IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2011-01-03

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jelkneraelkner, good morning! is there a meeting today?16:20
th1aIn 10 minutes.16:20
jelknerth1a, happy new year!16:21
jelkner2011, the year of SchoolTool!16:21
th1aThe Year of Growth.16:21
jelknerexactly, that's what i meant16:22
th1aI wasn't contradicting you.  ;-)16:22
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th1aHi yvl, menesis, replaceafill, aelkner, jelkner.16:30
aelknerhappy new year16:30
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon16:30
yvlgood morning guys!16:32
yvland a happy new year :)16:32
th1aOn my 2011 calendar I have a countdown every week to Ubuntu feature freeze.16:32
th1aWe are at F-7.16:32
th1aWe're aiming for SchoolTool feature freeze February 3.16:33
th1aSo that's one month.16:33
th1a(then meeting in Portugal the following week).16:33
th1ayvl:  Your email this morning (covering remaining timetabling tasks) was exactly what I was going to ask for.16:34
th1aSo we'll go over those tasks a little more later.16:34
menesishappy new year :)16:34
th1areplaceafill:  I assume you saw Javier's email?16:34
th1aWe also got some excellent news from Cambodia.16:35
th1aThey're hiring someone to work with us on SchoolTool requirements for two months.16:35
th1aNot a programmer but that's fine.16:35
yvlgood news!16:35
yvlplease forward16:35
th1aAs we are not advancing very well on this, we have decided to hire somebody full time to work on the Cambodian side of Schooltool for the next two months: not a programmer, but a person who will work with Douglas to complete all the requirements. We hope to have somebody within the week.16:35
yvlthat's great16:36
th1aSo that will be the priority for Douglas as it gets going.16:36
replaceafillgot it16:36
yvlit would be nice to ping Critical Links guys16:37
th1aIn the meantime, I was thinking that perhaps replaceafill could start working with menesis on integrating more stuff from the localized development into trunk.16:38
th1aThere's a lot to be done there.16:38
th1aThe exact scope of which I'm not even sure of.16:38
yvlis there any specific stuff you have in mind?16:39
th1aI'd like to have, for example, add student and teacher views.16:39
yvlah, right!16:40
th1atbh, I've lost track of what is and isn't in trunk and in local packages.16:40
replaceafillstudent/teacher views are not in trunk yet16:40
th1aWe need someone to review state of trunk and the major variants.16:41
replaceafillwould that work the same way it does in cambodia, i mean using default groups?16:41
aelkneri have my own version of those that are rather flexible16:41
th1aI don't think what aelkner has been working on is in trunk.16:41
aelknerno, it's in schooltool.niepa16:41
th1a(the other stuff)16:41
aelkneroh, the demo stuff16:42
aelkneryeah, i need to work on that this week to respond to code review16:42
aelkneralso, i need to add a drop-down for the limit keys field16:42
yvlhmm, maybe Alan and Douglas can run through their code and write down the major new features?16:43
th1areplaceafill:  The first step would be to make a list of the new features in the different branches and packages.16:43
th1aYes, I guess aelkner can do that for his own code.16:44
* yvl also lost track of them ;)16:44
th1aBut obviously that's a lot of what we did in 2010, and I don't want it to go cold.16:45
th1aAnd you guys tend to underestimate the general usefulness of a lot of this stuff.16:45
replaceafillyvl, a crazy idea of mine was that this forms (add student, add teacher, etc) should be adapters16:46
th1aaelkner:  OK, so put that on the top of your to do list.16:46
replaceafillyvl, so you could override them in pilots?16:46
yvlI'll have to check :)16:46
yvlfrom what I remember now, I'm ok with views + action viewlets16:47
replaceafillsure, the apaters idea doesnt have much sense if you take skins into account16:47
replaceafillth1a, shows feature freeze on feb 2416:48
th1aYes... seven weeks, correct?16:49
replaceafillah right!16:49
th1aSo replaceafill, you have something to start on then.16:51
th1aSo my current thinking for aelkner is that I'd like to have him do a first cut on a real report management system in time for the next release.16:53
aelknersounds good to me16:54
yvlcan you please clarify scope a bit?16:55
th1aProbably aelkner should come up here soonish so we can clarify the scope a bit.16:55
th1aBut basically, discovery.16:55
th1aA way to register reports as a developer and find them as a user.16:55
aelkneralso, i was thinking of a higher level templating cncept16:56
aelknerbut perhaps we should wait untiil we meet to get into that16:56
th1aAnd scheduling generation of complex reports.16:56
yvland it deserves a separate folder16:56
yvlth1a, scheduling?16:56
th1aOr threaded at least.16:56
th1aNot blocking the response.16:56
yvlvery tricky16:57
replaceafillreport queue?16:57
yvleven with libraries16:57
th1aI thought we laid the foundation for that at our last sprint.16:57
aelknerdon't we have a task man ager ow?16:57
yvlI don't like the stability of what we did16:57
yvlread-write conflicts in the database :/16:57
aelknerth1a, middle of next week?16:57
replaceafillwe got crashes in the database in the sprint16:57
replaceafillsorry, read-write conflicts :)16:58
th1aCan we just read from it?  ;-)16:58
replaceafilleven when we were not writing to it16:58
yvlthe library writes16:58
th1aIs this a bug or a fundamental design flaw?16:58
yvlIMHO, a design flaw in the lib16:59
yvlor to be more precise16:59
yvlit was designed for a bit different purpose16:59
th1aThat's the lovely lib we were using?16:59
yvlthere's another lib16:59
yvlI can't recall from the top of my head though16:59
th1aSo perhaps that will have to wait.17:00
yvlI checked it out few months ago, looked more solid17:00
yvlprobably good for reports, though - extra dependency!17:00
yvlas in - packaging :)17:00
th1aWe won't be adding it to this release.17:00
yvlbut next one - definitely17:00
th1aDo you know where menesis is, btw, yvl?17:00
yvl2 meters to the left :)17:01
th1aOh, he chimed in earlier.17:01
th1ahi menesis.  ;-)17:01
th1aaelkner, middle of next week would be good.17:01
th1aI should have had you book it before Christmas, but I couldn't think that far ahead.17:02
yvlplease share any specs you come up with17:02
aelknerth1a, i prefer to drive, so...17:02
th1ayvl:  We'll probably have a Skype chat.17:02
yvlok :)17:03
th1aaelkner:  Have you driven up here before?17:03
aelkneryep, it's easier for me actually17:03
th1aDo you want to come up this week?17:03
aelknerno scambling for parking, waiting for security, no worrying about making a flight17:03
aelknerthis week?  i was hoping to get my demo stuff into trunk17:04
aelkneralso, i need to get my car inspection reniewed17:04
th1aOK, but we should do it as soon as you're free.17:04
th1aSince you're driving.17:05
th1aAlso, on the subject of reports,17:05
th1aI got an email over the break from a company that is interested in using SchoolTool with several schools in South Africa and will need reports.17:06
th1aSince this is a real vendor, we should be able to get them to do some of the work.17:06
th1aSo ideally, what I'd like to see is them doing a lot of the layout themselves in RML.17:06
th1aAnd then we handle plugging in the data.17:07
aelkneri have ideas on that17:07
aelkneryeah, perhaps i can get up there later this week17:07
aelkneri'll check back with you on that17:07
th1aSo I just have to try to get them started on RML...17:07
th1aPresumably the rml library we use lets you just generate a pdf without running Zope... or perhaps we should write a little script to do so?17:08
aelkneri don't see how we can decouple zope from schooltool reports17:09
th1aI mean, if you just create an empty RML template.17:09
yvlyes, it comes with a script to do so17:09
th1aOK, cool.17:09
aelknerwhat does that mean?17:09
th1aaelkner:  This is just for the initial layout step.17:09
th1aLike doing a template for a web form that doesn't have any of the ZPT to add the data in.17:10
yvlaelkner, you can generate pdfs from command line17:10
th1aOr, for that matter, it should ignore the ZPT anyhow, which is kind of the whole point of ZPT.17:10
th1aSo they can try to get the layout of the page right themselves.17:11
th1aSo we can document that process,17:11
th1aand then aelkner will be working on a somewhat comprehensible way to add the report to a SchoolTool instance.17:12
th1aTo register it.17:12
th1aAnd the step in the middle is adding in the ZPT to actully pull the necessary data.17:12
th1aMake sense?17:12
aelknerthese are broad strokes, so i'm a bit fuzzy on what you have in mind17:13
aelknerbut i'm sure it will become clear soon17:13
yvlby the way, what would you want to specify in the layout?17:13
th1aYou want to make it look like the official forms.17:14
aelknersee i have a higher-level templating language in mind17:14
th1aSo there is also the option of overlaying a pdf as we've discussed.17:14
th1aaelkner:  I don't think we want to go there yet.17:14
th1aI should ask the SA guy if the overlay approach might work.17:14
th1aaelkner:  In due time.17:14
yvlwe could do something like17:15
yvland rml template that draws borders and logos and such17:15
aelkneri understand, first things first17:15
yvland says - <CONTENT_HERE />17:15
th1aWe will probably to that *too* eventually.17:15
aelknerthat's what i was talking about17:16
th1aI think the immediate use case is replicating a very specific form.17:16
aelknerdefining content fill nouns17:16
th1aAnd maybe we should just do that by overlaying on the pdf.17:16
aelkner<table source="persons">17:16
aelkneri don't have anything concrete17:16
yvlyes, overlaying pdf would be easiest17:17
yvlmake a one-page PDF, specify a content area17:17
th1aI'll propose that and see if it sounds right.17:17
yvland draw our generated PDF ontop of that17:17
th1aIt is probably easier.17:18
th1aOK, thanks aelkner.17:19
th1aMoving on...17:19
yvljust to make sure we're on the same page-17:19
yvlcurrenlty ZPT renders RML17:19
yvlcomplete with data17:19
yvlthen the library renders RML17:19
yvlputting in user-defined RML in17:19
yvlis basically the same task as17:20
yvlputting in user-defined HTML page in17:20
yvlto put it other way -17:20
yvlweb servers serve HTML, web browsers render it to pictures17:21
yvlwe serve RML to ourselves and render it to PDFs17:21
yvlfor some reason I wanted to say this :)17:21
yvlmoving on...17:21
th1aMoving on to yvl...17:22
yvlwell, I sent you the estimates17:22
th1aCan you get all that done by Feb. 3?17:23
th1aIt looks like it.17:23
yvlit is likely in my opinion17:23
th1aOK, that's your bonus target.17:24
yvlthe minimum is - working stuff with no bells and whistles17:24
yvlok, sounds fair17:24
th1aI'll email the details.17:24
th1aEasy enough.17:25
th1amenesis:  Perhaps you could set some Feb 3. pre-SchoolTool freeze goals for yourself and email me.17:26
th1aWe'll give you a bonus target too.17:26
menesisth1a: ok17:26
th1a(we'll work aelkner's out at our meeting, and I guess wait and see for replaceafill)17:26
menesisI was thinking about what needs to be done in the new year17:27
menesisbefore freeze and what's next17:27
menesiswill send my notes when I have this sorted17:28
th1aThanks menesis.17:28
th1aaelkner:  I haven't actually looked at David's report yet.17:29
th1aWe'll be taking a break from that for a little while regardless.17:29
aelknerapparently, the meeting was a success17:29
aelkneryeah, they need to wok out human-engineering anyway17:30
th1aDid you read it?17:30
aelkneronce, didn't memorize it17:30
th1aOK, good.17:30
aelknerlet's look at it together when we meet17:30
th1aI'll be reading it... the holiday break is just pretty busy once you have two little kids.  :-S17:31
th1ajelkner:  Anything to add?17:31
jelknernope, just lurking ;-)17:31
jelkneroh, one question17:31
jelknershould filip be attending these meetings?17:31
jelkneri asked dwelsh about that this morning17:31
th1aOh, it is not super-necessary.17:31
jelknerwe felt like he should17:32
th1aPrimarily if he has questions, but to be honest, we have enough going on as it is.17:32
jelknerbut you would know better than we would17:32
th1aIt is not really that necessary for him.17:32
yvla sidenote for developers -
th1aIt would be better to ask questions at different times anyhow.17:33
jelkneri didn't mean to ask questions17:33
replaceafillyvl, i'd like to give it another try :(17:33
jelkneri meant to get to know the ST team17:33
jelknerso that he knows who to ask when he has questions17:33
jelknerand knows who is working on what17:33
jelkneranyway, we'll figure that out in practice17:34
th1aIt would be nice but not something I'd worry about.17:34
jelknergot it17:34
th1aPrimarily to ensure he doesn't sleep all day.17:34
jelknerexactly! ;-)17:34
th1aHappy New Year gentlemen and have a great week!17:35
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:35
th1ayvl:  Looks good to me.17:35
yvlgreat week to everyone :)17:35
replaceafillthanks everybody17:35
th1aAlso, invoices.  I have to pay my taxes by the 15th!17:36
yvlreplaceafill, we'll definitely give it another go in next ST version17:37
yvlone thing to think about is where we'll store the generated mega-reports17:37
yvlit will kill the database17:37
yvlthere's some bad karma around the blobs though17:38
replaceafillyou lose the 'you can just copy the Data.fs file to another server' feature17:38
yvlthere will be some work to do with packaging, again17:39
yvlright folders, right permissions17:39
replaceafill'now you have to copy the Data.fs and the blobs (which could have a different permissions and stuff)'17:39
yvlI'm just putting that on the table17:40
* yvl remembers older programming days with nostalgia... when "just save it" meant "just save it" :)17:41
th1aDoes "blobs" mean "binary objects in the database?"17:42
th1aOr binary objects in general?17:42
yvlwe meant ZODB blob storage17:44
yvlstores large objects in the file system17:45
th1aI see.17:46
th1aWe really could just save them directly to the filesystem.17:46
th1aaelkner:  I just forwarded the SA report email to you.  The reports aren't really that weird.17:49
th1aI'm not sure if it wouldn't just be quicker for you to lay them out than to try to help them do it.17:50
yvlbut you know, when you have asynchronous file writers...17:50
th1aAnd maybe they're a good case for a higher level templating language.  ;-)17:50
aelknerth1a, we'll see18:16
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