| *** ignas has joined #schooltool | 01:33 | |
| *** Aiste_ has joined #schooltool | 02:41 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 02:41 | |
| *** Aiste_ has quit IRC | 02:57 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 03:05 | |
| *** didymo has joined #schooltool | 07:27 | |
| *** JohnnyST has quit IRC | 07:52 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 07:52 | |
| *** tiredbones has quit IRC | 07:52 | |
| *** th1a has quit IRC | 07:52 | |
| *** Ricey has quit IRC | 07:52 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 07:52 | |
| *** tiredbones has joined #schooltool | 07:52 | |
| *** th1a has joined #schooltool | 07:52 | |
| *** JohnnyST has joined #schooltool | 07:52 | |
| *** Ricey has joined #schooltool | 07:52 | |
| *** th1a has quit IRC | 07:52 | |
| *** th1a has joined #schooltool | 08:26 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 10:36 | |
| *** vidasp has joined #schooltool | 10:54 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 10:57 | |
| *** SteveA has joined #schooltool | 10:59 | |
| *** mgedmin has joined #schooltool | 11:10 | |
| *** vidasp has quit IRC | 11:26 | |
| *** didymo has quit IRC | 13:24 | |
| *** ignas has quit IRC | 13:32 | |
| *** vidasp has joined #schooltool | 13:34 | |
| *** ignas has joined #schooltool | 14:14 | |
| *** newnick has joined #schooltool | 14:14 | |
| *** strichter has joined #schooltool | 14:36 | |
| *** srichter has quit IRC | 14:36 | |
| *** strichter is now known as srichter | 14:36 | |
| *** thisfred has joined #schooltool | 14:43 | |
| *** jinty has joined #schooltool | 15:12 | |
| *** pcardune has joined #schooltool | 15:14 | |
| ignas | hi | 15:22 |
|---|---|---|
| th1a | HEy. | 15:22 |
| *** pips1 has joined #schooltool | 15:22 | |
| srichter | good morning | 15:23 |
| th1a | Is alga around? He's not wind surfing yet is he? | 15:25 |
| ignas | he's kind of sick :/ | 15:26 |
| th1a | Ah. I'm kind of sick too :-( | 15:26 |
| th1a | pcardune: Where are you? | 15:27 |
| srichter | beside me in my office | 15:28 |
| th1a | Excellent. | 15:28 |
| th1a | Jetlagged? | 15:28 |
| pcardune | im doing alright actually | 15:29 |
| th1a | Good. | 15:29 |
| pips1 | hi, count me in on the sickly club too :-( | 15:29 |
| th1a | Hi pips1. | 15:29 |
| th1a | OK, let's get started. | 15:30 |
| pips1 | hi, th1a | 15:30 |
| th1a | So have the rest of the POV-ites had a look at the attendance stories? | 15:30 |
| pips1 | not all at once! | 15:31 |
| pips1 | ;-) | 15:32 |
| th1a | ignas, mgedmin, vidasp? | 15:32 |
| mgedmin | th1a | 15:33 |
| mgedmin | re: looking... probably not | 15:34 |
| th1a | OK. | 15:34 |
| th1a | Regardless, based on my conversation with alga, we probably need to discuss why and how we want to use workflows in the attendance system. | 15:35 |
| th1a | In general in SchoolTool, when we've got administrative workflows which will vary frequently, we're going to use WfMC workflows. | 15:35 |
| th1a | In attendance, we'll be doing this for individual instances of absences, | 15:36 |
| th1a | to cover the steps in their resolution. | 15:36 |
| th1a | i.e., if an excuse is submitted and the absence is excused or not. | 15:36 |
| ignas | whad do you mean by - "will vary frequently" ? | 15:37 |
| *** alga has joined #SchoolTool | 15:37 | |
| ignas | hi | 15:37 |
| th1a | Hi alga. | 15:37 |
| mgedmin | hi alga | 15:37 |
| th1a | I mean, the process for processing and clearing absences will frequently be different. | 15:38 |
| pips1 | hi | 15:38 |
| th1a | For example, sometimes the absence will automatically become unexcused after X days. | 15:38 |
| ignas | but from what i have seen different cases would require programming with wfmc or wihtout it ... | 15:38 |
| srichter | you mean accross schools, right? | 15:39 |
| th1a | Across different schools. | 15:39 |
| th1a | Yes. | 15:39 |
| th1a | srichter is good at explaining the rationale for this. | 15:39 |
| srichter | ignas: this is too vague of a statement to make it useful | 15:39 |
| th1a | Hint hint. | 15:39 |
| srichter | for one, the programming required will be much less for WfMC | 15:40 |
| srichter | you only need to implement new work items and their views, which will naturally fit into the look and feel | 15:40 |
| srichter | instead of rewriting logic | 15:40 |
| alga | er, hi | 15:40 |
| srichter | the second and much, much more important point is that administrators can feel copnfident that their process is enforced | 15:41 |
| th1a | To me, this is about writing SchoolTool so that it will be more easily modified and maintained by different people over a period of years. | 15:41 |
| srichter | they can look at the workflow definition and say "Yep, this is how our school does it." and that's it | 15:41 |
| th1a | They can look at the workflow definition in a graphical editor. | 15:42 |
| srichter | there is no need to prove the correct functioning of the workflow anymore; an administrator cannot follow code anyways | 15:42 |
| srichter | yep | 15:42 |
| srichter | a workflow also is an extension mechanism | 15:43 |
| srichter | if you want something else to happen at a certain activity, you can simply add another application to it | 15:43 |
| th1a | This is not to say that it will be magic. Some programming will be necessary, but the process will be more structured. | 15:43 |
| srichter | or,if your school has an addition side-workflow, it is very easy to hook into this workflow on a logical level | 15:44 |
| srichter | right, it is not magical, but much easier to argue/discuss with | 15:44 |
| pips1 | I am kind of hesitant to chip in to the conversation about WfMC in Schooltool, since I don't know how much has been discussed on IRC before and whether I should read up on that before I try to join the conversation... | 15:44 |
| pips1 | srichter, th1a, when you talk about a visual editor, I suppose you mean something like Enhydra JaWE ? | 15:45 |
| th1a | That's exactly what we mean. | 15:46 |
| srichter | yep, JaWE it is | 15:46 |
| th1a | It isn't drop-dead simple, but it is a structure. | 15:46 |
| pips1 | right | 15:46 |
| srichter | and it is really nice | 15:46 |
| srichter | It allows you to assemble a workflow piece by piece | 15:46 |
| th1a | So... are we being persuasive? | 15:47 |
| alga | I think so | 15:47 |
| *** SteveA_ has joined #schooltool | 15:47 | |
| th1a | This is what's called a double-team. | 15:48 |
| th1a | I guess Lithuanians are familiar with basketball terminology. | 15:48 |
| * mgedmin isn't | 15:49 | |
| * Aiste is more than i would like to :) | 15:49 | |
| Aiste | erm | 15:49 |
| * Aiste is more than she would like to | 15:49 | |
| th1a | So... when is POV going to start this work? Should we wait to discuss details? | 15:50 |
| Aiste | alga: do we have a proposal? | 15:50 |
| Aiste | th1a: alga got suddenly ill today, so i did not get an update on this front | 15:51 |
| th1a | We should be close to a final proposal. | 15:52 |
| Aiste | th1a: if i have not overlooked something, POV can start work on this next week | 15:52 |
| th1a | OK. | 15:52 |
| alga | Aiste: the draft is in the wiki | 15:53 |
| Aiste | ok, I just found that out, thanks | 15:53 |
| newnick | alga, can you point me to the wiki? | 15:53 |
| pips1 | alga, is that an internal wiki you are talking about or is it public? | 15:53 |
| alga | It's an internal POV wiki | 15:54 |
| th1a | Also, as an aside, I got an email from bskahan yesterday. His father has become disabled, and he's been off caring for him for the past couple weeks. | 15:54 |
| th1a | pips1: The stories are on the SchoolTool website. | 15:54 |
| th1a | Go to SchoolTool 2006 roadmap. | 15:54 |
| pips1 | I see | 15:54 |
| alga | Mostly, I've been trying to estimate stories written down here: http://www.schooltool.org/products/schooltool-2006/releases/m2 | 15:54 |
| pips1 | I take it there is a bit of "backlog" from SchoolTool 2006 m1 — "halloween" — 2005/10/31 ? | 15:55 |
| th1a | Well... sort of. | 15:56 |
| th1a | The GUI work isn't really settled. | 15:56 |
| th1a | That's the big loose end at this point. | 15:57 |
| th1a | srichter: Can you specify the status of that? | 15:57 |
| pips1 | well, I kind of feel partially guilty, because "#6: REST Example" with my school's example turned out more complex than what was expected. | 15:58 |
| srichter | off topic: I finished the documentation work (phase 1) last week, so please have a look at the custom apidoc, specifically the new RESTive Views documentation module | 15:58 |
| th1a | pips1: No, it isn't your fault. | 15:58 |
| srichter | th1a: oh, the UI work? Okay, I would suggest we are working with it as we have always done | 15:58 |
| srichter | I think it will take us all some time to discover the capabilities | 15:59 |
| th1a | Well, what can we do now that we couldn't do before? | 15:59 |
| srichter | Once I will do development on ST again, i.e. the documentation stuff, I will start porting UI components to viewlets | 15:59 |
| srichter | we can separate the UI now | 15:59 |
| srichter | you can specify viewlets for a particular problem domain | 15:59 |
| srichter | and hook them into the templates | 16:00 |
| srichter | for example, currently the notes are hard coded into the person details | 16:00 |
| srichter | now we will only have a hook called "additional information" into which the notes can be placed into | 16:00 |
| srichter | the hope is that we eventually can decide which packages are in the distribution without worrying about code and UI dependencies | 16:01 |
| th1a | We have to make sure POV (and Paul and I) know how to do this. | 16:01 |
| srichter | yep | 16:01 |
| srichter | a really good example is the devmode | 16:01 |
| srichter | before I had to keep a complete copy of the master template to insert the developer mode menu | 16:02 |
| srichter | now we just have a hook at this place for which I can register viewlets | 16:02 |
| srichter | those hooks, btw, are called viewlet managers | 16:02 |
| srichter | see trunk/src/schooltool/app/browser/templates/view_macros.pt, line 36 | 16:04 |
| th1a | OK. We'll probably have to discuss the implementation in more detail next week. | 16:04 |
| pips1 | To me it looks as if there is currently lots of architectural work being discussed / implemented and not so much use case driven "features" ? th1a, how has the echo from potential schools been ? | 16:04 |
| srichter | I would suggest that everyone should at least read through the viewlet README.txt file | 16:05 |
| th1a | Well, we're discussing the architectural changes which have taken place in preparation for writing features, which POV will be starting. | 16:05 |
| pips1 | right | 16:05 |
| th1a | Also, I'm going to start writing the gradebook next week. | 16:06 |
| th1a | Time for me to put up or shut up. | 16:06 |
| srichter | viewlet README: trunk/Zope3/src/zope/viewlet/README.txt | 16:06 |
| pips1 | oh, you will do that, I see | 16:06 |
| th1a | I'm not going to do the whole thing. | 16:06 |
| th1a | But get a first pass done by Christmas. | 16:06 |
| th1a | We're going to contract the rest out, but I'm figuring out the budget for next year, and I haven't decided who to hire. | 16:07 |
| th1a | That is, I'm not sure who I can afford yet. | 16:07 |
| pips1 | There hasn't been much echo to the call for school test sites on the mailing list :-( | 16:08 |
| th1a | Oh, it has been coming to me. | 16:08 |
| th1a | It is no problem. | 16:08 |
| pips1 | can you tell us more ? hint hint | 16:08 |
| Aiste | th1a: I got a suggestion from someone I know about Slovak open source people who want work | 16:08 |
| Aiste | I am not suggesting them for anything but I promised that I'd ask... | 16:09 |
| th1a | What I really want to do right now is hire a very experienced team, because we don't have time to screw around. | 16:09 |
| Aiste | that's what i thought | 16:09 |
| th1a | pips1: I've got a few proposals, all of which seem reasonable. I really only needed two at this point. | 16:11 |
| th1a | I am going to be talking on the phone at 10:00 with the principal of a new school in Philadelphia who we're probably going to be working with. | 16:12 |
| pips1 | regarding POV re-doing the resource booking feature that got lost in the architectural transition to Zope3... will that be included in the proposals, as suggested by alga a while back? | 16:12 |
| th1a | I don't think so. | 16:12 |
| pips1 | :-( | 16:13 |
| th1a | http://sla.fi.edu/ | 16:13 |
| th1a | srichter: You're going to work on the sample product next, right? | 16:14 |
| th1a | Hm... seem to have lost srichter. | 16:17 |
| pips1 | alga, since you are ill, i suppose it's is a poor time to ask, but would since POV did the resource booking feature before, do you think it would take relatively little time to reimplenent it ? (hint hint) | 16:18 |
| th1a | Anyhow... that's about it. It'll be nice to get development cranking forward again next week. | 16:18 |
| pips1 | :-) | 16:18 |
| th1a | pips1: It just depends on how the estimates come out for the attendance work. | 16:18 |
| srichter | thyes | 16:18 |
| ignas | pips1, depends on the motivation ;) hint hint | 16:18 |
| srichter | th1a: yes | 16:18 |
| srichter | I got your mail and I like the idea a lot | 16:19 |
| pips1 | ignas, you mean, if users are screaming for the feature ? :-) | 16:19 |
| th1a | srichter and I have been bouncing around ideas for a sample product tutorial. | 16:19 |
| ignas | pips1, at the moment there is a "user screaming" not users :) | 16:19 |
| pips1 | exactly | 16:20 |
| th1a | It is tricky because we keep making the example to complicated. | 16:20 |
| th1a | too complicated. | 16:20 |
| ignas | but we are flexible - and we accept different kind of motivation too :) | 16:20 |
| pips1 | there haven't been to many users screaming yet, have there ...? | 16:20 |
| pips1 | maybe they need encouragement to scream more! :-D | 16:21 |
| th1a | Well, I think we have happy users using SchoolBell and SchoolTool in fairly simple ways. | 16:21 |
| pips1 | yes, you are probably right | 16:22 |
| pips1 | probably more SchoolBell users, I think | 16:22 |
| pips1 | the whole 'sections' machinery of SchoolTool is probably not used much yet and therefore we don't get more users asking for improvements to ST, I suspect | 16:23 |
| th1a | The current idea for the sample product is commendations. | 16:23 |
| th1a | That is, allowing teachers and admins to attach commendations to people and groups. | 16:23 |
| th1a | pips1: Yes, I think you're right. There wasn't really time for people to get that deeply into the system. | 16:24 |
| th1a | I think that does it. | 16:25 |
| * th1a gavels the meeting to a close. | 16:25 | |
| th1a | pips1: Do you use an LMS? | 16:26 |
| pips1 | moodle | 16:26 |
| Aiste | screaming is usually not much of a motivation | 16:26 |
| th1a | Moodle doesn't really use the idea of sections, right? | 16:27 |
| Aiste | more of a demotivation in fact | 16:27 |
| th1a | SOMETIMES ALL CAPS HELPS!!!! | 16:27 |
| Aiste | errr... | 16:28 |
| Aiste | yeah, to run away | 16:28 |
| pips1 | moodle's "units" are 'courses'... | 16:28 |
| th1a | Is a "unit" a group of people or content? | 16:28 |
| pips1 | group of content, I think | 16:29 |
| th1a | How do you designate a group of people working with that content? | 16:29 |
| pips1 | moodle is used by our computing departement, I need to take a better look | 16:30 |
| th1a | OK. No problem. | 16:31 |
| th1a | I saw a number of LMS's in Holland, and I'm a bit confused about how they model courses and sections. | 16:31 |
| th1a | I think it is partly because in universities, each course is only taught by one professor, whereas in schools, the same course is simultaneously taught by several teachers. | 16:32 |
| pips1 | yes, I think that is true | 16:33 |
| th1a | Although I'm sure you can come up with cases where the same course is taught by several professors in parallel. | 16:33 |
| pips1 | yes, as well | 16:33 |
| pips1 | th1a, how many people attended at openconference.net in Holland, you'd say? | 16:36 |
| th1a | About 100. | 16:37 |
| th1a | I think the organizers learned that you shouldn't let people register without paying. | 16:37 |
| th1a | The conference filled up quickly, but they had a lot of no-shows. | 16:37 |
| th1a | They were annoyed. | 16:38 |
| *** alga has quit IRC | 16:39 | |
| pips1 | re moodle, I don't think the concept of 'sections' exists there, only groups and courses | 16:40 |
| th1a | I'll have to look into it more. | 16:41 |
| pips1 | there isn't an overall school timetable in moodle, I think (not entirely sure though) | 16:41 |
| pips1 | I also need to look at it | 16:41 |
| th1a | The conference was good, but a bit too university/LMS oriented for me. | 16:42 |
| pips1 | ah | 16:42 |
| th1a | Still, I flew the flag and made some good contacts. | 16:43 |
| pips1 | what was the drawback of that ? | 16:43 |
| pips1 | the university/LMS orientation, I mean | 16:43 |
| th1a | Well, not many primary/secondary people. | 16:43 |
| pips1 | I think Schooltool still has great potential for universities too and integrating with an LMS like Moodle would definitely be a good thing... | 16:44 |
| pips1 | especially the moodle bit... | 16:45 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:45 |
| pips1 | you are aware of the online moodle demo at opensourcecms.com, right? | 16:45 |
| th1a | Yeah, I have access to Moodle. | 16:46 |
| pips1 | thought so | 16:46 |
| th1a | OK. I have to take a shower. | 16:47 |
| th1a | ttyl pips1 | 16:48 |
| *** th1a is now known as th1a|shower | 16:48 | |
| pips1 | I got to go, but I will be back with more nudging about the resource booking feature (drafting a spec, e.g.) later ;-) | 16:50 |
| pips1 | bye | 16:50 |
| *** pips1 has quit IRC | 16:50 | |
| *** th1a|shower is now known as th1a | 18:16 | |
| *** th1a has quit IRC | 18:19 | |
| *** SteveA_ has quit IRC | 18:39 | |
| *** SteveA has quit IRC | 18:41 | |
| srichter | mgedmin: can you give access to the cando repository? | 18:51 |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 19:03 | |
| jinty | srichter: as far as I know bskahan and th1a are the admins of that machine | 19:07 |
| *** thisfred has quit IRC | 19:30 | |
| mgedmin | srichter, no -- I don't have access myself | 19:44 |
| *** vidasp has quit IRC | 19:58 | |
| srichter | ok, thanks | 20:07 |
| srichter | I meet Tom later today | 20:07 |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 21:06 | |
| *** ignas has quit IRC | 21:18 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 21:29 | |
| *** hazmat has joined #schooltool | 22:54 | |
| *** hazmat has quit IRC | 23:11 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!