IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2010-03-22

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th1ahi yvl, aelkner, replaceafill, menesis.15:33
yvlmorning th1a15:33
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon15:33
aelkneri have a lot to discuss this morning15:35
th1aBe my guest, aelkner.15:35
yvlaelkner, just so you know - your branch is merged to trunk and the new interventions egg is released15:35
* th1a is in a grumpy haze this morning.15:35
aelkneryvl: no way!15:35
th1aEven moreso than usua.15:36
* aelkner will try not to say anything to upset th1a15:36
aelkneri was in a not so grumpy haze last week )15:36
aelknersome kind of bug plagued me, and I couldn't concentrate15:37
aelknerbut by this weekend i was able to pull out and get some things done15:37
aelknernamely, i knocked out a couple of bugs in the intervention system15:37
aelkneralso, i had a very fruitful discussion with jelkner15:37
aelknerafter he saw the new dashboard with student search feature, e had some valid complaints15:38
aelknerand it led me to realize that i could put just the student filter at the top15:38
aelknerbut not have the defualt behavior be to list students below the filter15:39
aelknerif the user fills in the student filter (or even not filling anything in) and hits Find Now15:40
aelknerit takes them to another view with the filter applied15:40
aelknerthen they can click on a student15:40
aelknerso no wasted clicks15:40
th1aThey just get a form with the search results.15:40
aelknerwith the ability to change the search and re-find15:41
yvlbasically - half of the page dissapers :)15:41
yvlthe "Inbox part"15:41
yvl...and to get it to appear again, you need to click top Interventions tab15:42
th1aThat's fine.15:42
th1aWell, there might be an action to get you back there.15:42
th1aBut the basic concept is fine.15:42
aelknerjelkner correctly complained that as it was, the Inbox was not visable without scrolling15:42
aelknerbut now it is15:42
aelknerand the abiltity to search for a student with one action remains15:43
th1aSounds good.15:43
yvlwell, I like the way the view works now15:44
yvlif you could also add "Back to Inbox" button somewhere15:44
yvl(not action link in the top of the page, but actual form button)15:44
aelknerth1a: i could add a button above the student table15:45
aelknerbut seeing that we already have the Intervention tab15:45
aelkneri figured maybe it wouldn't be necessary15:45
yvlIt's bad UI design to take away things from people and have them figure out go to get them back15:46
aelknerthe idea being that the user will hit the Intervention tab as a knee-jerk reaction15:46
yvlbut I'm just complaining15:46
yvlnot my call anyway ;)15:46
aelknerno problem15:46
th1aAn action button that says "Inbox" or whatever we're calling it seems reasonable.15:46
aelknerth1a: it's your call15:46
th1aWhat are we calling that view?15:46
aelknerthe url is intervention_students.html15:47
aelknerthe title is Search Intervention Students15:47
yvlth1a, I'll give you some screenshots in a moment15:47
yvlto illustrate15:47
aelknerawe, heck, i was going to send th1a some screenshots15:48
aelknerth1a: we could talk about this after the meeting15:48
aelknerand i can make any changes you deem fit15:48
th1aOr, just later, in case I need another nap immediately after the meeting.15:49
th1aWhich I suspect I will.15:49
aelkneryvl: thanks for merging what i got so soon15:49
aelknernah, i can stay awake :)15:49
replaceafillaelkner, are we going to update jelkner's instance?15:49
aelknerso i'm ready to move on from intervention to the next major discussion point15:49
aelknerreplaceafill: i was gong to ask you to :)15:49
aelknerbut wait15:50
aelknerwhat paackage is he using?15:50
aelknerthat's fine15:51
replaceafillrevno: 24015:51
aelkneryvl: i pushed the same changes to that branch15:51
aelknerit's at revision 244 now15:52
yvlwell, you may want to switch to trunk at some point15:52
aelkneryvl: true15:53
aelknerit's just that i can get changes faster to jelkner using my own branch15:53
yvlthat's okay15:54
yvlonce you click on student's search button you get to the second screenshot15:54
yvlsomething along lines "list all students" button in screenshot 115:55
yvland a button after the fieldset that says "back to inbox"15:55
yvlwould make navigation a little bit easier15:55
aelknerth1a: after the fieldset or before?15:56
yvl(I vote after ;) )15:56
aelkneri mean, should the user have to scroll, or should they see the annoying button at the beginning15:56
yvl(right in the place where "Inbox" fieldset was)15:56
aelkneryvl: i know your vote :)15:56
yvl(right where the user could expect his inbox to be)15:57
yvl(because he SAW it there)15:57
aelknerthat's a good point15:57
th1aWhat is the "Intervention Center" at this point?15:57
yvlintervention center for the teacher15:57
th1aWe probably need to rename some things here.15:57
yvlteacher's goals etc :)15:57
aelknerthat button takes you to the student intervention page15:58
yvlaelkner: http://localhost:7080/persons/teacher2/intervention/intervention_center.html15:58
aelknerit was so titled to not conflict with the Intervention tab15:58
aelknerth1a: are you asking about the url?15:58
th1aI don't care what the view is called internally, but it is becoming a problem to the user.15:59
aelknerhow so?15:59
aelknerare you referring to the recent bug report?15:59
th1aWell, for example, I don't know what an intervention center is.15:59
aelknerasked and answered :)16:00
aelkneras they say in court16:00
th1aThe student intervention page?16:00
aelkneri could change the button to read Student Interventions16:00
th1aI don't know what I'm going to find on that page.16:00
th1aThat's my point.16:00
aelknershall i make that change?16:01
aelknershall we discuss such details after the meeting?16:01
yvlth1a, you'll just get directly to login page usually16:01
th1aWhich change are you referring to?16:01
yvlbecause students are not allowed to see their own interventions16:01
th1ayvl: lol.16:01
aelknerth1a doesn't read message from /me16:01
aelkneri could change the button to read Student Interventions16:02
th1aBut where does that go?!?!  WHAT WILL I SEE THERE???16:02
aelknerStudent Interventions?!16:02
th1aIf I am a teacher.16:02
yvlif you are logged in as a teacher16:02
yvlyou would see16:02
yvlthe intervention center for you,16:03
yvlas a student16:03
aelkneryou don't want a sentence for a button, do you?16:03
yvlthe way other teachers look at you16:03
yvlas a student16:03
th1ayvl:  Exactly.16:03
th1aRight aelkner?16:03
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aelknerif you are viewing a student16:04
aelknerand you hit Intervention Center16:04
aelknerit takes you to (drumroll please)16:04
aelknerte intervention center for the student16:04
aelknerthat seemed pretty explanatory to me16:04
yvlaelkner, I'd go as far as hiding the "Intervention Center" button if the logged in person does not have access to the intervention center16:04
th1aBut if I'm at my dashboard, I'm not viewing a student.16:05
yvlaelkner, some teachers may not correctly guess that the system treats them as students16:05
yvlin this button16:05
yvlespecially if they are not students16:05
aelknerah, you're referring to when the teacher is on his own home page16:05
aelknerad he sees that button16:06
th1aI guess what I'm saying is that perhaps all the person action buttons should be hidden when I'm at my intervention dashboard.16:06
aelknertrue, that is not a useful button in that case16:06
aelkneri would need to create a proxy and traversal adapter to change the context, but it could be done16:06
aelkneri see what the problem is: the dashboard has IBasicPerson as context16:07
aelknerthat's why that button appears16:07
aelknerfor some reason i didn't even notice it16:07
aelknerthus it didn't bother me, but i get what the complaint is16:08
th1aWould it take a couple hours?16:08
aelknerhalf a day at most16:08
th1aOK, do that then.16:08
aelknerso no need to rename the Intervention Center button that appears on the student page16:09
aelknerbecuase it won't appear with the dashboeard?16:09
yvlI still suggest simply hiding it if the person not hasAccess16:10
aelkneryvl: on the student page, rght?16:10
th1ayvl:  Yes, do that too.16:10
aelknerok, i have two tasks16:10
aelknerbut i want to move on to discussing this upcoming weekend16:11
aelkneris that ok?16:11
aelknerso i reviewed the screenshots that dwelsh sent us16:12
aelknerof course, i will know a lot more when i get down there and see their VB app16:13
aelknerbut the basic idea is that they will want to have a course database16:13
th1aI'm not sure yvl and replaceafill know what we're talking about, btw.16:14
aelknerwith courses that are more involved than current schooltool courses16:14
aelknerok, could be16:14
aelknerso i'm going dow to virginia nect weekend16:14
aelknerto work with dwlesh's brother16:14
aelknerwho wrote Visual Basic app that allows students and parents to plan16:15
aelknerwhat courses the student will take for their school career16:15
th1aPerhaps you could also forward the screenshots after the meeting.16:15
menesisfor me "Intervention Center" sounds strange, I would label it simply "Interventions" to match Reports, Contacts, etc on the same menu16:16
aelknermenesis: that could make sense16:16
aelknerInterventions doesn't conflict with the Intervention tab16:16
th1aIt it was Microsoft, it would be "My Interventions"16:17
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menesisjust a note, I haven't followed the discussion or seen the new pages.16:17
menesisth1a :D16:17
yvlth1a, and "His interventions" for other persons maybe? ;)16:17
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aelkneri just forwarded dwelsh's email to yvl and replaceafill16:18
yvlgot it, thanks16:18
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aelknereach course a student plans to take will have pre-requisites16:20
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aelknerso the student can only schedule courses that are appropriate16:20
aelknereach dourse has a start and end grade level16:21
aelknera schoolyear (also called grade) has electives and enrichments (core reqs?)16:22
th1aYou need to use yvl's new grade levels.16:23
aelkneris that in trunk?16:23
yvlof course not16:23
aelkneris that cambodia only?16:23
aelknerso that's out16:24
yvlwe'll need something like that in ST16:24
aelknercould we get it in there this week?16:24
th1aIf only we had some kind of system for passing changes in a non-centralized fashion.16:25
yvlwell, we could, but I suggest not to16:25
th1aPerhaps even a distributed system.16:25
yvlfor source code, maybe16:25
th1aOf revision control.16:25
aelknerth1a: what are suggesting exactly16:25
th1aMaybe Mark could sponsor such work.16:25
yvlwell, you made my day again ;)16:25
yvlbut seriously16:26
aelknerbut what are you suggesting exactly?16:26
yvllevels are not "production ready" in my opinion16:26
yvlthough if you really really need them16:26
aelknerwhat branch of schooltool should i branch for this weekend?16:26
th1aWe're not having two implementations.16:26
yvlI hear you16:27
aelknersomeone answer my question please16:27
yvlthat's why: if you really need them16:27
yvlaelkner, we're discussing that16:27
yvlso, this CanDo work...16:27
th1aThis isn't going to be deployed for quite a while anyhow.16:27
aelknerthis isn't Cando work16:28
yvlok, good...16:28
yvlwait, what?16:28
aelknerthat;s part of what we need to discuss here16:28
yvlwhat is it then?16:28
aelknerit needs to be another plugin for schooltool16:28
aelkneror someting like that16:29
aelknerwhere courses reside16:29
aelknerthat get scheduled by the student/parents16:29
th1aIt is not CanDo in the sense that it is not competency tracking.16:29
aelknerthen, perhaps students get auto-enrolled in  the actual courses each year16:29
aelknerit's  ot going to be part of the cando package16:30
aelknerit's meant to be useful to any schooltool user16:30
aelknernot just cando users16:30
yvlis it supposed to be deployed with CanDo?16:30
yvland compatible?16:31
aelknernot related16:31
yvlas in - always compatible?16:31
aelknercando own't know about it16:31
aelknerwon't need to16:31
yvlso it's not a problem if at some point users can have either CanDo or course planning but *not* both16:31
aelknercando leverages schooltool.section16:32
aelknerwhich of course works off o schooltool.course16:32
aelknerbut this will be someting else16:32
aelknerthat will have its own app folder16:32
aelknercontaining courses that are more detailed than schooltool courses16:32
aelknerthe student can schedule them16:33
aelknerand then perhaps we could auto-enroll them16:33
aelkneror not16:33
aelknerbut at least they can plan their career16:33
aelknerin a way, it does address the idea of a course catalog for the school16:33
aelknerwhere schooltool.course currently does not16:33
aelknerbecuase that course is specific to a schoolyear16:34
aelknerthese courses would live ABOVE the schoolyear concept16:34
th1aIs there some reason you can't use annotations on the current courses?16:34
aelknerthe current courses live in schoolyears16:34
th1aThere's a reason for that.16:35
aelknerso they are not year over year objects16:35
th1aIf you make courses more detailed and complex, they're even more likely to change over time.16:36
th1aNote that the pieces that tend to be missing in our school year implementation are pretty trivial, e.g., a button that copies all last year's courses to this year.16:37
aelkneri'm just saying that currently, schooltool.course is tied to schoolyear16:37
aelknercopying to another year would be a nice feature16:37
* th1a is sensing that this could go on for a long time...16:37
aelknerbut it doesn't change the fact that the course is schoolyear dependant16:38
th1aCopying to the next year is an absolutely essential feature.16:38
aelknerok, essential, but still my point remains16:38
th1aAre you going to do versioning?16:38
th1aThe alternatives are either, just make new instances per year or do versioning.16:39
aelkneri'm not sure what you mean with versioning16:39
aelkneri would think that a course catalog should be a static thing16:39
aelknerthis school offers these courses16:40
th1aThey will change, and they particularly will change the more detail you add, like sequences.16:40
th1aThose change.16:40
aelknerregardless of what year the calendar says16:40
yvlpathways and course clusters should be copied/modified per schoolyear16:40
aelknerok, fine they change from time to time16:40
aelknerbut ot ties to schoolyear16:40
aelknerfour years could go by with no change to any course16:40
aelkneror they could change every year16:40
yvlyes..... so....16:41
aelknerbut they would not be stuck in a schoolyear folder16:41
aelknersince they like ABOVE that concept16:41
th1aBeing stuck in a schoolyear folder is not really a problem.16:41
aelknerit's a data model flaw16:41
th1aThat's what we do with competencies now, right?16:42
th1aWe've already had this conversation many times.16:42
aelknerthink of Miscrosoft Word templates versus docs16:42
yvlaelkner, they are not above that concept16:42
yvlyou either offer to teache the courses within a schoolyear16:42
yvlor you do not16:42
yvlthe course pathways deal with *grades* not *schoolyears*16:43
th1aThe courses *will* stay the same within years, and they will change, sometimes in complex ways, between years.16:43
aelknera student will be planning (in the case of high school) four schoolyear16:43
yvlfor *grades*16:43
yvlor *levels*16:43
yvlor whatever16:43
yvlnot for schoolyears16:43
aelknersame difference16:43
yvllook at the forms16:43
yvland this is important!16:44
yvlgrades 7-12 are taught courses16:44
aelknerthe point is, they are planning courses, not course/schoolyear combos as the current data model requires16:44
yvlnot years 2007-201116:44
yvland this is very important16:44
yvlthe point is16:44
yvlthey are using grades (levels)16:44
yvlthat we *do not have* in schooltool yet16:45
yvland you say that schoolyear==grade16:45
aelkneri was only saying that a course lives in a schoolyear folder16:45
yvlschoolyears have courses that the school offers16:45
aelkneri think i know where yvl is gong with this16:46
yvlstudents plan to take the path of courses16:46
yvlthey consider what courses are offered this year16:46
aelknerso the current schoolyear contains the inventory of available courses16:46
aelknereven if the student may be planning on a course for the fourth year16:46
aelkneror grade or level as it were16:47
th1aBut it would not be unusual for the math sequence to change from one year to the next from:16:47
th1aalg. 1 > alg. 2 > geometry16:47
th1ato alg. 1 > geometry > alg. 216:47
th1aOr integrated math 1, i.m. 2, i.m. 3.16:47
th1aSo you have to anticipate those kind of changes.16:48
yvlthe thing is16:48
yvlthat when implementing "offered pathways" or whatever that is called16:48
yvlyou should also consider that though some courses will no longer be offered for students, say in first year16:49
yvlstudents in fourth year will still be able to learn them16:49
yvlif they signed up for them16:49
yvlthree years ago16:49
yvlwe kind of need some data structures:16:50
yvlfrom the top of my head16:50
yvl1) grades / levels16:50
yvl2) pathways16:50
yvlor even 2) clusters / divisions16:51
yvl3) pathways selected by student16:51
th1aBut courses should just need more metadata.16:51
yvlmaybe... it may be even better to completely separate that16:52
aelknerthat's what i was suggesting from the outset16:53
yvlbut, sorry, I can't decide right away16:53
yvlaelkner: the complete separation would reside within a schoolyear also!16:53
th1aMy points are a) don't make new course objects;16:53
th1ab) don't do this stuff outside school years.16:54
* yvl fully agrees16:54
th1a(with a few possible exceptions, e.g., a person's plan)16:54
aelknerso an administrator creates a new school year16:54
aelknerthis copies last years courses forward16:55
aelknerthen the admin makes any changes that my be the case in the coming year16:55
aelknerthen the system is ready for the student/parts at home?16:55
aelknerdoes that make sense for a workflow?16:55
th1aI'd say the copying should be a manual step.16:55
aelkneri thought it was already automatic16:55
th1aOr perhaps it should be automatic, it would be easy enough to delete them on the rare occasions you didn't want to repeat almost any of them.16:56
th1aOK... I need to let replaceafill and yvl report quickly before it is midnight in Vilnius.16:57
yvlwell, not much to report16:57
yvlwe kind of spoke several times last week16:57
yvlas for this week16:57
yvlI want to fix person catalogs16:58
yvlbecause they're causing too much pain for me16:58
yvlthen change the security thing we discussed earlier16:59
yvlthen we'll see16:59
yvlI have some stuff planned, but I'd expect request in the middle of the week16:59
yvl(for example, merge security debug info to trunk)17:00
yvlanyway... I'm done :)17:00
aelkneryvl: again thanks for getting my changes merged17:01
replaceafillth1a, i sent you some screenshots17:01
yvlyou're welcome, aelkner :)17:01
replaceafilli got rid of a lot of sandboxes17:01
replaceafilland picked my changes to the email service17:01
replaceafillcheckbox to disable it17:01
replaceafilland the feature to send email to contacts17:01
replaceafillyvl, my branch is at
replaceafilli haven't asked for a review/merge yet17:02
yvlI think that is merger17:02
yvl* merged already17:02
th1areplaceafill:  We'll almost certainly be implementing more email features soon.17:03
th1aEmail to group, things like that.17:03
replaceafillah yes17:03
yvloh, no, wait, not merged yet17:03
replaceafillyvl, i was waiting for th1a comments on the conditions i put17:03
th1aIs there more shoring up of the underlying queue mechanism necessary?17:03
replaceafillfor a teacher to send an email:17:03
replaceafill1. the email service has to be enabled17:04
replaceafill2. the teacher should have an email set17:04
replaceafill3. the contact should have an email set17:04
replaceafillif these three are true, the 'Send Email' button appears17:04
th1aSounds right to me.17:04
replaceafilli don't know if appearing/disappearing is a good approach17:04
replaceafillbut it works that way17:04
replaceafillcool17:04 and schooltool.task was another question of mine17:05
replaceafillare we putting schooltool.task in the next release?17:05
th1aI would hope so.17:06
replaceafillah ok17:06
th1aNot my decision though.17:06
yvlit would be a little bit prettier if 'Send Email' appeared when teacher has no email, but sending email would be disabled.  'Please specify your email in contacts' or something17:06
replaceafillthat would allow us to tell the teacher, "your email has been queue..."17:06
replaceafillor something17:06
replaceafillyvl, nice!17:06
th1ayvl: True.17:06
replaceafillwill make that change then17:07
replaceafillyvl, what about schooltool.task?17:07
yvlI'll think about it this week17:07
yvlif nothing urgent comes up17:07
replaceafilland finally i started with the enrollment statuses17:07
replaceafillyvl, we're adding the new attribute to the catalog, right?17:08
replaceafillthrough evolution?17:08
yvlnot through evolution, but yes17:08
yvlI'll tell you how, when I implement that... on Tue or Wed17:08
yvlthat's one of the parts of 'fixin person catalog' ;)17:09
replaceafillth1a, i guess that's it17:09
replaceafilli'll check my new bugs17:10
th1aOK gentlemen.17:10
replaceafilland see which of them are going to be in the release17:10
th1aI haven't really been marking that lately.17:10
replaceafillah ok17:10
th1amenesis:  What release should I be targeting in LP for Lucid?17:10
menesiswhat package?17:11
th1aAh.  ;-)17:11
menesisI think most of projects have only one milestone active17:12
menesison trunk17:12
th1aSo I can use that one?17:12
menesisall of them will go to lucid17:12
menesisand karmic as well17:12
th1aAll right.17:13
menesiswhat was "fix committed" i target to the next release17:13
th1aThanks menesis.17:14
menesisexcept the main lp:schooltool project17:14
menesisit has
th1aI should use that?17:14
yvlok guys... gotta go17:14
menesisthat has some bugs targeted for a long time but they were deferred for some milestones already and no one is working on them17:14
yvldrop a note on IRC or email, as usual :)17:14
th1aHave a great week gentlemen!17:14
yvland... happy hacking ;)17:14
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:15
replaceafillthanks guys17:15
menesisso whoever is better informed, yvl or th1a, please correct them17:15
menesisthere is also
th1aI can go through the old bugs.17:15
menesisthat has many bugs targeted but I have no idea what can make lucid17:15
aelknercan we meet tomorrow morning at the same time?17:15
menesisplease create milestones and target bugs as neccessary17:16
aelkneryvl, th1a: it seems that we've only just begun this discussion17:16
menesis1.3.1 will be the next release17:16
menesisof schooltool17:16
aelknerabout course scheduling i mean17:16
menesis1.4.0 will be final release for Lucid17:16
menesisI would like to release schooltool-1.3.1 soon17:17
th1aaelkner:  Let's talk on the phone first.17:18
* th1a goes to lie down.17:20
aelknerreplaceafill: can you update jelkner's instance today?17:21
replaceafilli can now if you want17:22
replaceafillyour same ri_sprint branch, correct?17:23
aelknerperhaps we should wait until tomorrow17:23
replaceafillah ok17:23
aelknernow that i think of it, i have some changes to make17:23
aelkneri can email you toinight17:23
replaceafillcool, let me knwo17:23
aelknerwill do17:23
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