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| jfroche | ignas: hello! seems i have to define security & crowd for zope.app.onlinehelp.onlinehelp.OnlineHelp | 15:08 |
|---|---|---|
| jfroche | where do you think i should define this ? | 15:09 |
| ignas | not sure you need a separate crowd ... | 15:10 |
| ignas | what is the __parent__ for OnlineHelp instances ? | 15:10 |
| jfroche | None | 15:10 |
| ignas | oh, then yes you'll need a custom crowd | 15:11 |
| jfroche | lisppaste5: url | 15:11 |
| lisppaste5 | To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/schooltool and enter your paste. | 15:11 |
| ignas | where are help classes/ viewlets stored ? | 15:11 |
| ignas | in the filesystem that is | 15:11 |
| lisppaste5 | jfroche pasted "Traceback: crowd ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/30279 | 15:12 |
| jfroche | mean /Zope3/src/zope/app/onlinehelp/browser | 15:13 |
| ignas | mean src/schooltool/help/ | 15:14 |
| ignas | you could add a crowd.py or maybe even add the class to browser.py in there | 15:17 |
| ignas | and i don't know if you want help to be available to anyone just make that crowd always return True | 15:18 |
| jfroche | ok thanks | 15:19 |
| ignas | if it's something more complex, like if you want permissions depend on some object stored as the attribute | 15:19 |
| ignas | look at calendar permissions (they depend on relationships of their __parent__s) | 15:19 |
| jfroche | i ll begin with a simple one | 15:20 |
| jfroche | thanks for the link | 15:20 |
| jfroche | ignas: should I use AnonymousCrowd & anonymous and do a security:allow for the onlinehelp interface ? | 15:31 |
| ignas | jfroche: neat, you don't need a new crowd, just do: | 15:33 |
| ignas | <allow | 15:33 |
| ignas | interface=".interfaces.IOnlineHelp" | 15:33 |
| ignas | crowds="anonymous" | 15:33 |
| ignas | permission="schooltool.view" /> | 15:33 |
| jfroche | is it ok ? | 15:33 |
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| jfroche | uhm unfortunately not | 15:41 |
| jfroche | it does a crowd.contains(participation.principal) | 15:41 |
| jfroche | but anonymous crowd has no contains implemented | 15:41 |
| ignas | a bug | 15:42 |
| ignas | change AnonymousCrowd(Crowd) to AnonymousCrowd(_GroupCrowd) ... | 15:43 |
| jfroche | ok | 15:44 |
| jfroche | ignas: could you look at http://vauban.schooltool.jfroche.be/groups | 15:51 |
| jfroche | and click on help | 15:52 |
| jfroche | this is not the expected behaviour i guess ? | 15:52 |
| ignas | password/username ? | 15:52 |
| ignas | as the list of groups is not public | 15:52 |
| jfroche | adding you | 15:53 |
| jfroche | login: ignas | 15:55 |
| jfroche | pwd: see your mailbox | 15:55 |
| ignas | still can't see the group list | 15:56 |
| ignas | it's set to visible only to managers by default | 15:56 |
| jfroche | now | 15:56 |
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| ignas | and what seems to be non standard? the menu thingy ? | 15:58 |
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| jfroche | yep not schooltool anymore | 15:59 |
| jfroche | if you click on "Person Container - Contents" | 16:00 |
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| jfroche | you get the schooltool helpfile | 16:00 |
| ignas | hmm, seems to be related to the usage of tal templates as the help file | 16:03 |
| ignas | try debuging getContextualTopicView | 16:03 |
| ignas | and seeing what view class is used in the RST case and what class is used in pt case | 16:04 |
| jfroche | ok | 16:05 |
| ignas | and look at zcml declarations in configure.zcml | 16:05 |
| ignas | there seem to be 2 different views index.html and contexthelp.html | 16:05 |
| ignas | maybe you have registered the thing as OnlineHelp and shyould have used OnlineHelpTopic ? | 16:06 |
| jfroche | rst uses helptopic.pt src/schooltool/help ; pt uses /Zope3/src/zope/app/onlinehelp/browser/onlinehelp_macros.pt | 16:08 |
| jfroche | i prefer the one in Zope3/src/zope/app/onlinehelp/browser/onlinehelp_macros.pt as you can use a menu there | 16:09 |
| ignas | well, you can make them use the same style | 16:10 |
| ignas | though maybe including a macro for online_help for schooltool | 16:10 |
| ignas | in the schooltool skin would be better | 16:11 |
| ignas | as you could style it to match the visual style of schooltool | 16:11 |
| jfroche | nice, i ll do that then | 16:11 |
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| * th1a shuffles some papers | 16:30 | |
| th1a | How's it going everyone? | 16:30 |
| ignas | so so | 16:31 |
| th1a | Hi ignas. | 16:31 |
| ignas | hi | 16:32 |
| th1a | jfroche? | 16:32 |
| th1a | jinty? | 16:32 |
| jfroche | hello th1a | 16:32 |
| th1a | So what's up in Vilnius, ignas? | 16:33 |
| ignas | everything's too slow for my liking, lyceum is still in the process of reviewing contract :/ | 16:33 |
| ignas | i have started working on event refactoring | 16:33 |
| ignas | so now i have events comming from both sources | 16:33 |
| ignas | timetable and section calendar | 16:33 |
| ignas | and it even works | 16:34 |
| ignas | so there is booking for individual events | 16:34 |
| th1a | Excellent. | 16:34 |
| ignas | what's missing is all the dynamic updates for these events | 16:34 |
| ignas | and the edit from tuned for timetable event :/ | 16:34 |
| ignas | got a bit stuck on it | 16:34 |
| ignas | too much editform/addform magic | 16:35 |
| th1a | What are the cases for dynamic updates? | 16:35 |
| ignas | well, when you update term - events should be moved around a bit | 16:35 |
| jinty | hi all | 16:35 |
| th1a | HI jinty. | 16:35 |
| ignas | when you add/remove activities events should get removed, added | 16:35 |
| th1a | Yes, there would be some magic there. | 16:37 |
| th1a | jfroche: How have things been going for you? | 16:37 |
| jfroche | hello th1a i am diving into onlinehelp | 16:38 |
| jfroche | skinning the pt view of online help | 16:38 |
| jfroche | to get translation of onlinehelp | 16:38 |
| jfroche | onlinehelp is important for Denis and Nicolas | 16:38 |
| jfroche | so that they will be able to add more help file | 16:38 |
| jfroche | in french | 16:38 |
| jfroche | except that no news from authorities | 16:39 |
| jfroche | got my emails ? | 16:39 |
| th1a | Hm... yes I'm just reading them right now. | 16:39 |
| th1a | I'm afraid my sleep schedule is out of whack again, and I'm rolling out of bed right before the meeting ;-) | 16:39 |
| jfroche | :) | 16:40 |
| th1a | So yeah, we should also discuss the specific goals for your meeting with ignas. | 16:40 |
| ignas | not that i had much time to think about it | 16:40 |
| th1a | And I can email Mark about the Malone thing if I know what file I should be pointing them to. | 16:41 |
| ignas | it will depend on my progress with academical groups and timetables | 16:41 |
| th1a | ignas: That makes two of us, but we should brainstorm. | 16:41 |
| jfroche | what would be a major step for schooltool users ? | 16:41 |
| th1a | jfroche: Are you making progress on the help translation front? | 16:42 |
| ignas | th1a: one thing might be the gradebook, yet it's a bit too much for 2-3 days of work ... | 16:42 |
| jfroche | in general i have the new french translation installed on the 3 schooltool instances | 16:42 |
| jfroche | i have to explain to Denis and Nicolas how they can translate the string that are not translated yet | 16:43 |
| ignas | th1a: i was thinking of looking at the requirements of jfroche's schools as well | 16:43 |
| ignas | so i could help jfroche to start working on them | 16:43 |
| ignas | if there will be any concrete things | 16:43 |
| ignas | th1a: now that i think about it - refactoring person stuff into something sane maybe ... | 16:44 |
| th1a | ignas: I was thinking the same thing. | 16:44 |
| ignas | the default idea of "title" is driving me nuts | 16:44 |
| th1a | Indeed. | 16:44 |
| th1a | Person is a good place to start. | 16:44 |
| ignas | and demographics didn't actually touch that piece | 16:45 |
| jfroche | by the way in person : "full name" shouldnt it computed ? | 16:45 |
| ignas | jfroche: yes it should, yet - it is not because of a lot of historical reasons | 16:45 |
| ignas | like sorts by titloe | 16:45 |
| ignas | title | 16:45 |
| jfroche | ok | 16:45 |
| ignas | name and surname being in the nameinfo attribute of a person | 16:45 |
| ignas | and sanitizing that part of application would be a nice thing to do | 16:46 |
| th1a | It's one of the pieces people interact with first and most often. | 16:46 |
| th1a | If you both could figure out what demographic data your schools need, you could work on that, too. | 16:46 |
| ignas | csv import forms for persons don't make much sense too at the moment | 16:47 |
| ignas | th1a: i would like to have a sane base class for person first | 16:47 |
| th1a | OK. Sane persons, then. | 16:47 |
| mgedmin | ISanePerson looks as if you pressed shift instead of n | 16:48 |
| th1a | What day's your flight, ignas? | 16:49 |
| ignas | 28th | 16:50 |
| ignas | back on Dec 2 | 16:50 |
| th1a | OK, so we can discuss the agenda next week as well. | 16:51 |
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| th1a | Discuss the goals for the meeting. | 16:52 |
| th1a | But focusing on Person is a good overarching goal. | 16:52 |
| jfroche | th1a: tomorrow and wednesday (mainly wednesday) i will be away | 16:52 |
| jfroche | there is Plone conference in Belgium and I am speaker | 16:52 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:52 |
| th1a | This is a holiday week Thursday & Friday here (Thanksgiving). | 16:53 |
| th1a | I'll be around though. We aren't traveling this year. | 16:53 |
| jfroche | ok | 16:54 |
| th1a | jfroche: Just to be clear, do you know what your next steps are with this help transation stuff, or are you stuck? | 16:54 |
| jfroche | yep i have clear idea of what i have to do | 16:54 |
| jfroche | ignas: helps me a lot when i am stuck | 16:54 |
| th1a | Yes, I'm glad to see you two working together. | 16:55 |
| th1a | We've always had a lot less of that than I thought we ought to. | 16:55 |
| th1a | It seems to be a side effect of hiring separate teams of contractors. | 16:55 |
| jfroche | i am very excited 'cause i learn a lot from z3 | 16:55 |
| th1a | Excited is good. | 16:56 |
| th1a | So there will be a brief CanDo meeting today in three hours... I guess 1800 UTC. | 16:57 |
| ignas | that one is easy to fix ;) | 16:57 |
| th1a | ignas: With SchoolTool, the first step is a killer. | 16:57 |
| th1a | So if either of you are still around, it would be a chance to say 'hi.' | 16:58 |
| th1a | Should I give a little historical context for CanDo? | 16:59 |
| ignas | would be useful i guess | 17:00 |
| th1a | OK, the cast of characters: | 17:00 |
| th1a | jelkner = Jeff Elkner | 17:00 |
| th1a | He's a long time teacher of Python programming at Arlington High School outside Washington DC. | 17:01 |
| th1a | dwelsh = David Welsh | 17:01 |
| th1a | Whoops (Jeff's school is Yorktown High School) | 17:01 |
| th1a | Dave Welsh is a TV & media production (something like that) teacher at the Arlington Career Academy. | 17:02 |
| th1a | pcardune = Paul Carduner | 17:02 |
| th1a | He's a former student of Jeff's, college student now, lead developer of CanDo and a very slick programmer. | 17:02 |
| th1a | Very fast and good on the web design side of things, too. | 17:03 |
| th1a | Then there is eldar = Eldar (long last name I can't spell) | 17:04 |
| th1a | He's a current student of Jeff's, a senior. Has worked on CanDo for a couple years. | 17:04 |
| th1a | Will Dickerson is a junior and an up and coming SchoolTool developer. | 17:04 |
| th1a | And eukreign is Lex, | 17:04 |
| th1a | another former student of Jeff's who is a professional Zope programmer and now doing some paid work on CanDo. | 17:05 |
| th1a | So CanDo was started, like, three years ago to help dwelsh do competency tracking. | 17:05 |
| th1a | In his program, everything is broken down to specific skills his students have to acquire. | 17:06 |
| th1a | "Putting the battery in the camera." etc. | 17:06 |
| th1a | They're so detailed, it is basically impossible without an automated system. It is a common need. | 17:07 |
| th1a | So Dave got together with Jeff and they started putting Jeff's best students on the problem. | 17:07 |
| th1a | I met Jeff at PyCon right after I got this job, and sold him on SchoolTool. | 17:07 |
| th1a | Now, two years later, CanDo is being used in several schools, and more importantly, they've secured several streams of grant funding. | 17:08 |
| th1a | From state, local, and potentially national sources. | 17:08 |
| th1a | Being right next to Washington, DC, has some advantages for that kind of thing. | 17:09 |
| th1a | They've been really successful because they've been able to keep things close to the users and get the kind of rapid feedback you want with XP. | 17:09 |
| th1a | And dwelsh is a great XP customer. | 17:09 |
| th1a | He's played that role very well. | 17:10 |
| th1a | He's also a great salesman and evangelist, so he's really promoted CanDo locally and gotten the funding to really get this going. | 17:10 |
| th1a | So at this point, they're close to having met their core requirements and are wondering what to do next. | 17:11 |
| jfroche | why does schooltool and cando are so separeted projects ? | 17:11 |
| th1a | That's where that email I forwarded to you on Friday came in. | 17:11 |
| ignas | jfroche: different sources, totally different goals even ... | 17:12 |
| th1a | Well, competency tracking isn't one of our immediate objectives. | 17:12 |
| ignas | the initial idea of schooltool was emm, and "interesting" one | 17:12 |
| ignas | from my view point | 17:12 |
| ignas | and it affected a lot of design/management decisions | 17:12 |
| th1a | Impractically broad. | 17:12 |
| ignas | even the platform choice | 17:12 |
| th1a | Mark doesn't think small. | 17:13 |
| th1a | But what I've always imagined is a SchoolTool ecosystem like the Plone ecosystem, | 17:13 |
| th1a | where we'll have lots of third party products. | 17:14 |
| ignas | how old is plone ? | 17:14 |
| ignas | how many developers worked on plone ? | 17:14 |
| jfroche | 4 years | 17:14 |
| jfroche | a lot | 17:14 |
| th1a | Plone is what, five years old? And its built directly on Zope CMS. | 17:14 |
| th1a | CMF. | 17:14 |
| th1a | I mean. | 17:14 |
| ignas | were these people familiar with other CMS'es i mean like have built them before at least a few times ? | 17:15 |
| th1a | Which had a few years of development in it. | 17:15 |
| ignas | building a framework for applications without the actual experience of building applications is very difficult :/ | 17:15 |
| ignas | i am putting a lot of hopes into the GROK idea | 17:16 |
| th1a | Anyhow, as I was pointing out in that email on Friday, CanDo is sort of running ahead of the rest of SchoolTool, since they're able to focus on functionality for one school, | 17:16 |
| th1a | instead of worrying about things like i18n in help files. | 17:16 |
| th1a | ignas: Yes, I'm really, really hoping we can integrate GROK. | 17:16 |
| th1a | That may save our ass. | 17:16 |
| ignas | what ? GROK or extra resources from CanDo ? | 17:17 |
| th1a | Both, actually. | 17:17 |
| jfroche | guess they know very well schooltool ? | 17:18 |
| ignas | well, it will be at least a year or so until we can think about GROK i'd say ... | 17:18 |
| th1a | Oh... I just remembered, the CanDo talk later today is actually a phone call, not an IRC chat. | 17:18 |
| ignas | :) | 17:18 |
| th1a | Part of working with teachers. | 17:19 |
| th1a | They tend to not use IRC. | 17:19 |
| th1a | Anyhow, I had a phone call with jelkner and dwelsh on Friday. | 17:19 |
| th1a | dwelsh suggested that they should focus on resource booking for a while, because it is an issue that is important to him and the rest of his school. | 17:20 |
| th1a | A career academy has lots of equipment to keep track of. | 17:20 |
| ignas | hmm | 17:20 |
| ignas | timetables + resources or calendars + resources ? | 17:21 |
| th1a | So they should be able to breally flesh out that functionality which we've left about 80% done. | 17:21 |
| th1a | ignas: It really needs to be both. | 17:21 |
| th1a | So I told him your refactoring will be shaking out. | 17:21 |
| th1a | Perhaps in the short run they can focus on calendars. | 17:22 |
| th1a | Events. | 17:22 |
| ignas | in that case if they want some guidance i can always branch out my refactoring and try to accomodate any help on specific things they can provide | 17:22 |
| ignas | just that some design decisions seem difficult to me, and i am not sure i can easily delegate them :/ | 17:22 |
| ignas | if they would come up with specific requirements for the system | 17:23 |
| ignas | i think i could guide them in the direction most useful for schooltool core ... | 17:24 |
| th1a | Well, the question becomes how to coordinate this. | 17:24 |
| th1a | There is plenty of UI level stuff that could be done for resource booking. | 17:24 |
| ignas | most of it is difficult without touching the underlying mechanics ... | 17:25 |
| ignas | what examples of UI stuff you have in mind ? | 17:25 |
| ignas | pagination of resources in booking views | 17:26 |
| th1a | Well, I'm not sure exactly what Dave would want. | 17:26 |
| ignas | filtering by resource type (available or not) ? | 17:26 |
| ignas | classes for different equipment | 17:26 |
| th1a | The idea is still to take me out of the job of guessing requirements. | 17:26 |
| ignas | so as soon as they'll know what they need improved | 17:27 |
| ignas | i'll help them with whatever i can ... | 17:27 |
| th1a | So I guess we have to figure out how to get the conversation going between you and dwelsh and his programmers. | 17:27 |
| ignas | not sure what's involved | 17:27 |
| th1a | Are you OK with talking on the phone in English? | 17:27 |
| ignas | not that i have tried doing that ;) | 17:27 |
| th1a | I'll discuss setting up a call today when I talk to dwelsh. | 17:28 |
| ignas | ok | 17:29 |
| th1a | Last thing... | 17:29 |
| th1a | It seems like we need to set a deadline for these schools to make a decision. | 17:29 |
| th1a | I suppose we should have done that all along. | 17:29 |
| th1a | But I need to send a budget to Mark for next year. | 17:30 |
| th1a | Can we tell the schools we need a decision by Dec. 8th? | 17:30 |
| ignas | ok | 17:31 |
| ignas | maybe that would work. It's partially my fault :/ i am finding it difficult to concentrate on multiple things at the same time so i am either talking and organizing or programming ... | 17:31 |
| jfroche | ok for me too, i have other school ready that doesn't need such authorizations | 17:31 |
| th1a | La Futaie? | 17:31 |
| jfroche | another one | 17:31 |
| th1a | A third mystery school? | 17:31 |
| jfroche | spoke with political who have school near to Charleroi | 17:32 |
| jfroche | he will be able to push me | 17:32 |
| th1a | political? | 17:32 |
| th1a | Politician? | 17:32 |
| jfroche | right | 17:32 |
| th1a | Is this a private school? | 17:33 |
| jfroche | but i would like first to try 100% for Denis school | 17:33 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:33 |
| jfroche | kind of, it doesn't depend on higher layers for such decisions | 17:33 |
| th1a | But basically, we know you'll have *somebody* to work with next year. | 17:33 |
| th1a | Which is helpful for everyone concerned. | 17:34 |
| th1a | OK. I think that's it. | 17:34 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 17:34 | |
| jfroche | you want me to announce it to Denis / Nico ? | 17:35 |
| th1a | Yes, please. | 17:35 |
| th1a | Wait, what's "it?" | 17:35 |
| jfroche | sorry ? | 17:36 |
| th1a | Announce the deadline or the new school. | 17:38 |
| jfroche | announce the deadline | 17:38 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:39 |
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| th1a | How'd things go on Saturday, aelkner | 17:42 |
| aelkner | Will and I started building messages with the register message. We also started doing doctests. Then we looked at your code, and I taought him how servers work. | 17:44 |
| aelkner | We could use some more design then we have a the moment. | 17:45 |
| aelkner | Particularly, in the end we should have a message builder module that can be used by both the ZIS and any agent. | 17:45 |
| th1a | Yes, in the long run. | 17:46 |
| aelkner | Another idea would be to have a document that breaks down the SIF spec into the messages that need be passed around. | 17:47 |
| th1a | In the short run, I wouldn't mind having two independent implementations, because you're actually testing two implementations of the spec. | 17:47 |
| aelkner | There is so much verbage there that we don';t need to write code. | 17:47 |
| aelkner | Ok. | 17:47 |
| aelkner | We can develop our code completely independently if you like. | 17:48 |
| th1a | Frankly, I don't feel super strongly about it either way. | 17:48 |
| aelkner | Will is coming into class at 10:56 and will be joining us here. | 17:48 |
| aelkner | I'm still restling with two technical issues: 1) the fact that the svn co doesn't work on our server. 2) the import transaction problem | 17:50 |
| aelkner | thla: isn't the python-zodb part of zope's source? I don't find anything when I do a find . -name 'transaction.*' from the /usr/local/src/Zope3. | 17:56 |
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| wdickers | are you there aelkner? | 17:57 |
| aelkner | Hey Will. | 17:57 |
| wdickers | Hello. Where did we leave off Saturday? | 17:58 |
| aelkner | I moved the source over to maddog, so we don't have to fix our svn problem ther for now. | 17:58 |
| aelkner | We still have the import transaction problem which I was looking into presently. | 17:58 |
| aelkner | It's in my home directory, BTW. | 18:00 |
| wdickers | alright, I'm there | 18:00 |
| th1a | Hi wdickers. | 18:02 |
| aelkner | It looks like we're going to need sudo priveledges to install lxml there. | 18:02 |
| aelkner | Tom, how does zope work without the zodb? | 18:03 |
| aelkner | Will, Jeff said the machine her found for maddog was a sparc, isn't that right? | 18:04 |
| th1a | aelkner: What do you mean "how?" | 18:04 |
| th1a | How well? | 18:04 |
| wdickers | Umm, I don't remember. I thought it was Solaris though | 18:04 |
| wdickers | hello | 18:05 |
| th1a | Or does it? | 18:05 |
| aelkner | I tried to find transaction.* in the Zope3 source and got nothing. That's why I was wondering how Zope3 worked. | 18:06 |
| aelkner | The good news is that I have sudo priveleges on maddog. | 18:07 |
| wdickers | Oh, you do? That's good news | 18:07 |
| aelkner | Yeh, I'm looking into installing lxml now. | 18:09 |
| th1a | There is some weird and somewhat controversial reason transaction is a top level import instead of zodb.transaction or whatever you'd expect it to be. | 18:11 |
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| aelkner | I wish I knew where tranaction.py was so we could alter our pythonpath to find it. | 18:13 |
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| aelkner | What does one do when "sudo apt-get install python-lxml" does nothing an returns the command prompt? | 18:15 |
| wdickers | Are you sure you have sudo privelidges? | 18:16 |
| wdickers | Maybe you could download it from here? | 18:17 |
| wdickers | http://cvs.zope.org/Zope/lib/python/transaction/ | 18:17 |
| aelkner | Could you do the download and copy it over to maddog? | 18:17 |
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| wdickers | Lemme try | 18:19 |
| aelkner | It's weird, but it looks like I'm not in the sudoers file after all. Strange that it didn't complain when I did a "sudo su -". | 18:20 |
| wdickers | It doesn't for me either, I input my password, but it just goes right back to my account | 18:21 |
| aelkner | Weird. | 18:22 |
| aelkner | How's the download going? | 18:24 |
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| wdickers | Yeah. And I'm not sure if that's the right package. Because the file only says 'import transaction' and then uses 'transaction.commit' and the only commit I can find is in the file transaction.py and the class Transaction | 18:24 |
| aelkner | Could you copy it over to maddog so that I can look at it? | 18:25 |
| wdickers | wait, nvm, it's in the __init__.py | 18:25 |
| wdickers | sure | 18:25 |
| aelkner | your home dir is fine for now. | 18:25 |
| aelkner | I'm going to look into copying lxml over from my machine. | 18:26 |
| wdickers | It's in there, but I'm not sure about untarring it | 18:27 |
| aelkner | If it's in your home directory, you should be ok to untar it. | 18:29 |
| wdickers | Yeah, but I think there's nothing in it or something | 18:30 |
| wdickers | There, I changed the permissions, you try to untar it | 18:31 |
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| aelkner | Yeh, it just returns the command prompt, right? | 18:33 |
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| aelkner | I'm going to copy lxml and transaction from my machine into the tinyzis directory in my account. This way we don't need Jeff for sudo priveleges. | 18:34 |
| wdickers | Yeah | 18:35 |
| wdickers | I thought lxml had to be installed? | 18:35 |
| aelkner | Yeh, I copied the lxml directory to the tinyzis directory for now since we don't have sudo rights. | 18:38 |
| aelkner | Try python agentTests.py. | 18:38 |
| wdickers | nope, failure getting lxml | 18:40 |
| aelkner | Me, too. I have no idea what ELF file data is. | 18:40 |
| wdickers | Well in the lxml package you have to use ./install or something like that | 18:41 |
| wdickers | well I'm off. See you tomorrow | 18:41 |
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| aelkner | Jeff, could I get sudo rights on maddog, please? I need to apt-get install stuff. | 19:40 |
| jelkner | aelkner: what do you need? | 19:40 |
| jelkner | i can install for you | 19:40 |
| aelkner | python-lxml and python-zodb. | 19:40 |
| jelkner | aelkner: python-lxml - done | 19:42 |
| jelkner | E: Couldn't find package python-zodb | 19:42 |
| aelkner | If you google it, you'll find debian packages out there. | 19:43 |
| jelkner | ok, i just installed python2.4-zodb | 19:44 |
| aelkner | Tom, should I be getting "No handlers found for logger ZODB.FileStorage" when I run tz-run.py? | 19:45 |
| aelkner | Jeff, it might be that we need to install one more package. Let's see what Tom says. | 19:46 |
| aelkner | I am getting "SecureZISServer successfully started." after the error message, so maybe we can proceed in the meantime without loging. | 19:47 |
| aelkner | Jeff, whn I use vi, I get options followed by hit enter to continue before it opens the file. Do you know why? | 19:50 |
| jelkner | ok, i was on the phone with welsh, but now i'm back | 19:56 |
| jelkner | eukreign: hey lex, are you here? | 19:56 |
| eukreign | yes | 19:57 |
| eukreign | i'm always here :-D | 19:57 |
| jelkner | great! | 19:57 |
| jelkner | could you and paul start off the meeting by summarizing the cando06 bug situation? | 19:58 |
| th1a | aelkner: That comes up occasionally, I'm not sure what its practical significance is. | 19:58 |
| aelkner | thla: if it's not a problam, | 19:58 |
| aelkner | I won't worry about it. | 19:58 |
| th1a | aelkner: I think it is referring to the ZODB's logging not TinyZIS's. | 19:58 |
| aelkner | right. I thought maybe we need one more package. | 19:59 |
| eukreign | me and paul plan on meeting up tomorrow afternoon to work on bugs, that's all i know | 19:59 |
| * jelkner is on the phone w paul carduner | 20:01 | |
| jelkner | he is having network issues | 20:01 |
| jelkner | i'll type for him until he can connect | 20:02 |
| jelkner | To begin - status of CanDo06 bugs | 20:02 |
| jelkner | paul thinks he and lex can squash all outstanding 06 bugs by tomorrow. | 20:03 |
| jelkner | next iteam: the journaling system | 20:04 |
| jelkner | eldar spent much of yesterday working on it | 20:04 |
| th1a | Are we doing this here or on the phone? | 20:04 |
| jelkner | he says it needs to be rewritten from the ground up | 20:05 |
| jelkner | th1a: here | 20:05 |
| th1a | ignas: ayt? | 20:05 |
| ignas | yes | 20:05 |
| jelkner | i can't explain why that is so, and eldar isn't here | 20:06 |
| jelkner | so the important thing is getting eldar and paul communicating | 20:06 |
| jelkner | for now, i agreed to stop using the journaling system until they figure out what to do | 20:06 |
| th1a | ignas: (the journaling system is kind of like a weblog in CanDo) | 20:07 |
| ignas | weblog ? | 20:07 |
| jelkner | we are looking for 3 things: | 20:07 |
| jelkner | blogs | 20:07 |
| jelkner | journals | 20:08 |
| jelkner | forums | 20:08 |
| th1a | You want all three? | 20:08 |
| ignas | hmm | 20:08 |
| jelkner | forums will be used for whole class discussions | 20:08 |
| ignas | lyceum wanted something like a messaging system built into schooltool iirc | 20:08 |
| th1a | The distinction between forums and blogs in this kind of system gets confusing. | 20:08 |
| jelkner | journals for direct student-teacher communication | 20:08 |
| jelkner | and blogs for students to personally post notes, collaborate with other students, etc | 20:09 |
| jelkner | in the journal, i need some kind of queuing system, that notifies me when there are journals to read | 20:09 |
| jelkner | i don't want to have to scan all 100+ journals each time i grade | 20:10 |
| aelkner | jelkner: why can't the blog be used to do what you have planned for the forum? | 20:10 |
| ignas | is developing a custom forum for schooltool really nescessary ? i mean aren't there Zope3 alternatives for that that might be integrated ? | 20:12 |
| ignas | as for the journal, won't simple mailing built into schooltool work? | 20:12 |
| jelkner | see the following on launchpad: https://features.launchpad.net/products/cando/+spec/journal-entry-queue-system | 20:13 |
| ignas | with email notifications about important messages if necessary ... | 20:13 |
| jelkner | https://features.launchpad.net/products/cando/+spec/journal-update-notification | 20:13 |
| th1a | I don't know that there are polished Zope 3 forums at this point. | 20:13 |
| jelkner | ignas: this has to be dead easy for the teacher and student to use | 20:14 |
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| pcardune | yay! | 20:14 |
| jelkner | email is not a good way to do this | 20:14 |
| ignas | jelkner: i know, that's why i was thinking of something like private person 2 person messages + ability to "push" important announcments in some more intrusive way ... | 20:14 |
| jelkner | i see a session working like this: teacher log into schooltool and is presented with a "queueu" of things to be done | 20:14 |
| ignas | yes, new messages in his inbox ... how would journal be easier ? | 20:15 |
| ignas | inbox being not email inbox | 20:15 |
| ignas | being schooltool inbox | 20:15 |
| th1a | Teachers aren't necessarily good at sorting a lot of email. | 20:15 |
| jelkner | this would be threaded | 20:16 |
| jelkner | the second feature request was for students to be able to check a box in there journal labelled "submit for review" | 20:16 |
| jelkner | that way they choose with the click of a single button when to alert the teacher that they need to do something | 20:17 |
| jelkner | also, as the system becomes more refined, the journal entry could be linked to specifc competencies or skill drivers | 20:17 |
| ignas | i see | 20:17 |
| jelkner | then another click of a single button could take the teacher to the grading screen | 20:17 |
| jelkner | our experience is that teachers (like me ;-) will only use cando if it really saves them time | 20:18 |
| jelkner | this whole process needs to be *fast* | 20:18 |
| pcardune | you could even have a mini grading widget for the related skill driver or competency | 20:18 |
| pcardune | right next to the journal entry | 20:19 |
| jelkner | now you are talking! ;-) | 20:19 |
| jelkner | ok, i think that covers journalling for now | 20:19 |
| jelkner | who should paul talk to about this once he touches base with eldar? | 20:20 |
| pcardune | We would want to develop a queing interface that is accessible to schooltool components | 20:21 |
| jelkner | pcardune: can you run whatever you are thinking about by ignas before you start? | 20:21 |
| pcardune | sure | 20:22 |
| jelkner | ok, i only have 9 minutes until i have to leave to my appointment | 20:22 |
| ignas | not sure i can be of much use though, as this one is closely integrated with CanDo functionality | 20:22 |
| jelkner | ignas: i understand, but just to keep you in the loop | 20:22 |
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| jelkner | let me share a few things before i go | 20:22 |
| pcardune | well there are two things... linking competencies to journal entries, which is cando specific, and having a queu of things to do (could be useful in schooltool) | 20:23 |
| pcardune | that was just an aside to ignas | 20:23 |
| pcardune | please continue | 20:23 |
| jelkner | 1. welsh and i disagree on the importance of doctest quiz | 20:23 |
| th1a | journals in general could be a generic SchoolTool component. | 20:23 |
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| jelkner | i think i can bring him around, but it is a priority for me | 20:24 |
| jelkner | we worked on it last summer but it has been dormant since then | 20:24 |
| jelkner | i want to figure out how to actually make it usable | 20:24 |
| jelkner | i love using doctests linked explicitely to python programming competencies in my classes | 20:25 |
| jelkner | i want a way to automate that in cando | 20:25 |
| jelkner | the only real question is who should work on that? | 20:25 |
| pcardune | expand on the existing feature specification | 20:25 |
| jelkner | i will | 20:25 |
| jelkner | is that an eldar task? | 20:25 |
| pcardune | if he wants to | 20:25 |
| jelkner | if we get the 06 bugs under control does it make sense for paul and lex to do journalling and have eldar do doctest? | 20:26 |
| pcardune | he has the skills to do it I think, and if not he can ask me or anyone else | 20:26 |
| pcardune | that works for me | 20:26 |
| th1a | ignas: The doctest quiz is a component that allows Jeff to create online programming assignments in the form of doctests that are graded automatically. | 20:26 |
| ignas | th1a: is it safe? | 20:27 |
| jelkner | ignas: yes, and it rocks! | 20:27 |
| pcardune | jelkner, the problem with doctest is that it wont expand cando's user base | 20:27 |
| jelkner | pcardune: not quite true | 20:27 |
| pcardune | (as much as other features) | 20:27 |
| jelkner | we need to show cando begin used on the evaluation end of the competency equation | 20:27 |
| th1a | ignas: Not entirely in my opinion, but it is accessible only to jelkner's students so if they do a dos attack or something, they're his to punish. | 20:27 |
| ignas | jelkner: how do you protect from sys.exit() | 20:28 |
| jelkner | the reality is, that only i will be doing that this year | 20:28 |
| jelkner | and i'll be using doctests | 20:28 |
| pcardune | ignas, it uses zope's restricted python | 20:28 |
| ignas | pcardune: oh | 20:28 |
| jelkner | same mechanism that allowed for python scripts in zope2 | 20:28 |
| ignas | i see | 20:28 |
| pcardune | jelkner: what about all the people at the career center who are doing competency evaluation? | 20:29 |
| th1a | dwelsh is also interested in really finishing the resource booking component, which would of course be very useful to us. | 20:29 |
| jelkner | yes | 20:29 |
| jelkner | that brings us to the last big agenda item | 20:29 |
| pcardune | how to get more developers? | 20:30 |
| jelkner | which i have 2 minutes to summarize, and then you all can take if from there | 20:30 |
| jelkner | 1. we want to get more involved with schooltool proper | 20:30 |
| jelkner | we agreed with tom yesterday that aps needs two things from schooltool immediately: | 20:30 |
| jelkner | 1. resource management | 20:31 |
| jelkner | 2. sif | 20:31 |
| jelkner | tom, alan, and will are already working on sif | 20:31 |
| aelkner | I will take the task of writing sif agents. | 20:31 |
| jelkner | so we need folks to work on resource management | 20:31 |
| jelkner | the last thing is bringing in new blood | 20:32 |
| jelkner | i've been having discussions with tj science and tech about partnering with them | 20:32 |
| jelkner | we will have to see how that goes, but we need to be ready to do some more training (paul, u ready for another on-line zope3 class?) if it does | 20:33 |
| jelkner | i've got to run | 20:33 |
| jelkner | same time next week | 20:33 |
| pcardune | i suppose so | 20:33 |
| jelkner | pcardune: don't sound so enthused! ;-) | 20:33 |
| jelkner | this time we will limit it to developers on the project | 20:34 |
| jelkner | so it should go better | 20:34 |
| jelkner | ok, gotta run... | 20:34 |
| pcardune | yes | 20:34 |
| pcardune | bye | 20:34 |
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| th1a | So one thing we have to decide is who is going to work out how to do properly threaded HTTP requests from a SchoolTool instance, and when that task should come up in the sequence for SIF development. | 20:35 |
| ignas | th1a: what is the most basic operation that schooltool will find useful from sif ? | 20:36 |
| th1a | Keeping users in sync with other apps. | 20:37 |
| ignas | users as in Schooltool Person ? | 20:37 |
| th1a | Yes. | 20:37 |
| ignas | do you have any particular apps in mind ? | 20:37 |
| th1a | That's just the most basic. | 20:37 |
| th1a | Interoperating with Moodle would be huge. | 20:38 |
| th1a | We can share a lot of data with Moodle using SIF. | 20:38 |
| ignas | i know | 20:38 |
| ignas | but i like starting small | 20:38 |
| aelkner | mee too | 20:38 |
| ignas | do you have an actual moodle instance running ? | 20:39 |
| ignas | with users and stuff ? | 20:39 |
| th1a | Well, Moodle doesn't do SIF yet either. | 20:39 |
| ignas | the perfect case would be an application that already shares some data with schooltool indirectly and does SIF | 20:39 |
| th1a | In Arlington, they'd be talking to their real SIS, which is perhaps more immediately relevant. | 20:40 |
| th1a | And it supports SIF. | 20:40 |
| ignas | so i'd say that having HTTP is very important, i mean the first thing to do would be to actually share Person information with that sis | 20:40 |
| ignas | and see what are issues, problems, usecases etc | 20:41 |
| th1a | I understand the problem very well. | 20:41 |
| th1a | I just don't understand threads very well. | 20:41 |
| th1a | So if someone else aelkner, ignas, pcardune, whomever, can wire that up, I'm ready to roll. | 20:41 |
| ignas | i just think that the problem will not be the SIF protocol, but will be the ways of schooltool pushing/pulling data, and various thread issues | 20:42 |
| th1a | Yes. Particularly getting the threading right. | 20:42 |
| jinty | transaction issues as well | 20:43 |
| th1a | So we can send out HTTP requests without blocking the server. | 20:43 |
| th1a | jinty: Yes. | 20:43 |
| ignas | :/ | 20:44 |
| ignas | the amount of available qualified developer hours is already negative from what i understand :/ | 20:45 |
| aelkner | I can devote 100% of my time to this, but I have a learning curve. | 20:46 |
| pcardune | i dont really know much about threading | 20:46 |
| aelkner | I suggested adding threading after we already had some working agents, and Tom thought that was fine. | 20:47 |
| aelkner | I thought I'd create some python modules that talked to the ZIS and then we could import those modules later into a zope object. | 20:48 |
| aelkner | Threading shouldn't be too difficult. | 20:49 |
| aelkner | But I think we need some real world agents before we worry about performace/blocking issues. | 20:49 |
| th1a | I just bring it up now because it is pretty much orthogonal to understanding SIF in general. | 20:49 |
| aelkner | That's cool. We will keep it in mind. | 20:50 |
| th1a | I don't want ignas to spend time on this. | 20:50 |
| aelkner | thla: you and I should pair at some point. | 20:50 |
| th1a | Anyhow, we can put it off... | 20:50 |
| aelkner | For now, I'm developing on maddog without being able to use the svn repository, | 20:51 |
| th1a | aelkner: Yes. I guess you'll be at PyCon? | 20:51 |
| th1a | ignas: You're probably going to PyCon, btw. | 20:51 |
| aelkner | Sure will. | 20:51 |
| aelkner | But we have a couple of months until then. | 20:51 |
| ignas | th1a: neat, hope they'll give me the US visa :) | 20:52 |
| aelkner | I'm open to coming up to R.I. to pair with you if you think that would help. | 20:52 |
| th1a | Well, yeah, there is that. | 20:52 |
| th1a | aelkner: I'm sure it would help if you want to give it a shot. | 20:52 |
| th1a | Things are kind of chaotic here though. We've got construction going on and a baby on the way. | 20:53 |
| aelkner | I'm moving to Philadelphia in a couple of weeks, so I was thinking sometime in the middle of Dec. | 20:53 |
| aelkner | Still in the meantime we could pair here. | 20:54 |
| th1a | Ah. | 20:54 |
| th1a | Well, we'll see. | 20:54 |
| aelkner | We could use your help figuring out the svn problem. | 20:54 |
| th1a | It is beyond me. | 20:56 |
| aelkner | Are there people you could concsult with? | 20:56 |
| ignas | aelkner: what is the problem ? | 20:57 |
| aelkner | IK just sent you a note. | 20:58 |
| ignas | IK ? | 21:00 |
| th1a | ignas: I'm using a trac host that has uses a digital certificate with an not matching hostnmae. | 21:00 |
| th1a | Which only aelkner's svn client seems to notice or care about. | 21:00 |
| ignas | hmm | 21:00 |
| ignas | whats the url of the repository ? | 21:00 |
| th1a | There may be some config file for svn. | 21:00 |
| th1a | https://svn1.hosted-projects.com/sif/tinyzis | 21:02 |
| ignas | and what is the message ? | 21:03 |
| ignas | the message that svn gives ? | 21:04 |
| aelkner | forward hime the note. | 21:04 |
| ignas | lisppaste5: url | 21:04 |
| lisppaste5 | To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/schooltool and enter your paste. | 21:04 |
| aelkner | I'm looking for svn config in the meantime. | 21:04 |
| ignas | if it's not private | 21:04 |
| ignas | and do svn --version please | 21:05 |
| ignas | if it's unix config is in ~/.subversion/config | 21:05 |
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| th1a | I have to go take a shower. ttyl. | 21:06 |
| aelkner | yes. it's unix. | 21:07 |
| aelkner | On the machine that it works, the config has everyting commented out. | 21:07 |
| ignas | i'd suspect the auth catalog in there though ... | 21:08 |
| ignas | not the config | 21:08 |
| ignas | though you can paste the offending config file to lisppaste too | 21:08 |
| aelkner | looking. | 21:08 |
| ignas | you can always try mv .subversion .subversion.backup and svn co on the url ... | 21:09 |
| ignas | that would tell you whether the problem is in svn or the configuration | 21:09 |
| aelkner | Still the same problem. | 21:10 |
| aelkner | Did Tom forward you my note with the errors? | 21:10 |
| ignas | nope | 21:11 |
| aelkner | I could. What's your email? | 21:11 |
| ignas | couldn't go to http://paste.lisp.org/new/schooltool or there is private information in the note ? | 21:12 |
| ignas | ignas@pov.lt tohugh | 21:12 |
| aelkner | I sent the note. I don't understand what you mean with the url. | 21:14 |
| ignas | so what's the problem ? | 21:14 |
| ignas | click "p" | 21:14 |
| ignas | and enter | 21:14 |
| ignas | that's all | 21:14 |
| aelkner | One mement. | 21:15 |
| ignas | aelkner: http://paste.lisp.org/ read the about information | 21:15 |
| ignas | as for the usage examples :) | 21:15 |
| ignas | watch | 21:15 |
| * ignas clicks on http://paste.lisp.org/new/schooltool | 21:15 | |
| lisppaste5 | ignas pasted "A snippet of code to demonstrate how it works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/30300 | 21:16 |
| lisppaste5 | aelkner pasted "testing..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/30301 | 21:16 |
| ignas | now the link points to the snippet of code that i have pasted in the field | 21:16 |
| ignas | thus at the same time irc is not flooded with multi line message | 21:17 |
| ignas | while you can still see what people were talking about if you click on the link ... | 21:17 |
| aelkner | that's very cool. | 21:17 |
| ignas | they are very permanent, i mean if you paste your email or some other info that you don't want to be public - you should write an email to the author asking to delete it ... | 21:18 |
| aelkner | Ok. | 21:18 |
| ignas | as by default this information will be stored for years | 21:18 |
| aelkner | Anyway, hitting p worked. | 21:18 |
| aelkner | Thanks. | 21:18 |
| ignas | glad to help :) | 21:18 |
| aelkner | BTW, I'm Alan, Jeff's brother. What's your name? | 21:19 |
| aelkner | Also, where are you located? | 21:19 |
| ignas | Ignas :) | 21:19 |
| aelkner | No last name, lke Madonna? :) | 21:19 |
| ignas | Mikalajūnas | 21:20 |
| ignas | Lithuania | 21:20 |
| aelkner | Cool. | 21:20 |
| aelkner | Never been there. | 21:20 |
| ignas | well, i haven't been to US yet | 21:20 |
| aelkner | So many places to see, so little time... | 21:21 |
| aelkner | Could I ask you some more svn questions? I WHOLEFULLY ignorant. | 21:21 |
| ignas | yes, of course :) | 21:22 |
| aelkner | If I change a file and I want to save it, what do I do? | 21:22 |
| aelkner | I mean that it goes to the repository. | 21:23 |
| ignas | you mean commit ? | 21:23 |
| aelkner | Yes. But Tom hasn't given me commit access yet. | 21:24 |
| aelkner | Branches? | 21:24 |
| ignas | oh, then all you can do is svn diff > foo-bar.patch | 21:24 |
| ignas | and mail that patch to someone with commit rights | 21:24 |
| ignas | you can't branch without commit rights too ... | 21:24 |
| ignas | it's not darcs nor bzr ;) | 21:24 |
| aelkner | I'm familiar with perforce. | 21:25 |
| aelkner | That's all. | 21:25 |
| ignas | you could try working with SVK tohugh as it is more complex than SVN it is not a very good option ... | 21:25 |
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| aelkner | Could Tom grant me commit access to a branch so that I could share code with other developers? | 21:26 |
| ignas | well, in svn if you have commit rights, you don't need to branch | 21:27 |
| ignas | you can just commit the code that you change | 21:27 |
| ignas | branches are for more substantial chunks of development | 21:28 |
| aelkner | I'd like to keep it simple if at all possible. | 21:28 |
| ignas | so that the trunk (main version) would stay stable while you are working on something big ... | 21:28 |
| ignas | branching in svn is not simple ... | 21:28 |
| aelkner | I think Tom might worry about something going wrong if he gives me commit access. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure. | 21:29 |
| aelkner | Is there a way of reassuring him that we can recover from errant commits? | 21:29 |
| ignas | well, you can always revert a commit if something goes totally wrong | 21:30 |
| ignas | or check out an older revision, etc. | 21:30 |
| aelkner | His command for checking out the source is "svn co https://svn1.hosted-projects.com/sif/tinyzis" I don't see a version number. | 21:31 |
| ignas | if you want some specific version (not the latest) you can pass --revision parameter | 21:32 |
| ignas | you should read a subversion tutorial though | 21:33 |
| aelkner | Will do. | 21:33 |
| ignas | ok, i have to go | 21:34 |
| ignas | it's late in here ;) | 21:34 |
| aelkner | Thanks again. | 21:34 |
| ignas | bye | 21:36 |
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