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| * th1a shuffles some papers around. | 16:31 | |
| Lumiere | morning | 16:31 |
|---|---|---|
| ignas | hi | 16:31 |
| th1a | Hi jfroche, ignas, Lumiere, jinty | 16:31 |
| jfroche | 'afternoon | 16:32 |
| th1a | Lumiere: Want to start us off? | 16:32 |
| Lumiere | we have our last 'learning sprint' this weekend | 16:34 |
| Lumiere | intership starts a week from thursday | 16:35 |
| jfroche | what's intership ? | 16:36 |
| Lumiere | intern developers | 16:36 |
| Lumiere | CanDo's developers are a combination of hourly and stipended developers | 16:37 |
| Lumiere | developers on stipend are interns | 16:37 |
| * Lumiere notes that he doesn't have anything to do with that part | 16:37 | |
| th1a | Lumiere is their customer. | 16:38 |
| Lumiere | dwelsh is the customer | 16:38 |
| th1a | Right. | 16:38 |
| th1a | You represent dwelsh in this case. | 16:38 |
| Lumiere | I act as the day to day organization and infrastructure | 16:38 |
| Lumiere | yes | 16:38 |
| th1a | Lumiere: Anything else? | 16:39 |
| Lumiere | not really | 16:41 |
| th1a | jfroche? | 16:41 |
| jfroche | I merged with trunk & still working on the views for the grade book. | 16:41 |
| jfroche | I didn't succeed to get an apointment last week at the school with the guy in charge of the actual grade book but we meet on thursday or friday. | 16:41 |
| jfroche | About attendance I didn't looked further but as I said earlier it isn't so different from schooltool one except for some security things ("delegate" student can encode attendence). | 16:42 |
| jfroche | I will work on this as soon as we agree with the guy about the grade book and the report related to it. | 16:42 |
| jfroche | About Nicolas, he told me he is less busy now and what i would like him to do is help me to translate the missing things in the "in production" instance of schooltool | 16:43 |
| jfroche | We plan to meet this week or next week | 16:43 |
| th1a | Ah... that reminds me. | 16:43 |
| th1a | A general point: we need to transition to having more control over who does translations on Rosetta. | 16:43 |
| th1a | I'll work on that. | 16:44 |
| jfroche | at the moment i put the same system as ignas | 16:44 |
| jfroche | as we didnt have search in translations | 16:44 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:44 |
| jfroche | and as like that , i can get directly the translation viewable in the instance | 16:45 |
| th1a | That makes sense. | 16:46 |
| jfroche | and Nicolas is speaking with politics in brussels for other funding on schooltool | 16:47 |
| th1a | Ah. Good. | 16:47 |
| th1a | I was beginning to feel like Nicolas had dropped off the face of the earth. | 16:48 |
| jfroche | it seems that he got busy during the year & took to much things at the same time | 16:48 |
| jfroche | now he has less teachings i think | 16:48 |
| th1a | It happens. | 16:48 |
| th1a | jfroche: It seems like the biggest issue overall is just keeping in touch with the school. | 16:49 |
| jfroche | yep mainly now with the exams but after that it seems that he (the guy in charge) told me it would be more easy to look closer at all this | 16:51 |
| th1a | OK. Good. | 16:51 |
| th1a | jfroche: Anything else? | 16:51 |
| jfroche | and i (with Nicolas's help) need to attract them to use schooltool functionalities | 16:51 |
| jfroche | translation helps | 16:52 |
| jfroche | euh nothing else for now | 16:52 |
| th1a | Yes, translation will help ;-) | 16:52 |
| th1a | Thanks, jfroche. | 16:52 |
| th1a | ignas? | 16:52 |
| ignas | as i am not getting replys to my email, and the phone is turned off, i will be paying lyceum a surprise visit tomorrow | 16:53 |
| ignas | it might be that Bronius Skūpas is in some other country of course ... | 16:53 |
| th1a | Ach. Good idea. | 16:53 |
| ignas | in which case i will try talking to my mother as she is a Computer Science teacher too, and might be able to help me with reports | 16:54 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:54 |
| ignas | CS program in schools is one of the most complicated | 16:54 |
| th1a | I'm afraid that it seems like in the general case for this kind of project it seems like the procedure should be: | 16:54 |
| th1a | * start by finding some really motivated schools; | 16:54 |
| th1a | * use programming tools that are really widely known so you can get decent developers wherever the schools are. | 16:55 |
| ignas | yes, totally my bad :( i should have thought about that earlier, as when you think about it - if the school has nothing to lose, the motivation is not such big ... | 16:55 |
| th1a | The relationship with schools is just particularly hard. | 16:55 |
| ignas | i mean any US school that is using PowerSchool | 16:55 |
| ignas | has way more to gain from schooltool | 16:56 |
| ignas | and would be quite more interested from the finance side | 16:56 |
| ignas | as i need more information to work on attendance/gradebook... last week i worked on the scholl year switch heavily | 16:56 |
| th1a | Well, it is hard to do this with a school that has a LOT to lose if we fail... although perhaps that is the pressure that everyone needs. | 16:56 |
| ignas | well - the school at least must *need* the system | 16:57 |
| th1a | This may be true. | 16:57 |
| ignas | now i have a quite good plan on how school year switch should work and have started spiking on it | 16:57 |
| th1a | Ah! Tell us about it. | 16:58 |
| ignas | i have considered doing it in one of these ways: | 16:58 |
| ignas | SchoolYears as containers, move old objects from trunk to the schoolyear, hack traversal to schortcut to the current schoolyear. | 16:59 |
| ignas | Archival - have archive for every old school year, so all the current data stays in the root application, when archiving - you move all the archivable objects to the archive, and add new ones. | 17:00 |
| ignas | and the last one | 17:00 |
| ignas | Having school year objects related to the base content objects, while keeping everything in their original containers. | 17:00 |
| ignas | Old data would be hidden by rigging into container iteration functions and relationships. | 17:01 |
| ignas | I am going it to do with all the data being kept in the same containers. As with a sane namechooser it will work quite well. | 17:02 |
| ignas | and will not require that many significant changes to the way objects are being accessed at the moment. | 17:02 |
| Lumiere | CanDo could use this as well | 17:02 |
| ignas | CanDo will use this, sooner or later | 17:03 |
| th1a | That sounds pretty close to what Stephan and I had decided, except just using catalogs. | 17:03 |
| th1a | Lumiere: Yes, you will certainly need this. | 17:03 |
| ignas | i will have to fix relationships | 17:04 |
| ignas | so they would not show old groups for a person, but would show all persons for an old group | 17:04 |
| ignas | security policy - to make all the archived data read only | 17:04 |
| ignas | add catalogs for all the school yearable data | 17:04 |
| ignas | add school year switch code for all the schoolyearable data as well | 17:05 |
| ignas | so it's quite a significant piece of work | 17:05 |
| th1a | It is one of the scarier parts left of the basic SIS. | 17:05 |
| ignas | it's one of the mandatory parts of the basic SIS | 17:05 |
| th1a | Indeed. | 17:06 |
| ignas | i mean - have you seen a SIS that can't do that | 17:06 |
| th1a | Otherwise it is only a 1-year SIS. | 17:06 |
| Lumiere | ignas: can you give some background on it? | 17:06 |
| ignas | Lumiere: on which part? | 17:06 |
| Lumiere | like a small technical document on how you're doing schoolyears | 17:06 |
| Lumiere | to give to pcardune | 17:06 |
| ignas | not at the moment | 17:06 |
| ignas | when i will have it working | 17:07 |
| ignas | i will look at it | 17:07 |
| Lumiere | yea, when you get a chance | 17:07 |
| ignas | though - you won't really have it anyway this year | 17:07 |
| ignas | the feature freeze on trunk is july iirc | 17:07 |
| Lumiere | yep | 17:07 |
| Lumiere | pcardune's gonna need to work on it at some point | 17:07 |
| th1a | We'll get pcardune up to speed at EuroPython if nothing else. | 17:07 |
| Lumiere | k | 17:07 |
| ignas | quite nasty though, the moment we will release trunk, it will be quite outdated already ... | 17:08 |
| ignas | jinty: ayt? | 17:08 |
| Lumiere | ignas: that's normal and fien | 17:08 |
| th1a | ignas: It is still a big step in the right direction. | 17:08 |
| jinty | ignas: yep | 17:09 |
| ignas | jinty: when could we talk a bit about CanDo/SchoolTool plugability on Debian? | 17:09 |
| jinty | er, right now? | 17:09 |
| ignas | after meeting then i guess, i just wanted to know if you have time for that | 17:10 |
| jinty | ok, I should be | 17:10 |
| jinty | around then | 17:10 |
| Lumiere | the student who is learning packaging should be on soon, I'd like him to sit in on it | 17:11 |
| ignas | what kind of packaging ? | 17:12 |
| Lumiere | debian dpkgs | 17:12 |
| ignas | oh | 17:12 |
| Lumiere | he's going to be learning how to do it | 17:12 |
| ignas | i see | 17:13 |
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| ignas | anything else? | 17:14 |
| th1a | I'm going to be at conferences from the 19th to 26th, so I'm going to be getting things ready for that stretch. | 17:15 |
| th1a | And I have to do report cards here. | 17:15 |
| Lumiere | I'll be gone thursday next week to saturday :) | 17:15 |
| Lumiere | vacation! yay! | 17:15 |
| th1a | That's all I've got. | 17:16 |
| th1a | Any last words? | 17:16 |
| ignas | They can't hit an elephant from that far.... | 17:16 |
| th1a | Thank you ignas. | 17:17 |
| Lumiere | lol | 17:17 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 17:17 | |
| Lumiere | that gravel looked heavy... | 17:17 |
| th1a | Have a good week, folks! | 17:17 |
| ignas | jinty: from what i know - apache has some kinds of dependencies among plugins | 17:17 |
| ignas | thanks, you too | 17:18 |
| jinty | yes, we can have that too if each plugin is a debian binary pakage | 17:18 |
| ignas | i mean in config | 17:18 |
| ignas | as in if you don't have a plugin Loaded | 17:18 |
| ignas | you can't load or use plugins that depend on it | 17:19 |
| ignas | or something like that | 17:19 |
| jinty | ah, that'll be really difficult with zcml | 17:19 |
| ignas | well - failing is easy | 17:19 |
| ignas | but at least for sane error message | 17:20 |
| ignas | i want something like: | 17:20 |
| ignas | /etc/schooltool/available_plugins and /etc/schooltool/enabled_plugins | 17:20 |
| ignas | so that the system would know what plugins are available, and either inform the user that he has to | 17:20 |
| ignas | schooltool enable_plugin foo | 17:21 |
| ignas | or even load the dependencies automatically | 17:21 |
| ignas | would that be sane? | 17:21 |
| ignas | from debian standpoint | 17:21 |
| jinty | yeah, that was exactly what I was thinking of, but perhaps available_plugins should be in /var/lib | 17:21 |
| jinty | /usr/lib rather | 17:21 |
| ignas | hmm | 17:21 |
| ignas | maybe in more locations even like /usr/local/lib as well | 17:22 |
| jinty | as it's not really configuration that can be changed by the administator | 17:22 |
| ignas | so that users could install their own plugins from the internet (the brave ones) | 17:22 |
| jinty | yes, user installed packages should be in /usr/local/lib | 17:22 |
| jinty | pacages aren't allowed to touch /usr/local | 17:22 |
| jinty | but then, I think we need zcml slug+ zcml slug metadata | 17:23 |
| jinty | the package would drop the zcml slug in /usr/lib | 17:24 |
| jinty | along with the metadata | 17:24 |
| ignas | hmm, now would an error message like "you have CanDo2007 enabled, to use it you must enable a plugin that provides us.school, us.school_foo, and us.school_bar are available, enable one of them." | 17:24 |
| ignas | yep, i was thinking of metadata slugs too | 17:24 |
| ignas | and when enabling the plugin - the real slug would get symlinked to /etc | 17:24 |
| ignas | or something like that | 17:24 |
| jinty | exactly | 17:25 |
| jinty | and the metadata slugs would tell you what other slugs you would need | 17:25 |
| ignas | not slugs, something more high level, i want to leave the option of 2 different data stores providing same interface | 17:26 |
| ignas | so user could enable one of them | 17:26 |
| jinty | at least it would be some kind of provides mecahnism where multiple plugins could provide the same feature | 17:26 |
| jinty | yeah, what you said | 17:26 |
| ignas | ok, i'll think of how to do it then | 17:27 |
| jinty | can we perhaps implement this by zcml conditionals? | 17:27 |
| ignas | not sure about it | 17:27 |
| ignas | i don't know how much control over that we have when loading zcml | 17:28 |
| * jinty is just wondering about the need to create a whole new infrastructure | 17:28 | |
| Lumiere | I'll read the rest of this log from work... | 17:28 |
| Lumiere | *goes to get breakfast* | 17:28 |
| * ignas does not really want to have include guards for all the zcml files in the project though | 17:28 | |
| ignas | hmm | 17:28 |
| ignas | foo.browser plugins are quite straightforward | 17:28 |
| ignas | not sure about data stores | 17:29 |
| ignas | on one hand - having more data stores enabled is quite harmless | 17:29 |
| ignas | even beneficial | 17:29 |
| ignas | but we would need some way to select an active one | 17:29 |
| ignas | for browser views though - enabling more than one set of person views | 17:29 |
| jinty | yes, that is a UI issue really? | 17:29 |
| ignas | would be quite bad | 17:30 |
| ignas | yes - selecting a datastore is an UI issue | 17:30 |
| ignas | views - can't be selected that easily though | 17:30 |
| jinty | i see | 17:30 |
| ignas | if you register an adapter in Zope, you have it there | 17:30 |
| ignas | you can't say - turn off this set of views easily | 17:31 |
| ignas | and when i talked to mgedmin about it he said that even though it is possible, it would complicate the system too much to be worth it | 17:31 |
| jinty | I totally agree with mgedmin | 17:31 |
| ignas | not like typing st_enable be_yearly_reports would hurt anyone | 17:32 |
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| jinty | nope, of course there's the dependency issue between slugs | 17:32 |
| jinty | which could become a real hell with lots and lots of little slugs | 17:33 |
| ignas | i don't see problems with loading of dependencies, what i am worried about is conflicts | 17:33 |
| jinty | (eeew, unless you make the views delegate to some other componenet) | 17:33 |
| ignas | hmm, using debian and only allowing you to install be_yearly_reports or us_yearly_reports | 17:34 |
| jinty | the zcml slug metadata could only allow you to install one slug providing feature X at a time | 17:35 |
| ignas | yes | 17:35 |
| ignas | the dependency resolution application would have to be quite sophisticated though | 17:36 |
| jinty | dependency resolution always is | 17:36 |
| jinty | on another topic, zope.optionstorage? what's up with that? | 17:37 |
| ignas | it was not released with zope3.4 as an egg, so i had to package it myself to get schooltool on eggs working | 17:37 |
| ignas | but as i didn't know what metadata to put there | 17:38 |
| ignas | i made the egg available only for schooltool | 17:38 |
| ignas | it can be quite safely packaged and uploaded to the zope egg repository though i think | 17:38 |
| jinty | can we merge your work into svn.zope.org and release it there? | 17:38 |
| ignas | what work? i just copied the setup.py from some other egg and used it | 17:39 |
| jinty | having a tag for the released version would also be nice. | 17:39 |
| ignas | oh and i had to add MANIFEST.in | 17:39 |
| jinty | yeah, unfortunately it means I have to duplicate all that if I want to release it | 17:40 |
| ignas | i can send them to you if you need them | 17:40 |
| jinty | please, it would help | 17:40 |
| jinty | is it still in the "optionstorage" module? | 17:40 |
| jinty | but the egg is named zope.optionstorage | 17:41 |
| jinty | ? | 17:41 |
| ignas | it is still optionstorage module | 17:42 |
| ignas | but i added the prefix | 17:42 |
| ignas | not sure if it's a good idea | 17:42 |
| jinty | I think it needs the prefix, but it should also be in the module name | 17:43 |
| ignas | hmm, that should be discussed with Zope3 developers, because it would require them to change their code | 17:43 |
| ignas | not too difficult for schooltool, so i don't mind | 17:44 |
| jinty | yeah, I'll send a mail to zope3-dev when I get the chance | 17:44 |
| jinty | it was never released, so there's no requirement for backwards compatibility I guess | 17:45 |
| ignas | :) | 17:45 |
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