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povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5631: | 01:50 |
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povbot | /svn/commits: - Make tests more reliable by sorting by title. | 01:50 |
povbot | /svn/commits: - Create a testing module that contains all the necessary setup for | 01:50 |
povbot | /svn/commits: requirement and evaluation related tests. | 01:50 |
povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5632: | 04:35 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Solidify tests by making sure the sorting order is right. | 04:35 |
povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5633: | 04:39 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Implemented documented API. Next step, browser code. | 04:39 |
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povbot | /svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5634: | 09:25 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Make the test for dependencies sneaking into schooltool minimal a little stronger. | 09:25 |
povbot | /svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5635: | 09:27 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Exclude zope.app.keyreference that recently snuck in. | 09:27 |
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tiredbones | Is there a meeting today :) | 15:10 |
srichter | yep | 15:11 |
srichter | in 1:19 hours | 15:11 |
tiredbones | Thanks srichter. | 15:11 |
mgedmin | just enough time to grab a snack | 15:18 |
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srichter | mgedmin: are we using the pluggable traverser for browser paths too, already? | 15:34 |
mgedmin | I think so | 15:35 |
mgedmin | the attendance form traverser was a plugin like that before I refactored it away | 15:35 |
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srichter | ok, cool | 15:38 |
srichter | because I want to use it for the gradebook too | 15:38 |
srichter | we really need to propose adding this to the Zope core | 15:39 |
srichter | it would make the traverser extension truly easy and dynamic | 15:39 |
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mgedmin | srichter, I think I had some reservations about the current traverser plugin design | 15:57 |
mgedmin | let me try to remember... | 15:58 |
mgedmin | I think you cannot say '404 not found' in a traverser plugin, 'cause that causes all the other plugins to be tried | 15:59 |
mgedmin | I don't remember; I think alga stumbled on something like this | 15:59 |
srichter | well, it only looks for not found | 16:00 |
srichter | but that's correct, since the plugins also fulfill the traverser API | 16:00 |
srichter | so you could raise another error and not everything will be tried | 16:00 |
srichter | but note that the list of traversers is usually very small | 16:01 |
srichter | if there are 5 then that's usually excessive | 16:01 |
srichter | we are using the pluggable traverser already and I think we have not seen any performance hits | 16:01 |
mgedmin | ah, alga had a view with the same name as the traverser | 16:03 |
mgedmin | so if the traverser raised NotFound, the infrastructure would find the view and call it | 16:03 |
mgedmin | and the view expected some attributes to be set by the traverser | 16:03 |
mgedmin | anyway, that whole contraption wasn't nice and I refactored it away | 16:03 |
srichter | ok, I think I am ok with not covering that case :-) | 16:04 |
srichter | btw, I would really like to switch back to the Zope 3 trunk for development ;-) | 16:05 |
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mgedmin | you scared jinty away by saying things like that! | 16:10 |
mgedmin | oh, he's back | 16:10 |
th1a | srichter: What? | 16:11 |
srichter | I wish we could use the Zope 3 trunk to develop SchoolTool | 16:11 |
th1a | Any particular reason? | 16:11 |
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srichter | yep, because I can fix bugs and tests and misfeatures while working on SchoolTool | 16:12 |
srichter | for example, I want to use optionstorage, which is a reimplementation of my managable vocabulary | 16:13 |
srichter | but it is not tested and needs some refactoring, headers, etc. | 16:13 |
srichter | I would do this right now (it'f faster than developing it from scratch), but I can't because I cannot do this type of work on a Zope 3 branch | 16:14 |
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mgedmin | the food is here | 16:23 |
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th1a | Hi everyone. | 16:31 |
th1a | I'll start with a little news. | 16:31 |
th1a | After a bit of a delay, Mark has finally approved the plan to hire Infrae, so hopefully we'll be working out the rest of the details ASAP, and they'll be working on SchoolTool soon. | 16:32 |
* thisfred hopes so too ;) | 16:33 | |
th1a | Oh yes, I keep forgetting that thisfred is Eric. | 16:33 |
th1a | Hi thisfred. | 16:33 |
thisfred | hiya :) | 16:34 |
thisfred | sry to barge in, but the name infrae is in my ping list ;) | 16:34 |
th1a | No problem ;-) | 16:34 |
tiredbones | cold coffee does not task good! | 16:34 |
th1a | Second bit of good news is that the International Institute for Educational Planning, which is part of UNESCO, has invited Helen King (from TSF) and I to Paris to give them a presentation on SchoolTool. | 16:35 |
thisfred | I hope I get to work on schooltool, but it may be someone else here. At least I'll be closer to the fire | 16:35 |
alga | woohoo, welcome on board guys! | 16:35 |
th1a | I'm just hoping Infrae hasn't gotten a bunch of other work in the past month. | 16:36 |
th1a | IIEP website: http://www.unesco.org/iiep/index.htm | 16:37 |
thisfred | alga ty | 16:37 |
thisfred | th1a: it's busy enough here, but afaik schooltool work was sort of factored in | 16:38 |
th1a | IIEP trains lots of educational administrators and leaders around the world, and one of their emphases is developing effective data collection and analysis. | 16:38 |
alga | th1a: what are the possible perspectives with IIEP? | 16:38 |
th1a | thisfred: I hope so. | 16:38 |
th1a | Basically, they could train lots of people in the developing world to use SchoolTool. | 16:39 |
alga | so, more users, but not any more funds :-( | 16:39 |
th1a | It would also push the whole project forward in terms of looking for new sources of funding. | 16:39 |
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th1a | I have no idea if they would directly fund SchoolTool. | 16:40 |
th1a | I haven't spent serious time looking for other funding until we get to 1.0. | 16:40 |
th1a | Once we have a product in the can, the perspective will change a bit. | 16:41 |
th1a | So I'll be in Paris on Feb. 22nd. I don't think I'll make it all the way over to Vilnius for a visit, though. | 16:42 |
th1a | Hopefully I'll make it to Rotterdam, though. | 16:43 |
th1a | OK... that's my report. | 16:43 |
th1a | How have things been going in Vilnius? | 16:43 |
mgedmin | the homeroom story is done | 16:44 |
mgedmin | we're fixing some bugs with timetables and timezones | 16:44 |
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mgedmin | and starting to attack the homeroom attendance form | 16:44 |
mgedmin | ignas had some questions he wanted to ask you about attendance logging | 16:45 |
th1a | I was wondering what he wanted to ask. | 16:45 |
ignas_ | will a simple text file be enough ? | 16:45 |
th1a | Yes. | 16:45 |
th1a | Just like a regular logfile. | 16:45 |
ignas_ | that's it ;) | 16:46 |
mgedmin | what's happening with sample data for attendance? | 16:46 |
mgedmin | according to the proposal we were supposed to do it | 16:46 |
mgedmin | but I've heard sounds of you working on that | 16:46 |
th1a | I've got some code that does the first part, but was ultimately defeated by the test setup. | 16:47 |
th1a | It has lots of moving parts. | 16:47 |
th1a | I should probably just send you the code I've got. | 16:48 |
alga | Welcome to our world ;-) | 16:48 |
th1a | Indeed. | 16:48 |
th1a | Can you explain the nature of the timezone bugs to me? | 16:49 |
th1a | Is it consistently the same kind of bug in different places? | 16:49 |
mgedmin | more or less | 16:49 |
mgedmin | timetable data has no timezoneinfo whatsoever | 16:49 |
mgedmin | certain parts of the code just attached UTC as the timezone for timetable events | 16:49 |
mgedmin | other parts, I think, used to attach the user's preferred timezone instead | 16:50 |
th1a | So just an incomplete transition to timezones? | 16:50 |
mgedmin | it was all very not funny | 16:50 |
mgedmin | you used to get jumping events, and the period names in the sidebar wouldn't match timetable events | 16:50 |
ignas_ | th1a, not just incomplete, just plainly wrong sometimes ... | 16:50 |
th1a | OK. | 16:50 |
ignas_ | but fixable ... | 16:50 |
ignas_ | i got timetablegrid/ timetable events working on firday | 16:50 |
ignas_ | no tests yet | 16:50 |
mgedmin | pytz also has some gotchas, such as you can't reliably take a datetime object and say dt.replace(tzinfo=newtimezone) | 16:51 |
mgedmin | or pass tzinfo as an argument to datetime.datetime() | 16:51 |
mgedmin | you have to use mytimezone.localize(naive_datetime) | 16:51 |
ignas_ | at the moment i am going to use the Application Preferences timezone as the timezone for timetables | 16:51 |
srichter | mgedmin: a little help on this would be nice, so that I know how to create datetimes properly | 16:52 |
ignas_ | which means that if your school will move to australia you will have to update application preferences and lessons will be starting at 8:00 | 16:52 |
th1a | We really need to assign a timezone to the site, however, right? | 16:52 |
mgedmin | srichter, there is one rule: always use tzinfo.localize() for converting naive datetimes to tzaware datetimes | 16:52 |
th1a | We don't do that now, do we? | 16:52 |
mgedmin | it is documented in pytz's README | 16:52 |
mgedmin | but a bit hard to find | 16:53 |
srichter | mgedmin: what if I want to store now() | 16:53 |
srichter | right now I say: | 16:53 |
mgedmin | srichter, do utc.localize(datetime.datetime.utcnow()) | 16:53 |
srichter | dt = datetime.datetime.utcnow() | 16:53 |
srichter | ok | 16:53 |
mgedmin | although datetime.datetime.utcnow().replace(tzinfo=utc) also works | 16:53 |
ignas_ | srichter, and you should remember that there are two timezones - one is from the "user preferences" and another is from the "app preferences" | 16:53 |
mgedmin | 'cause UTC has a constant UTC offset | 16:53 |
srichter | I see | 16:54 |
ignas_ | srichter, sometimes you need one, sometimes you need another ... | 16:54 |
mgedmin | the problem is with timezones that use daylight savings time and/or change the utc offset historically | 16:54 |
srichter | oh, I see | 16:54 |
mgedmin | day boundaries are also tricky to get right | 16:55 |
th1a | ignas_: So we do have an app preference for timezone now? | 16:55 |
ignas_ | th1a, yes | 16:55 |
mgedmin | using datetime.date.today() might not match the user's timezone, or the system-wide site timezone | 16:55 |
th1a | I'd assume that timetables are always in the app timezone then. | 16:55 |
mgedmin | th1a, yes | 16:55 |
ignas_ | th1a, not yet ;) working on it v... | 16:55 |
mgedmin | th1a, and if you change the app timezone in the middle of the year, the timetable will shift | 16:55 |
mgedmin | ignas_, are there any remaining bugs? | 16:56 |
ignas_ | mgedmin, it is not in the reopsitory yet ... | 16:56 |
mgedmin | aaah | 16:56 |
mgedmin | ok | 16:56 |
mgedmin | the fixed code is there, in an XXX comments | 16:56 |
th1a | mgedmin: Like for daylight saving time? | 16:56 |
mgedmin | still waiting for a unit test | 16:56 |
mgedmin | th1a, no, DST is part of the timezone info | 16:56 |
mgedmin | we're talking about magically transporting the whole school to a different geographical location | 16:57 |
th1a | If a person goes on a trip, do they change their timezone in the app? | 16:57 |
mgedmin | so if you say that lesson 1 starts at 9 AM | 16:57 |
mgedmin | and then you notice that you had forgotten to set the site-wide tz | 16:57 |
mgedmin | and the event happens in the middle of the night | 16:57 |
mgedmin | you can go fix the tz setting | 16:57 |
mgedmin | and the lesson will start at 9 AM in your timezone | 16:57 |
mgedmin | if a person goes on a trip, he can change their timezone | 16:58 |
mgedmin | (or she) | 16:58 |
th1a | We can't actually set the timezone of individual events yet, right? | 16:58 |
mgedmin | no | 16:58 |
th1a | Which is what you want it you have a meeting in a different timezone. | 16:59 |
mgedmin | (although there are no fundamental obstacles for that) | 16:59 |
mgedmin | it's mostly a matter of adding the user interface | 16:59 |
th1a | mgedmin: That's good. | 16:59 |
th1a | mgedmin: What's your target for finishing the contract? | 17:01 |
mgedmin | jan 30, iirc | 17:01 |
th1a | OK. Any other news, problems, etc. in Vilnius? | 17:02 |
mgedmin | http://mg.pov.lt/pyspacewar/ is news, but it is not related to schooltool | 17:03 |
th1a | I saw that you had done some more work on it. | 17:03 |
th1a | OK. Moving on... How have things been coming srichter? | 17:04 |
srichter | as you saw in the checkin messages, I finished the Python API for the gradebook | 17:05 |
th1a | Yes. | 17:06 |
srichter | I also massively improved the performance of the evaluations collection | 17:06 |
srichter | by keying the evalautions not on the name, but on the requirement | 17:06 |
th1a | Can you explain that a bit more? | 17:07 |
srichter | before, IEvaluations was a simple container from evaluation name to evaluation | 17:07 |
srichter | this did not really work well, because every time you want to look up an evaluation for a requirement, you basically have to search the entire container | 17:08 |
srichter | this is of course O(log(N)) | 17:08 |
srichter | this is of course O(N) | 17:08 |
th1a | What do you mean by "keying the evaluations on the requirement?" | 17:08 |
srichter | so, even overriding a simple storage took me effectively 3*O(N) | 17:09 |
srichter | IEvaluations (and any other container) are mappings | 17:09 |
srichter | they have a key and a value | 17:09 |
srichter | (the most common implementation of a Python mapping is the dict object) | 17:09 |
th1a | OK. | 17:10 |
srichter | now, the IContainer API mandates the key to be a unicode string | 17:10 |
srichter | the key in the container is known as the name | 17:10 |
srichter | now, naturally evaluations do not have names | 17:11 |
srichter | even beofre, we sprang through hoops to create a name for the evaluation | 17:11 |
srichter | however, the by far most common query is to look up the evaluation by requirement (note that IEvaluations is already student specific) | 17:11 |
* mgedmin shudders to remember the "names" used by schooltool.level: str(time.time()) | 17:11 | |
th1a | Oh... but does this mean you can only have one evaluation per requirement? | 17:12 |
srichter | thus I decided not to implement the IContainer API, but simply the IMapping API | 17:13 |
srichter | th1a: yep | 17:13 |
th1a | Oof. | 17:13 |
th1a | Hm... on one hand, YAGNI. | 17:14 |
th1a | On the other hand, we will need it eventually. | 17:14 |
srichter | for what? | 17:14 |
th1a | You'd never need it in a gradebook. | 17:15 |
th1a | But in doing performance assessment, you'll assess the same standard multiple times... | 17:15 |
th1a | Although, hm... | 17:15 |
th1a | I guess I'll have to think about this a bit. | 17:16 |
srichter | but Paul clearly said they do not keep track of this right now | 17:16 |
srichter | and when they do he can either (a) write a more complex evaluation object or (b) implement an archive adapter | 17:16 |
th1a | OK. | 17:16 |
th1a | As long as you have some idea of how to do it. | 17:17 |
srichter | any way you take it, nothing would justify the overhead right now | 17:17 |
srichter | anything is possible with adapters | 17:17 |
th1a | OK, as long as we aren't completely boxing ourselves in to one evaluation per adapter. | 17:17 |
th1a | per requirement. | 17:17 |
srichter | but I think we are easily talking here about an improvement from sample data generation taking minutes or hours to seconds | 17:18 |
srichter | it is really much, much more efficient right now | 17:18 |
th1a | OK. You've convinced me ;-) | 17:18 |
mgedmin | seconds sounds good | 17:19 |
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th1a | mgedmin: Wait till you guys start generating attendance sample data. | 17:19 |
th1a | It is fun. | 17:19 |
srichter | for the sample data, grades grow alomost as fast as attendance objects | 17:19 |
alga | woohoo! | 17:20 |
th1a | alga: You may have to go buy more memory. | 17:20 |
srichter | because they are both student*section*(activities or days) | 17:20 |
* mgedmin now has 1 GB of RAM | 17:20 | |
alga | We have just upgraded to 1G with Marius | 17:20 |
alga | we can always revert to IceWM from Gnome... | 17:21 |
th1a | I think about 3G would be recommended. | 17:21 |
th1a | Well, I guess I tried to do it without doing periodic database commits. | 17:21 |
th1a | For that, you'd need about 3G I think. | 17:21 |
th1a | So I don't recommend that approach. | 17:22 |
alga | We need an option to scale down the sample data | 17:22 |
mgedmin | or make the storage more compact | 17:22 |
alga | even reducing the number of students alone 10-fold would be adequate | 17:22 |
mgedmin | a OOBTree that stores tuples, with nonpersistent AttendanceRecord classes constructed on the fly as proxies? | 17:23 |
th1a | definitely need to make the storage more compact. | 17:23 |
alga | mgedmin: in order to optimize the data you need a working system! | 17:23 |
mgedmin | we already have it, no? | 17:23 |
th1a | We need a full size working system. | 17:23 |
alga | with sample data, no | 17:23 |
alga | th1a: eventually, yes | 17:23 |
srichter | mgedmin: you could always write your own __reduce__ method | 17:24 |
srichter | so I agree a global, nonpersistent class is the way to go | 17:25 |
srichter | I am thinking that we will eventually want that for scoresystems as well | 17:25 |
mgedmin | levels, iirc, was another thing that ate a lot of time for sample data generation | 17:26 |
mgedmin | I don't think we measured memory usage | 17:27 |
mgedmin | I remember seeing a tool that listed largest objects in zodb | 17:27 |
mgedmin | with results something like "83% of space is used by 346663332 instances of FooClass" | 17:27 |
srichter | that would be cool to see | 17:28 |
th1a | I'm not very worried about how long sample data generation takes. I guess 10 minutes is probably a good target once we get into attendance & gradebook. As long as we don't eat memory and explode the database. | 17:28 |
srichter | yeah, in general I think we should slowly start to think about optimizations | 17:28 |
th1a | OK. Anything last words before our time is up? | 17:29 |
th1a | Let's have a productive week! | 17:31 |
* th1a bangs the virtual gavel. | 17:31 | |
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povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5636: | 18:30 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Code cleanup. | 18:30 |
povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5637: | 18:30 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Oops, got an implemented interface wrong. | 18:30 |
povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5638: | 18:33 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Developed and implemented category dictionary using option storage. I think over time option storage will proof itself very useful for other settings. | 18:33 |
povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5639: | 18:38 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Started some system integration. No worry, nothing is hooked up yet. | 18:38 |
alga | feeling productive today, huh? ;-) | 18:39 |
* mgedmin is trying to figgure out the difference between homeroom attendance form and the realtime attendance form | 18:44 | |
mgedmin | the only difference seems to be that the teacher is not allowed to mark tardies | 18:44 |
mgedmin | the sparkline might be different too | 18:45 |
srichter | alga: yeah, I am in a good mode right now | 18:49 |
srichter | it's nice to implement a topic that is well-understood for a change :-) | 18:49 |
srichter | mgedmin: alga: th1a: ignas_: btw, what do you guys think about starting to use zope.formlib? | 19:07 |
srichter | worth it? | 19:07 |
srichter | I have tried a couple of views for another project using formlib and I liked it | 19:08 |
srichter | also, any comments on switching back to the trunk of Zope 3? | 19:08 |
mgedmin | I have not tried zope.formlib yet | 19:16 |
mgedmin | I have heard good things about it | 19:16 |
mgedmin | I have thought bad thoughts about zope.app.form | 19:16 |
mgedmin | is zope.formlib bundled with zope 3.2? | 19:16 |
mgedmin | re trunk vs 3.2: I defer to jinty's judgement here | 19:16 |
mgedmin | ('cause I don't want to be the packager again) | 19:17 |
mgedmin | trunk is nice for development, but not so nice for deployment | 19:17 |
srichter | yeah | 19:18 |
srichter | (to zope.formlib) | 19:18 |
srichter | the approach zope.formlib is very nice and easy to work with; very pythonic | 19:19 |
srichter | it still feels a bit like the wild west; it was not developed in a test-driven manner and code seems a bit inconstistent | 19:19 |
srichter | The great thing is that it is super easy to write display and edit forms using the same view class, just by switching a flag. | 19:20 |
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erchache | ey | 20:24 |
erchache | what happs with linguaplone? | 20:24 |
erchache | th1a | 20:26 |
erchache | alga | 20:26 |
erchache | mgedmin | 20:26 |
alga | para bailar la bamba! | 20:26 |
erchache | jajajaja | 20:26 |
erchache | alga: hablas espaƱol? | 20:27 |
alga | trying to learn ;-) | 20:27 |
alga | online | 20:27 |
erchache | jejeje | 20:27 |
erchache | anybody talk about linguaplone devmeeting today? | 20:27 |
alga | don't remember anything like that | 20:28 |
alga | nope, noone talked about linguaplone | 20:28 |
erchache | ok...thanks for information | 20:29 |
erchache | i want to translate web content into spanish....and with linguaplone looks very very easy....too easy to add a product to plone server | 20:30 |
alga | aaaah | 20:32 |
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erchache | well....bye....i have a horrible work day today | 20:35 |
erchache | fucked backup! | 20:35 |
erchache | bye | 20:35 |
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th1a | mgedmin: I think the form for homeroom is exactly the same from the teacher's point of view. | 20:41 |
th1a | It just creates a day absence/tardy rather than a period absence/tardy. | 20:41 |
mgedmin | th1a, what does the sparkline show? | 20:41 |
mgedmin | usually it shows the attendance of the section | 20:42 |
mgedmin | in a homeroom form we also have a section | 20:42 |
mgedmin | should it show the same sparklane, but from day attendance? | 20:42 |
th1a | Well... I suppose it should show day attendance and tardies. | 20:43 |
th1a | Or perhaps it is ok to make it exactly the same. | 20:43 |
th1a | I think you should make it exactly the same. | 20:43 |
srichter | maybe a different color? | 20:44 |
th1a | It is essentially showing the same information. | 20:44 |
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povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5640: | 21:21 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Implemented category management view. | 21:21 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Hooked up ZCML. | 21:21 |
mgedmin | srichter, I see a new DeprecationWarning in schooltool/gradebook/browser/categories.pt line 19 | 21:55 |
mgedmin | "Automatic translation of message id's is deprecated and will be removed in 3.3." | 21:55 |
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povbot | /svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5641: | 21:56 |
povbot | /svn/commits: TimetableCalendarEvents now have day_id, and BaseTimetableModel now has an isolated unit test for its createCalendar method. | 21:56 |
srichter | thanks | 22:02 |
srichter | it's fixed in the next checkin which might take a while, but it's addressed | 22:03 |
mgedmin | great | 22:04 |
mgedmin | btw, what do you think about storing i18n.Message objects in the ZODB? | 22:05 |
mgedmin | good/evil/neutral? | 22:05 |
srichter | that's difficult, but without negative arguments: good | 22:06 |
povbot | /svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5642: | 22:36 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Make the attendance form distinguish homeroom from normal section meetings. | 22:36 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Currently this knowledge isn't used for much (just for the form title). | 22:36 |
mgedmin | whoa, what a nice test failure: http://source.schooltool.org/buildbot/pov-schooltool/builds/129/step-test/0 | 23:08 |
mgedmin | and buildbot attributed it to me | 23:08 |
mgedmin | th1a, the attendance form now distinguishes homeroom meetings from regular section meetings, and stores its data accordingly | 23:14 |
povbot | /svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5643: | 23:14 |
povbot | /svn/commits: The realtime attendance form now manipulates day attendance records when the section meeting occurs on a homeroom period. | 23:14 |
mgedmin | could you test it a little bit? | 23:14 |
mgedmin | does it do what you want? | 23:14 |
mgedmin | does it show status the way you want it? | 23:14 |
mgedmin | I expect at least the sparkline will need some modifications | 23:14 |
povbot | /svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5644: | 23:21 |
povbot | /svn/commits: Sometimes doing nothing may take 0.010000000000019327 seconds instead of 0.0. | 23:21 |
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mgedmin | see ya | 23:21 |
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