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| th1a | hi replaceafill, yvl, menesis, aelkner, jelkner. | 16:30 |
|---|---|---|
| aelkner | hello | 16:31 |
| replaceafill | good morning/afternoon | 16:31 |
| yvl | good morning guys :) | 16:32 |
| th1a | Last week was a good one for me, motivation-wise. | 16:33 |
| th1a | Going down to Virginia to pick up our award from the commonwealth -- I'll be posting announcements about that today. | 16:34 |
| th1a | And finding that SchoolTool more or less works on the TonidoPlug is very exciting. | 16:35 |
| * yvl agrees - that definitely was very exciting | 16:35 | |
| th1a | I'm looking at SchoolTool on ARM as an early 2011 initiative. | 16:35 |
| th1a | Like, having the software ready and a hardware strategy at that point. | 16:36 |
| th1a | This would be the sweet spot, hardware-wise, I think: | 16:36 |
| th1a | http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-guruplugdetails.aspx | 16:36 |
| * jelkner is doing grades, will only be lurking this morning | 16:36 | |
| th1a | Except right now they apparently totally overheat. | 16:36 |
| th1a | But an external SATA connector would be nice. | 16:37 |
| th1a | And two USB's. | 16:37 |
| th1a | replaceafill: I'm thinking we might try out a plug server at one of your schools in the fall, at least part-time. | 16:38 |
| replaceafill | that would be great | 16:39 |
| replaceafill | there's one currently without internet connection | 16:39 |
| replaceafill | it would work great there | 16:39 |
| th1a | OK. We don't necessarily want to do that from the beginning, so there is no rush. | 16:40 |
| replaceafill | :) | 16:40 |
| th1a | We can always copy the database over. | 16:40 |
| replaceafill | yes | 16:40 |
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| th1a | As far as building packages goes, in addition to cross-compiling, qemu supports an ARM simulator, so that is probably even easier than getting the cross-compiler toolchain set up. | 16:42 |
| th1a | Either way, it shouldn't be too horrible. | 16:43 |
| * th1a guesses. | 16:43 | |
| yvl | well, it's actually up to menesis :) | 16:44 |
| th1a | I just forwarded to the dev list an email Javier sent this weekend. | 16:44 |
| yvl | but I guess it shouldn't be too difficult | 16:45 |
| th1a | Summing up priorities -- nothing new but it was good timing to make sure we're all on the same page. | 16:45 |
| th1a | yvl: I don't think so. The biggest hassle is that we may be stuck supporting 9.04 for new releases indefinitely. | 16:46 |
| th1a | (for ARM) | 16:46 |
| th1a | Also, PPA support for ARM is "planned." | 16:46 |
| yvl | yes, thats one | 16:46 |
| th1a | I'd think it is a pretty high priority, as ARM looks pretty crucial to Canonical's future. | 16:47 |
| yvl | secondly - Ubuntu ARM support is kind of a very hot topic nowaday | 16:47 |
| yvl | s | 16:47 |
| th1a | Yes... and not just for geek points... $$$. | 16:47 |
| yvl | precisely :) | 16:47 |
| th1a | So, replaceafill, do you feel like you're getting a good handle on Cambodia's needs now? | 16:48 |
| replaceafill | i think so, i understand their grading logic now | 16:49 |
| replaceafill | th1a, did you see the spreadsheet i created? | 16:49 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:49 |
| replaceafill | my big question is how are we going to model that? UI-wise | 16:50 |
| replaceafill | i mean, i think those are going to be reports, right? | 16:50 |
| replaceafill | all those average | 16:50 |
| replaceafill | i was thinking the gradebook will stay kind of the way it is now, a monthly grade and a semester grade and that's it | 16:51 |
| th1a | I'm not sure what the problem is. | 16:52 |
| th1a | I mean, that spreadsheet seems like a good model, UI-wise. | 16:53 |
| replaceafill | are we going to insert all those monthly averages in the gradebook? | 16:53 |
| replaceafill | for instance, the monthly average for a student only makes sense when you take into account all the student's sections | 16:54 |
| th1a | Computers are good at math. | 16:54 |
| replaceafill | the gradebook is section by section | 16:54 |
| th1a | Yes, but that just makes it simpler. | 16:54 |
| th1a | Hm... | 16:54 |
| replaceafill | well, maybe it's not a big deal, i just don't see it yet :( | 16:55 |
| th1a | The overall averages would go in a separate report. | 16:55 |
| replaceafill | yes | 16:55 |
| replaceafill | btw, others can see this spreadsheet i'm talking about https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ate78VyWm8bndGw2eGRpVlBUcmlyUDNSZUcweFY3S1E | 16:56 |
| th1a | What's the next step? | 16:57 |
| replaceafill | th1a, about javier's lastest email i think the class/group assignment is the next step | 16:57 |
| replaceafill | dont you think? | 16:57 |
| replaceafill | the filtering in the views is not difficult either: display only teachers when assigning an instructor, etc | 16:58 |
| th1a | Well, that probably makes sense in terms of meeting their expectations -- they're kind of looking at it from starting at the beginning. | 16:59 |
| th1a | So if we work on things in that order it will make more sense to them and feel like we're getting somewhere. | 16:59 |
| replaceafill | yes | 17:00 |
| th1a | OK, why don't you focus on that, then. | 17:00 |
| th1a | It should be pretty straightforward. | 17:00 |
| replaceafill | cool, i will | 17:00 |
| replaceafill | yes | 17:00 |
| replaceafill | i hope so :) | 17:00 |
| replaceafill | just one question for yvl :) | 17:00 |
| th1a | I'd think we should have it done this week pretty comfortably. | 17:00 |
| replaceafill | as usual ;) | 17:00 |
| yvl | go ahead, replaceafill | 17:00 |
| replaceafill | yvl, for the group assignment i was thinking we will need two dropdowns in the UI - one for the level and one for the group (2A) | 17:01 |
| replaceafill | because i think they want to be able to assign the level even if they dont know the group yet | 17:01 |
| replaceafill | but we store the level and the group in one single relationship, correct? | 17:02 |
| replaceafill | i mean you assing the student to the group 2A for instance | 17:02 |
| replaceafill | my doubt is, how can we store only the level | 17:03 |
| yvl | hmm, your'e right | 17:03 |
| th1a | We can't do that now? | 17:04 |
| yvl | no, the student is at level X | 17:04 |
| yvl | when he is a member of a group that is at level X in that year | 17:04 |
| th1a | We probably need some simple kind of inheritance. | 17:05 |
| * th1a ducks. | 17:05 | |
| yvl | :D | 17:05 |
| replaceafill | :)) | 17:05 |
| aelkner | oh no :) | 17:05 |
| yvl | well, there are so many ways to do that... | 17:06 |
| th1a | Yes... | 17:06 |
| yvl | one of them - assign the level to a student somehow | 17:06 |
| yvl | with a relationship for example | 17:06 |
| replaceafill | annotations? | 17:06 |
| replaceafill | ah | 17:06 |
| yvl | or annotations | 17:07 |
| replaceafill | i'll do whatever you think is better :) | 17:07 |
| aelkner | relationships ARE annotations, so... | 17:07 |
| * yvl looks at the sky for a moment... | 17:08 | |
| replaceafill | :D | 17:08 |
| th1a | We may really just need to change level assignment to individuals. | 17:08 |
| th1a | Directly. | 17:08 |
| aelkner | wasn't that the original intent? | 17:09 |
| aelkner | levels are for what grade a student is in, ight? | 17:09 |
| yvl | hmm, groups having levels is useful | 17:09 |
| th1a | This is the classic case where the differences between American and Lithuanian schools confuse us. | 17:10 |
| yvl | sections are generated for all groups at the level X courses at the level | 17:10 |
| th1a | This is the original confusion from six years ago. | 17:10 |
| replaceafill | :( | 17:10 |
| aelkner | i can see why having a group belong to a level is useful for section generation | 17:10 |
| aelkner | but that shouldn't conflict with students having levels | 17:10 |
| yvl | yes, aelkner | 17:11 |
| aelkner | group levels could just be an additional feature | 17:11 |
| th1a | It is a fundamental conceptual difference in our school systems. | 17:11 |
| yvl | yes, th1a | 17:11 |
| yvl | :) | 17:11 |
| aelkner | th1a, please explain | 17:11 |
| yvl | replaceafill, I guess it would be easier to define a relationship between a level and a student | 17:12 |
| th1a | We just think of "11th grade" as being an attribute of a student. | 17:12 |
| yvl | and make sure that a student can be in only one level in a schoolyear | 17:12 |
| th1a | Lithuanians think of it as an attribute of a group the student is a member of. | 17:12 |
| replaceafill | yvl, got it | 17:12 |
| th1a | Different models. | 17:12 |
| aelkner | but schooltool groups are a general concept | 17:12 |
| aelkner | track, or any club | 17:13 |
| aelkner | does not care what grade level a student is in | 17:13 |
| replaceafill | menesis, i need to make a small change to one cando report, should i do it in trunk or in your branch? | 17:13 |
| yvl | Cambodian implementation allows to link (when creating) a group with a level | 17:13 |
| yvl | and link courses to a level | 17:13 |
| th1a | I'm not talking about SchoolTool per se -- but how people conceptualize a student's grade level. | 17:14 |
| aelkner | so that's why i suggest that having groups optionally have a level would be a benign additional feature | 17:14 |
| aelkner | but the student level is important by itself | 17:14 |
| th1a | OK, can we untangle this thread? | 17:16 |
| th1a | replaceafill? | 17:16 |
| replaceafill | i'll go with a relationship as yvl suggested | 17:17 |
| replaceafill | level - student | 17:17 |
| aelkner | wait, i thought yvl was working on a branch regarding levels | 17:17 |
| th1a | What are groups' role then? | 17:17 |
| th1a | I believe we merged yvl's branch? | 17:18 |
| yvl | yes, it's merged | 17:18 |
| yvl | it's just some basic code | 17:18 |
| replaceafill | yvl, to me the relationship is just a temporary storage, in case they dont know the group yet | 17:18 |
| yvl | every group of students, say 2A (second level group) has to attend all courses of level 2 together | 17:19 |
| replaceafill | yvl, btw there's some cambodia wording in trunk :) | 17:19 |
| replaceafill | the relationship namespaces | 17:19 |
| yvl | so there must be automation to create sections, and enroll all students of the group | 17:19 |
| yvl | whoops | 17:19 |
| yvl | sorry, will fix that | 17:19 |
| yvl | copy-paste, grumble grumble | 17:19 |
| replaceafill | :D | 17:20 |
| th1a | Well... hm. | 17:20 |
| th1a | So maybe I need to understand this better. | 17:20 |
| replaceafill | yvl, cambodia uses trunk's levels now | 17:20 |
| yvl | great, replaceafill | 17:20 |
| th1a | So lets say we have a cohort of students who enters 9th grade in 2010 and expects to graduate in 2015. | 17:21 |
| th1a | That is a group. | 17:21 |
| th1a | A class? | 17:21 |
| th1a | That is associated with a level. | 17:21 |
| th1a | 9th grade for starters. | 17:21 |
| yvl | well, they will be just associated with a level | 17:21 |
| yvl | no group, no sections | 17:21 |
| aelkner | individually, right? | 17:21 |
| replaceafill | 9th grade -> level | 17:21 |
| replaceafill | 9th grade, section A -> group | 17:22 |
| yvl | yes, replaceafill | 17:22 |
| th1a | That is how it will work in the new system. | 17:22 |
| th1a | ? | 17:22 |
| yvl | yes | 17:22 |
| th1a | BUt not how it works currently. | 17:22 |
| replaceafill | we're just adding the first part | 17:22 |
| yvl | the second part is done | 17:22 |
| th1a | Then how do I promote students at the end of the year? | 17:23 |
| yvl | currently - assign them to a new group next year | 17:23 |
| yvl | if they are in group titled "2B" for example | 17:23 |
| yvl | next year assign them to group "3B" | 17:24 |
| replaceafill | assign them to a group in the next year in the appropriate level :S | 17:24 |
| yvl | yes, that is how it works now | 17:24 |
| aelkner | but i thought we were going to support a student having a level regardless of group membership? | 17:24 |
| yvl | well, that is how it *will* work in the near future probably? :) | 17:25 |
| replaceafill | that's what we're adding! | 17:25 |
| yvl | and keep in mind, that we are talking about *Cambodia* now | 17:25 |
| yvl | not generic SchoolTool! | 17:25 |
| aelkner | i think th1a is asking about generic schooltool | 17:26 |
| yvl | th1a? | 17:26 |
| th1a | This is not some weird edge case. | 17:26 |
| th1a | I'm thinking about core SchoolTool. | 17:26 |
| replaceafill | :| | 17:26 |
| yvl | oh | 17:27 |
| th1a | I'm not talking about doing anything strange. | 17:27 |
| yvl | hmm | 17:27 |
| replaceafill | i vote for doing it in cambodia | 17:27 |
| * yvl too | 17:27 | |
| replaceafill | and then see if it works and move it to core | 17:27 |
| replaceafill | as it was done with levesl ;) | 17:27 |
| yvl | yes, please | 17:28 |
| th1a | Well... I'm getting a bad feeling about this. | 17:28 |
| replaceafill | :( | 17:28 |
| th1a | The thing is this is going off the rails for exactly the same reason things went off the rails six years ago. | 17:29 |
| th1a | Which is that those of us in the US cannot IMAGINE that those of you elsewhere would be doing things differently. | 17:29 |
| th1a | So six months later it is like "Wait, you did WHAT?" | 17:29 |
| yvl | that's why I want it done in a "controlled environment" | 17:30 |
| yvl | then have a "different version" designed by those in USA | 17:30 |
| th1a | Except that it just means we have to start over from scratch in six months. | 17:30 |
| th1a | No no no no no. | 17:30 |
| th1a | Look -- these are not actually different problems. | 17:30 |
| th1a | AT ALL. | 17:30 |
| th1a | It is a simple problem, that gets screwed up because we're using different mental models. | 17:31 |
| yvl | well, I think you're right | 17:32 |
| yvl | but | 17:32 |
| yvl | hmm, how to put this | 17:32 |
| th1a | The manager needs to manage this? | 17:33 |
| yvl | Cambodian case is a stripped down, stricter version of SchoolTool, right? | 17:33 |
| yvl | even their person views - different, simpler | 17:33 |
| yvl | one contact, etc, | 17:33 |
| yvl | the way I see it it's the same with automatic section enrollment | 17:34 |
| th1a | The thing is that despite the fact that we've put levels off forever, they are absolutely fundamental, so we don't want multiple versions. | 17:34 |
| yvl | they will not be multiple versions per se | 17:35 |
| th1a | I think levels need to be directly connected to persons with convenience methods related to groups. | 17:35 |
| yvl | more like - stripped down version of things in core ST | 17:35 |
| th1a | We don't want incompatible data models. | 17:36 |
| yvl | it won't be so much of a problem | 17:37 |
| aelkner | brb | 17:37 |
| yvl | th1a, I want it that way because of ZODB | 17:37 |
| yvl | because it's more convenient to convert data Cambodian -> SchoolTool | 17:38 |
| yvl | than SchoolTool v1 -> SchoolTool v2 | 17:38 |
| yvl | in orders of magnitude | 17:38 |
| yvl | and we're doing this with relaitonships because it will be easier to do the conversion if need arises, in my opinion | 17:39 |
| yvl | but I think once they are done in Cambodia, I'll start pulling bits to trunk | 17:40 |
| yvl | we kind of have a lot of "movement space" before the Cambodian pilot is deployed | 17:40 |
| aelkner | i'm back | 17:41 |
| yvl | what I'd like to see in the result | 17:41 |
| yvl | is a version that works for Cambodia | 17:41 |
| th1a | This ought not to be so complicated to require more multiple versions. | 17:41 |
| yvl | and is at the most part compatible with ST at data model level | 17:42 |
| yvl | I kind of don't care about UI and UI logic, it's skinning anyway | 17:42 |
| yvl | the difference between linking student to a level with relationship in Cambodia | 17:43 |
| yvl | and linking student to a level with relationship in ST | 17:43 |
| yvl | is that one will have (custom, as they required) UI | 17:43 |
| yvl | and ST does not at the moment | 17:43 |
| yvl | we are doing custom UI for them anyway - this is a requirement | 17:43 |
| th1a | I'm not thinking about UI at this point either. | 17:43 |
| yvl | there's not much apart from UI | 17:45 |
| th1a | replaceafill: What do you think? | 17:45 |
| yvl | and specific subsribers | 17:45 |
| replaceafill | th1a, again, i saw it like what happened with levels, we implemented them in cambodia, we saw they worked right, they were a good idea and then we moved them to core | 17:46 |
| replaceafill | if the level - student relationship doesnt work, we'll have proof that they dont | 17:47 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:47 |
| th1a | Let's move on. | 17:48 |
| th1a | yvl: How is timetabling coming? | 17:48 |
| yvl | well... | 17:49 |
| yvl | I will have timetables applied to a part of the term sometime this week | 17:50 |
| yvl | UI is a little bit redone | 17:50 |
| yvl | clearer, in my opinion | 17:50 |
| yvl | I'm terribly unhappy with the implementation, though | 17:50 |
| yvl | I had to scrap several prototypes | 17:51 |
| yvl | so I'm at the point where I have a data model design on paper | 17:51 |
| yvl | which is timetabling done right, in my opinion | 17:52 |
| yvl | but it requires timetable rewrite | 17:52 |
| yvl | almost from scratch | 17:52 |
| aelkner | ?! | 17:52 |
| yvl | well, reusing some parts of the code | 17:52 |
| yvl | so, I won't be doing the rewrite now | 17:53 |
| aelkner | are you changing the way timetable schemas are defined, models, etc.? | 17:53 |
| yvl | there are... just too many design and other mistakes there to refactor step-by-step | 17:53 |
| yvl | no, I will not be doing that now | 17:54 |
| yvl | but basically, no data structure would be left untouched | 17:54 |
| yvl | the resulting code should be smaller | 17:54 |
| yvl | and do the same it does now | 17:54 |
| yvl | + more flexible | 17:55 |
| yvl | in my opinion, I screwed up | 17:55 |
| yvl | instead of pulling off the rewrite I'll have to leave the code as it is, at least this week | 17:56 |
| yvl | to sum up | 17:56 |
| yvl | we will have timetables that can be applied for the part of the term | 17:57 |
| yvl | and lyceum.journal updated to handle all section events | 17:57 |
| yvl | (that means flexible scheduling, basically) | 17:57 |
| yvl | well, that's for timetabling | 17:58 |
| yvl | I played around with optimizations last week also | 17:58 |
| yvl | especially after the awesome teaser by th1a (Saturday was a workday in LT) | 17:59 |
| th1a | I got the sticker paper working in my printer. ;-) | 17:59 |
| yvl | :) | 18:00 |
| * replaceafill was wondering about the sticker :) | 18:00 | |
| yvl | well, simply cataloging the relationships did not make much improvement on ST speed | 18:00 |
| yvl | but I think we can speed up those views | 18:01 |
| yvl | they just have some logic that loads the objects anyway | 18:02 |
| yvl | and it can be replaced by catalogs + BTree operations | 18:02 |
| yvl | that are supposed to be really really fast :) | 18:02 |
| th1a | It seemed to me that there were a number of possibilities. | 18:02 |
| th1a | replaceafill: Btw, does El Salvador use the same electrical outlets as the US? | 18:03 |
| th1a | Anything else, yvl? | 18:03 |
| yvl | no, th1a :( | 18:04 |
| replaceafill | th1a, yes | 18:04 |
| th1a | aelkner: I'll send an email to Mrs. Taiwo this afternoon. | 18:04 |
| aelkner | ok | 18:05 |
| aelkner | do we need to talk on the phone after the meeting? | 18:05 |
| th1a | I don't think so. We saw each other on Thursday. | 18:06 |
| th1a | Do you know what you're doing? | 18:06 |
| th1a | Get reports from Jen. | 18:06 |
| aelkner | right | 18:06 |
| *** th1a has left #schooltool | 18:07 | |
| aelkner | i submitted a branch to fix the gradebook bug we discussed | 18:07 |
| *** th1a has joined #schooltool | 18:07 | |
| aelkner | and it was megerd immediately, was that you yvl? | 18:07 |
| menesis | me | 18:08 |
| aelkner | anyway, th1a, you said you would push for that code getting released? | 18:08 |
| aelkner | menesis, thanks | 18:08 |
| th1a | I would like to have the fix for 591872 released if possible. | 18:08 |
| th1a | Since a lot of people seem to be running into it. | 18:08 |
| th1a | OK... sorry for the long meeting. | 18:10 |
| *** th1a has left #schooltool | 18:10 | |
| *** th1a has joined #schooltool | 18:10 | |
| th1a | Also, I keep accidentally quitting the channel. | 18:10 |
| aelkner | :) | 18:11 |
| th1a | That must be me subconsciously wanting to end this. | 18:11 |
| menesis | th1a: ok, will release. no other changes for gradebook? | 18:11 |
| th1a | menesis: Not that I can think of. | 18:11 |
| th1a | Thanks menesis. | 18:11 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 18:11 | |
| th1a | Have a great week gentlemen! | 18:11 |
| aelkner | thanks, you, too | 18:12 |
| replaceafill | thanks everybody | 18:12 |
| replaceafill | menesis, did you see my question above? | 18:12 |
| replaceafill | should i work on cando's trunk or your branch? | 18:12 |
| menesis | replaceafill: yes. do everything in cando trunk | 18:12 |
| replaceafill | ok | 18:12 |
| replaceafill | thanks | 18:12 |
| yvl | on the lighter post-meeting note | 18:15 |
| yvl | using catalogs as relationship optimization was really fun | 18:15 |
| * jelkner would like to ask a few post meeting questions | 18:15 | |
| jelkner | now that his grades are done | 18:16 |
| replaceafill | catalogs as relationship optmizations?!?!? | 18:16 |
| replaceafill | you put the relationship attribute in the catalog? | 18:16 |
| jelkner | what would it cost to support a pilot at ACC using ST gradebook (3 teachers) | 18:16 |
| jelkner | and ST Intervention system (6 teachers) | 18:16 |
| th1a | Cost for what? | 18:16 |
| jelkner | ? | 18:16 |
| jelkner | support | 18:16 |
| jelkner | for example, i just filed a bug | 18:16 |
| th1a | The licensing is expensive. ;-) | 18:16 |
| jelkner | yeah, yeah, i know that | 18:17 |
| replaceafill | :))) | 18:17 |
| yvl | replaceafill, I'll chat about it some other day I guess ;) Users first! ;) | 18:17 |
| jelkner | but i've been using ST gradebook for a year | 18:17 |
| th1a | Well, the first factor is you need to use more terms if that's an issue. | 18:17 |
| jelkner | and i know that if we have other teachers use it, improvements will be needed | 18:17 |
| aelkner | yvl :) | 18:17 |
| jelkner | yes, indeed | 18:17 |
| jelkner | so, i'm willing to do whatever you tell me | 18:18 |
| jelkner | mr th1a | 18:18 |
| jelkner | so that it works | 18:18 |
| th1a | The second thing is I don't particularly want to implement it the way you'd want to -- we really need to establish enrollment statuses in sections. That might take a week or so. | 18:18 |
| th1a | Two maybe. | 18:19 |
| jelkner | what do you mean the way "i'd want to" | 18:19 |
| jelkner | i have no implementation preferences | 18:19 |
| jelkner | not my job | 18:19 |
| jelkner | i'm just a customer | 18:19 |
| jelkner | i only care about ui and workflow | 18:19 |
| jelkner | what goes on in the back end is for developers to decide | 18:19 |
| th1a | Well, if you're a paying customer you'd probably want the 2 day solution rather than the 2 week one. | 18:19 |
| jelkner | ah | 18:19 |
| jelkner | well, i need to fight for some budget | 18:20 |
| th1a | i.e. the kludge. | 18:20 |
| jelkner | economic times are tough | 18:20 |
| th1a | We'll probably need that anyway soonish. | 18:20 |
| th1a | Schools in Zambia and Nigeria don't exactly have stable student bodies either. | 18:21 |
| jelkner | cool | 18:21 |
| jelkner | ok, i have to go for a bit | 18:21 |
| jelkner | i'll call you later th1a to follow up | 18:21 |
| jelkner | i need to submit a budget request and outline what it is for | 18:22 |
| jelkner | i could use your help with that | 18:22 |
| jelkner | that's all for now | 18:22 |
| th1a | OK. | 18:22 |
| th1a | It will take about six weeks. | 18:22 |
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| aelkner | th1a :) | 18:24 |
| th1a | This looks like a good option: http://www.newit.co.uk/shop/proddetail.php?prod=eSataSheevaPlug | 18:51 |
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