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| * th1a sputters back to life. | 16:29 | |
| * th1a shuffles some papers. | 16:31 | |
| th1a | Good morning/afternoon folks. | 16:31 |
|---|---|---|
| pcardune | good morning th1a! | 16:32 |
| th1a | Glad you could join us pcardune. | 16:32 |
| pcardune | (I too am glad | 16:32 |
| pcardune | to be here) | 16:32 |
| th1a | Um... anyone else here? srichter? ignas? | 16:34 |
| th1a | alga? | 16:34 |
| ignas | yes | 16:34 |
| ignas | hi | 16:34 |
| th1a | ignas: hi | 16:34 |
| th1a | ignas: Did you go to EuroPython? | 16:34 |
| ignas | th1a: yes | 16:34 |
| th1a | How was it? | 16:34 |
| ignas | quite nice | 16:35 |
| ignas | met jinty :) | 16:35 |
| alga | er, hi | 16:35 |
| th1a | alga: Hi. | 16:35 |
| th1a | So what's jinty like in real life? | 16:35 |
| ignas | fun to talk with :) | 16:36 |
| th1a | Maybe someday EuroPython won't be the same week as NECC, and I'll be able to come. | 16:37 |
| ignas | :) we can arange that :D | 16:37 |
| th1a | Will it be in Vilnius next year? | 16:37 |
| ignas | when is the NECC next year ? | 16:37 |
| ignas | th1a: yes i think so | 16:38 |
| th1a | June 24-27. | 16:38 |
| th1a | NECC was very exciting this year. The awareness of and interest in open source was way up among educators. | 16:39 |
| th1a | Especially Moodle. | 16:40 |
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| th1a | I blogged about it: http://tuttlesvc.teacherhosting.com/wordpress/?p=148 | 16:40 |
| th1a | Anyhow, hopefully I'll see you in Vilnius in a year. | 16:40 |
| th1a | OK. Moving on... | 16:41 |
| alga | My visa interview tomorrow morning | 16:41 |
| alga | Aistė has contacted the travel agent re. plane tickets reservation | 16:42 |
| th1a | Let's talk about goals for NELS. | 16:43 |
| th1a | Overall, I want to focus on UI. | 16:44 |
| th1a | We'll have some student interns with us, who we'll be able to put to work but aren't super Zope 3 experts. | 16:44 |
| pcardune | they are very limited in their knowledge | 16:45 |
| th1a | So one goal is getting them to go through various views and identify and hopefully clean up various rendering bugs. | 16:45 |
| th1a | We have lots of glitches on browsers that aren't Firefox. | 16:45 |
| pcardune | I've been trying to bring them up to speed but we have had a lot of technical issues here in virginia with power at schools being turned off for the summer without anyone notifying us (bye bye servers) | 16:46 |
| th1a | pcardune: That's nuts. | 16:46 |
| pcardune | no kidding | 16:47 |
| th1a | pcardune: Can you generate a list of the views in the system by parsing the ZCML (like we discussed)? | 16:47 |
| pcardune | will we have computers running these other browsers? I think we will be bringing ubuntu laptops (they might dualboot windows) | 16:48 |
| pcardune | th1a, I can work on that | 16:48 |
| th1a | pcardune: Thanks. | 16:48 |
| th1a | Beyond that, I think we need to use the face to face time to flesh out the navigation/ui stories. | 16:49 |
| th1a | And do some rough implementation. | 16:50 |
| th1a | I'll bring my whiteboard and a big roll of newsprint. | 16:50 |
| th1a | ignas: From our discussion yesterday, what you need is a more focused description of what each role should be able to see? | 16:51 |
| ignas | yes, what parts are important | 16:52 |
| ignas | i mean | 16:52 |
| ignas | both sutents and admins should have a way of looking at "group list" | 16:52 |
| ignas | but for one of them it must be somewhere deep (like student has a link to a list of all groups near the list of his groups) | 16:52 |
| ignas | while for administratior accessing of group list should be more direct | 16:52 |
| ignas | hope i made it clearer :/ | 16:53 |
| th1a | ignas: I see what you mean. | 16:53 |
| th1a | The thing about groups now is that for most (non-admin) people, they are only relevant in terms of having a calendar. | 16:54 |
| th1a | So a student perhaps only needs to interact with groups via the calendar. | 16:55 |
| ignas | well, students care about group calendars of groups they are in or groups their firends are in | 16:55 |
| ignas | having a link that would say "Add this calendar to my overlays" not that is useful | 16:56 |
| th1a | Right, but as long as they can add the group's calendar, that's pretty much all they need to know about the group. | 16:56 |
| ignas | probably yes, though i can imagine one looking at the list of other students attending "Judo" stuff just to see whether i want to join it or not ... | 16:57 |
| ignas | in the begining of the year | 16:57 |
| ignas | probably once or twice | 16:57 |
| th1a | It is a low priority use case. | 16:58 |
| ignas | but yes, you are looking at groups if "You want to join some" or if "you want to see it's calendar because your friend is in it" | 16:58 |
| th1a | We need to focus on getting the attendance, gradebook & demographics to work for teachers and admins. | 16:58 |
| ignas | just looking at a calendar of a group you have no connection to and not wanting to join it is a weird usecase | 16:58 |
| th1a | Well, we need to start thinking more like a student information system that has unusually well developed calendars, rather than primarily a calendar system. | 17:00 |
| th1a | Making an easy to use SIS is the focus now, so leaving out some navigational paths that aren't strictly necessary is ok. | 17:01 |
| th1a | ignas: So anyhow, what specific kind of documentation would you like to see at this point? | 17:02 |
| th1a | Use cases? | 17:02 |
| th1a | Some kind of UML? | 17:02 |
| ignas | yes, most important things that user should be able to perform in as few clicks as possible | 17:02 |
| th1a | Short use cases? | 17:03 |
| ignas | anything that is easy enough for you to write at the moment | 17:03 |
| th1a | Like: Teacher is taking attendance for one section and wants to switch to the gradebook for the same section. | 17:03 |
| srichter | I am here | 17:04 |
| th1a | good morning srichter. | 17:04 |
| ignas | th1a: yes, would be good enough, would be a bit better if you would add some marker that would note how common/important that is | 17:05 |
| th1a | ignas: OK. | 17:06 |
| th1a | ignas: Actually, can you give me a summary of what you and gintas have been doing? | 17:07 |
| ignas | moving away from Zope3 menu to viewlets and hiding links that users should not be able to see | 17:07 |
| ignas | actions menu contained a lot of links that would raise permission errors | 17:08 |
| ignas | though one would still see them | 17:08 |
| ignas | without a way to handle them in a different way | 17:08 |
| ignas | that's it | 17:09 |
| th1a | OK. I wonder if I should give you some bugs to work on while we hash out the UI stuff. | 17:10 |
| ignas | well i have 1 task on my work list "make password edit view guarded by an access control setting" | 17:11 |
| th1a | So I could give you some more tasks? | 17:12 |
| ignas | you can | 17:12 |
| ignas | i'll stop fiddling with the UI stuff until you decide what you really want then ;) | 17:12 |
| th1a | OK. I'll do that. We don't have any outstanding timezone bugs? | 17:12 |
| srichter | th1a: actually good afternoon | 17:12 |
| srichter | th1a: I had to go to Austria for an emergency thing | 17:13 |
| th1a | ignas: I just need to get in the same room with some other people. | 17:13 |
| th1a | srichter: I wondered why you had been so quiet. | 17:13 |
| th1a | Are you going to be back in time? | 17:13 |
| ignas | th1a: don't really have any i think, there are such things as ICAL support though they are more of a time sink rather than bugs | 17:14 |
| srichter | th1a: actually, I was teaching and buying the house the last two weeks | 17:14 |
| ignas | http://issues.schooltool.org/issue494 | 17:14 |
| th1a | pcardune: Another fairly easy thing we might train the interns to do is make some custom form views for the demographics. | 17:14 |
| ignas | seems new | 17:14 |
| th1a | OK. Definitely add investigating that that to your list. | 17:15 |
| th1a | pcardune: That is, right now all the views are auto-generated, and it would be better if some of them were laid out more compactly. | 17:16 |
| pcardune | that is a possibility | 17:17 |
| th1a | They could even just work on the layout and then we can add the zpt later if they don't know how to do that. | 17:17 |
| th1a | ignas & alga: if you have any ideas about useful things captive high school students could do for us at the sprint, let us know ;-) | 17:18 |
| pcardune | he he he | 17:19 |
| th1a | I don't want them to be bored. | 17:19 |
| alga | :-| | 17:19 |
| alga | what could that be?.. | 17:19 |
| th1a | Things that don't require too much programming skill. | 17:20 |
| th1a | We could have them work on help files. | 17:20 |
| ignas | th1a: err, even very good programmers don't do that well :/ | 17:21 |
| th1a | So we have nothing to lose! | 17:21 |
| pcardune | th1a, we could come up with a written list of tasks and check them off as we go | 17:21 |
| th1a | But I agree, I wouldn't expect polished results. | 17:21 |
| th1a | pcardune: Exactly, what can be on the list. | 17:21 |
| th1a | One think is checking views. | 17:21 |
| ignas | css/html tweaks | 17:22 |
| ignas | making mockups for UI | 17:22 |
| th1a | Will anyone have a Mac with them? | 17:22 |
| ignas | testing UI ideas generated by ST developers | 17:22 |
| pcardune | I wish :) | 17:22 |
| th1a | We have some serious problems in Safari. | 17:22 |
| alga | will konqueror do? | 17:23 |
| pcardune | getting coffee | 17:23 |
| pcardune | :) | 17:23 |
| ignas | they will be users of the system in some time, so it is important to get their user experience good ... | 17:23 |
| th1a | alga: I need to determine that. | 17:23 |
| ignas | using them for some hallway tests in the begining ;) | 17:23 |
| th1a | ignas: Yes, that's one reason it is a good time to work through these UI discussions, rather than just me sitting in my room. | 17:23 |
| th1a | Hallway tests? | 17:24 |
| ignas | ok, won't do, people must know pretty much nothing about the system for a proper hallway test | 17:24 |
| ignas | hallway test is when you just go into a hallway, catch some passer by and make hip perform some basic tasks | 17:24 |
| ignas | with a piece of software | 17:24 |
| ignas | seeing how easy/difficult is your application to use | 17:25 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:25 |
| ignas | for someone who did not spend 2 years developing it | 17:25 |
| pcardune | no kidding | 17:25 |
| th1a | I'm hoping we'll be able to do that with our new ideas, since our old ones are pretty much played out. | 17:26 |
| th1a | pcardune: dwelsh isn't going to be there, right? | 17:26 |
| pcardune | I don't believe he is | 17:27 |
| th1a | OK. So you'll have to do a couple brief CanDo talks. | 17:27 |
| th1a | Which I know you can do on short notice ;-) | 17:27 |
| pcardune | oh man... that was hell! | 17:28 |
| pcardune | I should put that on my resume | 17:28 |
| th1a | pcardune did a last minute CanDo presentation at NECC using Skype and VNC. | 17:28 |
| th1a | It was an impressive feat. | 17:28 |
| pcardune | "can organize and give presentations from 3000 miles away with only 3 hours of preparation" thanks to Nick Wheeler though | 17:29 |
| th1a | pcardune: You absolutely should put that on your resume. | 17:29 |
| th1a | OK. Time's up. | 17:29 |
| th1a | Sorry things were a little rambly today. I'll be using the rest of the week to focus things for NELS. | 17:30 |
| th1a | Have a good week. Good luck at the interview, alga. | 17:30 |
| alga | thanks! | 17:30 |
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| th1a | alga: When would you be arriving? | 17:30 |
| th1a | srichter: When will you be back in the US? | 17:31 |
| alga | th1a: don't know yet. On 15th perhaps | 17:32 |
| th1a | In Boston, right? | 17:33 |
| th1a | Don't fly to New York ;-) | 17:33 |
| alga | Yep, I was aiming for Boston | 17:46 |
| th1a | OK. Just checking. | 17:47 |
| th1a | If for some strange reason you can get to Providence just as cheaply (probably through New York), you can do that too. | 17:47 |
| th1a | The Providence airport is 15 minutes from my house. | 17:48 |
| alga | Hmmm | 17:48 |
| alga | too bad it's past business hours here, and Aistė has gone out too... | 17:49 |
| th1a | You could mention that to your travel agent. | 17:49 |
| th1a | Either way is OK. | 17:49 |
| alga | so, if I'm flying to Boston I will stay at srichter's place for one night? | 17:49 |
| alga | if he is indeed back from Austria | 17:50 |
| th1a | alga: That's what I was thinking. | 17:51 |
| th1a | Otherwise we'll have to bring you back down here. | 17:51 |
| th1a | Of course, srichter might be in the middle of moving into his new home, so things have gotten a little more complicated... | 17:51 |
| th1a | And I have a base ball game Saturday. | 17:52 |
| th1a | But we'll figure something out ;-) | 17:52 |
| alga | Are credit cards ubiquitously accepted in the US? | 17:54 |
| alga | can I buy a train ticket or a bus ticket with a card? | 17:54 |
| alga | or pay for taxi? | 17:54 |
| th1a | Yes, we use credit cards ;-) | 17:57 |
| th1a | I'd imagine we invented them. | 17:58 |
| th1a | We lead the world in debt. | 17:58 |
| pcardune | you can buy a stick of gum with a credit card at some stores | 17:58 |
| th1a | alga: You can learn about that watching "Oprah." | 17:58 |
| alga | Well, here the smart-card debit cards are more popular | 18:00 |
| alga | so they don't quite lead to debt | 18:00 |
| ignas | pcardune: at some stores or in pretty much ALL stores ? | 18:00 |
| alga | but the point is you don't need to carry cash | 18:00 |
| th1a | Pretty much. | 18:00 |
| th1a | I usually don't trust taxi's to take credit cards, but I think most of them do. | 18:01 |
| pcardune | ignas, i'm not sure, i so rarely buy gum at all. but *some* stores have a $5.00 minimum charge | 18:01 |
| th1a | I prefer not to find out the hard way. | 18:01 |
| th1a | I've been chewing gum lately, for some unknown reason. | 18:01 |
| th1a | pcardune: Are you going to work more on your top menus in a branch? | 18:03 |
| pcardune | th1a, yes, that would be a really good idea | 18:04 |
| pcardune | it broke more functional tests than I thought | 18:04 |
| pcardune | although most of them look trivial (" <a something>" versus "<a something>") | 18:05 |
| th1a | pcardune: I'd like to be able to get some feedback on it at NELS. | 18:05 |
| pcardune | I'll be working on it thursday and friday | 18:06 |
| th1a | Cool. Thanks. | 18:06 |
| alga | th1a: could you elaborate on Oprah? | 18:06 |
| th1a | I was trapped in a doctor's office yesterday, and her talk show was on the TV. | 18:07 |
| th1a | The main feature seemed to be profiles of middle class families trapped by credit card debt. | 18:07 |
| th1a | People making $100,000 with $90,000 in credit card debt. | 18:07 |
| th1a | At 20%+ interest. | 18:08 |
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| alga | whoa | 18:09 |
| th1a | So they bring on the financial advisor who starts out by saying, "Well, right now you aren't even paying in enough each month to cover the interest, so at this rate your debt will keep going up forever." | 18:11 |
| th1a | And everyone cries, etc. | 18:11 |
| pcardune | do they own a house? | 18:12 |
| pcardune | they should just sell it | 18:12 |
| th1a | And then live in a box? | 18:12 |
| pcardune | and sell their car, and their children | 18:12 |
| srichter | alga: th1a: Sure you can stay a night :-) | 18:27 |
| srichter | We will be still in the apartment this weekend, so there should not be a big hassle. | 18:27 |
| srichter | I make sure we bring the air matress back from the house | 18:28 |
| alga | thanks, Stephan | 18:38 |
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| * th1a is going to get a much needed haircut. | 18:44 | |
| srichter | alga: send me your flight info | 18:57 |
| srichter | alga: I'll send you the address too | 18:58 |
| srichter | actually | 18:58 |
| srichter | Stephan and Claudia Richter | 18:58 |
| srichter | 79 Clarendon Ave. #1 | 18:58 |
| srichter | Somerville, MA 02144 | 18:58 |
| srichter | Taxi: tell them to go to Teele Square; it's the street between the church and the dry cleaner | 19:01 |
| alga | thanks! | 19:01 |
| alga | yay, my mobile phone is tri-band, so I'll be connected! | 19:05 |
| alga | with exorbitant fees though | 19:21 |
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