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| bskahan | http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/01/13/1554239&from=rss | 10:27 |
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| gintas | th1a, ping | 14:50 |
| gintas | would it be possible to change the time of the meeting? | 14:51 |
| gintas | Perhaps start it a few hours later or maybe postpone it for Tuesday | 14:51 |
| gintas | Marius and Albert may not be back from university by 16:00 UTC, and I'll have to leave for university at 16:15 UTC | 14:52 |
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| th1a | gintas: that shouldn't be a problem. | 17:03 |
| gintas | ok | 17:04 |
| gintas | then do we hold the meeting later today or tomorrow? | 17:04 |
| th1a | When could we do it later today? | 17:04 |
| gintas | I'm not sure | 17:04 |
| gintas | I suppose that 17:00 UTC could be more convenient for Marius and Albertas | 17:05 |
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| gintas | but they have already gone | 17:05 |
| th1a | What's everyone's schedule tomorrow? | 17:06 |
| gintas | I would suggest to plan starting at 17:00, and if Marius and Albert don't show up, then postpone it another hour or so, if it's not too much trouble for you | 17:06 |
| th1a | OK. We'll try that. | 17:07 |
| gintas | I'm free tomorrow, but I thought I heard Albert say something about some university business tomorrow | 17:07 |
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| th1a | jinty: what's your schedule like? The Lithuanians would like to push the meeting back an hour. | 17:27 |
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| jinty | not a problem. | 17:30 |
| gintas | yep, orders from the president | 17:33 |
| gintas | all Lithuanians are to push meetings back for an hour today ;) | 17:34 |
| th1a | Slackers. | 17:34 |
| jinty | I think there was a south american country that started to have national punctionality days | 17:35 |
| jinty | s/punctionality/punctuality/ :) | 17:37 |
| jinty | http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2238214 | 17:38 |
| th1a | bbiab | 17:41 |
| jinty | ??? | 17:41 |
| tvon | kj:w | 17:44 |
| tvon | er | 17:44 |
| tvon | So whats going on? Is the meeting delayed? | 17:45 |
| jinty | yep, apparently so | 17:46 |
| tvon | aight | 17:46 |
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| th1a | The meeting is delayed an hour. | 17:59 |
| bskahan | ok | 18:01 |
| th1a | Everyone's hung over from drowning their sorrows after the Steelers' loss. | 18:02 |
| th1a | Or perhaps that's just me. | 18:03 |
| bskahan | lol | 18:04 |
| tvon | heh | 18:13 |
| Aiste | who/what is Steelers? | 18:22 |
| th1a | My favorite (American) football team: http://steelers.com | 18:23 |
| Aiste | oh :) | 18:28 |
| Aiste | I probable haven't even seen an american football game | 18:28 |
| th1a | I wouldn't think so. | 18:28 |
| tvon | bskahan: you on jabber? | 18:32 |
| tvon | bskahan: deb http://ubuntu.arslinux.com/ unstable/ | 18:32 |
| tvon | sources.list line for f-spot 0.6 debs | 18:32 |
| th1a | tvon and bskahan: Did you do the upgrade hooks for the database? | 18:34 |
| th1a | OK let's get started and hopefully mgedmin and alga will get back soon. | 19:01 |
| gintas | yeah | 19:01 |
| gintas | I just returned | 19:01 |
| gintas | Marius and alga should show up soon | 19:01 |
| th1a | OK. | 19:01 |
| th1a | tvon & bskahan: ayt? | 19:01 |
| gintas | on the other hand, I'm not sure we can do much without them ;) | 19:02 |
| th1a | We'll see. If tvon and bskahan have wandered off, we really can't do much. | 19:03 |
| * jinty comes back from a 5 min enforced typing break | 19:06 | |
| jinty | Live cd's? | 19:06 |
| th1a | What are the issues? | 19:07 |
| jinty | None. | 19:07 |
| jinty | Ah yes, where can I put them? | 19:07 |
| th1a | Are you going to make one? | 19:08 |
| th1a | Actually, now that I think about it for a second that might be really helpful. | 19:08 |
| jinty | I wrote the ubuntu howto, so I made one during that. 0.8 based though. | 19:09 |
| th1a | Because I want an easier way for Windows users to test SchoolTool, but particularly at this inbetween state with Zope, it is kind of a pain. | 19:09 |
| th1a | If we did a live cd, it would take a little trickery to actually save anything, though, right? | 19:09 |
| th1a | It wouldn't be obvious to the non-technical non-Linux user. | 19:10 |
| jinty | The ones I have come with a pre-imported sampleschool. The user can play around with. But, of course, no changes will be saved. | 19:10 |
| th1a | OK. That makes sense. | 19:11 |
| jinty | Also nifty little icons on the desktop to start up firefox pointed at the server | 19:11 |
| th1a | Right. | 19:11 |
| gintas | are you talking about Ubuntu live CDs? | 19:12 |
| th1a | You can make temporary changes, just to see how it works, right? | 19:12 |
| jinty | yes, to both | 19:12 |
| gintas | I suppose that we could also put a live preconfigured SchoolTool instance on the CD | 19:13 |
| jinty | based on the hoary liveCD's | 19:13 |
| gintas | that could be run without installation from Windows | 19:13 |
| gintas | having to reboot your computer is a pain | 19:13 |
| th1a | gintas: that's not a bad idea. | 19:13 |
| gintas | I saw some discussions on zope3-dev about Zope3 on read-only filesystems | 19:14 |
| gintas | they might be pertinent | 19:14 |
| th1a | On the other hand, I could just create a big honking stand-alone installation, zip it up and put it on the website. | 19:15 |
| * jinty knowing little about windows runs for cover | 19:15 | |
| th1a | The problem here is that nobody working on the project likes or uses Windows. | 19:15 |
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| th1a | tvon: ping | 19:18 |
| th1a | bskahan: ping | 19:18 |
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| th1a | tvon: can you hear me now? | 19:19 |
| tvon | Yeah, hey | 19:19 |
| th1a | Where's bskahan? | 19:19 |
| tvon | I'm hunting him down right now | 19:19 |
| jinty | gintas: this live preconfigured instance - could you send me some links? | 19:19 |
| bskahan | re | 19:19 |
| gintas | jinty, that was just an idea | 19:20 |
| th1a | OK. Let's plow ahead, shall we? | 19:20 |
| th1a | 0.9 issues... | 19:20 |
| jinty | ok then.. | 19:20 |
| tvon | Okay | 19:20 |
| th1a | We don't have database upgrade hooks done, do we? | 19:20 |
| jinty | Th package currently deletes databases. | 19:21 |
| jinty | should it? | 19:21 |
| th1a | Hrm. | 19:22 |
| th1a | tvon & bskahan: do you know what needs to be done? | 19:23 |
| gintas | jinty, I think I was recalling http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2005-January/013015.html | 19:23 |
| gintas | it's not much, but the message implies that it's possible to run Z3 from a CD | 19:23 |
| bskahan | th1a: I think so, I thought decision was to do import/export for now though | 19:24 |
| th1a | I haven't been very decisive and/or clear about this, apparently. | 19:25 |
| tvon | I also understood we were going to be doing import/export | 19:26 |
| jinty | gintas: thnx, but looks like it will be a lot more work than my current 30 line makefile. Especially since i think I would have to install windows..... | 19:26 |
| th1a | jinty: I'll worry about Windows. | 19:27 |
| th1a | OK, well, I guess I mostly talked to mgedmin about doing the db upgrade stuff. | 19:27 |
| th1a | But you didn't have time to do it last week anyhow, so it is no big crisis. | 19:28 |
| th1a | But perhaps we can get it done quickly. | 19:28 |
| bskahan | I have to reread something marius sent me about it | 19:28 |
| bskahan | but I think it can be done quickly | 19:29 |
| th1a | It's nothing complicated. | 19:29 |
| th1a | But it should be in the release candidate. mgedmin and I discussed it here: http://source.schooltool.org/irclogs/%23schooltool.2005-01-11.log.html toward the end. | 19:30 |
| th1a | mgedmin | 19:31 |
| th1a | and the easiest way is to write a conversion script in ensureAppExists | 19:31 |
| th1a | 21:53 | 19:31 |
| th1a | mgedmin | 19:31 |
| th1a | that would recreate new objects with data extracted from old objects | 19:31 |
| th1a | I guess I can't really paste directly from the web page :) | 19:31 |
| th1a | Anyhow. | 19:31 |
| th1a | Other loose ends, problems before we do a release candidate? | 19:32 |
| jinty | Changing the default server ports for schoolbell. | 19:32 |
| jinty | any reason why schoolbell and schooltool should listen by default on the same ports? | 19:33 |
| th1a | I don't think so. | 19:34 |
| th1a | We might as well make them different by default. | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | I have a question | 19:34 |
| jinty | Good, It is one of the things stopping them from being installed together. | 19:34 |
| tvon | how would that translate into z3 though? | 19:34 |
| tvon | Meaning, at some point they will run however z3 runs, correct? | 19:34 |
| th1a | Yeah, I guess that's stop being an issue soon. | 19:35 |
| th1a | Eventually. | 19:35 |
| tvon | k | 19:35 |
| mgedmin | I think we will want to have standalone executables for schooltool and schoolbell, with separate config files | 19:35 |
| mgedmin | if people want to add schooltool/schoolbell into an existing zope instance, they will have to change the ports in zope.conf | 19:35 |
| mgedmin | in any way, it is a config file issue | 19:36 |
| mgedmin | back to my question: | 19:36 |
| mgedmin | when a manager logs into schoolbell, how does he find the administrative actions now that the start page is hidden? | 19:36 |
| mgedmin | e.g. looking at lists of persons/groups/resources, adding new ones | 19:36 |
| tvon | there is a 'manage site' link in the upper right area of the calendar view (which is now where everyon starts) | 19:36 |
| bskahan | its above the calendar navigation | 19:36 |
| mgedmin | oh, I see | 19:37 |
| mgedmin | I didn't notice it | 19:37 |
| th1a | It could probably be in a better place. | 19:37 |
| tvon | It should be placed better | 19:37 |
| mgedmin | I expected it to be placed in the navigation box on the left | 19:37 |
| th1a | Under the navigation links, I guess. | 19:37 |
| th1a | Right. | 19:37 |
| tvon | yeah | 19:37 |
| tvon | I'll move it | 19:37 |
| th1a | OK. Let's talk timezones. | 19:38 |
| th1a | I don't want to spend more than two developer/weeks on timezones. | 19:39 |
| th1a | At the most. | 19:39 |
| mgedmin | strawman proposal 1: we store time in UTC, let the users choose their timezone, convert all times into that timezone on display | 19:40 |
| th1a | I'd rather spend one developer/week. | 19:40 |
| mgedmin | this proposal breaks with the "breakfast in london, dinner in new york" use case | 19:40 |
| bskahan | I prefer that model over any others I've heard | 19:40 |
| gintas | I think that's quite OK | 19:40 |
| mgedmin | strawman proposal 2: we store time + timezone in the database, and always show that time + timezone to the user | 19:41 |
| mgedmin | this is clearly not acceptable for "distributed developer team schedules IRC meetins | 19:41 |
| mgedmin | meetings" use case | 19:41 |
| th1a | I'm not sure what you mean by time + timezone. | 19:42 |
| gintas | e.g., the user says that "Lunch" will happen at 2PM EEST | 19:42 |
| bskahan | storing in UTC with the time zone as an optional value in the form for events is a nice solution | 19:42 |
| mgedmin | I mean that for every timestamp stored in the database we would store (yyyy, mm, dd, hh, mm, ss, timezone) rather than assuming a fixed timezone | 19:42 |
| gintas | and whoever looks at that event sees 2PM, right? | 19:43 |
| mgedmin | proposal 1a: the user can choose a number of timezones for a short drop-down list in his options screen, and then can easily switch between them from a drop-down box in calendar views | 19:43 |
| mgedmin | one timezone is the default | 19:43 |
| gintas | the last one was wrong, don't listen to me | 19:43 |
| mgedmin | if only one timezone is selected, we do not show drop-downs | 19:43 |
| mgedmin | actually, we might start with 1 and allow interested open source developers contribute patches for 1a | 19:44 |
| bskahan | mgedmin: in that proposal how are we actually storing the date/time? | 19:44 |
| mgedmin | bskahan, UTC | 19:44 |
| Voblia | and add a hover on that would show times in up to 4 locations he has selected | 19:44 |
| mgedmin | a wiki page for "short fun projects that you could work to get into schoolbell development"! | 19:45 |
| gintas | sounds very nifty, but I'm not sure it's worth it | 19:45 |
| mgedmin | "ask friendly developers for advice on IRC" | 19:45 |
| bskahan | I think proposal one covers most use cases | 19:46 |
| th1a | We should take the approach which will allow the easiest extension to handle some of the more complex cases (which we aren't going to worry about). | 19:46 |
| tvon | I agree | 19:46 |
| mgedmin | if we store UTC timestamps as datetime objects with tzinfo != None, we're both backwards and forwards compatible | 19:47 |
| alga | +1 | 19:48 |
| th1a | That strikes me as the most reasonable way to do it. | 19:48 |
| th1a | But I don't really know :-) | 19:48 |
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| hazmat | is there an initial user in schooltool? | 19:49 |
| bskahan | hazmat: manager | 19:49 |
| bskahan | passwd: schooltool | 19:49 |
| hazmat | thanks | 19:50 |
| bskahan | np | 19:50 |
| th1a | So how long should it take for the "storing time as UTC" scenario? | 19:50 |
| mgedmin | it's mostly user interface work, I think | 19:50 |
| th1a | OK. Nothing too hairy. | 19:51 |
| mgedmin | one or two days work in the back-end to support timezone conversions and expression in iCalendar | 19:51 |
| mgedmin | an options page for a user | 19:51 |
| mgedmin | storage for user's timezone (e.g., zope 3 annotations) | 19:52 |
| bskahan | its mostly putting translation methods into all the forms and views | 19:52 |
| mgedmin | I hope it can be centralized somewhere | 19:52 |
| th1a | Are we comfortable having Etria doing that? | 19:52 |
| bskahan | I'm pretty comfortable, but I'm not sure I know of a centralized way to do it | 19:53 |
| mgedmin | in general, all calendar views perform calendar composition | 19:54 |
| mgedmin | I think we could bundle timezone conversion into that step | 19:54 |
| mgedmin | I'd have to look at the specifics more | 19:54 |
| th1a | Could you take a look at it in the next couple days. | 19:55 |
| mgedmin | ok | 19:55 |
| hazmat | umm.. silly enduser type question.. how do you add a calendar event? | 19:55 |
| Voblia | click on the icon that is on the calendar itself | 19:55 |
| th1a | Since POV has done all the serious calendaring work, it makes more sense to have you handle it if you can do it without interrupting the overall Z3 work. | 19:55 |
| Voblia | small one, on each hour | 19:55 |
| tvon | in the day view | 19:56 |
| bskahan | hazmat: using a release tarball or subversion? | 19:56 |
| th1a | With the little people. | 19:56 |
| hazmat | and btw. the default username should be in the readme.. | 19:56 |
| gintas | now I am thinking that we should add a clearly visible button 'Add an event' | 19:56 |
| hazmat | bskahan, svn ui branch | 19:56 |
| mgedmin | hazmat, it is, isn't it? | 19:56 |
| mgedmin | +1 for "Add event" button/link | 19:56 |
| Voblia | +1 | 19:56 |
| hazmat | mgedmin, doh it is | 19:56 |
| bskahan | add event button where? | 19:56 |
| bskahan | in the sidebar? | 19:57 |
| gintas | somewhere in a very visible place | 19:57 |
| mgedmin | maybe next to "Edit permissions"? | 19:57 |
| mgedmin | at the bottom? | 19:57 |
| bskahan | hm, ok | 19:57 |
| th1a | I'm not so much in favor of a separate "add event" button. | 19:57 |
| * jinty is busy changing the default schoolbell ports, REST: 7101, web:7180... | 19:57 | |
| tvon | and remove the 'add event' links per-hour ? | 19:57 |
| tvon | or in addition to (eg, for other views)? | 19:57 |
| bskahan | me either | 19:57 |
| mgedmin | in addition | 19:58 |
| th1a | I'd rather make the links in the calendar clearer. | 19:58 |
| Voblia | or even make the zones in the calendar clickable | 19:58 |
| bskahan | when we remove the booking link there it will make the zones clickable | 19:58 |
| tvon | I'd rather have a single add-event button and remove the hourly buttons | 19:58 |
| bskahan | and I believe that's more clear | 19:58 |
| th1a | Although I guess to add a separate link wouldn't really require making a new form. | 19:58 |
| bskahan | adding a new link adds to the clutter of the UI and takes you to somewhere you can allready get | 19:59 |
| th1a | Most desktop calendaring apps allow you to add an event by clicking (and dragging) on the calendar itself. | 19:59 |
| tvon | when we remove the icons and make the hour label clickable it will be a little better I think, though perhaps confusing since nowhere else does clicking a date allow you to create an event | 19:59 |
| bskahan | I think we can make the existing link more clear | 19:59 |
| mgedmin | palm has both | 20:00 |
| mgedmin | there's a button at the bottom, and you can also just click on a row and start typing | 20:00 |
| mgedmin | I am quite happy with palm's calendaring app | 20:00 |
| th1a | The real UI problem is having two separate actions -- events and resource booking. Once we merge them it'll be much better. | 20:00 |
| mgedmin | yes | 20:01 |
| th1a | And I suppose having a separate "Add event" link is a good idea. | 20:01 |
| Voblia | why not add one more item to the navigation menu ? | 20:01 |
| mgedmin | it's not navigation | 20:01 |
| * bskahan nods | 20:01 | |
| mgedmin | but maybe a separate "actions" box makes sense | 20:01 |
| tvon | Having the hour clickable gives us an automagic dtstart for the event (so the user does not have to select it). Though personally I don't think that is all that valuable | 20:02 |
| Voblia | navigation menu with 2 items looks kind of funny | 20:02 |
| tvon | There is some kind ofplan for an 'actions' menu that is not in place yet | 20:02 |
| bskahan | Voblia: it will grow | 20:02 |
| mgedmin | perhaps the "jump to" drop downs could be moved into the navigation box | 20:02 |
| Voblia | i see | 20:02 |
| mgedmin | anyway, we're going off tangents | 20:02 |
| mgedmin | I do not think redoing the whole UI before the release is a good idea | 20:03 |
| gintas | I'd like to leave in a few minutes | 20:03 |
| mgedmin | some more confusing things could be fixed, though | 20:03 |
| th1a | OK... | 20:03 |
| Voblia | if we are talking about the ui fixes, then i guess manage site should be an item in the navigation menu too | 20:03 |
| * jinty goes to remove that code that deletes the databases on upgrades. | 20:03 | |
| Voblia | ymmv though | 20:03 |
| th1a | We're not going to change the UI for 0.9. Don't worry. | 20:03 |
| hazmat | another end user question.. can i publish an ics file to schooltool? i thought some work was done on that... | 20:03 |
| mgedmin | e.g. making the "manage site" link more visible, making the calendar names in the overlay portlet not clickable | 20:03 |
| th1a | We'll make UI refinements before 1.0. | 20:03 |
| mgedmin | hazmat, yes | 20:03 |
| jinty | I think we are never going to make 0.9 perfect. Lets get the critical things done and move on. | 20:04 |
| mgedmin | hazmat, however the import does not preserve all information in ics files, only the bits that schoolbell knows about | 20:04 |
| th1a | OK. Here's what does need to be done for 0.9. | 20:04 |
| th1a | Etria: ASAP add upgrade hooks for the DB. | 20:05 |
| th1a | Other action item: | 20:05 |
| * gintas runs off. (I'll have a look at the log later) | 20:05 | |
| th1a | mgedmin is going to decide if they can mix adding timezone support into their Zope 3 contract. | 20:05 |
| hazmat | mgedmin, the resource url to publish the calendar to? is /persons/userid/calendar ? | 20:06 |
| mgedmin | hazmat, /persons/userid/calendar.ics | 20:06 |
| mgedmin | same url you use for downloading | 20:06 |
| hazmat | hmm.. i get an error with that using ical | 20:07 |
| * hazmat explores some more | 20:07 | |
| mgedmin | hazmat, you use ical? then specify URL /persons/userid and specify the calendar name on the server as "calendar" | 20:08 |
| th1a | hazmat: there are some gotcha's with iCal. | 20:08 |
| bskahan | hazmat: should probably use trunk at this point, the schoolbell-ui branch is merged back now | 20:08 |
| mgedmin | then iCal will do an HTTP PUT to /persons/userid/calendar.ics | 20:08 |
| th1a | I need to write up the iCal HOWTO. | 20:08 |
| * mgedmin reconsiders the idea of allowing HTTP PUT to /persons/userid/calendar.ics/whatevericalputshere | 20:09 | |
| th1a | So we'll release 0.9rc2 when the db upgrade is done. | 20:09 |
| bskahan | ok | 20:09 |
| bskahan | I think that can be tonight | 20:09 |
| th1a | Good. | 20:09 |
| bskahan | probably late for jinty | 20:09 |
| jinty | yes, bskahan, tvon, send me a mail, as usual | 20:09 |
| th1a | That's fine. | 20:10 |
| jinty | I'll release tomorrow | 20:10 |
| th1a | Fine. | 20:10 |
| th1a | Tuesday is going to be our default release day. | 20:10 |
| hazmat | mgedmin, ah cool, thanks.. i don't really use cal apps, but i'm trying to setup a cal server for a friend on a mac | 20:10 |
| mgedmin | I'd like to review the db upgrade code before the relase | 20:10 |
| tvon | makes sense | 20:10 |
| jinty | I want to raise a point for 1.0 | 20:10 |
| hazmat | bskahan, cool, thanks i didn't know that. | 20:10 |
| * bskahan nods | 20:10 | |
| jinty | moving the zope 3 external to a tag of the zope repository | 20:11 |
| jinty | ? | 20:11 |
| jinty | could we try? | 20:11 |
| th1a | hazmat: If your friend just wants a basic server to use with Apple iCal, SchoolBell might not be the best choice. | 20:11 |
| mgedmin | hazmat, a friendly warning: schoolbell might be a bit rough in certain places; we haven't completely polished the user experience | 20:12 |
| tvon | is there a 3.1 branch? | 20:12 |
| * jinty looks | 20:12 | |
| bskahan | tvon: it sounded like 3.1 was a few months off | 20:12 |
| hazmat | mgedmin, understood, twas why i wanted to try the ui branch | 20:13 |
| tvon | bskahan: yeah, but I think its all we can really target | 20:13 |
| jinty | no, no 3.1 tag | 20:13 |
| mgedmin | afaiu, trunk is 3.1-in-development | 20:13 |
| mgedmin | when 3.1 is released, the tag will appear | 20:14 |
| mgedmin | I wonder what we'd lose if we decided to go back to 3.0 | 20:14 |
| tvon | would there be any point in using 3.0? | 20:14 |
| * jinty wonders for how much longer he has to carry zope in the packages | 20:14 | |
| *** gintas has quit IRC | 20:14 | |
| jinty | security bugfixes? | 20:14 |
| mgedmin | does Zope corp. provide security bugfixes for 3.0? | 20:15 |
| jinty | I can't find anything, but there is a better chance of that than a random trunk revision | 20:16 |
| * tvon is asking in #zope3-dev | 20:17 | |
| hazmat | i doubt it | 20:18 |
| * hazmat thinks you can count z3 production apps on one hand | 20:19 | |
| bskahan | I'm going to have to run | 20:19 |
| hazmat | er. companies deploying that is | 20:19 |
| th1a | tvon & bskahan: are you going to need to discuss the db migration with mgedmin? | 20:19 |
| tvon | yeah, I wasn't expecting any releases before 3.1 | 20:19 |
| tvon | th1a: Probably. bskahan looked into migration a bit | 20:20 |
| tvon | bskahan: still there? | 20:20 |
| jinty | ok, but until we are compatible with a released zope 3, we will not be going anywhere near ubuntu supported or debain stable. | 20:21 |
| tvon | true | 20:21 |
| jinty | so, it would be nice... | 20:21 |
| th1a | This is the cost of living on the bleeding edge. | 20:21 |
| jinty | yep. | 20:22 |
| th1a | On the other hand, we'll all look like geniuses in a year. | 20:22 |
| th1a | Well, that's everything, so feel free to leave if you need to. | 20:23 |
| th1a | I need to go dig out our car. | 20:25 |
| * bskahan is still looking for Marius' email | 20:25 | |
| bskahan | I need beagle | 20:25 |
| bskahan | th1a: how much snow did you get? | 20:26 |
| th1a | I had three foot drifts over the sidewalk in front of the house. | 20:26 |
| tvon | lovely | 20:26 |
| *** bskahan has quit IRC | 20:30 | |
| mgedmin | are we finished with the meeting? | 20:32 |
| tvon | I do believe so | 20:32 |
| jinty | yep, a while back... | 20:33 |
| mgedmin | oh | 20:33 |
| jinty | anyone tell me how I can put myself on the automatic forward list for roundup? | 20:39 |
| mgedmin | you can't, I'm afaid | 20:40 |
| mgedmin | I can add you, though | 20:40 |
| mgedmin | if I remember how | 20:40 |
| jinty | If you would be so kind:) | 20:40 |
| mgedmin | roundup is inconvenient sometimes | 20:40 |
| *** bskahan has joined #schooltool | 20:54 | |
| * jinty is writing the release notes. | 20:54 | |
| jinty | bskahan: what database objects will be upgraded? | 20:55 |
| jinty | and what will happen to the rest? | 20:55 |
| bskahan | jinty: I'm trying to find that out now ;) | 20:55 |
| bskahan | I'll tell you as soon as I know | 20:56 |
| jinty | thanks, will leave a space for it... | 20:56 |
| bskahan | the plan as I understood it was too keep all the first class objects, people, groups, resources, etc | 20:57 |
| bskahan | I'm not sure how easy/hard it is to keep some things but not others | 20:57 |
| jinty | I think it was to stop people from having to re-enter all data again. | 21:00 |
| jinty | maybe they can survive some. | 21:00 |
| tvon | mgedmin: Do you recall sending bskahan or I an email about migration at some point? | 21:04 |
| * mgedmin tries to remember | 21:06 | |
| * mgedmin looks at mail archives | 21:06 | |
| tvon | was unable to dig it up in my or bskahan's mail | 21:06 |
| bskahan | we actually have a pretty good hook to test for ugrade states, the existence of community vs. root groups | 21:07 |
| * mgedmin realizes he is trawling through the wrong mailbox | 21:10 | |
| mgedmin | there are no recent emails that mention upgrading/migration in my sent-mail mailbox | 21:12 |
| mgedmin | I recall talking about that on irc, though | 21:12 |
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| bskahan | # Database schema change from 0.6 to 0.7 | 21:12 |
| bskahan | if not hasattr(app, 'ticketService'): | 21:12 |
| bskahan | should we keep that? | 21:13 |
| bskahan | from schooltool.main | 21:13 |
| mgedmin | we did not support upgrades from 0.7 to 0.8 | 21:13 |
| mgedmin | so there's no point in keeping that | 21:14 |
| bskahan | ok | 21:14 |
| mgedmin | although aborting with "database too old, can't upgrade" might be a good idea | 21:14 |
| bskahan | that should really be 0.7 though, not 6 right? | 21:14 |
| mgedmin | yes | 21:16 |
| jinty | mgedmin: whoops!!!! | 21:17 |
| mgedmin | ? | 21:17 |
| jinty | After what you just said, I think I might have to revert a patch | 21:18 |
| mgedmin | ah | 21:19 |
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| tvon | should this bother me: schooltool.browser.tests.test_acl.TestACLView.test_update_add wrote to sys.stderr ? | 21:46 |
| tvon | ./test.py schooltool | 21:46 |
| mgedmin | side effect of that deprecation warning | 21:46 |
| tvon | ah, okay | 21:46 |
| mgedmin | it would be nice to hide the deprecation warning | 21:46 |
| bskahan | first step to making migration play nice, create a new group 'community', move everything from 'root' to 'community', delete root | 21:49 |
| bskahan | since __name__ can't be changed | 21:49 |
| mgedmin | how do you move everything? | 21:51 |
| bskahan | pondering that now | 21:51 |
| bskahan | was hoping to just rename it | 21:51 |
| mgedmin | reusing the same objects is risky, as they may have references to the group you tried to delete | 21:51 |
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| mgedmin | by the way, why can't __name__ be changed? | 21:52 |
| mgedmin | oh, I remember, it is used for hashing | 21:52 |
| bskahan | there's a comment in AppObjMixin | 21:52 |
| bskahan | yeah | 21:52 |
| mgedmin | strawman proposal: create a new empty application object | 21:54 |
| mgedmin | iterate over all persons/groups/resources in the old app object | 21:54 |
| mgedmin | create new application objects with the same name and title | 21:54 |
| mgedmin | (skip all the root group, of course) | 21:54 |
| mgedmin | copy person info facets manually | 21:55 |
| mgedmin | copy calendars | 21:55 |
| mgedmin | recreate relationships | 21:55 |
| mgedmin | ignore timetables etc. | 21:55 |
| mgedmin | this way we are guaranteed to have valid data structures inside, and no references to stale objects | 21:56 |
| mgedmin | we lose some data and have to do a lot of manual copying | 21:56 |
| bskahan | th1a: back from shovelling? | 21:57 |
| th1a | Just this minute. | 21:57 |
| th1a | Reading over the conversation up to this point. | 21:57 |
| th1a | mgedmin's proposal sounds right. | 21:59 |
| th1a | I have absolutely no reason to think anyone is using SchoolTool for anything other than simple calendars. | 21:59 |
| bskahan | ok | 21:59 |
| th1a | ... | 22:00 |
| th1a | Could we easily retain the acl info for calendars? | 22:00 |
| tvon | The chances of us having this done by tomorrow are slim to none | 22:01 |
| bskahan | we've got persons, groups, resources as IApplication objects | 22:01 |
| th1a | OK. Wednesday? | 22:02 |
| bskahan | unless something tricky comes up I don't think its difficult, just time consuming, so wednesday is probably fine | 22:02 |
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| th1a | Keep it simple. | 22:03 |
| bskahan | we also have addresses, dynamic facets | 22:04 |
| th1a | I just don't want to completely hose people. | 22:04 |
| th1a | Screw those. | 22:04 |
| th1a | There's no reason to think anyone is using them yet. | 22:04 |
| bskahan | I'd like to get a definitive list of what we want to keep | 22:04 |
| th1a | Certainly. | 22:04 |
| bskahan | persons, groups, resources, calendars, URIMembership and URITeaching relationships | 22:05 |
| th1a | Is the basic data about a person (name, birthday, etc) in a facet? | 22:05 |
| bskahan | yes | 22:05 |
| mgedmin | PersonInfoFacets | 22:05 |
| mgedmin | ACLs | 22:06 |
| mgedmin | calendar subscription relationships | 22:06 |
| th1a | ACL's and subscriptions are a toss-up. | 22:06 |
| th1a | I just don't want people to have to recreate their whole organization. | 22:07 |
| th1a | Depends on how much of a bother it is. | 22:08 |
| bskahan | all IApplicationObjects, all calendars, Membership Teaching Subscription relationships, PersonInfoFacets | 22:12 |
| bskahan | can probably skip the Teaching relationship actually | 22:13 |
| th1a | I agree. | 22:13 |
| bskahan | but does that sound right? | 22:14 |
| bskahan | losses: addresses, dynamic facets, notes, acl, ??? | 22:15 |
| th1a | Yes. | 22:15 |
| th1a | acl would be nice... | 22:15 |
| th1a | more important than subscription relationships. | 22:16 |
| jinty | There is a problem with the debian database versioning..... (I broke it badly) | 22:16 |
| jinty | seems that I forgot to remove some old code before releasing 0.8 | 22:17 |
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| * bskahan wonders what that means | 22:21 | |
| jinty | I left a section in debian/rules to set the database version for schoolbell. | 22:22 |
| jinty | Actually, I'm not quite sure what will happen when a user upgrades from 0.8 to 0.9. | 22:25 |
| bskahan | heh | 22:25 |
| bskahan | what might happen? | 22:26 |
| * bskahan knows nothing about debian packaging | 22:26 | |
| jinty | They might be asked if they want to delete their database. | 22:26 |
| bskahan | ah | 22:27 |
| jinty | The easy alternative is to remove the code altogether. But then 0.7 > 0.9 upgrades will break. | 22:27 |
| * jinty is tired and needs to think this through properly. | 22:28 | |
| bskahan | 0.7 -> 0.9 upgrades (should work I think) but aren't explicitly supported | 22:28 |
| jinty | database wise? | 22:28 |
| bskahan | yeah | 22:28 |
| bskahan | you mean just 0.7 -> 0.9 upgrades in general will break? | 22:29 |
| jinty | No, I mean that if someone has a 0.7 installed and goes to 0.9 they should be asked to remove their database. They will not be | 22:30 |
| bskahan | ah | 22:30 |
| jinty | unless your code can handle that? | 22:30 |
| bskahan | I was looking to add code to ask them to do it manually | 22:31 |
| jinty | ash how? | 22:31 |
| bskahan | right now 0.6 -> 0.7 asks | 22:31 |
| bskahan | when you run the server it says "Incompatible DB" | 22:31 |
| jinty | really!! | 22:31 |
| bskahan | yeah | 22:31 |
| bskahan | and it should really do that for 0.7 upwards | 22:32 |
| bskahan | since 0.8 -> 0.9 is the first we're explicitly supporting | 22:32 |
| jinty | so, when the server is started, it just quits and says "incomatible database"? | 22:32 |
| bskahan | yes | 22:32 |
| bskahan | if the database was created with 0.6 | 22:33 |
| bskahan | and you try to run anything more recent | 22:33 |
| jinty | I think you are my saviour!!! | 22:34 |
| bskahan | heh, don't get too excited. I know what changed from 0.8 to 0.9 to hook on, I have to ask someone from POV for something from 0.7 to 0.8 | 22:35 |
| bskahan | nm | 22:36 |
| bskahan | I know | 22:36 |
| bskahan | yeah we can do that, I think marius agreed that we should before he left | 22:36 |
| jinty | perhaps you can just get the server to say that message when going from 0.7 to 0.9? | 22:36 |
| bskahan | it would be 0.7 -> 0.8 | 22:37 |
| bskahan | it needs to for people who aren't using debs anyway | 22:37 |
| bskahan | I have to move back to the office because I'm out of battery. Send me a mail if I need to know more | 22:38 |
| jinty | ok, I'll sleep on it | 22:38 |
| bskahan | ok, gnight ;) | 22:39 |
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