IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2010-08-02

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th1aLet's start with a quote:  "When you go to the U.S., and you suggest something, the Americans say, 'Let's do it.'  But then it turns out later, it never happens.  But here in Europe when you suggest something, everyone says, 'Oh, we can never do that,' but then later it turns out it actually gets done."16:31
aelkneryeah, it gets done by an American :)16:32
th1aWell, aelkner isn't actually known for his optimism about new ideas either.16:32
yvloh, and good morning everybody!16:33
aelkneryeah, good morning all16:33
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon guys16:33
th1aHi everyone.16:33
yvlwhere is the quote from, by the way?16:33
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th1aWell, it is something the author has heard from a number of people in Europe, but the book is "Were You Born on the Wrong Continent" by Thomas Geoghegan.16:34
th1aIt is basically about how despite the fact that everyone has been reporting the failure of the German economic model for thirty years, it is still working pretty well.16:35
th1aAnd most people would be better off in that system than the U.S.'s.16:35
th1aSo, any comments on my messaging email last Friday?16:37
* replaceafill wonders who's schooltool biggest competitor16:38
aelknerisn't the email about a schooltool appliance more than anything about messaging16:38
th1aCentre/Focus SIS/OpenSIS.16:38
th1aOpenSIS being the strongest of the forks.16:39
th1aBut I don't think they can survive as a business.16:39
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aelknerschooltool has no forks, so that's one advantage we have16:39
th1aI do think that for a PHP SIS, forking is kind of inevitable.16:40
aelknerand that's zope's selling point16:40
yvlbut to be fair, it's possible to do same things in PHP or in any turing-complete language...16:41
th1ait is more that it is too difficult for someone to learn Zope to do a quick fork.16:41
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th1aThat is, anyone can just look at your PHP app and hack shit in wherever they want.16:41
th1aThey'd give up on SchoolTool before they figured out where to put their changes.16:41
aelknerbut once they hack, their changes are only good for them16:42
th1aThat's my point.16:42
th1aI mean, it is not an unambiguously good thing for us, but it is the situation, and it is better to understand it than not.  And there are some advantages.16:43
th1aAnyhow, it is about messaging insofar as it affects how we explain what SchoolTool *is*.16:44
yvlmain thing with our approach is that it takes literally years for the API layer to evolve16:44
th1aYes... we've never been disciplined about that.16:45
yvlafter that happens, many of the things should be learning python + learning API16:45
yvlstill, you'll never be able to hack as freely and mindlessly as with PHP16:46
th1aAny other comments before we move on?16:47
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yvlah, just don't consider my silence on appliance thing as...16:47
yvlwell, as a vote against16:47
th1aSilence == consent.  ;-)16:48
yvlI'm actually pretty interested in that; also it will do good for our code base16:48
yvland there are too many comments, most of them probably not interesting to non-developers :)16:48
yvlfor example - since the only thing ST requires is hardware + Ubuntu16:49
yvland Ubuntu runs on many things16:49
yvlpeople can have hybrid deployments16:49
yvlsome on appliances like Sheeva16:49
yvlsome on small crank-powered laptops16:50
yvl"portable ST data collection center", very marketable :)16:50
th1aSome on VM's on a real server.16:50
th1aPartly what I'm trying to work out is akin to changing "Synaptic Package Manager" in to "Ubuntu Software Center."16:51
th1aJust make a technical description into something that makes sense to people used to thinking of products.16:52
yvlI was really happy to read that16:52
th1aOK.  Now we can move on, since I've made yvl happy.16:52
th1aThis week I'm going to work on documenting interventions, which aside from being my most behind schedule task, I need to do to figure out how we can change interventions to do what David Ally wants.16:53
th1aWhich is basically to also have interventions for teachers and the school itself.16:54
th1ae.g., this school needs to raise its attendance rate to 80% by the end of the year.16:54
th1areplaceafill:  Also, before I forget, I spoke to someone from the US on IRC last week who also wanted what one of your schools wants,16:55
replaceafillah yes!16:55
th1athe ability to track multiple daily scores (in the journal).16:55
replaceafilljournal + cando16:55
th1aI don't think it is really journal + cando.16:56
replaceafillyes, multiple grades is better16:56
th1aMore just a journal enhancement.16:56
yvlhmm, make a bug and assign it to me ;)16:56
yvlI'll be touching the way Journal stores data, so...16:57
th1aI'm not sure how we'll do the UI.16:57
replaceafilljelkner asked recently how to put a tardy AND a grade for a student16:57
yvlfunny thing - from the code's point of view - this is possible :)16:57
th1aActually, come to think of it, it's pretty obvious.16:57
th1a*light bulb*16:58
th1aYou don't really need to see all the days of the month when you're doing the journal.16:58
th1aThat's really just habit from replicating paper journals.16:58
th1aThe default view can just be today, with columns for scoring multiple things.16:58
jelkneras long as the monthly attendance view is still a click away, that makes *a lot* of sense16:59
aelknerand the month view would have to go because one couldn't display it all anyore16:59
aelkneri mean, it wouldn't fit on the screen17:00
th1aThere are various ways of dealing with it.17:00
th1aWell, I could assign that to yvl.17:02
yvlthank you :)17:02
yvl(otherwise people will need to wait a few weeks after I put my code in)17:02
th1aOK, moving on to reports: yvl?17:03
yvlwell, I finished the export thingy17:04
yvlI don't remember if I sent developers the link17:04
yvlhere it is17:05
yvlplease take a look, it might be interesting17:05
yvlwhen free time permits17:05
yvl(no tests by the way - it is a hack)17:05
yvland I'm moving forward with timetables17:06
th1aIt is a good hack to have some experience with though.17:06
yvltimetabling UI will change there and there17:06
yvlI'm hoping that people won't complain :)17:07
yvlit should be a lot clearer - as well as the code17:07
yvland this week I'll still be pushing timetables17:08
yvla difficult birth, to say the least17:08
yvlstill - a lot of good experience17:08
yvlwell... that's it17:08
th1aIt will be good to have that wrapped up.17:09
yvloh yes.17:09
th1aThanks, yvl!17:09
menesislast week I have uploaded some packages to ubuntu17:10
menesisfirst, those that had bugs that were not fixed in lucid17:10
menesisbut not much. will upload much more this week17:11
menesisam a bit undecided about what to do first - just upload the packages I have, or update schooltool to work with the newer packages I want17:11
menesissince there is very little time left (before feature freeze)17:12
th1aIt seems to be that getting things in is most important.17:12
menesisI will upload zope packages that I have.17:12
menesisand upgrade them later, because that will no longer require help from others17:13
yvlIf you want, I can drop whatever I'm doing and help with updating schooltool?17:13
yvlsay, on Wed-Thu?17:13
th1aIt would help it is ok with me.17:14
menesisI was playing with the tools I have, tried to use mr.developer, but that did not play well with buildbot17:14
menesislooking for a better way to define and test the "SchoolTool KGS"17:15
yvlI see17:15
yvlif you had the KGS, I could make stuff work with it17:15
yvlat least - preliminary KGS17:15
yvlbut I don't know how hard it is to make one17:16
menesissome z3c.* packages do not work with latest ztk/bluebream, so that's more than schooltool17:16
menesisor, rather, their tests fail17:16
yvlcan you send me a list?17:16
menesisso I got a bit stuck  on this17:16
th1aWell, why don't we upload what works first.17:16
menesisyvl: later17:17
yvlI'm just offering a "helping" hand ;)17:17
menesisth1a: yes, that's the priority, to upload missing packages first17:18
th1aOK.  Sounds good to me.17:18
th1aThanks menesis!17:19
replaceafillth1a, i just sent javier my latest changes and questions17:19
th1aI saw.17:19
replaceafilli'm planning on having the demo for the gradebook this week17:19
replaceafilli haven't had response on that from them yet17:19
replaceafillbut i think i had the calculations right17:20
th1aJust keep giving them things to look at.17:20
th1aI think that's the key at this point.17:20
replaceafillalso, dwelsh seems like is ready to update the virginia servers17:20
replaceafilli checked
replaceafilli will refer him to that one17:21
replaceafillyvl, couple of questions17:21
replaceafill1. the zc.datetimewidget17:22
replaceafilldo you know of a way of updating its starting month, once it has been created?17:22
replaceafilli mean, after the form has been rendered17:22
yvlsorry, no17:23
yvlbut I can look at it tomorrow morning17:23
replaceafillah ok, i found a Calendar.setup({...}) method17:23
replaceafillbut i couldnt have the 'date' parameter to work17:23
replaceafillth1a, i was testing this for the request javier  did: once you set the level for the kid, he wants the calendar of the birthdate to set to a specific year17:24
yvl(can you point at the exact code?)17:24
replaceafillyvl, maybe changing to another widget could fix it17:24
replaceafilland it works, at least for some parameters17:25
replaceafillyou can change the input mask, etc17:25
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replaceafillyvl, also 2. unicode in doctests17:26
replaceafilli have the courses in khmer now17:26
replaceafillby default17:26
replaceafillbut the tests break obviously17:26
replaceafillso, i was thinking, is there a way to test non-ascii in doctests?17:27
replaceafilli remember asking you this sometime ago, but i remember it didnt work17:27
replaceafillthe other option is to set the default data to be an adapter17:27
replaceafilland user a stub for tests :)17:27
yvlyou can start the doctest comment with r17:27
replaceafillthe stub being in english17:28
yvl   >>> python code17:28
yvl   result17:28
replaceafilleven in a doctestfile?17:28
replaceafillsince there you don't have the quotes17:28
yvloh, the .txt17:28
yvlok, I'll look at how that's done17:29
replaceafillth1a, finally17:29
replaceafilli installed zambia for aelkner17:29
aelkneryeah, thanks replaceafill17:29
replaceafilland i wanted to ask you about jelkner17:29
replaceafillhe needs some xmlrpc for his app17:30
replaceafillto connect his app with the gradebook17:30
th1aI want you to focus on Cambodia for the moment.17:30
replaceafillgot it17:30
th1aTell him to nag me.17:31
replaceafillwill do17:31
th1aWe'll get to it, just not now.17:31
replaceafillyvl i also have a question about levels, but it's not urgent17:31
replaceafillso i'll leave it for later :)17:31
replaceafillth1a, that's it17:31
th1aKeep aelkner in on levels discussions.17:32
yvlreplaceafill, can you email me those 3 questions17:32
th1athanks replaceafill!17:32
yvl(even the one that's not urgent ;) )17:32
replaceafillyvl, will do RIGHT NOW17:32
replaceafillor i forget :P17:32
yvlthank you!17:32
aelknerok, three things to report/discuss17:33
aelknerfirst, i created schooltool.niepa in my directory17:33
aelknermenesis, how soon could you create a schooltool-niepa package?17:33
th1aAfter he's got all his packages uploaded to Ubuntu.  ;-)17:34
aelknerbecause that's the way i will deliver changes to David Ally17:34
menesisI would copy the zambia package and search/replace.17:34
th1aaelkner:  You can just use a sandbox on our server.17:34
menesisso that's not a lot17:34
aelknermenesis, i did that already17:34
aelknerit just needs a trunk version and a package17:35
th1aI don't think David really wants to manage a server himself right now anyhow.17:35
aelkneralso, my search replace might not have included everything needed for final package creation17:35
menesisanyway, I can do a .deb quickly if the source is ready17:35
aelknerit's under my directory17:36
th1aaelkner:  In this case you don't need to involve menesis in pushing changes.17:36
aelknerth1a, i see17:36
aelkneri just need access to that server and sudo rights17:37
aelknerreplaceafill, can you set up an account for me and email signin details?17:37
th1aYou shouldn't even need root to do a sandbox, right?17:38
replaceafillaelkner, you need to install things?17:38
replaceafilllike ubuntu packages?17:39
aelknerif i create a sandbox in my home directory, it will download the eggs17:39
aelknerduring make, right?17:39
aelkneralthough, make ubuntu-environment17:40
aelknerneeds to be run on that machine, i guess17:40
aelknersudo  make ubuntu-environment, that it17:40
aelknerthat is17:40
replaceafillaelkner, i already ran ubuntu-environment17:40
aelkneri just need the account and server address17:41
aelkneranyway, the second thing is that i found a bug in the XLS importer17:41
yvlwhich one17:42
aelknerunfortunately, i have it setting the person's birth date to an empty string if they enter nothing17:42
aelknerwhere it should be set to None17:42
aelknerthat causes the person view to crash in the birth date widget17:43
aelknerunfortunately, empty strings have no strftime() method (:17:43
aelknersorry about that th1a17:44
aelkneri think i need to write an evolution script to change empty strings to None17:44
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yvlthat should be one-line fix, right?17:44
yvlcan we scrap the deployed data?17:44
aelknerand fix the importer to allow for optional dates17:45
aelknersomething that wasn't needed with school years and terms17:45
aelkneryvl, what do you mean scrap deployed data?17:45
yvlhow many actual databases do we have affected by this?17:45
yvl(if this is an ancient bug, and it's deployed with 1.4 we need evolution)17:46
aelkneras far as i know, Jen is the only customer using the XLS importer17:46
th1aI wouldn't assume nobody is using the XLS importer.17:46
th1aWe're kind of past making those kind of assumptions.17:47
aelknerbut in theory, we could have any number of customers that we don't about17:47
aelknerso i would need to write the evolution script for person birth dates17:47
yvlok then, evolution it is17:47
yvlby the way - this is a good example were our importer design is extremely crappy17:47
aelkneri can submit that change together with the change to no longer create the bad birth dates17:48
menesisaelkner: I have fixed this bug in the importer17:48
yvlwe do a separate validation logic there and a separate validation logic in web forms17:48
aelknermenesis, you did?17:48
yvlthat's a straight way to corrupted data17:48
th1aDon't be too hard on the designer -- the manager didn't give him much time.17:48
yvldon't get me wrong17:48
menesiswell I changed importer to get birth date as Date, not Text17:48
menesisas it was before17:49
yvlIt's good to have at least this17:49
menesisthen I re-imported the xls and all worked again17:49
aelknermenesis, but we still need to evolve17:49
aelknerfor instance, Jen has already imported and I don't know if she was using your fix17:50
aelknermenesis, is that fix in the latest egg?17:50
th1aIf it is a simple evolution, we should add it anyhow.17:51
menesisschooltool-1.0.6 and schooltool- don't have this problem17:51
yvloh, so the bug is not "live"17:52
yvlthen scrap evolution17:52
yvlsimple script is enough17:52
aelkneri don't see the fix in the schooltool-1.5 egg17:52
menesisit was broken between july 15 and july 22 in lucid packages17:52
menesisif people were still using hardy then they are ok17:53
menesisI have not made a new development release. but the latest dev egg is ok.17:53
aelknerit sounds like the evolution script is the safest way to go17:54
aelknerit can simply check for empty string and replace with None17:54
yvlI suggest to practice the db repair scripts :)17:54
yvlthe experience will be useful17:54
menesisso someone has broken Person views after they imported?17:55
menesisor not17:55
yvlremember the email with "new helper script"?17:55
aelknerisn't that technology for fixing a given instance, not all instances in the field17:55
yvlseriously - the bug persisted for 7 days17:55
yvlthe importer bug17:56
th1aOh... it wasn't there from the beginning?17:56
aelknerit was always there17:56
aelknerok, maybe not, maybe it required a date before17:57
aelkneri don't remember off hand17:57
menesisit was getDate, your importer_fixes branch changed it to getText17:57
menesisI changed back17:57
menesisand released all branches with this fixed17:58
aelknerso i just need to do a bin/buildout -n in my sandbox and reimport?17:59
aelknerok, will do, perhaps Jen never ran into this17:59
aelknermaybe she missed the 7 day window of vulnerability18:00
aelkneri'm ok with holding off on the evolution script until we get a bug report18:00
aelknerit may never come, so we'd be in the clear18:00
replaceafillaelkner, just sent you the login data18:00
aelknerreplaceafill, thanks18:00
th1areplaceafill, How's the timetable report coming?18:01
aelknerthe third thing to report is that i wrote the teachers timetable view18:01
replaceafillth1a, ?18:01
aelknerbut i have a couple of issues with it that perhaps are best discussed on the phone after the meeting?18:01
th1aI mean, aelkner.18:01
th1aaelkner, OK.18:02
th1aCan you send me a screenshot?18:02
th1aAll right then.  Thanks gentlemen!18:02
yvlplease CC me18:02
th1aHave a great week!18:02
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.18:02
yvland a link to the code, if possible18:02
yvlhappy coding guys :)18:02
replaceafillyvl, just sent you my 3 questions :)18:02
yvl(and happy managing th1a ;) )18:02
yvlgot them18:02
replaceafillthanks guys18:02
yvlwill reply first thing tomorrow18:02
yvlgotta run ;)18:03
replaceafillthanks yvl18:03
aelknergreat week everyone18:03
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