IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2009-09-07

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mgedminany recent buildbot breakages, e.g. with coverage report publishing?14:31
yvlnone that I'm aware of14:34
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th1aGood morning yvl, menesis, aelkner, jelkner, moquist.16:32
yvlhi th1a16:32
th1aaelkner: Do you remember what time you're getting into Providence on Thursday?16:32
aelknerlet me check16:33
th1ayvl: How are you doing?16:33
aelknerArrive in PROVIDENCE RI (PVD) at 12:20 PM16:33
th1aaelkner: Ah... ok, you're probably going to have to take a cab to my house, but we can discuss that later.16:34
aelknerno prob16:34
yvlth1a, I'm currently finishing an email on SchoolTool versions16:34
yvl2009.04 will be renamed to 1.016:35
yvlwe'll release several versions of schooltool codebase packages in Karmic16:35
yvlI suggest to rename schooltool-2009 to simply schooltool16:36
yvl(people are *forced* to upgrade, so why not do that automatically with each release)16:36
yvland add schooltool-edge16:36
yvl(as Launchpad edge :)16:37
yvlCanDo will depend on SchoolTool 1.016:37
th1aIn the longer run we can't really force people to upgrade.16:37
th1aThat's why we have schooltool-2009 etc.16:38
yvlwell, we should at least drop support16:38
th1adepends on how you define "support"16:39
yvlwe can have schooltool with SchoolTool 1.2 codebase in Karmic16:39
yvland schooltool with SchoolTool 1.4 codebase in Karmic+116:39
yvlit's not that we support schooltool-2007...16:39
yvlsupport as in "provide bugfixes and keep older releases in newer Ubuntu versions"16:39
th1aThe use case to keep in mind here is that once we have a serious production user base, people won't  want to and shouldn't be upgrading in the middle of the year.16:40
menesisschooltool-2009 is the same as schooltool-2008, just because the year is different. if we instead name them schooltool and schooltool-1.2 then we don't have to do a new package if there are no incompatible changes16:40
yvlwell, we can provide with "points of upgrade" once we have a stable user base16:42
yvlas far as I'm aware, there is no difference between schooltool-2008 and schooltool-200916:42
th1aOK, so we just have "schooltool" ...16:42
th1aThe 2008/2009 thing is misleading because we started implementing our idea at the time for versions before it made sense to.16:43
th1aThat is, there was no reason for anybody to stay at 2008.16:43
th1aIt would have been like staying at beta1 and refusing to upgrade to 1.0.16:43
th1aSo that muddied what we intended.16:44
th1aOK, so we just have schooltool, and we put the new version in the new version of ubuntu, and if you want to upgrade you upgrade your whole system?16:45
yvlwe'll, my short-term goal is to have one thing stable for school deployment, and another for our edge users, that like new features a lot16:45
th1aWell, that's probably most straightforward.16:46
th1aAlso another good reason to recommend using SchoolTool on a virtual machine.16:46
th1aI suppose that makes sense.16:47
yvlwell, if we do some major UI remaking or something like introduction of SchoolYears16:48
yvlwe can always release a schooltool version with a different name and keep it for, say, a year16:48
yvlthen drop the support and release it under "schooltool"16:49
yvlthe timeline would be16:49
yvl"schooltool" -> 1.216:49
yvland "schooltool-1.4" -> 1.416:49
yvlyou are free to chose what you use16:49
yvland then after a year16:49
yvl"schooltool" -> 1.416:49
yvlor something like that16:49
yvlbut I doubt that we will have much problems, at least for a forthcoming year16:50
yvlpeople don't usualy upgrade their servers in a middle of the year, do they?16:50
yvlok then, I'll send the details when I clean them up16:51
th1aI think you've got it right.16:51
yvlto my shame, I didn't finish with security yet :|16:52
th1aGet cracking.16:52
yvlone of the things I looked into (didn't eat too much time)16:52
yvlwas ability to display what access rights are required when you're redirected to the login page16:53
yvland I didn't find a way to make ir reliable16:53
yvlthat totally ruined my day :)16:54
th1aWell, worth a day, probably.16:54
yvlthe best thing we can do16:54
yvlis to show what rights are needed to look at the object the page is bound to16:54
yvlbut some of the redirects happen because *other* objects are modified on the same page16:55
yvland that would confuse the users16:56
th1aWell, it might be useful for debugging to be able to see that.16:56
th1aIs the data accurate, but confusing?16:56
yvlthe confusing part: we see what permissions we need for the object the page is bound to16:57
yvlbut not the permissions that caused the log-in16:57
th1aSo it is accurate but incomplete ;-)16:57
yvlImagine how annoying this can get :)16:57
th1aAnything else yvl?16:58
yvlyou are sure you have all the permissions, and even the login page says so...16:58
yvlone more thing16:58
yvlshould I write an email what more is needed to have schooltool.intervention package?16:58
yvlor comment on Launchpad?16:58
yvlI'll need to check something, it will take 2-3 hours16:59
yvl(I don't have SLA checkout running, etc.)16:59
th1aI believe aelkner needs that info.17:00
th1aHe's got some other changes to make as well.17:00
aelknerwhat do you need exactly17:00
yvlbuild an egg17:01
aelknerwhy do you mention SLA?17:01
aelknerwe don't need an egg for that17:01
aelknerjust for schooltool.intervention17:01
yvland we need to clean up SLA, riht?17:01
yvlto work with shcooltool.intervention17:02
aelkneri thought i already did that17:02
yvlnot in trunk17:02
yvlI think I need to merge that17:02
th1aSLA will only be used at SLA.17:02
aelkneri made a merge request17:02
aelknerdid you get it?17:02
th1a(in case that wasn't clear)17:02
yvlsorry, my email is a bit of a mess now17:03
aelkneri made my own sla branch that cleaned up sla and requested a merge17:03
yvlmaybe I missed it17:03
aelknerlet me check myself17:03
yvl(there are some missing or marked as read emails after moving mail to another server here at POV)17:04
yvlth1a, will schooltool.intervention ship with SchoolTool 1.2?17:04
th1aThat is my intention.17:05
th1aThat's the goal.17:05
aelkneris ready for review for merging17:05
aelknerto sla trunk of course17:05
yvldamn, I missed it17:05
yvlsorry, aelkner17:05
aelknerno prob17:05
yvlso, we need to build an egg17:06
aelknernot for sla17:06
yvlno, for schooltool.intervention17:06
yvland add dependency on it in... umm... schooltool.gradebook?17:06
yvlor schooltool.stapp2008fall ?17:07
aelkneri don't know about that one17:07
aelknerisn't schooltool.gradebook enough?17:07
yvlwell, it depends17:07
yvlis schooltool.intervention absolutely necessary for schooltool.gradebook to work?17:08
yvlif yes -> schooltool.gradebook17:08
aelknerdefinely not17:08
yvlif no -> schooltool.stapp2008fall17:08
aelknerschooltool.gradebook is absolutely necessary for schooltool.interfention to work17:08
aelknerthat's the dependency17:09
aelkneri thought that's what you meant above17:09
yvlok, so I'll add the dependency in schooltool.intervention package then17:09
yvland schooltool.stapp2008fall17:09
yvlthanks, aelkner17:10
aelknerwhy the second?17:10
yvlI know what to do now17:10
aelkneri don't understand why you mention stapp2008fall17:10
yvlso that it gets included in SchoolTool Karmic release17:10
menesisschooltool.intervention package is created and the egg made, in releases/nightly17:10
menesisa few weeks ago17:10
menesisthe dependecy on intervention has to be added to SLA but that's done in the branch I suppose17:11
yvlstill TBD, as far as I know?17:11
yvl(schooltool.intervention buildbot)17:11
aelknersla is dependent on schooltool.intervention and17:12
aelknerschooltool.intervention is dependent on schooltool.gradebook17:12
aelkneras for the stapp2008fall part, i don't know what you do with that17:13
aelkneri would think that is not dependent on any of those other packages17:13
yvlumm, we will need stapp2008fall to depend on schooltool.intervention17:13
yvlas it is the "installable server" thingy17:14
yvlthat is also dependent on schooltool.lyceum.journal and schooltool.gradebook17:14
yvlso that the users get everything17:14
aelknerwell, you guys know what the packaging requirements are17:15
th1aDoes that make sense, aelkner?17:15
menesisyvl: intervention is also in buildbot (pov-schooltool_trunk-buildout)17:15
yvlumm, not ?17:16
aelkneri don't know the details of what goes on in the packaging area17:16
aelkneror the buildbot17:16
th1astapp... is dependent on everything that is included in a standard installation.17:16
aelknerso that includes schooltool.intervention now, right?17:16
th1aThat's the point.17:17
yvlno, and we'll fix it :)17:17
aelknerwell then i guess it makes sense17:17
aelknerby now, i meant when you fix it, that was inplied :)17:17
th1aMoving on then?17:17
th1aOK, more project management and translation reorganization then...17:18
th1amenesis:  Did you see replaceafill's spanish diff for the website?17:18
menesisth1a: yes..17:19
th1aDo you know how to do different translations on Apache?17:19
menesisnot really, but something like name the file and enable some option17:20
th1aYes.  Something like that.17:20
* th1a waves his hands.17:21
th1aCould you have a shot at that?17:21
th1aThank you.17:21
th1aPerhaps we can stick links to the different translations in the red bar or something.17:21
th1aI'll think about it after we get it working.17:22
th1amenesis is recommending splitting the major packages in SchoolTool into their own projects.17:22
th1aI'd say this would also require us to turn "SchoolTool" into a Launchpad "super project."17:23
menesisin launchpad17:23
th1aOr make a "The SchoolTool Project."17:23
th1aYes... this is all just in terms of Launchpad.17:23
th1aI'd rather not complexify things in this way... particularly the bug tracking aspect makes me cringe.17:24
th1aBut, it clarifies how we manage translations, apparently.17:24
th1amenesis: Care to elaborate?17:24
menesistranslations is one problem. we could merge all translations is another solution17:25
menesisthe other is Code17:25
menesisour branches are named like lp:~schooltool-owners/schooltool/schooltool.gradebook-0.417:26
menesisthe last part has to be invented17:26
menesiswhat I want is to host all code on launchpad17:26
menesisand have clear urls17:26
menesisfor this we need a schooltool.gradebook project on launchpad17:27
menesisand then a "Project Group"17:27
menesisI don't think we can use for that17:28
th1aIf we can solve our short term translation problem by merging the translations, I'd rather do that now.17:28
menesisso we create a
menesisand add all subprojects to it17:28
th1aI'm afraid complexifying our Launchpad site will cut down on useful user feedback, which would be very bad.17:29
menesisit is easy to overview all bugs and code17:29
menesisbecause the umbrella project aggregates everything from subprojects17:29
menesissee vs.
th1aOK.  I guess it is not so bad.17:30
th1aWell, I guess we can do the super/sub project route.17:31
menesisso it's not much more complexity. users may not know which project is responsible for the bug they see... they report to schooltool but for us it's easy to change the project to schooltool.gradebook when we triage the bugs17:32
th1aSo I need to request a super-project.17:32
th1aAny other concerns about this?17:34
th1aOK.  I'll let you know when the super-project goes through.17:34
menesisth1a: yes, that can only be done by request: groups17:35
th1aOK... string freeze.17:35
th1aWe should do this.17:35
th1aOctober 2?17:36
th1aI like 9.17:36
yvlno objections? :)17:38
th1a9 it is.17:38
th1aSo we need to prioritize bugs that change strings somewhat.17:39
th1aAlso, yvl, if you could take care of the "self - contact" bug sooner, that would help aelkner.17:39
aelkneroh yes, it wold17:40
th1aOK... aelkner: anything in particular to add?17:40
aelknerto what?17:40
th1aTo this meeting?17:41
aelknerthe discussion about translations?17:41
th1aIn general.17:41
aelkneri could report my last week :)17:41
aelknerok then17:41
aelkneri lost a couple of days to a cold that both my girlfriend and i started feelign around tuesday17:42
aelknermust have caught it together on sunday17:42
aelkneranyway, i started down that dreaded smtp path again17:42
aelknerfirst trying to use gmail as smtp server17:42
aelknerthat didn't work17:42
th1aaelkner you have to talk to us when you're trying to do this shit.17:43
aelkneri'm talking now17:43
th1aWell, we're here all week.17:43
aelknerfair enough17:44
aelknerbut i needed to do some research on my own before asking someone else to look at it17:44
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aelknerit would be great if we had a test smtp server running somewhere17:45
aelkneri tried again to install postfix to my machine, but the config is just too complicated for me to grasp17:45
th1aMaybe I should just take this off your hands.17:45
aelknerthat would be SO great17:46
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aelkneri just need an smtp server to talk to17:46
th1aOK, replaceafill, it is your job now.17:46
th1aJust in time.17:46
replaceafillgood morning everybody17:46
aelknerah replaceafill17:46
jelknerreplaceafill: good morning man17:46
th1ayou're in charge of smtp.17:46
th1aaelkner, work on something else this week.17:46
aelkneri did ask replaceafill for help this weekend17:46
th1aI have to go babysit.17:46
th1areplaceafill: I'll fill you in later.17:46
replaceafillth1a, cool17:46
aelknerbefore you go, wait17:47
aelknerth1a: i was saying17:47
replaceafillsorry im late, i took my girlfriend to the doc17:47
th1ano problemo.17:47
th1a(that's spanish)17:47
aelkneri asked replaceafill if he knew how to set up an smtp server, or if he could set up one for me17:47
aelknerwe were discussing it, and he got called away to a meeting17:48
aelkneri got a hold of chris alfano17:48
aelknerand he was able to add me as a user to sla's email server17:48
aelknerthat allowed me to get it to work talking to their server from my machine17:48
aelknerthat was great news for me17:48
aelknerbut in the long run, i'd prefer not to have to use sla's smtp server for testing17:49
aelknerth1a: if you could authorize replaceafill working on setting one up for us, that would be great17:49
th1aDId you actually get any code written?17:49
aelknerlet me get to that17:49
aelknerbut what about my question17:49
aelkneror could you set one up for us?17:50
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th1aWe need to get this working with gmail.17:50
th1aOr somebody has to explain to me why it won't work with gmail.17:50
aelkneri can't explain it, i only know that the error:17:51
aelknerraise SMTPException("SMTP AUTH extension not supported by server.")17:51
th1aWhat's the status of the code?17:51
aelknerso i added the email setting to the application preferences17:51
th1aI really should have taken this off your hands earlier.  It is my fault.17:52
th1aOK.  Fill in replaceafill on where that code is.17:52
th1aPush it to a branch.17:52
aelknerok, will do, but i would like to work with replaceafill on this if you don't mind17:53
* th1a just needs to keep aelkner focused on things he's good at.17:54
aelknertrue enough, but i did get email to work at sla17:54
aelknerso i thought i could give it a shot17:54
aelkneri have experience graping with the complexities of quesed mail delivery17:54
th1aYeah, but it inevitably is a big time sink.17:55
aelknerit has been17:55
th1aI can give it back to you once we get smtp working.17:55
aelknerbut if replaceafill is going to work on it, i should share with hoim what i learned17:55
th1aOK, do you guys have time to do that now?17:56
th1areplaceafill: Can you get postfix or sendmail running locally?17:56
th1aSo test against that and then try to figure out how to get SchoolTool sending mail through gmail.17:57
yvlbtw, why gmail?17:59
aelknergood question17:59
yvl(no need to answer if that starts a flamewar or something)17:59
th1aWell, that's just an arbitrary free smtp service.17:59
aelknersee, the advantage of having our own smtp server is we can control the user ids18:00
th1aPresumably it will also work on other smtp servers.  The only catch is probably the auth doo hickey.18:00
aelknerwe need to be able to send mail from manager@ourserver.org18:00
th1aaelkner: I don't really want to deal with that now.18:01
aelkneri don't see having available to us18:01
th1aIt doesn't really matter.18:01
th1aJust getting a local test server running is easy.18:02
th1aRunning public mail servers is a pain.18:02
th1aI don't want to run a public mail server for testing.18:03
aelknerwhy wouldn't we?18:03
th1aIt is a pain!18:03
aelkneras long as we force authoriation18:03
th1aI have to go.18:03
* yvl seconds18:03
yvl(on the "No" part)18:04
yvlbag of gravel, th1a?18:04
th1aaelkner & replaceafill:  Talk amongst yourselves.18:04
th1aHave a great week!18:04
aelkneri'm feeling verklempt :)18:04
aelknergreat week, th1a18:04
aelknersee you soon18:04
th1aaelkner: talk to you tomorrow probably.18:04
yvlgood week to you all :)18:04
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.18:04
aelknerreplaceafill: could you please take a look at schooltool.intervention?18:05
replaceafillok, will go branch now18:05
aelknerafter you've branched, take a look at schooltool/intervention/configure.zcml18:06
aelkneri have some intentionally commented out zcml directives there18:06
replaceafillaelkner, your august_fixes branch or the schooltool-owners branch?18:07
aelknerthey are merged, so go for the owners one18:07
aelkneryou are not going to need to change schooltool.intervention18:08
aelknerthat will be my job after you've gotten schooltool email to work18:08
aelknerbut to see what i have done, it will be important to look at it18:09
aelknerlet me know when you have that file open18:09
replaceafillso, what's my job here?18:09
aelknerget schooltool to deliver email18:10
aelkneranyway, you have the file open?18:11
replaceafillstill branching18:11
menesiswhy do you want to send email through gmail?18:14
aelknerit's not me who wants to18:14
menesisyou just need to install postfix18:14
aelknerthat's what replaceafill is gong to work on18:14
aelknerthe whole gmail thing was th1a wanting to not have our own server18:15
yvlwhy do we need our own server?18:15
menesisand answer to one of the questions "internet site" i think.18:15
menesisthe zope.sendmail will use it to send out email18:15
ignasyvl: don't you have one on your laptop?18:15
aelkneryvl: if schooltool is going to support sending email18:15
ignasyou want to use postfix for sending email, reallt18:16
ignasand no, it won't be "public"18:16
aelknerwe need a set of email inboxes18:16
ignasonly users of your machine will be able to use it i think18:16
aelknerso that we can send email to seomwhere18:16
ignasyou want to "receive" email?18:16
aelknerand confrm that it got there18:16
th1aIt is because I want people who don't have public servers to be able to send mail.18:16
ignasas in - you want schooltool to get email?18:16
aelknerignas: of course18:16
ignasthat is not a usecase for a "laptop"18:17
th1aAnd I want to have a "how to send emails from schooltool via gmail" howto.18:17
ignasor for a "testing machine"18:17
ignasit's for "i have this linux server with a domain"18:17
* th1a goes back to babysitting.18:17
ignasor at least with postfix configured18:17
ignasso that it would *pull* emails from gmail for example and "push" them to schooltool18:17
ignasbut still postfix is the solution i'd say18:18
ignashaving just recently implelented a friggin mailing list from scratch18:18
algaIn general, if you want your server to send emails, you have to have outgoing email set up on your server.  Simples.18:19
menesisbut this is still configuration of postfix. it just relays through gmail.18:20
ignasand if you want to receive email in a web app - you must have something pull email from pop/imap server/mailbox and post it to your application18:21
ignaspostfix for example18:21
ignasso yeah, i guess it should be possible to use gmail to allow people configure schooltool + actual email on their laptops18:21
ignasif they have a gmail account18:21
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ignasor on their PC's that have no domain names18:22
aelkner_sorry, i got dropped18:22
replaceafillaelkner_, done18:22
replaceafillconfigure.zcml open18:22
aelkner_so there was this discussion about why we need an email server18:22
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aelkner_i don't understand why people keep talking about using an smtp server to send mail18:23
aelkner_i would think a server would receive mail18:23
aelkner_i mail a school has it's own email server18:23
aelkner_with inboxes for each user18:23
aelkner_i want a send an email from schooltool having from address user1@myschool.org18:24
aelkner_and to adressses and user3@myschool.org18:24
aelkner_so schooltool does the sending18:24
aelkner_and does the receiving18:25
aelkner_seems like standard client/server relationship18:25
aelkner_yet everywhere i go on google18:25
Lumierethe easiest thing to do is18:25
aelkner_i find pages that talk about using an smtp server to SEND mail18:25
Lumierenot back-port18:25
aelkner_not receive it18:25
aelkner_what's with that?18:25
Lumierefor upgrades18:25
Lumiere(hi all) :)18:26
* Lumiere looks at th1a 18:26
aelkner_any thoughts on my discussion thread?18:26
ignasaelkner: well lot's of reasons really18:26
ignasaelkner: first of all - reliability18:26
ignasaelkner: if is down18:26
ignasaelkner: at this very moment, the right thing to do is - wait for an hour and try again18:27
ignasaelkner: so if you want to send emails "directly to them"18:27
ignasaelkner: you must implement a whole bunch of failovers, intermediate storage and so on18:27
aelkner_ignas: i've been using queued mail delivery18:27
aelkner_but that's another issue18:27
aelkner_the email stays on the schooltool server18:27
aelkner_until the target smtp server comes back up18:28
ignasaelkner: so most of the applications in the world, like evolution, outlook, etc. just choose the simpler way of letting postfix which is one of the most robust and correct email servers do the job18:28
ignasaelkner: but you would be poorly reimplementing something that a bunch of programmers already implemented18:28
aelkner_zope did the queued mail delivery utility, not i18:29
aelkner_this is all in production at sla18:29
ignasi think zope is using sendmail to do that, is it not?18:29
ignasyou sure queued mail delivery utility is doing the actual direct sending itself?18:30
aelkner_zope has a queue directory18:30
aelkner_it tries to send the email to the smtp server18:30
ignasmgedmin: ^ can you tell me that it's true?18:30
aelkner_and if it fails, it just tries again until it succeeds18:30
mgedminsort of18:30
ignasto the "destination" smtp server you mean?18:30
mgedminthe queued delivery thing used to be pretty stoopid18:30
mgedminlike looping FOREVER every 5 seconds if the email is not valid18:31
mgedminwell, more like retrying, not looping18:31
mgedminlooping would imply it stopped processing other emails, which it didn't18:31
aelkner_here's the zcml for SLA:18:31
aelkner_  <include package="zope.sendmail" file="meta.zcml" />18:31
aelkner_  <mail:smtpMailer18:31
aelkner_      name="intervention"18:31
aelkner_      hostname=""18:31
aelkner_      port="25"18:31
aelkner_      username="aelkner"18:31
aelkner_      password="aelkner"18:31
mgedminupdated zope.sendmail may be somewhat smarter18:31
aelkner_      />18:31
aelkner_  <mail:queuedDelivery18:31
aelkner_      name="intervention"18:31
aelkner_      permission="schooltool.edit"18:31
Lumieredon't paste to channel18:31
aelkner_      queuePath="mail-queue"18:31
aelkner_      mailer="intervention"18:31
mgedminbut still it's a dumb delivery to a relay host18:31
aelkner_      />18:31
aelkner_note the two utilities18:31
mgedminyou need a relay host18:32
aelkner_one for the queue18:32 2518:32
aelkner_and one for the actual smtp host18:32
ignasaelkner who is running *that* server?18:32
Lumierelisppaste5: url18:32
lisppaste5To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.18:32
ignasso yeah, you don't have to run your own mail server, if someone else does18:33
ignasrun it for you18:33
ignasin this case - the administrator of mail.scienceleadership.org18:33
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aelkner_for some reason FreeNode says i quit18:34
aelkner_does anyone see my message here?18:34
replaceafilli do18:35
aelkner_ok, thanks18:35
ignasaelkner quit aelkner_ is still here18:35
aelkner_got it, thanks18:35
Lumiereyou had a ghost haunting you18:36
aelkner_so i've always assumed that if you have a school, you'd want to set up a mail server18:36
aelkner_so that teachers, students can send mail to each other18:36
aelkner_that would be an smtp server18:36
ignasaelkner_: and I assumed that most schools don't have any full time network admins18:37
ignasand the ones they have are pretty busy18:37
aelkner_so what do they do about email?\18:37
ignasthey use personal accounts18:37
jelknerthey pay someone18:37
aelkner_so schooltool would need to send an email from to user2@his?18:38
jelkneraps does *not* provide students with email accounts18:38
Lumiereand never will18:38
Lumiereby policy18:38
jelknerand if we don't, you can bet most other systems don't either18:38
Lumierethe only one I know of that does18:39
Lumiereis TJHSST18:39
jelknerwell, Lumiere, never is a long time18:39
jelknerNVCC does18:39
LumiereNVCC is not a HS18:39
jelknerand with GCTAA, we are part of NVCC18:39
Lumiereit is a college18:39
jelkneryes, but our students will get email through NVCC18:39
Lumierejelkner: your college students have accounts18:39
Lumierebut not your HS only18:39
jelkneranyway, the line is beginning to blur18:39
jelknerother high schools will want what we have, etc.18:40
aelkner_ok, well, I guess I've been making false assumption, perhaps the business experience giving me false expectations again18:40
Lumierejelkner: the point is 'assume students will use personal accounts'18:40
Lumiereeven if they have an nvcc account18:40
Lumiereassume they won't want stuff going to it18:40
aelkner_but schooltool still need to commuicate with SOME smtp server18:40
aelkner_iit needs to talk smtp to deliver email18:41
aelkner_even if teh from an to addresses are arbitrary18:41
Lumiereaelkner_: that is not your problem18:41
jelknerso th1a suggestion to use gmail is a good one18:41
jelknerif possible18:41
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Lumiereaelkner_: the sysadmin needs to setup email service18:41
jelknersince you do not want to add to the requirements of schools using ST18:41
aelkner_Lumiere: you mean an smtp server, right?18:41
Lumierein such a way that the application will have outbound at all times18:41
Lumiereaelkner_: either on system or off18:42
Lumierebut yea18:42
Lumieremy setup is always18:42
Lumiereoutbound only smtp on every server sending mail18:42
Lumiererelaying to the main email server for the network18:42
Lumierethat way postfix (or exim /whatever)18:42
Lumierehandles queue or mail sending failures18:43
Lumierenot my apps18:43
jelknerbut that means a custom config for each school18:43
jelknerit would be better if we had a known way that could work for any school18:43
jelknerit would greatly simplify documentation18:43
Lumiereemail is not something that just works18:43
aelkner_well, it's clear that each school can set up as many smtp servers it wants18:43
jelknergmail, just works18:43
aelkner_but schooltool needs to talk to just one18:43
Lumierewrite documentation for sending through gmail is fine18:44
Lumierebut it should not be automagically configured18:44
Lumiereto do anything18:44
ignasLumiere: hmm, problem with Gmail is18:44
ignasgmail can only send email a s"you"18:44
Lumiereignas: yes18:44
ignasso if you only need one "from" address18:44
ignasyep - it will work18:44
aelkner_but that it not sufficient18:44
ignasbut you will have to use your personal address18:44
aelkner_forget gmail, it won't do what we want18:45
Lumiereemail is a sysadmin task18:45
Lumierenot a programmer task18:45
aelkner_Lumiere: i understand18:45
Lumiereyou write a documented zcml file18:45
aelkner_but there is a programatic element18:45
Lumierenot really18:45
Lumiereyou write what is needed18:45
Lumiereand someone else does the work to make it work18:45
Lumieredocument the zcml file18:46
ignaswell - having "localhost"18:46
aelkner_we need to talk to an smtp host, port, user, password18:46
ignasfor outbound email server default18:46
ignasshould work in most of the "we have a properly configured email server already" cases18:46
Lumiereaelkner_: you need to be able to ignore if it isn't configured properly18:46
aelkner_we would need to log undeliverale email18:46
Lumiereaelkner_: no18:47
Lumierethat's the mail servers job18:47
aelkner_but we need a mail server18:47
aelkner_if it is to be the job of the mail server, we need one18:47
th1a_You guys seem to be making this task much more complicated than I see it.18:47
Lumiereaelkner_: you don't need anything18:47
Lumiereif mail isn't configured18:47
Lumiereschooltool should not attempt to send mail18:48
th1a_SchoolTool needs to be a SMTP client, send out reminders, which can be from any reasonably named mail account on any handy server.18:48
Lumiereand it shouldn't log that it isn't attempting to send mail18:48
Lumiereth1a_: aelkner's requirements are beyond that18:48
Lumierehe sends as spoof18:48
Lumiereit seems18:48
th1a_Spoofing user addresses?18:49
aelkner_has anyone else ever used zope.sendmail?18:49
aelkner_no spoofing18:49
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aelkner_i got it straight from Phillip's book18:49
aelkner_you use two utilities18:49
ignasth1a: if you need reminders from, and you can live with the fact that they will all be comming from (in case you configured it for yourself)18:49
ignasth1a: it is possible to do that18:49
aelkner_1) a queued mail delivery utility18:50
aelkner_2) a direct mail delivery18:50
aelkner_the first one talkes to the second18:50
ignasaelkner_: that's the code side, it does not suddenly make the "sys admin" side good or nice or working18:50
aelkner_and handles the case where the second one is down18:50
aelkner_i understand18:50
ignasor correct18:50
Lumiereaelkner_: 1 should be handled by the local smtp service18:50
aelkner_i was just explaining the code side because noone was recognizing its existence18:51
Lumiereaelkner_: we heard18:51
aelkner_Lumiere: that's not how zope.sendmail works18:51
Lumiereaelkner_: we're saying zope shouldn't be doing it18:51
* Lumiere gives up and goes back to his holiday ,-,18:51
aelkner_replaceafill: do you see how the utilities are being used in schooltool.intervention?18:52
replaceafillaelkner_, yep18:52
aelkner_so are you the only one who follows what i'm saying?18:52
aelkner_is that a yes?18:52
aelkner_ok, good18:53
aelkner_so the point is, schooltool needs to talk to the queued mail delivery utility18:53
th1a_There has to be a mail queue, because if schooltool tries to send a message and the SMTP server is down, it has to try again.18:53
th1a_OK then.18:53
aelkner_here's the tricky part18:53
aelkner_as you can see from my zcml for SLA18:54
aelkner_i configure the direct mail delivery part in the zcml18:54
aelkner_which is hard-coding18:54
aelkner_we would need to be more clever if we are to allow the admin user to change the smtp server settings18:54
replaceafilllike in a UI for instance18:55
aelkner_unless we force them to do a restart of schooltool18:55
Lumiereit should not be a UI feature18:55
aelkner_replaceafill: sorry, you're not up to date18:55
Lumiereit shouldn't be configured by a web user18:55
aelkner_Lumiere: exactly the opposite is the case18:55
Lumiereand I've never seen an app that uses queued mail in app18:56
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th1a_No, it is perfectly reasonable to allow the manager to set the outgoing server.18:56
aelkner_th1a_: tell him that you requested the smtp setting to be in the site preferences please18:56
th1a_Lumiere:  I don't see how this is any different than, how, I don't know, Sunbird would do it.18:56
th1a_Any client has a queue of messages it is waiting to send while offline.18:57
th1a_That's all we're talking about.18:57
Lumiereth1a_: the difference is that sunbird you're following your ISP's directions and your smtp server is external18:57
th1a_Yes, that's the case here.18:57
LumiereI disagree18:57
Lumiere99.9% of schooltool installations will have a system administrator to configure smtp18:57
Lumierejust like they configure apache18:58
Lumiereand the port it runs on18:58
Lumiereand that smtp server will almost always be 'close'18:58
Lumiereon lan or on the server itself18:58
th1a_Not necessarily.18:58
Lumiereth1a_: name any installation at this point where that isn't the case?18:59
Lumierecando's is on server18:59
Lumieresla is on lan18:59
th1a_Well, I'm not thinking only about current users.18:59
LumiereI am thinking enterprise architecture18:59
th1a_SchoolTool's growth will not come among schools with established enterprise architecture.19:00
Lumiereth1a_: yes, but it will be on a linux box19:00
Lumiereuse postfix on box19:00
Lumierethat will never go down19:00
th1a_Look, I don't see the problem with making this through the web configurable.19:01
LumiereI'll live with that19:01
LumiereI am saying queueing shouldn't be handled by zope19:01
th1a_What if the mailserver is down?19:02
Lumierethen you didn't setup your system right19:02
th1a_Well, that's not the right answer.19:02
Lumiereit is still not zope's issue19:02
aelkner_servers go down19:02
th1a_Of course it is.19:02
th1a_If it tries to send a mail and it fails, it has to remember.19:02
th1a_That's not debatable.19:02
Lumierethat isn't queueing19:02
th1a_You can call it whatever you want.19:03
aelkner_it's queueing19:03
Lumierefine... do whatever19:03
LumiereI am gonna pull it out19:03
Lumiereat my locations19:03
Lumiereit's yet another point of failure19:03
th1a_It is a list of emails that have not been yet sent to the SMPT server.19:03
Lumierethat *I* have to deal with19:03
aelkner_schooltool should deal with them19:04
Lumierewho does welsh call when email stops flowing19:04
aelkner_we will need a view for showing stuck emails19:04
Lumieretherefore I have to deal with it19:04
* Lumiere closes irc19:04
aelkner_replaceafill: how are you doing?19:05
th1a_Either the mail will go in a queue or it will disappear.  Are there any other choices?19:05
replaceafillaelkner_, listening19:05
replaceafilli mean reading19:05
aelkner_thank you th1a_19:05
aelkner_so we agree19:05
aelkner_replaceafill: getting back to what i did with SLA19:05
th1a_I think "mail queue" means something to Lumiere that it doesn't mean to us.19:06
aelkner_i agree19:06
aelkner_that has to be the cause of the confusion19:06
aelkner_he's thinking sysadmin mail queue19:06
aelkner_we're talking schooltool mail queue19:06
replaceafillth1a, for the record, from zope.sendmail README.txt: If the delivery utility is a ``IQueuedMailDelivery``, it puts the19:06
replaceafillmessage into a queue (a Maildir mailbox in the file system). A19:06
replaceafillseparate process or thread (``IMailQueueProcessor``) watches the queue19:06
replaceafilland delivers messages asynchronously. Since the queue is located in19:06
replaceafillthe file system, it survives Zope restarts or crashes and the mail is19:06
replaceafillnot lost.  The queue processor can implement batching to keep the19:06
replaceafillserver load low.19:06
replaceafillsorry for the flooding19:06
aelkner_no problem, that's helpful19:07
th1a_Is there some dispute about what the outgoing accounts need to be?19:07
aelkner_th1a_: sorry for my ignorance before about having to have a school mail server19:07
aelkner_that's from my business expereince19:08
aelkner_i always assumed that a school would provide its users email accounts19:08
aelkner_as SLA does19:08
aelkner_but clearly that's not always going to be the case19:08
aelkner_nor does it need to be19:08
replaceafillnot in El Salvador ;)19:08
aelkner_i got used to thinking that way also partly because SLA does what i expected19:09
aelkner_anyway forget about my false assumptions19:09
aelkner_i'm clear on it now19:09
aelkner_we definely need that self contact setting19:09
aelkner_and it can be anyone's personal email account19:09
aelkner_the school still needs to tell schooltool what smtp server to use19:10
aelkner_and we will use queued delivery to handle down times19:10
aelkner_that uses the file system19:10
aelkner_the only down-side is that stuck email is hidden from the schooltool ui19:11
ignasLumiere: by the way, and off topic question - how do you inspect an email that is in the queue?19:11
aelkner_we would want to create a view that scans the queue for stuck email19:11
Lumiereignas: if it is in postfix I just mailq19:11
replaceafillignas, in postfix?19:11
ignasLumiere: yeah mailq, but what parameters?19:11
ignasto display a message19:12
ignaswith full contents19:12
replaceafillgood question :)19:12
Lumiereiirc it is like mail19:12
aelkner_as opposed to hate mail19:12
aelkner_sorry :)19:12
Lumiereit opens a term19:13
Lumiereand you type commands19:13
Lumierebut my mail servers don't *fail*19:13
aelkner_Lumiere: if the power goes down19:13
aelkner_then the server is down19:13
Lumiereand if that server is down19:14
aelkner_i've been at aps when the server power went down19:14
Lumiereschooltool is down19:14
Lumieresoooo what;s the issue19:14
aelkner_if schooltool is on a different network then the smtp server19:14
Lumiereit *never* is for me19:14
aelkner_well, that's just you19:14
aelkner_that cant' be a schooltool requirement19:14
Lumiereevery system admin19:15
LumiereI've ever seen19:15
Lumierehas a mail server19:15
Lumiereon the internal network minimally19:15
Lumiereor on the same server19:15
aelkner_i think th1a_ would agree that we can't make that a requirement19:16
aelkner_replaceafill: shall we continue our discussion intermixed with the rest of the traffic?19:16
ignasif you want to send email using any other From but your google mail address or your personal address - you need a mail server19:16
Lumierejust let me turn off19:17
Lumierethe pieces I don't want19:17
ignasif you want to receive emails or at least handle bounces19:17
replaceafillaelkner_, sure19:17
ignason schooltool side - you need a server19:17
aelkner_replaceafill: so you see how the two utilities are hard-coded as zcml19:17
ignasbut i think19:17
ignasit is possible to have the "small setup"19:17
replaceafillaelkner_, yep19:17
ignaswhere schooltool pretends to be you19:17
aelkner_replaceafill: changing which smtp server you want is (in schooltool.intervention) a matter of changing zcml and restarting the server19:18
replaceafillaelkner_, yes19:18
aelkner_replaceafill: but we don't want that in our general schooltool solution19:18
aelkner_so you'll need to did down into zope.sendmail and figure out how to use a dynamic utility instead19:19
aelkner_i started thinking about his last week19:19
aelkner_but i haven't been able to come up with a game plan yet19:19
aelkner_i pushed a branch up with some code changes19:20
aelkner_you'll see there that I started writing an EmailUtility19:20
aelkner_that receives the email in question in the send method19:20
aelkner_it's just a stub19:21
* Lumiere notes that email should be menesis's issue19:21
aelkner_it has an insufficient hard-coded call to get the IMailDelivery utility19:22
aelkner_using name, "intervention"19:22
aelkner_that won't do of course19:22
aelkner_i think we can hard-code the IMailDelivery zcml to use the queued mail directive19:23
aelkner_but the smtpMailer directive needs to be replaced by a dynamic utility19:23
aelkner_that gets persisted to the site manager19:24
aelkner_and that utility needs to use the site preferences to send the email to the right smtp host19:24
aelkner_does that make sense so far19:25
replaceafillyes i understand, i only have one question19:25
replaceafilli remember you talk to gmail in a specific way when you want it to be your smtp server19:26
replaceafilllook at this example:19:26
replaceafillmailServer = smtplib.SMTP('',587)19:26
replaceafillmailServer.login(smtpuser, smtppass)19:26
aelkner_port 587?19:26
aelkner_maybe that's why i couldn't get it to work19:27
aelkner_i was using port 2519:27
aelkner_and i didn't see anything about port 58719:27
Lumiereif you're pasting over 3 lines19:27
Lumiereuse lisppaste pls19:27
aelkner_but anyway, gmail won't work for us19:27
replaceafillsorry Lumiere my bad19:27
menesisyou need SSL authentication to talk to gmail smtp19:27
aelkner_Lumiere: that's a bit stingent19:27
ignasit's a secure smtp server I think19:27
mgedminno, it's smtp submission port19:27
aelkner_10 or so lines of code are better in the channel19:27
Lumiereaelkner_: that's standard irc19:27
aelkner_than forcing comeone to click and look at another screen19:28
mgedminRFC 440919:28
aelkner_in my opinion19:28
aelkner_if it gets to be 100 lines, i understand using paste19:28
Lumiereaelkner_: freenode standard policy is 319:28
aelkner_that's lame19:28
aelkner_what's the big harm in what replaceafill just pated19:28
aelkner_it's no more verbose than our discussions19:28
aelkner_replaceafill: gmail doesn't work for our purposes19:29
menesisI do not understand a point of this 3 hour discussion..19:29
aelkner_it changes the from address19:29
aelkner_which is NOT acceptable19:29
aelkner_menesis: i don't think anyone understand the point of three hours of discussion19:30
aelkner_but it happens as a result of so many different points of view19:30
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th1aMy experience has been that a mail server is not the kind of thing you want to run if you don't understand it.20:19
th1aAnd they are hard to understand.20:20
mgedminused to be, when you got a connection from your ISP, you got a whole bunch of settings to enter into your PC, and among them an SMTP server address20:20
mgedmindon't know how that works now20:21
th1aPeople use GMail.  ;-)20:21
th1aOr FaceBook.20:21
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replaceafillth1a, do you mind to elaborate in the Gmail bug? is something like what you're looking for?20:26
th1aI'd much rather have people who don't know what they're doing sending mails through a free mail service than running their own postfix.20:27
th1aIf they're running postfix we have to support that.20:27
jelknerplease listen to th1a on this one, everyone, he knows what he is talking about! ;-)20:28
th1aIt shouldn't be any different than any other SMTP.20:28
th1aThe one catch is sending emails with the FROM appearing to be from the correct person.20:28
th1aProbably we can just make this an option.20:29
th1aIf you don't want to run your own mailserver, you probably won't mind if all the messages come through your_school_messages@gmail.com20:30
th1aIf you do mind, run your own damn server!20:30
th1aAlso, regarding the discussion above -- the default mailserver should be "none."20:32
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th1areplaceafill: Is all this making any sense to you?20:40
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replaceafillth1a, most of it, yes20:42
replaceafillth1a, at the end we're going to use UI preferences to specify this parameters, right?20:42
replaceafilleven some dont agree :D20:43
th1aYes... unless it turns out to be very difficult to do so technically.20:43
th1aI guess it is more involved than I realized.20:43
jelknerLumiere: how do we get replaceafill admin access to our ST instance?21:27
Lumierejelkner: ask welsh21:27
jelknerdoes welsh know how to do that?21:27
* Lumiere is not happy right now21:27
jelknerhe will just ask you, right?21:27
Lumierelook above21:27
Lumiereanyways... if you mean root on the server21:28
Lumierethe answer is no21:28
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replaceafillaelkner_, you around?22:52
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jelknerth1a: are you here?23:13
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