IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2012-04-02

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* th1a runs for coffee...16:29
th1ahi yvl, menesis, aelkner, replaceafill.16:31
yvlhey guys16:31
yvloh right!16:31
yvlcoffee! :)16:31
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon16:31
th1aAgh.  I just got April Fool-ed!16:32
th1aIt was a pretty subtle one...
th1aDefinitely an inside joke.16:32
th1aWould have been great for us though.16:32
th1aOK, I have a fe things.16:34
th1aI need some i18n screenshots for
th1aFor the panel slider thing.16:34
th1aI'd like a Spanish gradebook shot -- replaceafill.16:34
replaceafillnew gradebook or trunk?16:35
th1aAnd a Lithuanian journal shot -- yvl.16:35
th1aCurrent release.16:35
th1aYou can make it look the same overall, or change it a little if you're inspired.16:35
th1aAlso, appropriate names for the language, please.16:36
th1aNothing jarring to the native speaker.16:36
th1aNo Peg Jourgenson.  ;-)16:36
th1aI'd like this by Wednesday, please.16:37
th1aI have to get hold of aks.16:37
th1aOr if anyone else has an idea for a good non-Latin example.16:38
th1aNone of us knows Arabic, right?16:38
th1aMoving on...16:39
yvlsorry, no :)16:39
yvlwill send by Wed16:39
th1aI ended up spending some time last week trying to figure out how to update our contributor agreements, going back and forth with Mark a bit.16:39
th1aCanonical actually uses this:
th1a(which seems like something Mark probably funded at some point... )16:40
th1aSo anyhow, I'm going to have to finalize that so I can send something to intelli.16:41
th1a(and Critical Links)16:41
th1aAlso, I'm taking Friday off.16:42
th1aOK, yvl?16:42
yvltook last Fri off, also half of Thu16:42
yvlreally needed that16:43
yvlnow back in business, working on model importer16:43
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yvlif all goes well, replaceafill should be able to start working on16:43
yvlskills gradebook (not the projects one) by the end of this week16:44
yvlhe kind of can start doing that now, but with importer and some views it will be easier16:44
replaceafilli can polish what i have in the meantime16:45
yvl(like linking model nodes to the course)16:45
th1aLets go over that distinction because in chatting with replaceafill I wasn't sure if I followed.16:45
th1aWe'll have skills connected to courses (as CanDo does now)16:45
th1aCourse (and section) projects?16:46
yvlskills connected to courses16:46
yvlreplaceafill is doing section projects16:46
yvlcourse projects are TODO16:46
yvlthere's some meat on DM side for them16:47
yvlbut the whole logic is in the views16:47
th1aI don't think course projects are required.16:47
th1aThat is REQUIRED.16:47
yvlwe can postpone implementing them16:48
yvlkind of seemed reasonable, keeping course worksheets in mind16:48
th1aIt sounds reasonable, but the aren't a Virginia requirement at this point, right?16:49
yvlI think not16:49
th1aSo I think we're fine...16:51
th1aI just wanted to make sure we weren't thinking in different directions.16:52
th1aOK. Anything else yvl?16:52
yvlah, no16:52
* yvl done16:52
replaceafilli inserted a CanDo tab16:54
replaceafillthat takes you to the cando projects gradebook (for now)16:54
replaceafillit should take you to the skills gradebook16:54
replaceafilland i created a few projects16:54
replaceafillto simulate skill sets16:54
replaceafillmade a little change for the column labels16:54
replaceafilli used the external_id to store the "local" competency id16:55
replaceafilli still think we need a label attribute in skills16:55
replaceafillor maybe that can go in the virginia customization...16:55
th1aI'm not sure what you mean.16:56
th1alabel as opposed to what?16:56
replaceafillskills don't have labels in the current data model16:56
th1aWhat do they have?16:57
replaceafilltitle, required (boolean), external_id16:57
th1aThey don't have descriptions?16:57
replaceafilli don't think they do16:57
replaceafillright yvl?16:57
th1aWhat's the difference between a title and a label?16:58
yvltitle - full description16:58
replaceafillth1a, for gradebook activities16:58
yvllabel - label in gradebook16:58
replaceafillthe 001 you see at the top16:58
th1aShort title?16:58
replaceafillshould be the label16:58
replaceafillhhmm yes16:58
yvlabbreviation ;)16:58
replaceafillthe gradebook calls it labels :)16:59
th1aDefinitely skills need descriptions.16:59
th1aLong strings.16:59
aelkneryes, we added the label a while ago to allow the user to override the abreviation16:59
th1aVA competencies don't actually have them, as far as I know.16:59
th1aBut it has to be an option.16:59
aelkner001 could be used as the label, right?17:00
aelknerwhat is that called?17:00
th1aLabel overrides abbreviation created by auto-truncating.17:00
replaceafillth1a, correct17:00
th1aYes, give them a label attribute.17:00
replaceafilland a description, right?17:00
th1aAnd the label can be assigned however the user wants.17:00
th1aAdd label and description to the data model.17:00
th1aWho is doing that?17:01
replaceafillin the current cando gradebook17:01
replaceafillrequired competencies are color coded17:01
replaceafilli need to do that, but i don't know if marking the "label" is enough17:01
replaceafilli mean, changing the color of the link17:01
replaceafilli'll do it first and then i'll ask for feedback from you17:02
replaceafillso you can "see" what i mean :)17:02
replaceafillyou can also see that with some skill sets/projects the tertiary navigation becomes several lines17:02
replaceafillso i'd like to work on that this week too17:02
replaceafillfinding a way to make it horizontally scrollable instead17:03
replaceafillmaybe putting left/right arrows in the borders17:03
replaceafillof the tertiary nav17:03
th1aAlso I'd like to get the "hover box" implemented sooner rather than later.17:03
replaceafillth1a, ah ok17:03
th1aThere is plenty you can do without getting into more of the data model.17:03
replaceafilli just had a question for yvl17:04
replaceafillah btw17:04
replaceafillthe selectors still dont work17:04
replaceafilli found that the selectors logic is doing a lot of unnecessary work17:04
replaceafilllike calculating the section, term, year every time you visit a worksheet17:04
replaceafillso i started writing a test before changing that in the gradebook17:04
replaceafill(so i don't mess it)17:05
replaceafillyv, my question :)17:05
replaceafilli saw you introduced the GenericWorksheet class17:05
replaceafillto the gradebook17:05
replaceafillat first i didn't understand where that came from in your cando branch :)17:05
replaceafillany reason for the new class? can't we just use the Worksheet class?17:06
yvlthat's why I took some days off17:06
yvlI managed to nuke that revision before ;)17:06
replaceafillto think about worksheets? :D17:06
yvlso I was left with the code that uses it, and no trace of GenericWorksheet17:06
yvlwell, worksheets (the activity worksheets)17:07
yvlhave category weights17:07
yvland averaging17:07
yvlthat does not necessarily apply in the same way to skills17:08
replaceafillah, i think i got you17:08
yvland projects17:08
replaceafillis it ok, if i continue to work on the prototype using Worksheet, and make the change later?17:08
yvlalso - linked column activities17:08
replaceafillsince the gradebook depends on it17:08
replaceafilli'd like to do those kind of changes until i have enough tests17:08
replaceafillso i'm sure i don't break anything17:09
* replaceafill checks his notes for more questions...17:09
replaceafillth1a, that's it from me17:09
th1aOK.  Good work.  Don't nuke that example, I'm going to have the VA people look at it just to reassure them that we're moving along...17:11
replaceafillth1a, kk17:11
th1aOK, aelkner?17:11
aelknerok, so i got the flat sections table import to work as we had discussed Firday17:12
aelknerthough i realized that we had left a couple things out of our discussion17:12
aelknerlike section linkage and timetables17:12
aelknerlet's get to those in a second17:12
aelknerfirst, i want you to look at the xls file i created for testing what i have17:13
aelknerhit the download file lnk at the right to get the file17:13
aelknerif you go to the FlatSectionsTable sheet, you'll see the import for the tests17:14
th1aTake a look at that replaceafill & yvl.17:14
* replaceafill too17:15
th1aSeems fine to me.17:16
aelknerso, what's missing is a column, that we could have after Section Id called link?17:17
aelknerin the current Sections... sheets, having a yes there means:17:17
aelknerlink this section to any section in previous or next term with same id17:17
aelkneri was wondering if we could reconsider that option and make it always link same ids across terms17:18
aelknerit's just and idea17:18
aelkneri mean, why have the same id in two different terms if you don't want to link?17:18
th1aI was leaning in the other direction -- making it explicit.17:18
aelknerok, explicit is fine, that's what you thought last time17:18
th1aYou never know...17:18
th1aThe only problem is then you need like three more columns17:19
th1ayear | term | id | right?17:19
aelknerno, it's not so bad17:19
aelknerjust a yes or blank for no17:19
th1aPresumably this is being generated somehow anyhow.17:19
aelknerusing the same logic as the current Sections sheets17:20
th1aI'm saying that I think it should be explicit.17:20
th1aI mean, I don't feel that strongly about it but...17:20
th1aI guess it has to be the same year.17:20
th1aSo you don't need to specify that.17:21
aelknerkeep in mind what we decided last time17:21
aelknerwe didn't specify the year17:21
aelknerbut we also didn't specify the term either17:21
th1aYou can't link to a different year.17:21
th1aaelkner: We can change our mind.17:21
aelknerbut we shouldn't just throw away what we decided before for no reason17:22
aelknerwe went through the trouble of deciding what we decided for a reason i think17:22
aelknerit gets really messy for a user to specify what to link to17:22
th1aWell, one reason to change is your example, where art_a has different ID's in different terms.17:23
aelkneralso, i don't think it is possible to link to a non-consecutive term17:23
th1aWell, we would not do that then.17:23
aelknerso that's why we said that it would not make sense to make the user specify it17:23
th1aIt is just that they may have some other system of determining ID's.17:24
th1aI'm not sure we should depend on that convention.17:24
th1aI don't think it is significantly more complicated one way or another, and I prefer explicit in general.17:24
aelknerwe could add two columns, term and id17:25
th1alinked section | linked section's term17:25
aelknerthere are two lnks17:25
aelknerprevious term, next term17:26
th1aOh, right.17:26
th1aYes, just two columns.17:26
th1aterm implied.17:26
aelknerLink previous id | Link next id17:26
th1aProbably the linking has to happen after everything is created.17:26
th1aYes, that 's pretty straightforward.  Definitely better.17:27
aelknerregarding the timing as you indicated17:27
aelknerthe current sections sheets logic doesn't have that problem17:28
aelknerbecause it links based on same id, so the id that doesn't exist yet in the next term will when it gets to that section17:29
aelknerand then the linkage to the previous solves that problem17:29
aelknerbut i guess i'll have to do the two-pass logic to do it more flexibly17:29
aelknerthat's what i'll do then17:29
th1aWell, you still know what the ID should be, so you could continue to do it the current way.17:30
th1aIf you wanted to.17:30
aelknerbut the flexibility idea does sound correct considering the export will need to produce it17:30
th1aI'd prefer to check to make sure the section actually exists before linking to it.17:30
aelkneri'll work that out with a second pass through the data17:31
aelknerit's a but trickier, but doable17:31
th1aIt's not that much trickier.  ;-)17:32
th1aAnd seems more reliable.17:32
th1aCan we issue warnings on import other than errors.17:33
aelknerwell, we've never needed to do two passes though the data in our xls imports, so it is a bit tricker17:33
th1aLike missing linked sections without bombing out of the whole import.17:33
aelknernot really17:33
aelkneri mean, we could17:33
aelknerbut that would be a big change to the whole importing logic17:33
aelknerright now, if there is an error, it rewinds the updates to the db17:34
aelknerusing the zodb checkpoint17:34
aelkneri suppose we could add warnings17:34
aelknerwhich wouldn't do the same thing, if no errors, but warnings, still keep updates17:34
aelkneri just don't know if i'd recommend that17:34
th1aIt is a bit of a toss-up with linked sections.17:35
th1aI guess for now abort if you try to link to things that don't exist.17:35
aelknerthat would free up a lot of time to complete other features17:35
aelkneri mean, a bad id is a bad id anyway17:36
aelknerwhy not have it be an error and have them fix it17:36
aelkneranyway, i guess we agree17:36
aelknerregarding timetables, we could add four columns at the end17:36
th1aThat's fine.  Although I don't see how making a list of warning strings would be that difficult.17:36
th1aWhat else?17:37
aelknerTimetable, Day, Period ID, Location ID17:37
aelknerthe first is the schema id, only specified in the first row of the section17:37
aelknerthe other three will appear in the first and subsequent rows until the days run out17:38
th1aYou may have multiple periods per day.17:38
th1a(just a reminder)17:38
aelkneri believe that s o problem, it's the day, period pair that is unique17:39
aelknerbut whatever the current sections sheet can handle, the new one should handle the same17:39
aelknerno problem is what i meant to say two lines ago17:40
aelknerso, i'll add the six columns we discussed, prev link, next link after section id and timetable, day, period, location id at the end17:41
th1aShould students be at the far right or keep them further left so they're easier to see?17:42
aelknerthe keys always need to go to the left17:42
aelknerwe could put the linkage columns at the end, after resources17:43
th1aIt is all convention anyhow.17:43
aelknerbut the keys need to go to the left to allow the user to understand the implications of their choices17:43
th1aDo what you think is best.17:44
aelknerok, i'll put all six columns at the end17:44
aelknerthey are special cases anyway17:44
aelkneranyway, that's it for me17:45
th1aOK, so what's your guess for finishing this?17:46
aelkneri'm not sure until i embark on the two-pass logic which i will do directly17:48
aelkneri still need to write the corresponding export17:48
th1aOK.  Getting it done this week would keep us on schedule.17:49
aelknerand make the changes to the course import to add the two attributes we discuees17:49
aelkneri think this week would be enough17:49
th1aOK, shoot for that.17:49
th1aThanks aelkner.17:49
menesisI worked on Philippines project17:50
menesisdoing that, I found two bugs17:50
menesiswith intervention catalog not being deleted17:51
menesisfixed that17:51
menesisanother was noticed by them testing on Lucid17:51
menesisschooltool 2.0 won't start at all17:51
menesishave to install zope.testbrowser (and I think) manually17:52
th1aThis is why we don't backport releases generally.17:52
menesisbecause of recent stesting extensions17:52
menesisno, wait, this was introduced in last release17:52
menesisfor example,17:53
menesisimport stesting17:53
menesisthat in turns needs testbrowser,, selenium, etc.17:54
menesiswhy is test setup code in
replaceafillfwiw, we already had test setup code in some packages17:55
replaceafillfor the old tests17:55
menesisI know17:55
yvlthat was a whoopsy on my part17:55
replaceafilla whoopsy i copied a lot :(17:55
yvlthose are for registering selenium ui extensions17:55
yvlwhen the package is included17:55
menesisif it was easy to solve I would have done that myself..17:56
menesisthis way test setup is called automatically17:56
yvlhow pressing is to fix that ATM?17:56
menesisthis adds several dependencies to runtime17:57
yvlI understand17:57
yvlbut when do you need it fixed, latest17:57
yvlapart from that it would be good if it was fixed yesterday ;)17:57
yvlI'll fix it tomorrow then17:58
menesisin next release17:58
menesisthis is a problem only for lucid backport at the moment17:59
th1aYeah, it needs to be fixed.17:59
menesisbut I fixed zc.table dependencies and can break your sandboxes as well :p17:59
yvlsandboxes are made to be broken :)18:00
menesisso if it is possible do it in a different way18:01
menesisother than that18:02
menesisdon't think there's anything else not about philippines, and in that project more talks than code so far18:02
menesisfrom our talks today I'll most likely end up not using journal for day attendance at all.18:03
th1aI guess that makes sense.18:04
th1aGood to know.18:05
menesisone thing that is in the requirements18:05
menesisis school logo18:05
th1aThere is not much point in hacking the journal system if you aren't really... using the journal.18:05
menesisand old feature request.18:05
th1aYeah, it would be nice if they paid for that.  ;-)18:05
th1aThat's what happens when you need something QUICK.18:06
menesisno sure where to display it18:07
menesismaybe will just put a resource and display it only on the custom entrance screen18:07
th1aRealistically you probably want the school name and logo where the schooltool name and logo are at top right.18:08
menesisyes.. but it has teal background18:09
th1aPeople are going to want to change that too.18:09
th1aIt just hasn't been a priority up to this point.18:10
menesisschooltool logo was also supposed to be on white background :)18:10
menesisit is not high priority for me18:10
th1aintelli has bigger problems to worry about in the short term.  ;-)18:11
th1aKeep in mind that a separate day attendance system is something we'd probably end up needing anyhow.18:11
th1aSo it still will probably be something we'll want in core.18:11
th1aThe hook between journal and day attendance would just be allowing the section attendance during a "homeroom" period to trigger the day attendance setting.18:12
th1aOK.  Cool.18:13
th1aAnything else?18:13
menesisgood idea18:13
menesisno, that's it18:13
th1aOK.  Thanks menesis.18:14
th1aThanks guys.18:14
aelknerare we doing invoices this week?18:14
th1aSend me your invoices.18:14
th1aI probably won't send them until next week though.18:14
th1aHave a great week.  Catch you Wednesday.18:15
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.18:15
aelknercya guys wed18:15
yvlThanks guys!  See you Wed :)18:15
replaceafillthanks everybody18:15
* replaceafill goes to get breakfast18:22
replaceafillth1a, zyt?20:35
* th1a is with Julia at the potty...20:35
replaceafilljust wanted to ask you, when do you plan to send virginia the prototype preview?20:36
replaceafillit's just that i'm setting a better demo, using the ACC data20:36
replaceafillfor courses and sections20:36
replaceafill(that last "i" was an accident btw) :)20:37
th1aWhen you are ready.20:37
th1aI'll wait.20:38
replaceafillcool, i'll ping you when i have it ready online20:38
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