| *** jfroche_ has quit IRC | 00:01 | |
| *** jfroche has quit IRC | 00:10 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 00:13 | |
| *** gpaci has quit IRC | 01:14 | |
| *** gpaci has joined #schooltool | 01:14 | |
| *** Fujitsu has quit IRC | 01:24 | |
| *** didymo has joined #schooltool | 01:29 | |
| *** gpaci_ has joined #schooltool | 02:03 | |
| *** gpaci has quit IRC | 02:03 | |
| *** gpaci_ has quit IRC | 02:41 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 09:00 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 09:26 | |
| *** Fujitsu has joined #schooltool | 09:30 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 09:46 | |
| *** jfroche has joined #schooltool | 10:07 | |
| *** jinty_ has left #schooltool | 10:13 | |
| *** jinty_ has quit IRC | 10:13 | |
| *** jinty has joined #schooltool | 10:18 | |
| *** jinty_ has joined #schooltool | 10:23 | |
| *** Fujitsu has quit IRC | 10:24 | |
| *** jinty has quit IRC | 10:37 | |
| *** povbot has joined #schooltool | 11:16 | |
| *** ignas has joined #schooltool | 11:28 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 11:33 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 11:53 | |
| *** didymo has quit IRC | 14:00 | |
| *** Newfie2007 has joined #schooltool | 14:42 | |
| *** ignas has quit IRC | 15:13 | |
| *** ignas has joined #schooltool | 15:14 | |
| *** mgedmin has joined #schooltool | 15:16 | |
| *** jelkner has joined #schooltool | 15:37 | |
| *** Fujitsu has joined #schooltool | 16:23 | |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 16:47 | |
| *** mgedmin has joined #schooltool | 16:47 | |
| *** Fujitsu has quit IRC | 17:07 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 17:19 | |
| *** gpaci has joined #schooltool | 18:47 | |
| *** gpaci_ has joined #schooltool | 19:01 | |
| *** gpaci has quit IRC | 19:02 | |
| *** ignas has quit IRC | 19:14 | |
| *** glyph has joined #schooltool | 20:11 | |
| jelkner | glyph: hi! | 20:43 |
|---|---|---|
| jelkner | looks like george is here and you are here | 20:44 |
| jelkner | so we could start early | 20:44 |
| jelkner | gpaci_: george, u here? | 20:44 |
| gpaci_ | jelkner: Yep. | 20:44 |
| *** gpaci_ is now known as gpaci | 20:45 | |
| jelkner | glyph signed in, but he must have stepped away... | 20:45 |
| gpaci | emacs just reminded me about the 14:00. | 20:45 |
| jelkner | ;-) | 20:45 |
| jelkner | gpaci: did the boss give the ok for saturday? | 20:45 |
| th1a | hi jelkner. | 20:46 |
| jelkner | th1: hi tom | 20:46 |
| gpaci | Yeah, I thought I sent you a private message to that effect. 11ish. | 20:46 |
| jelkner | just got back from a lunch with dwelsh and Lumiere | 20:46 |
| jelkner | hmmm | 20:46 |
| jelkner | didn't see it | 20:46 |
| gpaci | 12:01 PM. Perhaps private chats aren't persistent. | 20:46 |
| jelkner | they aren't | 20:47 |
| glyph | Hi :) | 20:48 |
| gpaci | We should do a pika-pika animation after the sprint. | 20:48 |
| gpaci | Aloha, glyph. | 20:49 |
| jelkner | ok, here is what i need to know: | 20:49 |
| jelkner | 1. what time will you folks be available on saturday? | 20:49 |
| gpaci | 11ish. EST | 20:49 |
| jelkner | 2. what should the goals be for the interns | 20:49 |
| jelkner | ? | 20:49 |
| jelkner | i can also provide an update on what i've done since last month | 20:50 |
| gpaci | Well, we'd like them to be able to actually do the work. | 20:50 |
| gpaci | So they need (1) better Python 5k177z, and (2) a better understanding of Lore. | 20:50 |
| jelkner | ok, the "they" has/will change | 20:51 |
| jelkner | since neither mounika nor mary were real familiar with python, i've asked stephan drodge to work on lore | 20:51 |
| jelkner | stephan took an AI course at school this past year taught in python | 20:52 |
| jelkner | he says he knows python well (i'll let the two of you be the judges) | 20:52 |
| jelkner | i think he will have the background and skills to be successful with this project | 20:52 |
| glyph | I am not really sure about my availability this weekend; I'm likely to be on the road between Boston and New York for a good portion of it, unfortunately. Most likely I'll be around in the mid-late afternoon. | 20:53 |
| jelkner | i can't have 3 people work on it, so either mounika or mary will be moved to ZIS/SIF | 20:53 |
| jelkner | glyph: can you make it online by 2 pm, say? | 20:54 |
| jelkner | or 3 pm? | 20:54 |
| jelkner | it looks like we will have to close up at 4 pm | 20:54 |
| gpaci | Ouch. | 20:54 |
| glyph | Hmm | 20:54 |
| glyph | When do you get started? Maybe I can get online before I leave instead. | 20:54 |
| jelkner | 9 am | 20:54 |
| jelkner | that might work best | 20:55 |
| glyph | Let's say I'll be there from 9-noon | 20:55 |
| jelkner | great | 20:55 |
| jelkner | and george can relieve you | 20:55 |
| glyph | I'll update you if I need to change, though; I can't really postpone this trip :-\ | 20:55 |
| jelkner | understood | 20:55 |
| jelkner | but please let me know soon | 20:55 |
| jelkner | in the interest of project moral, i don't want them to come in if you won't be there | 20:56 |
| jelkner | gpaci: can u be in by noon? | 20:57 |
| gpaci | Yep. | 20:57 |
| jelkner | cool | 20:57 |
| jelkner | stephan seems very confident of his skills | 20:57 |
| jelkner | i think we can build on that ;-) | 20:58 |
| glyph | That's good | 20:58 |
| gpaci | Yes, adolescent males always have an accurate self-assessment. I know I did. | 20:58 |
| jelkner | question: does it make sense to keep another intern on the project with the understanding that they would start out working on documentation? | 20:58 |
| jelkner | we need the how-to updated as things are fixed/added | 20:59 |
| gpaci | Which intern do you hate? | 20:59 |
| glyph | jelkner: Is he familiar with open source contribution protocols / procedures, or just Python programming? | 20:59 |
| jelkner | i actually *like* doing documentation! | 20:59 |
| jelkner | just python | 20:59 |
| jelkner | then again, i'm a teacher (those that can't do, document) | 21:00 |
| gpaci | Are there really 20 hours of documentation work? | 21:00 |
| jelkner | probably not, but hopefully the other intern will be learning python and contributing in other ways as well | 21:01 |
| jelkner | one of the top goals is adding LaTeX support to your book extensions, so learning LaTeX will come in handy | 21:02 |
| glyph | I'm a bit confused as to where I fit in here :). How much of the project is lore, how much is other stuff? When you're talking about documentation, is it schooltool documentation, or lore documentation? | 21:02 |
| jelkner | lore documentation | 21:03 |
| jelkner | the how-to does not even mention the book extensions at this point, for example | 21:03 |
| jelkner | glyph: i can give you 2 interns, if you can keep them busy | 21:04 |
| jelkner | that's how you fit in | 21:04 |
| glyph | jelkner: I can definitely generate work as fast as you can throw people at me :) | 21:04 |
| glyph | well, I guess if you had 100 interns I don't know if I could keep them busy on just Lore... | 21:05 |
| glyph | The biggest lesson from last time, though, is that we should decide on a goal specifically for the sprint ahead of time | 21:05 |
| jelkner | ok, so what is the goal for saturday? | 21:05 |
| jelkner | and before getting to that, you didn't answer my question yet about 1 vs. 2 interns. | 21:06 |
| jelkner | does it make sense to have someone who is still learning but can contribute to documentation, etc? | 21:06 |
| glyph | I think so. As a goal for the sprint for that intern, as you mention, there is no documentation for the book extensions | 21:08 |
| jelkner | and the goal for stephan is to begin working on LaTeX? | 21:08 |
| jelkner | or didn't you ask them to add tests first? | 21:09 |
| glyph | I did ask them to add tests. We did a little work last time, but it was mainly focused on getting them familiar with the tools. It would be a _huge_ help if stephan could be familiar with writing and running tests with trial ahead of time. | 21:09 |
| jelkner | is there a web site somewhere I can send him along with instructions to "read over this before saturday"? | 21:10 |
| jelkner | they finish finals on friday | 21:11 |
| jelkner | so by saturday their summer break begins | 21:11 |
| jelkner | they will now have plenty of time to work on the project | 21:11 |
| jelkner | are are expected to work 20 hours per week | 21:11 |
| jelkner | is there anything else? | 21:12 |
| * jelkner is waiting for web site instructions... | 21:13 | |
| glyph | Sorry, trying to find the documentation :) | 21:13 |
| glyph | Speaking of things that need to be better documented :-\ | 21:13 |
| glyph | Hoarrgg | 21:14 |
| glyph | http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/browser/branches/trial-tutorial-2443/doc/core/howto/trial.xhtml?rev=20020&format=raw | 21:14 |
| glyph | that is a fun link | 21:14 |
| jelkner | got it | 21:14 |
| glyph | It's still a work in progress, but if his python skills are as strong as he claims, it should be no problem to follow :) | 21:15 |
| gpaci | Fortunately, the Lore interns don't have to worry about scheduling and deferreds. | 21:15 |
| jelkner | cool, we can put him to the test | 21:16 |
| jelkner | ok, is that it? | 21:16 |
| gpaci | "What else floats?" | 21:16 |
| gpaci | Actually, I'm still not totally clear what I'm doing Saturday: helping them write tests? | 21:16 |
| gpaci | Helping them write docs? Giving them info? | 21:17 |
| jelkner | glyph: writing tests, first, yes? | 21:17 |
| jelkner | then starting to look into adding LaTeX support? | 21:17 |
| jelkner | using a TDD approach | 21:18 |
| jelkner | so we don't have to go back and add the test for the new stuff later | 21:18 |
| glyph | gpaci: My broad goal for this weekend is to get them to the point where they can confidently contribute patches against Twisted and put them into review | 21:18 |
| glyph | jelkner's summary is correct :) | 21:18 |
| gpaci | OK. I'm a little fuzzy on that, myself. | 21:19 |
| glyph | gpaci: We need some test coverage for existing lore functionality first; otherwise patches for new functionality will immediately get bogged down in "why didn't you test the functionality XYZ that you changed" comments | 21:19 |
| glyph | I don't have a more specific goal because I'm not sure how to scope the work for Stephan until I have heard more directly what he's capable of; it might be as simple as contributing some doc fixes using "svn diff", creating tickets in the tracker, etc, but ideally we can have some simple code changes that add tests that get reviewed and merged in the same day | 21:20 |
| gpaci | Well, one big dumb way is to capture the existing source and generated documents from Twisted itself. | 21:20 |
| glyph | gpaci: you mean verify that the output as it is now matches the output from those inputs in the future? | 21:21 |
| gpaci | Yes. End-to-end functional/customer tests. | 21:21 |
| gpaci | Then we can see if there are any more features that that doesn't exercise. | 21:21 |
| gpaci | (This is one place AOP would actually come in handy.) | 21:22 |
| gpaci | I can show them how to check for coverage by intentionally messing up statements. | 21:23 |
| glyph | I don't think that would be too helpful. Regardless of its merit qua testing, it won't get the interns more familiar with the parts of lore that need changing, and it will certainly not satisfy the other reviewers on twisted-dev ;) | 21:23 |
| glyph | gpaci: Have you used trial --coverage ? | 21:23 |
| gpaci | Nope. Didn't know it existed. That'd be the way to go. | 21:24 |
| gpaci | So let's try to sketch Saturday's testing strategy: | 21:25 |
| glyph | Intentionally messing up statements is still a good introduction to TDD though | 21:25 |
| gpaci | (Yeah; I'm always thinking about teaching technique, as opposed to making progress :-) .) | 21:25 |
| gpaci | Step 1,000: start putting together a patch at 3:00. | 21:26 |
| gpaci | Step -1: Give interns a taste of LaTeX beforehand: http://www.latex-project.org/intro.html , e.g. | 21:27 |
| glyph | So, the nice thing about lore is that it is totally full of bugs | 21:27 |
| gpaci | You guys can fill in the in-between steps. | 21:27 |
| gpaci | Yay practical experience! | 21:28 |
| glyph | A good introduction to (TDD + maintenance) is writing a failing test for one of those bugs - all we need is to find one :) | 21:28 |
| glyph | The first one I can find is http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/ticket/812 | 21:29 |
| glyph | also a good example of why the current output should not be used for testing purposes ;-) | 21:29 |
| jelkner | i'll be using lore all summer for new curriculum materials | 21:29 |
| jelkner | so i'm sure i'll help find bugs | 21:29 |
| glyph | I also want to get the other Twisted devs excited about having the interns helping out so I can spread the mentoring around a bit, and nothing gets that group more excited than fixes to long-standing bugs :) | 21:30 |
| glyph | gpaci: do you think that #812 would make a good sample bug? | 21:31 |
| gpaci | The part about letting the author suppress index links, yes. | 21:31 |
| glyph | Great. | 21:31 |
| gpaci | Although the sample doc pointed to has also moved. | 21:32 |
| gpaci | Found it: http://twisted.sourceforge.net/old_docs/TwistedDocs-1.3.0/howto/tutorial/intro.html | 21:33 |
| gpaci | Is there a better example? And where's the Lore source and the command used to generate this (/it)? | 21:34 |
| glyph | http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/browser/trunk/doc/core/howto/tutorial/index.xhtml | 21:36 |
| glyph | I assume that the command to do the generation phase would be simply 'lore' in the doc/core/howto directory | 21:37 |
| gpaci | So it would pick up the template from there. | 21:37 |
| gpaci | ("locate doc/core/howto" was a stupid thing to type...) | 21:37 |
| jelkner | ok, so i will summarize this discussion (as soon as it is finished) and send it out as an email. | 21:38 |
| jelkner | i have to go to a job related meeting in a few minutes... | 21:39 |
| jelkner | but i can check back and read the log | 21:39 |
| glyph | The only thing I have to add at this point is that I'd like to make sure that the tests we have the interns writing are as fine-grained as possible, since hopefully we will be replacing various units as the summer goes on | 21:39 |
| glyph | and it would be good if we can only modify the tests affected by the area in question as we do that | 21:40 |
| gpaci | So Saturday: (1) interns learn to submit Twisted patch, (2) interns learn how to run Lore, (3) interns tackle a sample bug, (4) interns tackle other bugs, TDD, fine-grained. | 21:40 |
| glyph | Sounds good :) | 21:40 |
| gpaci | Sí? | 21:40 |
| jelkner | muy bien! | 21:40 |
| glyph | Before then, let's exchange some emails so I can answer any questions Stephan has about the contribution process | 21:41 |
| jelkner | i'll have an email out later today | 21:41 |
| gpaci | Sounds like we're done for now. | 21:41 |
| glyph | and hopefully have him ready with a development environment and tools by saturday morning :) | 21:41 |
| jelkner | cool | 21:41 |
| jelkner | thanks! | 21:41 |
| glyph | No problem! Thanks again for encouraging these contributions to lore! :) | 21:41 |
| jelkner | cya saturday... | 21:42 |
| glyph | see you then ;) | 21:42 |
| *** glyph has left #schooltool | 21:42 | |
| *** jelkner has quit IRC | 21:42 | |
| *** jinty_ has left #schooltool | 21:51 | |
| *** jinty_ has quit IRC | 21:51 | |
| *** jinty has joined #schooltool | 21:51 | |
| *** jinty has quit IRC | 21:52 | |
| *** jinty has joined #schooltool | 21:53 | |
| *** ignas has joined #schooltool | 21:59 | |
| *** Newfie2007 has quit IRC | 22:09 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 22:59 | |
| *** ignas has quit IRC | 23:34 | |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 23:48 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!