IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2013-07-19

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jelknerGood morning replaceafill!14:54
replaceafillgood morning jelkner :)14:54
jelknerpgully isn't here yet, but you and i could start now and he could read the log...14:54
jelknerthings are going well, methinks14:55
jelknermy daily quizzes are working to help me figure out how the class is doing, and to reinforce the ideas students may have missed in reading and disucssion14:55
jelknerthe automatic generation of skills seems to be working well also, aside from the bug i reported yesterday14:56
jelkner(which pgully did not say he fixed yet)14:56
jelknerdo you know what the problem is with that one?14:56
jelknerthe scores appear to be accurate14:57
replaceafillnot really14:57
jelknerexcept for students who have not taken any quizzes at all.14:57
replaceafilli still consider that feature (the one developed in pycon) "beta"14:57
jelknerof course14:57
replaceafillsince you just started using it "for real"14:57
jelknerbut that is what we are here for now, right?14:57
jelknerto test it and make sure it works.14:58
jelkneranyway, i'll talk to pgully when he gets here, but we need to fix that bug.14:58
jelknerso, the real reason i requested this meeting is to figure out what comes next.14:58
jelkneri would say that the experiment so far has been a smashing success from my point of view.14:59
jelknerbut i haven't entered in any skills scores directly yet.14:59
jelknerall skills scores have come from the ST quiz.14:59
jelknerI realize, however, that I will never have enough quiz items this Summer for all students to earn 3s on all the skills.15:00
jelknerAnd I don't need to.15:00
jelknerThey are now at the point that they have demonstrated many basic skills through their daily activity.15:00
jelknerThey don't need quiz items to measure them.15:00
jelknerWhat happens when I enter a skill score, and then click on "Update Skills"?15:01
jelknerThat's the issue at hand.15:01
replaceafillthe "overwriting" part, correct?15:01
jelknerPaul suggested yesterday that the simplest thing that could work is this:15:02
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jelknerCreate a new attribute on the skill that indicates whether it was machine or human generated.15:02
jelknerAnd don't allow machine generated to overwrite human generated.15:03
jelknerThat would be the proper agile approach for now, I think.15:03
jelknerSince it would address the need from my current user story.15:03
jelknerIt won't be the end of the story, however15:04
jelknersince it would prevent the kind of self initiated study we are aiming at for end of Summer.15:04
jelknerWe'll have to think more about that.15:04
replaceafillby skill i think you mean "evaluation", correct?15:05
jelknerAlthough we say "Update skills" and not "Update evaluations" ;-)15:05
jelknerAnyway, I start teaching at 8:30 am sharp.15:06
jelknerThat's all I wanted to address this morning.15:06
replaceafilli think we're already using a custom evaluation class for quiz15:07
replaceafillwhich at some point i considered a mistake15:07
replaceafillbut we needed to store the answer to the question somewhere15:08
replaceafillso, i don't see any problem sticking the machine generated flag15:08
replaceafilli've learned through quiz that you can do crappy design decisions (like the ones i've made) as long as you make sure everything works (tests)15:09
replaceafillxp after all :)15:09
jelkneras long as you are committed to refactoring, that is ;-)15:10
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replaceafilland for that you need the tests15:10
jelknerdon't want those code smells to get too bad!15:10
jelkneri leave that up to you, my friend.15:10
replaceafillbut my point is: users happy fast15:10
pgulleyreplaceafill, jelkner, good morning!15:10
jelknergood morning, pgulley15:11
replaceafillgood morning pgulley15:11
jelknerwe are just about done here, so pgulley's timing is perfect.15:11
pgulleySorry I'm late, had to run an errand before I came this way, took longer than expected15:11
jelknerit always does ;-)15:11
jelknerthis learn you must, young jedi!15:12
* pgulley bows dutifully 15:12
jelknerok, i told replaceafill what you and i discussed yesterday15:12
jelknerseems like i need to go teach class and the two of you need to figure out how to proceed.15:13
jelknerbtw. did you figure out why the students with no quizzes have scores?15:13
jelkneri forgot to ask you that yesterday15:13
pgulleyI couldn't trace it, no. There is a lot more digging I could do on that subject15:14
pgulleyI'll spend some time today sorting that one out15:14
jelknerperhaps replaceafill could help...15:14
jelknerits a serious concern15:14
jelknerok, anything else for me before i go?15:15
replaceafilljelkner, not from me15:15
pgulleylikewise, jelkner15:16
jelknerhave at then, you uber hackers! ;-)15:16
jelknerhave at it then, that is15:16
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pgulleySo replaceafill, I'm fairly certain the bug jelkner is describing is sort of inherant in the way skills are currently updated.15:18
pgulleyLike it's an unforeseen consequence of the way dreich and I wrote it, but an unavoidable one. That whole thing should be refactored at some point15:18
pgulleyAnd I can commit to doing that.15:18
replaceafillpgulley, agree15:18
replaceafillit needs further testing imho15:19
replaceafillthe current test for it is very basic15:19
pgulleyalright. Should I focus on that next, then, rather than jelkners new feature?15:20
replaceafilljelkner also wants the feature to not overwrite scores entered by the teacher15:21
replaceafillmaybe you can address both cases in one go?15:21
replaceafilli mean, the changes will probably be in the same area of the code15:22
pgulleyokay. I can do that15:23
replaceafillline 51215:23
replaceafilli think that's what you need to focus on15:23
replaceafillto fix the issue "students with no quizzes being evaluated"15:23
pgulleyperfect. Thanks, you just saved me a lot of time15:24
replaceafillfor the "not overwrite" part:15:24
replaceafilljelkner was suggesting adding a flag to the evaluation15:24
replaceafilli'm thinking that maybe we could use the fact the evaluator is None in that particular case15:25
pgulleyOh that's a really sneaky way to do that15:27
pgulleyI like that15:27
pgulleywait no-15:27
replaceafillin any way, the answered evaluation class i where you'd need to stick whatever flag you need15:27
pgulleyThis is for skills, no?15:27
pgulleyThe skills are what need that flag, not the evaluation15:27
pgulleyRight. jelkner's concern as he expressed it to me was that skills which he set at a certain level may be inadvertantly lowered by schooltool.quiz15:28
replaceafilli think he was using the wrong wording:15:29
replaceafilli think the route should be:15:30
replaceafill1. add a more complete test for the update "skills" feature15:30
replaceafillwhich shows students with no quiz taken getting graded15:31
replaceafill2. fix the feature to not do that15:31
replaceafill3. add the "don't overwrite" part to the feature (with a separated/new test)15:32
pgulleyBut I'm still unclear on how the "don't overwrite" part should work-15:33
pgulleyWe're concerned with skills there-15:34
pgulleydon't overwrite a skill if it was set by a teacher15:34
replaceafillit's an evaluation15:35
replaceafillteachers set evaluations15:35
replaceafillnot skills15:35
replaceafillskills are set by the manager15:35
pgulleyI  clearly need to poke at that some more to see what's going on15:35
pgulleyI can do that15:35
replaceafilla cell in the cando gradebook represents an evaluation15:35
replaceafilland remember15:35
replaceafillthose cells (evaluations) have history too15:36
replaceafillthat's important for this imho15:36
pgulleyyes, definitely15:37
pgulleyOkay, I think I have everything I need to get into this15:40
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replaceafilloops sorry, was disconnected :(15:42
pgulleyIt's all good!15:45
pgulleyI was just saying that I think I have all I need to get started15:45
replaceafillah cool15:46
replaceafilli'll go get some breakfast, bb in ~30 mins15:46
pgulleyreplaceafill, when you get back- is there any way I could get a snapshot of the current database in jeff's deployment?16:11
replaceafillpgulley, sure, let me get it16:11
replaceafillpgulley, done16:14
pgulleydanke schoen!16:14
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pgulleyreplaceafill, should UNSCORED be in the skill scoresystem?17:33
replaceafillpgulley, no17:35
pgulleyOkay. but is it okay if I pass UNSCORED as the score value to gradebook?17:36
pgulleybecause it's storing that anyway before I change it.17:36
replaceafillpgulley, what are you trying to do?17:36
pgulleyWell I figured out what was going on with the Update skills thing. There was a dict which wasn't being reset to zero everytime the function iterated17:37
replaceafillah ok, sounds right17:38
pgulleyI fixed that, but the consequence was that skills for which there are no evaluations get set to zero17:38
pgulleywhereas they should be unscored by default17:38
pgulley(and they are)17:38
replaceafillwhy don't you just skip them?17:38
pgulleyIt's not efficient in the logic I have set up already17:39
pgulleybecause students who haven't taken certain quiz items won't have evaluations for skills where everyone else will. In that case they need to be set to zero, not unscored17:39
pgulleyIt would require generating a list of all the skills for which there are quiz items at the begining of the update_skills function.17:40
pgulleywhich I could do, it just seemed like it would be uneseccarily complex17:41
pgulleywait. I'm not thinking through this right. I'd need to do that anyway17:41
replaceafillwell, i guess jelkner is ok with the 0 logic, right?17:41
pgulleyno, he wants skills which haven't been evaluated to appear 'null' in the cando gradebook17:42
replaceafillin any case, you can import UNSCORED from the requirement.scoresystem module17:42
replaceafilland pass that to evaluate(student, activity, UNSCORED, evaluator)17:42
pgulleyokay, that's what I wanted to do, i just wanted to make sure that wouldn't break anything. I seem to recall that the gradebook is a fickle thing, and I didn't want to get too deep17:43
replaceafillnp, passing UNSCORED as the score is safe17:43
replaceafillthat's what removeEvaluation does actually17:43
pgulleyokay, perfect.17:49
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pgulleyreplaceafill, I'm still having some problems with Selenium19:55
pgulleywhich aren't related to my tests19:55
replaceafillwhat happens?19:56
pgulleyError 111 - connection refused19:56
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replaceafilldoes this happens in both modes: bin/test and bin/test-headless?19:57
replaceafilland the test doesn't run at all?19:58
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pgulleyIt begins running19:59
pgulleybut stops19:59
replaceafillat a specific part?19:59
replaceafilltrunk tests run fine here btw20:00
pgulleyyes, at a specific part- but the code in the test at that point is essentially identical to code that runs without error a few lines prior20:02
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replaceafillif you push your current state i could try running it here20:03
replaceafillalthough i'm not sure if that really helps20:03
pgulleyIt's still possible I've just made a stupid mistake I guess.20:03
replaceafillat least you could point me to the line20:04
pgulleyokay, I'm running them again (I've just changed some things)20:05
pgulleyif it still fails to work, I'll push what I have20:05
replaceafillyou didn't have this problem in pycon, right?20:05
pgulleynope, I did not.20:07
pgulleyIt didn't work, I've pushed to my branch20:07
replaceafillon what line is dying?20:11
replaceafillline 126?20:13
replaceafillyou closed student120:13
replaceafilland then you're using it again20:13
replaceafillshouldn't that be student2....20:13
replaceafill    >>>"form-widgets-QuizItem-0").click()20:14
replaceafill    >>> import time; time.sleep(100)20:14
replaceafill    >>>"form-widgets-QuizItem-2-1").click()20:14
pgulleyOh lord20:14
pgulleyis what happend20:14
replaceafillglad we found it quickly ;)20:14
pgulleydanke schoen, again20:17
replaceafillfrancais seulement sil vous plait ;)20:17
pgulleyOui, monieur!20:22
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pgulleySo one last thing, replaceafill20:55
pgulleywith regards to pushing this fix to jeff's deployment20:56
pgulleyis that a safe thing to do, do you think?20:56
pgulleyIt would also push the auto-save thing, etc.20:56
replaceafilli'd separate the fix from the other feature20:57
replaceafillunless you think the "auto-save" is ready?20:57
pgulleyWell, it passes tests.20:57
replaceafilli saw you wrote a test for it, is it complete/strong?20:57
replaceafilli think using miliseconds is confusing btw20:58
pgulleyI think so20:58
replaceafilli mean, in the settings20:59
replaceafillwhy don't you use seconds20:59
pgulleythe feature is simple enough that there aren't any fringe cases.20:59
replaceafilland convert them in code20:59
pgulleyThat was a thing I thought about- it was just a secondary thing.20:59
pgulleyworth doing now, you think?20:59
replaceafilli'd suggest you clean those secondary things today, if you still have time21:00
replaceafilland i'll review/merge during the weekend21:00
replaceafillso jelkner can start using on monday21:00
pgulleyokay! I'll get on that then21:00
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pgulleyOkay, I've pushed for today21:22
pgulleyI'm popping out, I think.21:24
pgulleyMerci, replaceafill, I'll talk to you Monday!21:24
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