IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2009-12-07

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th1ahi aelkner, yvl, menesis, replaceafill, Lumiere.16:31
aelknerhey th1a16:31
replaceafillgood morning16:31
yvlmorning guys16:32
th1aBefore I forget, aelkner, replaceafill -- November invoices, please.16:32
th1aHave to buy Christmas presents...16:32
aelknerok, will have that for you today16:33
replaceafillme 216:33
th1aaelkner, would you like to start us off?16:34
aelknerok, took a couple of days off last week due to a cold16:35
aelknerbut i did manage to get the dublincore migration done16:36
aelknerand i fixed the broken unit test stemming from the missing sender email16:36
aelknerand i fixed the person list widget to not allow the user who has no email set to think they could send a message16:37
aelkneralso, i moved yvl's hack protection code to a new emaikl message class that contains the logic16:38
aelknerfor protecting against bad email messages16:38
aelkneri requested a merge, so i await any further review16:39
yvlwill do16:40
aelkneryvl: i can't seem to see my branches in the following query:16:40
aelkneronly old branches show up there, not the new ones16:41
aelkneryvl: could you please send me a link that shows all branches?16:42
menesiswhat branches are missing?..16:42
replaceafillaelkner, maybe you need schooltool-project instead of schooltool only16:42
menesisoh yes, true16:42
aelknerah, yes, ok16:42
aelknerthat stinks16:43
menesisplus, merged branches are hidden16:43
yvlnote the "Any active status" VS "Any status" dropdown16:43
aelkneri tried any status, and that didn't help16:43
yvlonce the branch is merged, Launchpad thinks you're done with it16:44
menesisand regarding old branches - you can safely remove them if they were merged and you don't plan any further work on them16:44
yvlanyway, the link replaceafill gave should give you what you need16:44
aelkneri'll work it out, i'll just need one button in my browser for each project now16:45
aelknerregarding bug
aelkneri was wondering if we could wait until we sprint in January to discuss such a sweeping change16:46
menesisaelkner: no, schooltool-project lists all branches in all projects16:47
menesisso you need only one bookmark16:47
aelknerto the way schooltool.intervention handles references to persons16:47
aelknerright now, the use of the person id as a sort of foreign key is pretty pervasive throughout the project16:48
th1aPerhaps yvl could provide a little further explanation.16:48
yvlI'm trying to figure out what explanation is needed here16:49
aelknerit's not about explaining anything16:50
yvlthe current implementation is plain wrong in the context of schooltool - no offense intended here, really!16:50
yvlit does not make any sense that brothers and sisters are considered and *shown as* parents16:50
yvlso, we can either fix it, or avoid fixing it16:51
aelkneroh, that's what you meant16:51
aelknerthat's a lot simper than i thought16:51
aelkneryou're suggesting simply that the person list widget show the relationship type16:52
aelknerrhater than assume parent16:52
yvlapologies for not being clear enough in the bug description16:52
aelknerno problem, it's not you, just me thinking you meant something much more complex16:53
yvlI did not mean "relationship between objects in the database" or anything like that16:53
aelkneryes, that's was my confusion16:53
aelkneryou can imagine why i considered that to be a much bigger project16:53
aelknernow the question is:16:53
aelknershould the contact show up in the list if the relationship type i NOT parent?16:54
yvlumm, th1a?16:54
aelknershould we be showing brothers and sisters in the person list widget?16:54
yvlthat's kind of not my area of expertise ;)16:54
th1aWhich list?16:54
th1aContacts on a person?16:54
aelknerthe person lst widget16:55
th1aWhich form?16:55
aelknerused both when adding messages and goals16:55
aelknerwhere you click on who the email should be sent to16:55
yvlcurrent fixed values:             ('parent', _("Parent")),16:55
yvl            ('step_parent', _("Step-parent")),16:55
yvl            ('foster_parent', _("Foster parent")),16:55
yvl            ('guardian', _("Guardian")),16:55
yvl            ('sibling', _("Sibling")),16:55
aelknerfirst column contains staff16:55
yvland "not specified"16:55
aelknersecond, self and contacts16:56
th1aSo currently I have the option of sending a notification to a sibling?16:56
aelkneri just assumed all contacts to be parents16:56
th1aIt is an option, right?16:56
aelkneryes, and that person would be marked as PARENT: in the person list widget16:56
th1aPerhaps Name (relationship)16:57
th1aDon't need to yell it.16:57
aelknerlehmann asked for the 'PARENT:" text16:57
th1aWell, I'm telling you not to do it that way.16:57
aelknerthat was when we had that info hard-coded into schooltool.intervention demos16:58
aelknerthere was o concept of ICantact16:58
aelknerand IContact16:58
th1aAnyhow, sometimes a student's sibling is the person responsible for them legally.16:58
aelknernow that there is, i can see that assuming all contact to be parents is a mistake16:58
aelknerth1a: so i should show all contacts and identify the type as the prefix16:59
aelknerand not use caps as lehmann had suggested?16:59
th1aI think that's a little harsh.17:00
th1aI'd do:  Alan Elkner (sibling)17:00
th1aRather than:  SIBLING: Alan Elkner17:00
aelknerhow about 'Sibling:' as a prefix17:00
th1aI don't like it.17:01
aelknerthat way i could use the international text listed by yvl above17:01
th1aIt is impersonal.17:01
th1aWhat's the difference?17:01
aelknerin yvl's list above, the second column is the international string17:02
aelknerthe first column is a key, not to be shown in the UI17:02
yvlah, the capitalization17:02
th1aThat's not a big deal.  Plus .lower()17:02
aelkneryvl: .lower() ok in your opinion?17:03
yvlhmm, don't remember how it's done with i10n17:03
yvlwill check a bit later17:03
yvlwhen it comes to i10n, you can't assume anything17:03
th1aAnyway, capitalization is fine.17:04
aelknerth1a: is it so bad to have the first letter capitalized?17:04
aelknersorry, didn't see your message17:04
th1aIt is fine.17:04
aelkneri'll replace 'PARENTL' with '%s:' % relationship type text17:05
th1aI mean, when we get the rest of the capitalization consistent in SchoolTool, we might revisit this.  :-017:05
aelknerok, i'll move the relationship type to after the name and use parentheses17:06
yvlaelkner: yes, .lower() should work17:06
aelknerok, i'll use it then17:06
aelknerthat's it for me17:07
yvlspent most of the week reading the internets17:09
yvland a bit of it discussing with menesis17:09
yvlthings related to getting into Ubuntu and making late December release, that plays along with zope packages in Karmic17:10
yvldon't know if it's worth getting into details, so I'll give just a rough outline17:10
th1aAn outline at least.17:10
yvlDebian testing freeze seems to be late17:11
yvl(and Lucid being LTS pulls from Debian/testing)17:11
yvlI'd expect Debian to freeze somewhere in Jan, though they should have done that in Dec (and have announced that in Sep if I recall correctly)17:12
yvlafter testing is frozen we'll know what Zope packages got through17:12
yvland will start working out a KGS that works for us17:13
th1aOK.  We don't need to go through Debian though.17:13
yvland port ST to that KGS if/where needed17:13
th1aMy understanding is we're shooting straight into Ubuntu.17:13
yvlyes, I'm getting to that17:13
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yvlnow, the Ubuntu part17:14
yvlit auto-imports the packages from Debian/testing, so that's less work for us (yay)17:14
yvlonce the auto-import is frozen (ETA Feb 11th),17:15
yvlwe start uploading the remaining needed packages17:15
yvlprerequisite: menesis must become Zope packager in Ubuntu by then17:15
yvland we have 2.5 months to get the release right since then17:16
th1aThe next release.17:17
yvlI'd like to have ST built for Lucid by March 18th (Lucid beta1 release)17:17
yvlthe Lucid release17:17
yvlI'd like == I just think it's a good deadline and gives us enough time to fix broken things untill the final Lucid17:18
yvl(April 29th)17:18
th1aI'm with you.17:18
yvlso that covers the Lucid release17:18
yvlas for Karmic, I'm not 100% sure if I'll make it by Christmas17:19
yvl80-90 %17:20
th1aThat's why you're getting an incentive.  ;-)17:20
yvlwell, 90-95 %, not to scare you :)17:20
yvlok, that covers the release talk17:21
yvlit all looks doable, and there are worms deeper in it17:21
yvlthe other thing is translations17:22
yvl(just thought it's a good place to discuss transition to Structured)17:22
yvlI hope you got my email17:22
th1aI did get it.17:23
th1aI think there are more people who translate a bunch of applications for a certain language more than, well, certainly there aren't a lot of people who translate one application into a lot of languages.17:24
th1aAnd realistically, probably not a lot of people who only translate one application, like SchoolTool,17:25
th1aso I suspect that Launchpad's approach is more practical.17:25
yvlin the long run...17:25
yvlI'd vote for a translation group17:26
yvljust not LP Translators17:26
th1aYes, in the long run, it might make sense.17:27
th1aI think it probably doesn't at the moment.17:27
th1a(that is, our own group does not seem necessary yet)17:27
th1aDoes that seem ok in the short run, yvl, menesis?17:28
th1aAny thoughts on this, replaceafill?17:28
replaceafillto be honest, i'm still trying to understand how translation groups work :(17:28
replaceafilli saw the spanish translation group has some members still pending for approval17:29
yvlth1a: damn my lack of writing skills.  I meant that in the long run LPT may make sense, I doubt that they are useful now.  Might just complicate stuff.17:29
th1aIt may also depend on how well they actually work in practice.17:29
th1aI can imagine them being very useful.17:29
th1aI can also imagine them not being well organized or implemented.17:30
replaceafilli have one doubt on this17:30
replaceafillyou have spanish translations17:30
replaceafillbut for example salvadorean terms are sligthly different from spanish original terms17:30
replaceafillfor example the word "computer"17:31
replaceafillis different17:31
replaceafillis this related to a group17:31
replaceafillor just to a .pot template?17:31
th1areplaceafill, are you a Launchpad Translator?17:31
replaceafillno th1a, not yet17:32
th1aPerhaps you could get an inside perspective on this for us.17:32
replaceafillmaybe i should ask there, right?17:32
replaceafillah ok17:32
menesisI only have one problem with translations -- most of them are very incomplete and thus useless, yet I include them.17:32
th1aIt does not take a lot of extra work for you to include the incomplete ones though, right?17:33
menesisno, it only adds to branch and tarball size17:34
th1aI tend to think people would be more likely to complete a translation if they can see it half-done.17:35
th1aEasier to say "I could finish this." that thinking "Am I going to have to do this whole thing myself?"17:36
th1aOr even "Eh, I could translate this better than whatever idiot started this." is a kind of incentive.17:36
th1aAt least to some people.  ;-)17:36
th1aAnyhow, if replaceafill could join Launchpad Translators and investigate a bit for us, that would be a good next step.17:38
replaceafillth1a, will do17:38
menesisyes, but that's an opposite problem than you want to solve17:38
menesisthat is conflicts in complete translations like es17:38
th1aThat's why we need some kind of control.17:38
menesisbut if a Closed group can be effective in filtering out accidental translations of a few strings, I would like that17:39
replaceafillme 217:39
th1aClosed rather than structured?17:40
th1aDo you use Translation Groups with closed?17:40
menesisthat is, translations to Esperanto or Latin or whatever that will never be complete or used, but take up space17:40
menesisI haven't read what the options are, wanted to say "Not Open"17:41
th1aI don't think you can do it by language.17:41
yvlwe should ask LP do develop this feature17:42
yvlpermissions by language17:42
menesisI am not an active translator, and even if I am a member of the lt translators team they don't communicate at all. Too much work, too small a team, don't know about translator groups17:42
th1aSome of the documentation suggests this is possible, but I couldn't find a way to do it.17:42
yvlmenesis: Restricted: ideal if your priority is to manage translation quality, or if translation to some languages is managed elsewhere. It is similar to Structured. However, the ability to translate is unavailable for those languages that don't have an individual or team assigned to it within the translation group.17:44
yvlyou wanted this one, not Closed17:45
th1aI see.17:45
th1aSo probaby we should just request a translation group.17:45
th1aShould I just do that?17:47
th1areplaceafill, any report for this week before we close?17:48
replaceafillyes, quickly17:49
replaceafilli finished the schooltool.intervention i18n review17:49
replaceafilland then i saw some msgids with lots of markup in there17:49
replaceafilllike this:
replaceafilldiscussed it with menesis and he told me some markup in messages was ok17:50
replaceafillthe problem with this is that sometimes, translators don't mark the translation in the right way17:51
th1aThat looks like too much.17:51
replaceafilli saw some views in spanish all in bold17:51
th1aWhat's the best way to fix it?17:51
ignastests for translations? ;)17:52
replaceafillignas wrote about pofilter17:53
replaceafillmaybe that could be an option17:53
ignasyeah, but it only shows errors, does not correct them17:53
yvlsuch errors should be corrected manually, IMHO17:53
ignasstill, if you have/are a native speaker, just run them yourself, and fix the translations17:53
yvland yes, I will do tests for translations a bit later :)17:54
ignasyeah, of course, my point is - just seeing the errors is not enough unless you fix them17:54
replaceafillignas, i didnt get why the had an error17:54
replaceafillthe "_"17:54
ignasreplaceafill, you can just easy_install it in a virtualenv and run on the spanish translation if you want to17:54
yvlah, and my hat off again for ignas' blogpost about pofilter17:54
ignasthanks, found the tool mostly by accident17:55
replaceafillignas, could it detect uncomplete markup?17:55
ignasreplaceafill, i think -t xmltags17:56
ignasis the filter you want to add17:56
replaceafillth1a, question? should i check cando as i did with all the other plugins?17:57
replaceafilli mean, cando's i18n17:57
th1aUm... that's probably a bridge too far right now.17:57
th1aIt is a lot bigger than interventions.17:57
replaceafillok, that's why i didnt do it :)17:57
replaceafilland the last thing is cando 2009.XX stuff17:58
th1aAnd they paid no attention to i18n whatsoever, as far as I know.17:58
replaceafillbut the mails have been going around, so you're informed about it17:58
replaceafillno, they don't17:58
replaceafilli downloaded hardy yesterday17:58
replaceafillused the latest ACC Data.fs17:58
replaceafilland everything looks normal17:59
replaceafillnothing breaks and the new CanDo functionality is there17:59
replaceafillaelkner, you're on this one, right?
replaceafillth1a, that's it for me, i just wonder where else could i help18:02
yvlreplaceafill, expect an email from me tomorrow :)18:03
th1aSo you're feeling pretty good about i18n in the core then?18:04
replaceafillyvl, remotetask?18:04
replaceafillth1a, yes, mostly18:04
replaceafillth1a, well, the messages are translatable18:04
th1aWhat's still problematic?18:04
th1aWhat you were just discussing?18:04
replaceafillmark up bothers me, but i dont know if splitting is the right way18:04
th1aThose are pretty much just places where I've added on-screen documentation?18:05
replaceafillmenesis said that if we break the messages we will lose LP translations18:05
th1aI guess we're stuck with it for now then.18:05
replaceafillhhmm, some forms with instructions18:05
replaceafillbut most common used UI is good18:06
th1aI remember that now.18:07
th1areplaceafill, OK, you can do what yvl tells you to do.18:09
th1aI sent next years proposal to Mark.  Waiting for a reply.18:09
replaceafillth1a, got it18:09
th1aAnd I think that's it for now.18:09
menesisreplaceafill also helped me with intervention i18n18:09
menesisI have just merged that work18:10
yvlreplaceafill, you should have seen the smile on menesis face when he noticed your work ;)18:10
replaceafilli'm glad i can help ;)18:10
th1amenesis, feel free to give replaceafill more i18n work if we've got it.18:11
th1aHave a great week gentlemen!18:11
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.18:11
yvlth1a, as for translation group, I think you'll have to make an uninformed decision... Project manager's curse...18:11
th1aI'm going to see what we need to do to make our own group.18:12
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menesisthat's more a talk with translator or launchpad people than us18:13
th1aThat's what I mean.18:13
yvlexample request:
yvlok, good week to you all!18:14
replaceafillthanks guys18:14
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ryanpghi all... it appears schooltool-2009 is very messed up on karmic, specifically, it can't be installed18:31
ryanpgthe web page directions do not appear to be correct18:31
ryanpgthe site says; "Create and edit (as root) /etc/apt/preferences" however, it seems this has no effect18:32
menesisryanpg: schooltool conflicts with some packages in karmic18:34
menesisno one else uses them, and we have working packages in our PPA18:34
menesisbut you need to tell APT to prefer packages from the PPA18:35
ryanpgright, but karmic has /etc/apt/preferences.d/18:35
menesisI don't know if preferences.d works at all18:36
ryanpgI tried just creating the /etc/apt/preferences file as instructed, but kamic ignored it18:36
menesisif you create preferences and add the four lines to it, should work18:36
menesisdid you apt-get update?18:36
ryanpgyes, twice in fact :)18:36
ryanpgeven logged out - just in case18:37
menesisryanpg: what error do you get?..18:39
ryanpgThe following packages have unmet dependencies:18:39
ryanpg  schooltool-2009: Depends: python-schooltool but it is not going to be installed18:39
ryanpg                   Depends: python-schooltool.stapp2008fall but it is not going to be installed18:39
ryanpgE: Broken packages18:39
ryanpgThe following packages have unmet dependencies:18:40
ryanpg  python-schooltool: Depends: python-zope.component (< 3.6.0) but 3.7.1-3 is to be installed18:40
ryanpg                     Depends: python-zodb (< 1:3.9.0) but 1:3.9.0-2 is to be installed18:40
ryanpg                     Depends: python-zope.i18n (< 3.6.0) but 3.7.0-4 is to be installed18:40
ryanpg                     Depends: python-zope.location (< 3.5.0) but 3.6.0-2 is to be installed18:40
ryanpg                     Depends: python-zope.publisher (< 3.6.0) but 3.9.1-2 is to be installed18:40
ryanpg                     Depends: (< 3.6.0) but 3.7.1-2 is to be installed18:40
ryanpg                     Depends: python-zope.traversing (< 3.6.0) but 3.7.1-4 is to be installed18:40
ryanpgsorry for the flood :)18:40
ryanpgthe second is if I try to install python-schooltool18:40
menesisthe same18:41
ryanpgI tried manually selecting the ppa version of python-zope.component, but that brought in a whole bunch of dependencies that are also too current18:41
ryanpg"the same" ?18:41
menesisthe same error as without the preferences file18:42
menesisso the pins don't work18:42
menesisbut don't know why18:42
menesisit is possible to solve conflicts with aptitude, it suggests some solutions and you choose to install schooltool and downgrade zope18:43
menesisif you know how to use it..18:43
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ryanpgugh... I hate aptitude18:44
ryanpg:P I really can't use it18:44
ryanpgthe website directions are wrong, the first line beginning with "Explanation" should be removed18:45
ryanpgit should read....18:45
ryanpgPackage: *18:46
ryanpgPin: release o=LP-PPA-schooltool-owners18:46
ryanpgPin-Priority: 100118:46
* mgedmin hates aptitude too18:46
ryanpgmenesis, just need to correct the web page by removing this line from the instructions "Explanation: prefer packages from SchoolTool PPA"18:47
menesisdoes it work without Explanation?18:47
menesisit is not needed, just a comment..18:47
ryanpgmgedmin, It's one of those tools that I'm sure is SOOPER powerful, but it's just too difficult to learn all the statemets18:47
ryanpgmenesis, yes it works, that's why I'm suggesting it... if it's a comment, shouldn't there be a # or a ; in front of it?18:48
* ryanpg is not at all familiar with pinning18:48
menesisno, it should be Explanation: ...18:49
ryanpgwell, something isn't right anyway... as it works without that line, but not with... sorry I can't even guess why :)18:49
menesisthe important thing is that it now works for you :)18:50
ryanpgthat is true... if there are floods of other people with the same issue, at least you will know where to look18:51
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menesishaven't been yet18:52
menesisand we are working on upgrading schooltool to use the libraries available in karmic18:52
menesishope to solve that for a Christmas release18:53
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th1aryanpg, Did you try updating schooltool without changing the preference files first?19:50
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ryanpgwhere can I find an interactive demo of schooltool? Specifically, I'd like to understand how "interventions" work20:34
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ryanpgmenesis, hi, can you tell me how "goals" are tracked in interventions?20:59
menesisryanpg: don't know..21:04
menesisyou add a goal, email is sent to parents and advisors, later you can edit it or mark as "goal met"21:04
menesisinterventions is a newest feature, if something is broken or hard to understand then it's a bug21:07
ryanpgmenesis, but how is progress tracked? like daily, by period, monthly etc. and how?21:11
ryanpgand by who? :)21:12
menesisdon't know, aelkner?21:17
menesisby advisor or teacher I guess21:17
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