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| pcardune | th1a: ayt? | 04:04 |
|---|---|---|
| th1a | pcardune: I'm here. | 04:07 |
| pcardune | do you have a minute to talk about import/export? I recently sent an email to the zope corp guy that manages the CTEResource website | 04:07 |
| pcardune | and jelkner wants it to be his top priority | 04:08 |
| th1a | Sure. | 04:08 |
| th1a | Go ahead. | 04:08 |
| pcardune | I'd like to develope a well integrated xml based import/export system for schooltool/cando | 04:08 |
| pcardune | In the end, the hope would be that it could entirely replace the data stored in the ZODB | 04:09 |
| th1a | Import/export the whole db? | 04:09 |
| pcardune | yeah | 04:09 |
| th1a | I think Plone is doing that now. | 04:09 |
| th1a | Or is going to do that. | 04:10 |
| pcardune | I mean, as much as I love zodb, it seems brittle, even with the evolve scripts | 04:10 |
| th1a | I know what you mean. | 04:10 |
| th1a | I think it would be a good thing, but I'm not sure if it is the same problem as competency import/export. | 04:11 |
| pcardune | no, it certainly isn't the same problem, but they are related | 04:11 |
| th1a | Yes. | 04:11 |
| pcardune | At this point, i don't know how i am going to transfer data between cando 2005 and cando 2006 | 04:12 |
| pcardune | in theory the evolve scripts could do it, but the generation numbers are all messed up because we forked and didn't do it right the first time | 04:12 |
| th1a | Well, I agree that having a full db import/export option would be a good thing. | 04:13 |
| pcardune | It is relatively easy to grab certain raw data, like a list of students, courses, competencies, but it is more difficult to export relationships between objects | 04:13 |
| pcardune | which is just as vital information as the plain relationshipless lists | 04:14 |
| pcardune | From an implementation point of view, I think it would be pretty easy to do it in a bit by bit fashion | 04:14 |
| th1a | Yes. If you aren't careful you'll end up using RDF. | 04:14 |
| pcardune | this is my concern | 04:15 |
| pcardune | I have basically no experience with xml standards and know that I am going to do it incorrectly the first time around | 04:15 |
| th1a | Well, there is standards and standards. | 04:16 |
| th1a | If you're only interoperating with yourself, you can change the rules whenever you want. | 04:16 |
| pcardune | well, I'm really interoperating with future versions of the system which will have unforseen requirements | 04:17 |
| th1a | I'll repeat that the standards import/export and database import/export are two different problems. | 04:17 |
| th1a | Yeah, that's a problem, too. | 04:17 |
| pcardune | Although one thought that just occurred to me is to think about it like deb packages | 04:18 |
| th1a | Have you tried debugging the generations scripts? | 04:18 |
| th1a | I'm worried you aren't just substituting one pain for another. | 04:18 |
| th1a | That you are. | 04:18 |
| pcardune | I'm not talking about that bug I found a few days ago... i fixed that. I suppose it would be possible to fix, but i'd need to know a lot more about controlling zodb | 04:19 |
| pcardune | But that's not the only reason for having extensive import/export capabilities | 04:20 |
| th1a | There is probably a big difference between the way you'd write an XML syntax for backing up a database and how you'd do it to transfer data between apps. | 04:21 |
| th1a | Plain old Zope two has some way of exporting a backup. | 04:21 |
| pcardune | hmm | 04:22 |
| pcardune | ok, let me give you an example | 04:22 |
| pcardune | curriculum can be attached to competencies as metadata. Curriculum is also its own content component.... | 04:23 |
| pcardune | If I export competencies, I may want to export the curriculum along side those competencies | 04:23 |
| th1a | Export as a backup or to move it to another application? | 04:24 |
| pcardune | but curriculum is yet another zope component which may be equally or more complex that a list competencies, and therefore warranting its own xml format | 04:24 |
| pcardune | export to move to another application | 04:24 |
| pcardune | (which may be a future version) | 04:25 |
| pcardune | Also, some competencies may point to the same curriculum | 04:25 |
| pcardune | so, i would store the an id for the curriculum pointed to by a competency when exporting the competencies (to maintain that relationship) | 04:26 |
| pcardune | then export the curriculum separately, in a different file or something | 04:27 |
| th1a | I think you're mixing too many problems together. | 04:27 |
| pcardune | I agree with you on that | 04:28 |
| th1a | If you're not careful you could spend all summer on this. | 04:28 |
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| th1a | How does CTEResource want to export competencies? | 04:29 |
| pcardune | they don't at this point, Lee Capps (I think you got his email) is looking into it | 04:29 |
| th1a | A new email? | 04:30 |
| pcardune | from yesterday | 04:31 |
| pcardune | oh it seems to say the they would like to do an XML view | 04:31 |
| th1a | OK. I see it. | 04:32 |
| th1a | I think you have to absolutely separate backup and data sharing with other apps problems. | 04:34 |
| th1a | They both use XML, but they're different problems. | 04:34 |
| th1a | If you try to do both at the same time you're screwed. | 04:35 |
| th1a | Unless you do it in RDF, but then you're screwed in a different way. | 04:35 |
| pcardune | ok, that is the good advice I was looking for | 04:36 |
| th1a | Just passing standards from the state to you is easy. | 04:36 |
| th1a | You can use an existing standard or make up one in an afternoon. | 04:37 |
| th1a | Tying in other content from your database makes it much, much harder. | 04:37 |
| th1a | OTOH, figuring out a way to dump the whole database to XML in some form that is ugly but works is probably not too hard. | 04:38 |
| th1a | But getting dainty or trying to do it so it will make sense to another human and his or her application is much harder. | 04:38 |
| pcardune | ok | 04:39 |
| pcardune | in that case, my only question is whether you foresee wanting xml export capabilities for schooltool components | 04:39 |
| pcardune | I plan on making some interfaces like IExportable and IImportable or something, and then people can make adapters for components as they see fit | 04:40 |
| pcardune | should I put those in schooltool? | 04:40 |
| th1a | I would want this to work in a very low level way. | 04:40 |
| th1a | Dump the whole db, reimport it. | 04:41 |
| pcardune | something like the way CSV import works now? or more low level? | 04:41 |
| th1a | You should look at what Plone is doing (which I haven't done). | 04:41 |
| pcardune | oh, at this point I am talking about exporting specific peices of data to share with other apps | 04:41 |
| th1a | Oh... | 04:41 |
| pcardune | like exporting a list of users | 04:42 |
| th1a | I've decided to finally just back SIF for interoperability. | 04:42 |
| th1a | See http://sifsoft.com | 04:42 |
| th1a | We're starting to write some SIF libraries for Python and PHP. | 04:43 |
| th1a | And trying resurrect the old Java Zone Integration Server, which is the key piece to the puzzle. | 04:43 |
| * pcardune reading the sif site | 04:44 | |
| pcardune | SIF is xml based presumably? | 04:46 |
| th1a | Yes. | 04:47 |
| pcardune | I'm not entirely clear on what the ZIS is supposed to do | 04:47 |
| th1a | It is oriented toward passing messages around rather than just backing up a database, though. | 04:47 |
| th1a | OK, the ZIS coordinates the sharing of data between apps in the school. | 04:47 |
| th1a | You add, say, SchoolTool, to your network and point it at your ZIS (if we had a SIF agent). | 04:48 |
| th1a | SchoolTool says "I provide the StudentPersonal object." | 04:48 |
| th1a | Your library system says "I subscribe to the StudentPersonal object." | 04:48 |
| pcardune | oooh, ok | 04:48 |
| th1a | When someone adds a person to SchoolTool, it notifies the ZIS and then the ZIS tells the library system. | 04:48 |
| pcardune | so the data isn't actually stored on the ZIS | 04:48 |
| th1a | It is a router. | 04:49 |
| pcardune | oh, this is certainly very good | 04:49 |
| th1a | It is like D-Bus for a school. | 04:49 |
| pcardune | what about more than one school? | 04:49 |
| th1a | There just isn't an open source ZIS, which has screwed us for years. | 04:49 |
| pcardune | or more than one ZIS? | 04:49 |
| pcardune | what is the state of this project? | 04:50 |
| th1a | SIF about died, in my opinion, until it started being pushed by state governments, so there is a lot of work done on big zones for state doe's. | 04:50 |
| th1a | It is strong at this point. | 04:50 |
| th1a | It has been around forever. | 04:51 |
| th1a | It is a bit ideosyncratic because it is so old. | 04:51 |
| th1a | Basically it is an XML web service system that was developed before SOAP, XML-RPC, etc. | 04:51 |
| th1a | Other countries are starting to take it up now as well. | 04:52 |
| pcardune | You said that python SIF modules were starting to be written | 04:52 |
| th1a | I got more excited about it again after Edubuntu came out, because I realized that if we had an open source ZIS, we could create a distribution where all the apps like SchoolTool, Moodle, even LDAP worked together right out of the box. | 04:52 |
| th1a | By me. | 04:53 |
| th1a | I don't think there is a link... | 04:53 |
| th1a | just a sec... | 04:53 |
| th1a | http://sifsoft.com/source/opensadk/trunk/ | 04:53 |
| pcardune | this looks fairly involved | 04:55 |
| pcardune | i'm impressed | 04:55 |
| th1a | Well, the lxml library helps a lot. | 04:55 |
| pcardune | is Jeff Elkner aware of all this? | 04:55 |
| th1a | And we've got the old Java code to port from. | 04:55 |
| th1a | This just happened, so no. | 04:55 |
| th1a | Actually, some of his students might be able to work on this, because you can copy from the Java and Matt's PHP examples. | 04:56 |
| th1a | Not that I know either language. | 04:56 |
| th1a | Pretty much everything I've written is in opensadk.py. | 04:57 |
| th1a | Which is very un-OOD. | 04:57 |
| th1a | No tests, either. | 04:57 |
| pcardune | well, I'll certainly mention it to elkner, and maybe one of our interns can work on it, or maybe even I will work on it | 04:58 |
| th1a | So my point is, that I'd like to focus interoperability work on SIF. | 04:59 |
| th1a | Oh, also, Elkner, Welsh and I talked to a guy in Erie (I think) who is interested in using CanDo. | 04:59 |
| th1a | He was like separated from birth with Elkner & Welsh. | 05:00 |
| pcardune | he he he | 05:00 |
| th1a | Anyhow, his school uses SIF, so we talked about that for a while. | 05:00 |
| pcardune | well, it's getting pretty late. | 05:01 |
| pcardune | I'm going to talk to elkner about this in more depth on thursday | 05:01 |
| pcardune | and maybe we can come up with a good proposal | 05:01 |
| th1a | OK. Good. Great talking to you! | 05:01 |
| pcardune | thanks | 05:01 |
| pcardune | bye | 05:02 |
| th1a | bye. | 05:02 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6165: | 13:57 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Change table.html into index.html and make sure all the tests still work. | 13:57 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: This necessitated making the full name of the person a link to the display form for nameinfo, as there were assumptions in many tests to that effect... | 13:57 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6166: | 14:44 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Remove old view that isn't in use anymore. | 14:44 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6167: | 15:22 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: CSS tweak: even/odd rendering. | 15:22 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6168: | 15:24 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Tweak even/odd CSS to make it more consistent. | 15:24 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6169: | 16:39 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Got rid of duplicate code in relationship editing views. | 16:39 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6170: | 16:49 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Moved RelationshipViewBase to schooltool.app.browser.app to prevent spurious dependencies on schooltool.group. | 16:49 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6171: | 16:54 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Fixed bug in groups.pt. | 16:54 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6172: | 17:13 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Uncommented some functional tests. Extended owner permission a bit so users can edit their own calendars properly. | 17:13 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6173: | 18:25 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Added a leadership relationship and leadership editing views. Added a default page template for RelationshipViewBase. | 18:25 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6174: | 18:39 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Fixed failing functional test. | 18:39 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6175: | 18:50 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Removed redundant templates. | 18:50 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6176: | 19:04 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Added a crowd of leaders. | 19:04 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6177: | 19:47 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Resources are now editable by their leaders. | 19:47 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6178: | 19:51 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Make this field required. It is in the add form already. | 19:51 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6179: | 19:52 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Add a 'Apply and Next' button to the demographics forms. This goes to the next menu entry after submitting. | 19:52 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6180: | 19:59 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Updated functional test to work with the new security policy. | 19:59 |
| ignas | merge time :D | 19:59 |
| ignas | faassen: ping | 20:01 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6181: | 20:23 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Make viewlets aware of their actual contexts so users would not see navigation links to objects they can't access. | 20:23 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Replace some extraneous zope.View with schooltool view. | 20:23 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6182: | 20:28 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Some snail food and a typo. | 20:28 |
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| tristil | Would it be useful if I produced a diff getting rid of the deprecations in Zope 3.3, or is that trivial? | 20:57 |
| tristil | Sorry, the deprecations in Schoolbell? | 20:58 |
| th1a | tristil: I think it would indeed be helpful. | 21:00 |
| th1a | Any love for SchoolBell is welcome. | 21:00 |
| tristil | th1a, cool, I'll get back to you when that's done, then. | 21:01 |
| th1a | Excellent! | 21:02 |
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| ignas | th1a: ayt ? | 21:16 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6183: | 21:40 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Brand new security policy. | 21:40 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Had to tweak the functional test for demographics a bit (person list is not public anymore by default). Also removed some snailfood from that test. | 21:40 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: cal-security.txt is commented out and left in there for future reference and it will get replaced with a functional test for the new security policy. | 21:40 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Documentation is a bit WIP so if you have any questions or something works differently than expected and hindering your progress yell loudly at me or Gintas until we fix it. | 21:40 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: A lot of functionality is still missing, but schooltool is already usable (all of the functional tests pass without any significant changes). | 21:40 |
| ignas | have fun :) | 21:42 |
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| pcardune | wow, I'm just getting a look at this demographics package | 22:11 |
| pcardune | looks pretty sweet from the UI end | 22:11 |
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