| povbot` | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5334: | 01:48 |
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| povbot` | /svn/commits: Initial attempt for a requirement framework | 01:48 |
| povbot` | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5335: | 01:52 |
| povbot` | /svn/commits: We do not want this file anymore. | 01:52 |
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| jelkner | paul, stephan, how is it going? | 23:06 |
| jelkner | (and i didn't mean to leave you out, mr. hoffman ;-) | 23:06 |
| pcardune | hey elkner | 23:06 |
| srichter | its going well | 23:06 |
| srichter | did you not see our checkins? | 23:07 |
| jelkner | no, but i take it you've been busy | 23:07 |
| pcardune | that would be a good assumption | 23:08 |
| jelkner | oh, do you mean email checkins? yes, i did see those | 23:08 |
| jelkner | sounds very exciting | 23:08 |
| srichter | yeah | 23:09 |
| jelkner | the idea that cando and the gradebook can share code | 23:09 |
| srichter | oh, so I guess you are not seeing cando checkins | 23:09 |
| srichter | we have restructured the package quite a bit | 23:09 |
| srichter | you can now use zpkgtools to create packages | 23:09 |
| jelkner | paul is going to start teaching me about cando/schooltool starting next week | 23:10 |
| srichter | also, you are not using a SchoolTool fork anymore | 23:10 |
| srichter | and we are fixing ST right now to overcome the previous limitations | 23:10 |
| jelkner | great | 23:10 |
| jelkner | paul, i have two questions: | 23:11 |
| *** dwelsh has joined #schooltool | 23:11 | |
| pcardune | hi dave | 23:11 |
| dwelsh | welsh here | 23:11 |
| jelkner | hey dave | 23:11 |
| pcardune | what are the two questions | 23:11 |
| dwelsh | happy tgiving to all | 23:11 |
| jelkner | yes | 23:11 |
| jelkner | dwelsh: why don't we start with any questions / concerns you have | 23:12 |
| jelkner | ? | 23:12 |
| jelkner | and i'll take it from there | 23:12 |
| dwelsh | Paul, I did send a couple of issues that emerged this past week. | 23:12 |
| dwelsh | Did you see them? | 23:12 |
| dwelsh | Problem with update links | 23:12 |
| dwelsh | Problem with mouse over | 23:13 |
| dwelsh | cc'd elkner | 23:13 |
| jelkner | paul wrote back about that | 23:13 |
| dwelsh | ok, haven't seen it yet. | 23:13 |
| pcardune | it's fairly lengthly | 23:14 |
| dwelsh | when did you send it? | 23:14 |
| pcardune | yesterday | 23:14 |
| pcardune | evening | 23:14 |
| dwelsh | hmmmmmm. didn't come thru | 23:14 |
| pcardune | i'll send it again | 23:14 |
| dwelsh | great. did you send it from your gmail | 23:14 |
| pcardune | yeah, i sent it to your gmail account | 23:15 |
| dwelsh | send also to David_Welsh@apsva.us | 23:15 |
| jelkner | i didn't even know welsh had a gmail account | 23:15 |
| dwelsh | rdavidw@gmail.com | 23:16 |
| dwelsh | but did Paul send it from his gmail acct. | 23:16 |
| jelkner | yeah, i saw that yesterday, and added it to my address book | 23:16 |
| jelkner | yes | 23:16 |
| dwelsh | what was the upshot of the email | 23:16 |
| pcardune | i just resent it from my gmail account to your aps account | 23:16 |
| dwelsh | got it. | 23:16 |
| jelkner | ok, while dave reads that, let me ask a question | 23:17 |
| jelkner | pcardune: when and how can we get mitchell integrated into this project? | 23:17 |
| jelkner | he is chomping at the bit to join in, and i keep telling him to wait | 23:18 |
| jelkner | that is generally not a good thing | 23:18 |
| dwelsh | gotcha... no apostraphes | 23:18 |
| pcardune | well, he can start now i suppose | 23:18 |
| jelkner | could you please email him and get him going? | 23:18 |
| dwelsh | if you could look up update links... something not right htere | 23:19 |
| pcardune | at very least he can get to know the code, and I will provide any help he needs in understanding that. | 23:19 |
| pcardune | sure, I can email him about that | 23:19 |
| jelkner | the best thing is to give him something useful to do that will get him going | 23:19 |
| pcardune | dwelsh, that is an odd problem. With the new architecture me and stephan came up yesterday, there wont even be an update links | 23:20 |
| dwelsh | I have two questions about architecture... | 23:20 |
| dwelsh | 1) how do you know if your architecture is good, other than walking down that path? | 23:20 |
| dwelsh | 2) how long will it take to implement new architecture... is at a redo from ground up, or additions to what we have | 23:20 |
| pcardune | jelkner, yeah, I am trying to think of something that is small enough, and can be decoupled from the rest of cando | 23:20 |
| dwelsh | get rid of update links, definitely a good thing | 23:21 |
| jelkner | pcardune: talk to stephan about that, and then send him the email as soon as you can (today or tomorrow would be *great* ;-) | 23:21 |
| pcardune | I know the architecture is good because both stephan and tom agreed that is was good. | 23:21 |
| jelkner | ahh peer review! | 23:22 |
| dwelsh | so you guys putting your heads together reached consensus of the way you should go? | 23:22 |
| srichter | well, we know the architecture is at least sufficient, sicne it covers all your current use cases | 23:22 |
| dwelsh | gotcha. | 23:23 |
| dwelsh | Then what about time to implement... are we into rewriting, or adding to? | 23:23 |
| pcardune | a little bit of both | 23:23 |
| srichter | also, Tom has implemented this problem domain before, so he was knowledgable | 23:23 |
| srichter | and all his previous use cases were covered as well | 23:23 |
| jelkner | yes, i have a question about how this relates to cando 2005 vs. cando 2006 | 23:23 |
| dwelsh | did you guys talk a timeline for implementing new architecture? | 23:24 |
| jelkner | we need to keep the current version running for this year | 23:24 |
| dwelsh | right... and keep fixing the bugs as they arise | 23:24 |
| jelkner | while we begin banging away on the new version | 23:24 |
| jelkner | so how do you see both of those things happening? | 23:24 |
| th1a | Hi guys. | 23:25 |
| jelkner | th1a: hi tom | 23:25 |
| dwelsh | happy tgiving, tom | 23:25 |
| th1a | I think that we're going to be able to share enough code that the necessary re-architecting load won't be too bad. | 23:25 |
| th1a | Since we'll have CanDo and SchoolTool contributions. | 23:25 |
| dwelsh | that's hopeful | 23:26 |
| pcardune | the bugs for the 2005 release I can fix... as soon as we get functional tests working in that branch (since it's not built into zope3.1) we will do that tomorrow | 23:26 |
| jelkner | pcardune: but keep in mind paul, that you still need to fix dave's bugs in the *current* version | 23:26 |
| dwelsh | I'm assuming we're talking about getting to work on ST/CD 2006, as we support 2005 | 23:26 |
| jelkner | so saying "that problem will go away in the new version" doesn't help for this year | 23:26 |
| jelkner | dwelsh: exactly | 23:27 |
| pcardune | yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I will fix the problem in the current version, i just wasn't able to in the last week because ftests weren't working. Me and srichter will fix that tommorow | 23:27 |
| jelkner | great | 23:27 |
| dwelsh | I'm removing apostrophes as we speak... | 23:28 |
| jelkner | mitchell will join in on the new version | 23:28 |
| jelkner | and i will be willing to test the new version as soon as you say i can | 23:29 |
| jelkner | i've got a small class at hb (4 brave students) who are excited about being Guinea pigs | 23:29 |
| dwelsh | who/how many will be working on school tool 2006? | 23:30 |
| pcardune | so far, me and mitchell | 23:30 |
| srichter | at least they will learn early in their lives that being rat labs sucks! :-) | 23:30 |
| jelkner | you mean cando, dave is asking about schooltool | 23:30 |
| dwelsh | I mean School Tool, not CanDo | 23:30 |
| jelkner | lol | 23:30 |
| pcardune | oh oops | 23:31 |
| jelkner | th1a: tom? | 23:31 |
| th1a | POV, Stephan, me and someone else. | 23:31 |
| dwelsh | So four people? | 23:31 |
| th1a | POV is four people, but probably half time. | 23:32 |
| dwelsh | So seven folks? | 23:32 |
| dwelsh | four of them half-time | 23:32 |
| th1a | Probably one more person. | 23:32 |
| dwelsh | gotcha. | 23:32 |
| th1a | Working out an actual budget now. | 23:33 |
| dwelsh | Will CanDo development happen in parallel, or does ST 2006 have to get to a certain point? | 23:33 |
| jelkner | is it correct to say that paul will also be working on schooltool? | 23:34 |
| jelkner | that is what i understood your email yesterday to say | 23:34 |
| dwelsh | It's more correct to say that Paul ALSO will be... (don't split the infinitive) | 23:34 |
| jelkner | lol | 23:35 |
| pcardune | well, that's assuming they let me have access to some small part of schooltool's repo (which is up to tom) | 23:35 |
| jelkner | my understanding is that cando and the new gradebook will share code, and that paul will be working on that with tom | 23:36 |
| jelkner | while we wait for tom to chime in, let's move on... | 23:37 |
| th1a | Sorry. Blew a fuse. | 23:37 |
| dwelsh | Just to chime in on a sense of timeline... | 23:37 |
| dwelsh | We should aim to finish bulk of code by end of July. | 23:37 |
| dwelsh | Because it basically takes a month to test. | 23:38 |
| th1a | I'll bring a contributor agreement for Paul tomorrow. | 23:38 |
| dwelsh | And another month of nailing smaller bugs | 23:38 |
| dwelsh | We were about a month behind this year. | 23:38 |
| jelkner | actually, we want to be ready for the dapper release in april, yes? | 23:38 |
| th1a | Actually, we're aiming at having the bulk of the ST 2006 code done by April. | 23:38 |
| dwelsh | The earlier the better. | 23:38 |
| th1a | We won't really have a final release in Dapper. | 23:39 |
| dwelsh | I just think that July 31 as a kind of drop-dead date for any major coding is an important date. | 23:39 |
| th1a | Not sure how we'll want to handle it. | 23:39 |
| jelkner | a time line is a good thing | 23:39 |
| th1a | I'm thinking of June 31 as the drop dead date for ST. | 23:39 |
| dwelsh | Again, even better. | 23:39 |
| dwelsh | With CanDo, we coded until the end of August. | 23:40 |
| dwelsh | Leaving Sept. for major bugs. | 23:40 |
| jelkner | not good | 23:40 |
| dwelsh | Oct. for minor ones. | 23:40 |
| jelkner | we don't want to do that again | 23:40 |
| dwelsh | Little late in the process. | 23:40 |
| jelkner | and we won't have to | 23:40 |
| dwelsh | No complaints. The work was great. We were getting into the game. | 23:40 |
| jelkner | heavy development begins now | 23:40 |
| dwelsh | But now we're older and wiser. | 23:40 |
| pcardune | well, considering that we started writing cando in mid june... i'd say that is pretty good | 23:40 |
| dwelsh | Yes. Amazing job, really. | 23:41 |
| jelkner | oh, i'm not complaining! | 23:41 |
| jelkner | my only point is that we are now starting development in november | 23:41 |
| jelkner | so we easily be ready by late spring with all new features | 23:41 |
| th1a | I'm extremely excited about what we accomplished yesterday. | 23:41 |
| dwelsh | Great job, guys. | 23:42 |
| jelkner | cool! | 23:42 |
| dwelsh | Import/export functions will be important to CanDo. | 23:42 |
| dwelsh | I'm actually doing this work manually for teachers. | 23:42 |
| dwelsh | But we need to be able to import all students in the system. | 23:42 |
| jelkner | pcardune: what about getting mitchell to work on that | 23:42 |
| jelkner | ? | 23:42 |
| dwelsh | As well as import all existing competency lists. | 23:42 |
| th1a | Importing to and from what? | 23:42 |
| dwelsh | It really feels like help to instructors if you can hand them a system that is basically set-up. | 23:43 |
| jelkner | th1a: well, for the competencies, we are scrapping the virginia cte website :-( | 23:43 |
| dwelsh | Then they can focus on grading, tweaking competencies, creating curriculum. | 23:43 |
| dwelsh | Just what they should be doing. | 23:43 |
| jelkner | that's where the competencies currently exist | 23:43 |
| srichter | Is there some standard for describing those competency lists? | 23:43 |
| pcardune | dwelsh, we just need that cte harvestor to actually work... import and export of competencies is already implemented in working in the version you have now | 23:43 |
| jelkner | in the longer term, it would be nice to get them to publish them in some xml file format for us to use | 23:44 |
| th1a | There are some relevant standards. | 23:44 |
| jelkner | but now we only have html | 23:44 |
| th1a | Where is the cte website? | 23:44 |
| srichter | ok, so there is no standard | 23:44 |
| jelkner | hold on | 23:44 |
| dwelsh | www.cteresource.org/tasklists/index.html | 23:44 |
| srichter | in this case you have the fortunate situation to propose a standard :-) | 23:44 |
| dwelsh | we could probably get the state to work with us on this one. | 23:45 |
| jelkner | srichter: yes | 23:45 |
| srichter | right, I think you guys should write a draft | 23:45 |
| jelkner | once we figure out what to propose, we will do that ;-) | 23:45 |
| jelkner | srichter: i'm not sure what it would look like? | 23:46 |
| jelkner | proposing a standard is beyond my competency | 23:46 |
| jelkner | without guidance at least | 23:46 |
| pcardune | (we could track your competency in that you know) | 23:46 |
| th1a | There is some prior work here. | 23:46 |
| srichter | well, you basically are going to describe the XML format that contains the competency lists | 23:47 |
| srichter | th1a: do you have links? | 23:47 |
| th1a | http://www.jesandco.org/ASF/default.asp | 23:47 |
| dwelsh | Welsh will need to sign-off shortly. | 23:48 |
| jelkner | th1a: which document should i begin reading? | 23:48 |
| th1a | Hm... not sure. | 23:48 |
| dwelsh | But when I bow my head over my steaming turkey on Thursday | 23:48 |
| th1a | I can send an email to the guy behind this. | 23:48 |
| dwelsh | I will not forget to give thanks for pcardune, sricheter, th1a and jelkner | 23:49 |
| jelkner | dwelsh: is there anything else you want to discuss before you go? | 23:49 |
| th1a | dwelsh is full of the Thanksgiving spirit. | 23:49 |
| jelkner | and dwelsh, let's not forget to thank dwelsh! | 23:49 |
| dwelsh | A shared timeline would help. | 23:49 |
| dwelsh | It would help keep us on the same page. | 23:50 |
| dwelsh | And then let's just make sure we keep supporting the current version. | 23:50 |
| th1a | I'm going to be working on gradebook this month. | 23:50 |
| th1a | I mean, next month. | 23:50 |
| dwelsh | I'm excited already about ST/CD 2006. | 23:50 |
| dwelsh | Good luck with the rest of your work tomorrow. | 23:52 |
| th1a | Happy Thanksgiving, Dave. | 23:52 |
| jelkner | ok, dave, happy thanksgiving! | 23:52 |
| *** dwelsh has left #schooltool | 23:52 | |
| jelkner | pcardune, srichter: what about asking mitchell to work on import/export? | 23:53 |
| srichter | well, he could do that | 23:54 |
| jelkner | it seems to meet the requirements: | 23:54 |
| srichter | but the format must be documented well, so other parties will pick it up | 23:54 |
| jelkner | it is tangential enough that it won't harm progress | 23:54 |
| th1a | Where's that main CanDo page? | 23:55 |
| th1a | What's the URL? | 23:55 |
| jelkner | which page? | 23:55 |
| th1a | At the school. | 23:55 |
| jelkner | google for Arlington Career Center | 23:55 |
| jelkner | it is linked off the main page | 23:55 |
| jelkner | i'll get it... | 23:55 |
| th1a | Got it. | 23:55 |
| th1a | I always want to call it a career academy. | 23:56 |
| jelkner | http://www.careercenter.arlington.k12.va.us/cando/index.htm | 23:56 |
| jelkner | pcardune: i want some resolution on mitchell | 23:57 |
| pcardune | i dont think mitchell should use any of the web harvesting code the wrote before | 23:57 |
| jelkner | why? | 23:57 |
| pcardune | so he can do that, and it will be useful... but it wont be a part of cando | 23:57 |
| jelkner | there are two pieces to this: | 23:57 |
| jelkner | 1. importing into cando from a standard import format | 23:58 |
| pcardune | jelkner, have you looked at it? it consists of about 10 different py files and several folders that store all sorts of versions of the web pages... stripped down in various ways... its nearly incomprehensible | 23:58 |
| jelkner | 2. scrapping the virginia cte site to get the html transformed into that format | 23:58 |
| jelkner | part 2 is throw away code | 23:58 |
| jelkner | it doesn't matter how bad it is | 23:59 |
| jelkner | as long as it works | 23:59 |
| jelkner | part 1 is part of cando | 23:59 |
| jelkner | that is the important part | 23:59 |
| jelkner | but we need 2 just once | 23:59 |
| pcardune | well, currently it doesn't work... and trying to figure out how to make it work is a near impossible task as me and george paci found out a few months back | 23:59 |
| povbot` | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5336: | 23:59 |
| jelkner | or until we convince virginia to publish there competencies in our format | 23:59 |
| povbot` | /svn/commits: Made the test weaker, but more flexible. This way third party software will not break this test. Please refrain from writing those type of tests. They are always brittle. | 23:59 |
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