debian epoch: 2009.04.17 < 1:1.1.0 | 16:20 |
| th1a | aelkner: What do you have left? | 16:20 |
| th1a | menesis: Good. | 16:20 |
| aelkner | schooltool.intervention now uses schooltool.email | 16:21 |
| yvl | th1a: I'll have a short update about "security descriptions" after aelkner is done | 16:21 |
| th1a | yvl OK. | 16:21 |
| aelkner | it is, however, not ready for translation | 16:21 |
| aelkner | that's the only task left for that package | 16:21 |
| menesis | I have this task in my todo list | 16:22 |
| aelkner | otherwise, i have a couple of gradebook changes and lyceum journal changes | 16:22 |
| menesis | since I've been updating all other packages' i18n | 16:22 |
| aelkner | that we agreed i'd do by the end of the month | 16:22 |
| th1a | aelkner: OK. | 16:23 |
| aelkner | i'm confident i can get them done this week | 16:23 |
| th1a | Are you confident the Phillies will win the World Series? | 16:23 |
| aelkner | Phillies in 5 :) | 16:23 |
| aelkner | the Yankees are just way to happy to have gotten this far | 16:24 |
| aelkner | they're not ready for what's coming | 16:24 |
| th1a | I'll be rooting for the Phillies. | 16:24 |
| th1a | yvl: Security descriptions? | 16:25 |
| Lumiere | I'll be rooting for snow in PA and NY to cancel games 4-5 | 16:27 |
| yvl | yes... | 16:27 |
| yvl | http://justas.pov.lt/security_descriptions/security.html | 16:27 |
| yvl | a sneak peak on how it will look | 16:27 |
| yvl | I've been bashing my head at random walls last week | 16:28 |
| yvl | but I'm pretty happy with the backbone under the description mechanism | 16:28 |
| th1a | Wow, I'll actually be able to tell you what to change now. ;-) | 16:28 |
| yvl | exactly :) | 16:28 |
| th1a | (that is, changes in the security policy) | 16:28 |
| th1a | That looks great. | 16:29 |
| yvl | these are descriptions only for schooltool core | 16:29 |
| yvl | work remaining: | 16:29 |
| yvl | descriptions for other packages | 16:29 |
| yvl | sane css (bullet points, etc.) | 16:30 |
| yvl | sane grouping | 16:30 |
| yvl | (group "actions" for wide access groups, like school administration) | 16:30 |
| yvl | some minor tweaks, like legend for "school administration" | 16:31 |
| yvl | as expanded view just looks silly: | 16:31 |
| yvl | * people in "Clercs" group | 16:31 |
| yvl | * people in "Administrators" group | 16:31 |
| yvl | * super user | 16:31 |
| yvl | on almost every item in the list | 16:31 |
| th1a | super user = site manager? | 16:32 |
| yvl | yes, that one :) | 16:32 |
| th1a | So you're saying right now, no permissions differentiate between the three. | 16:32 |
| yvl | these three form a crowd called "administration" | 16:32 |
| yvl | and a lot of permissions are granted for that crowd | 16:33 |
| th1a | The only thing is, one of the first things I'll probably want to do once I can see all this is start differentiating between the three. :-( | 16:33 |
| dwelsh | th1a... can we touch base today by phone? | 16:33 |
| th1a | Later, of course. | 16:33 |
| yvl | th1a, that's ok | 16:33 |
| dwelsh | nothing too dramatic... just want to go over "fix duplicates" approach | 16:34 |
| th1a | yvl: Good. | 16:34 |
| th1a | dwelsh: Sure. | 16:34 |
| dwelsh | (we're moving away from depracate flag) | 16:34 |
| dwelsh | (you may have different/better idea) | 16:34 |
| yvl | that was one of the stronger arguments why I wanted a flexible description backbone | 16:34 |
| yvl | because once we list all the descriptions | 16:35 |
| dwelsh | th1a: will try you this afternoon | 16:35 |
| th1a | dwelsh: OK. | 16:35 |
| *** dwelsh has left #schooltool | 16:35 | |
| yvl | all hell will brake loose with changing permissions | 16:35 |
| th1a | I hope you're prepared. ;-) | 16:35 |
| yvl | I hope I am now :) | 16:36 |
| yvl | So, as you kindly offered last Monday | 16:36 |
| yvl | and the Monday before... | 16:36 |
| yvl | can you please write descriptions and updates to the texts? | 16:36 |
| yvl | things I need: | 16:36 |
| th1a | Oh! | 16:36 |
| yvl | umm, some glossary first | 16:37 |
| yvl | the main object model items are called "groups" | 16:37 |
| yvl | ... Terms, Sections, Contacts | 16:37 |
| yvl | it would be nice to have descriptions for them | 16:38 |
| th1a | http://book.schooltool.org/htmlhelp/glossary.html | 16:38 |
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| yvl | yes, that's a good source | 16:39 |
| yvl | but I think some of the items need to be rephrased in the security description view | 16:39 |
| yvl | so if you could do that, I would be most grateful :) | 16:39 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:40 |
| th1a | Shorter, I presume. | 16:40 |
| yvl | most of them, yes | 16:40 |
| yvl | the other thing is, that some actions may be named, well, not clearly enough | 16:40 |
| * yvl has problems with naming things ;) | 16:40 | |
| th1a | Should I just go through the page and try to make it all clearer? | 16:41 |
| yvl | yes, please | 16:41 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:41 |
| yvl | actions are the bold thingies on the list | 16:41 |
| yvl | like "Create/Delete" | 16:41 |
| yvl | each of the actions can have descriptions, where needed | 16:41 |
| yvl | for example: "Modify a contact" vs "List/Search" in the "Contacts" group | 16:42 |
| aelkner | th1a: is the bag of gravel still in hand? | 16:42 |
| th1a | aelkner: You're excused. | 16:43 |
| yvl | th1a will shortly throw it at me, I guess :) | 16:43 |
| th1a | yvl: I'll get to work on the descriptions. | 16:43 |
| th1a | See most of you tomorrow... | 16:43 |
| aelkner | thk\ | 16:43 |
| aelkner | thx | 16:44 |
| th1a | Also... time change next week? | 16:44 |
| th1a | Fall back, so... | 16:44 |
| th1a | We meet an hour later UTC? | 16:44 |
| menesis | aelkner: you have pushed your new changes to gradebook and intervention to the old branch locations :( please can you "bzr push --remember lp:~aelkner/schooltool.gradebook/.... again? | 16:44 |
| yvl | th1a, we already had the time change here | 16:44 |
| th1a | Yeah, US is out of sync. | 16:45 |
| th1a | So we'll change it next week then. | 16:45 |
| th1a | 1430? | 16:45 |
| yvl | ok | 16:46 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 16:46 | |
| yvl | th1a, you have the op at #schooltool? | 16:46 |
| th1a | Go Phillies! | 16:46 |
| aelkner | yeah! | 16:47 |
| th1a | yvl: I don't actually. I think Lumiere does still. | 16:47 |
| menesis | same as always, good thing we were present at the right time today | 16:47 |
| yvl | oh, so we'll ask him next Monday :) | 16:47 |
| * th1a does not understand the intricacies of IRC. | 16:47 | |
| * yvl does not believe that ;) | 16:48 | |
| Lumiere | hi | 16:48 |
| * th1a can speak in the third person. | 16:48 | |
| th1a | That's about it. | 16:49 |
| Lumiere | opping myself | 16:49 |
| Lumiere | works ebtter if I am authenticated | 16:49 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o th1a | 16:49 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Lumiere | 16:49 | |
| yvl | ooh, can you give me op too? :) | 16:49 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o yvl | 16:49 | |
| Lumiere | yes | 16:49 |
| Lumiere | ofc | 16:50 |
| yvl | thanks :) | 16:50 |
| *** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | SchoolTool 1.0 has been released! | IRC logs at http://source.schooltool.org/irclogs/ | SchoolTool Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (15:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | Use http://paste.lisp.org/new/schooltool for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you! | Build Status: http://source.schooltool.org/buildbot" | 16:50 | |
| Lumiere | I get that right? :) | 16:50 |
| yvl | umm, EST willl change next week, right? | 16:50 |
| Lumiere | nope | 16:50 |
| Lumiere | that's why the change in UTC | 16:50 |
| Lumiere | keeps it at 9:30 EST | 16:51 |
| yvl | doh | 16:51 |
| yvl | by the way | 16:51 |
| yvl | Lumiere, can you add me to #schooltool ops list | 16:51 |
| menesis | 16:30 EET | 16:51 |
| * yvl forgot how to use irc completely, by the way | 16:51 | |
| *** yvl changes topic to "SchoolTool development | SchoolTool 1.0 has been released! | IRC logs at http://source.schooltool.org/irclogs/ | SchoolTool Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | Use http://paste.lisp.org/new/schooltool for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you! | Build Status: http://source.schooltool.org/buildbot" | 16:52 | |
| mgedmin | EST itself changes? it doesn't change the abbreviation between EST/EDT? | 16:53 |
| mgedmin | intersting | 16:54 |
| th1a | We're going from EDT to EST. | 16:54 |
| Lumiere | and someone is too lazy to fix it | 16:56 |
| Lumiere | anywayslet me try | 16:56 |
| *** Lumiere sets mode: -o yvl | 17:00 | |
| Lumiere | yvl: try /cs op #schooltool | 17:00 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o yvl | 17:00 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o yvl | 17:00 | |
| yvl | Lumiere, thank you :) | 17:00 |
| *** Lumiere sets mode: -o th1a | 17:00 | |
| *** Lumiere sets mode: -o lisppaste5 | 17:00 | |
| Lumiere | err | 17:01 |
| *** Lumiere sets mode: -o Lumiere | 17:01 | |
| yvl | bad bot! | 17:01 |
| Lumiere | had to figure out how to add a template XD | 17:01 |
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