IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2009-06-04

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th1aHi replaceafill.19:49
replaceafillhi th1a19:49
replaceafillsaw your mail19:49
replaceafilland matt contacted me yesterday19:49
th1areplaceafill: I sent you a link to the requirements document on Google Docs.19:54
replaceafillreading it...19:55
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replaceafillth1a, wow19:59
replaceafillth1a, lots of new things :)19:59
th1aWell... nothing too hard.19:59
th1aI need to see how much money they have...19:59
th1aBut a lot of things are essentially just a new data object attached to a person or school.20:00
th1aWithout a lot of logic needed.20:00
Lumierereplaceafill: where did you commit from yesterday?20:03
Lumiereerr 6/220:03
Lumierethere is a commit that is attributed to me, but I really doubt it was me20:03
replaceafilli didnt commit yesterday20:03
replaceafillis in my new branch?20:04
replaceafillor trunk?20:04
replaceafillr1587 | jstraw | 2009-06-01 23:30:53 -0600 (lun 01 de jun de 2009) | 1 line20:05
replaceafillFixed the header of a column in the All Competencies Completion Report and made the color coding legend shorter20:05
replaceafillah yes, that's mine20:05
LumiereI am wondering how it happened20:05
replaceafillsorry, i couldnt connect from home to svn.schooltool.org20:05
Lumiereah :)20:05
Lumierewhere did I save my password20:05
replaceafilli logged in to the cando server and applied my patch and push the changes20:06
replaceafillbut i didnt check it was your user!20:06
LumiereI'll figure it out later20:06
replaceafillcause i did the checkout!20:06
th1areplaceafill: I think I can boil this down to a specific set of tasks.20:07
th1aDo you want to take a stab at estimating development time?20:08
th1a(after I summarize it)?20:09
th1aThat is, do you want to do an informal quote for them?20:09
replaceafillof course20:09
replaceafilli'm jobless now :( so i'm free for some work20:10
th1aI also have no idea at this point when they'll know about the grant or when the work will be due.  I sent an email asking about that this morning.20:10
th1aAh... are you involuntarily jobless?20:10
replaceafill50-50 :/20:10
replaceafilli didnt like the job much20:10
replaceafilland they didnt have much money20:11
th1aWell, there are SchoolTool opportunities coming in now...20:11
replaceafillcrossing my fingers for them :)20:11
th1aI need to write a "This Week in SchoolTool" post because a number of interesting things came in this week.20:11
th1areplaceafill: Just forwarded something else to you.20:12
th1aForwarded a few more emails about the SA contact.20:15
replaceafillth1a, is schooltool used in europe?20:16
th1aNot yet.20:16
th1aAlso: http://ikamvayouth.org20:17
replaceafillyes i found it :)20:17
replaceafillmy country could learn a few lessons from africa :(20:18
th1aActually, I hadn't looked up the website, so I'd better read up on that for a few minutes.20:19
replaceafill"the nightmare of spreasheets" :D20:21
th1aThat's our target audience.20:21
th1aThat's exactly who can benefit most.20:22
replaceafillholly crap: input data using mobile phones!20:22
th1aDo you have any better idea than phone-optimized web pages?20:22
th1aWe can't do an app for every type of phone.20:22
replaceafillno, i've never done that20:27
replaceafillthat could keep me up at night :)20:27
th1aPhone apps or web pages?20:28
replaceafillphone apps20:28
th1aYeah.  I actually played around with Python on the Nokia Series 60 for a while.20:29
replaceafillth1a, what's this quote to include in the proposal?20:29
th1aWell, what's in the doc, I guess plus the phone input which isn't in the doc.20:30
th1aNote that these don't have to necessarily be customizable changes that would go directly into trunk.20:30
th1aWe'd do this like the SLA stuff, local customizations that'd be rolled in later if it makes sense.20:30
replaceafillyes, i was thinking of a module or something, right?20:30
th1aWe'll just need to make it .deb installable.20:31
replaceafillah ok20:36
Lumiereth1a: you'll want to write a new skin for phones20:37
th1aSomething like that.20:37
Lumierethat limits the types of things that can be done20:37
* th1a has given up on trying to understand the Zope 3 terminology for presentation.20:37
Lumiereand provides a better interface (as a cellphone-web user... it can be a full webpage, it just needs to be light on imgs and use as little layout as possible20:38
th1areplaceafill: Can you see the SA Estimate doc?20:38
th1aI don't use Google Docs much... when does it update to you?20:38
replaceafillat first i thought i was empty20:39
replaceafilllet me check now20:39
Lumiereit will be almost instantly20:39
th1aDo I have to hit save?20:40
th1aOr is this like Gobby?20:40
Lumiereth1a: it is like gobby20:40
replaceafillth1a, i see it20:40
replaceafillTasks by SchoolTool Component20:40
Lumiereit will update every few seconds20:40
Lumierethe spreadsheet is a little slower20:40
th1aAha!  Being able to make teachers part of sections may pay off here!20:41
th1aSince we have to take attendance for the volunteers.20:41
th1aThey can just be modeled as a section themselves.20:42
Lumierethey should be sections, just with no grade reporting20:42
Lumierethey can use grades too20:42
th1aI I just invited you to look at the requirements doc, Lumiere.20:43
Lumierebtw... ctrl-m -> insert comment20:49
replaceafillnice :)20:49
Lumiereth1a: that is impressive20:50
Lumierethe requirements20:50
th1aIn what sense?20:50
th1aIn the "they seem to know what they're doing" sense?20:50
Lumiereyea (in the 'we know what we want' sense) and in the good things for a school to have20:51
Lumierein a lot of cases20:51
th1aMuch more together than the US school we went through this with a couple weeks ago.  ;-)20:51
th1aWhere do you think we should store the "subject worked on" "subject requested for next session" data.20:55
th1aIt is a natural fit for the journal, the only problem is that you currently can only store Absence/Tardy *or* a score in the journal.20:56
th1aYou might need to look at it.  ;-)20:57
th1aThe thing is that the journal automatically makes a cell for each meeting of the class.20:59
th1aThe gradebook doesn't.20:59
Lumiereth1a: uh what are those fields holding?21:00
LumiereI meant what the context of the information is21:00
th1aRight now, you put in an 'a' for absent, 't' for tardy, and a digit for a score.21:01
th1aOr a digit, I should say.21:01
Lumiereth1a: I meant for the "subject worked on/requested"21:01
th1aYou get one byte per class meeting, essentially.21:01
Lumierewhat do those relate to21:01
th1aWell, if I understand correctly, this is tutoring, so you'd say, "I need help on math next week."21:02
th1aAnd the teacher would put down an "m" and then they'd know how many kids want math next week.21:02
Lumierethat makes sense for the journal21:03
th1aYeah, it just will take a little more customization than I'd like.21:03
LumiereI would need to work through the UI but it does seem like a sane place21:03
* Lumiere wonders if we could make a separate view that extended journal but stored separately21:04
th1aLike most of these things, we could make it work now essentially for free, but spend some money to make it easier and smoother.21:04
Lumiereto make it a smaller change21:04
th1aThis would also be the main view we'd want a phone-optimized form for as well.21:04
th1areplaceafill: Is the above making any sense to you replaceafill?21:09
replaceafilli just was thinking about extending the journal21:09
th1aActually, I may be overstating the problem...21:09
krushikbtw, do you plan to introduce messaging between schooltool accounts?21:10
krushikhi all)21:10
th1aI don't really know how it handles tardies.21:10
th1ahi krushik.21:10
th1aActually, CanDo does that already.21:10
replaceafillwill look at it21:10
th1aWell, it has forums.21:10
th1aAlso, a student is working on a component that works kind of like Google Answers.21:11
th1areplaceafill: I guess the current journal has the same problem, you need to record the tardy and you also might give him or her a score.21:11
th1aAlthough you've still got the extra bit for "next week's request"21:12
replaceafillyes i was thinking the same21:12
replaceafillhow would you do that?21:12
th1aI'm not even sure how it is implemented now.21:12
replaceafilli can check that and let you know21:12
krushikthat was the first question from teachers to whom I did show schooltool (about marks of tardies)21:13
krushikth1a, ok, I should try to deploy CanDo, thanks21:14
th1akrushik: We'll have .debs for it soon.21:14
replaceafillkrushik, you could check
replaceafillkrushik, and
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th1aOh, they also need to track the type of session (homework, fundamentals, tutoring).21:23
th1aSo yeah, that's going to end up being pretty custom.21:23
th1aAll the basic machinery that runs the journal will work, but you're going to have to store three more bits.21:24
replaceafilland some kind of programme (MIE/HIV/CG)21:24
Lumiereth1a: yea21:24
th1aLook at what I just wrote under "Gradebook-ish"21:30
th1aA lot of this will be good for quick Grokking.21:32
th1aIs what I'm writing making sense?21:43
replaceafill"and take different internal tests" :O21:48
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th1aYou can still use the gradebook activities object, I'd think.21:51
replaceafilldifferent activities for different students?21:52
th1aWhat's missing from the list now?21:52
th1areplaceafill: It looks that way.21:52
th1aYou may have to get up early tomorrow morning and Skype South Africa...21:53
jelknerhow are you feeling, man?21:55
replaceafilljelkner, had three near death experiences!21:56
replaceafilli've learned to breath without air :/21:56
jelknerwhat happened?21:57
replaceafillat the morning, when i just wake up, my throat just closes21:57
replaceafilli went to the doctor yesterday and she told me it's lots of phlegm21:59
replaceafillthat i cant spit21:59
jelknerpeople can have reactions like that when they are alergic to something21:59
jelknerthroat swells up21:59
jelknerlots of phlegm22:00
jelknerare you ok?22:00
replaceafillkind of :/22:00
jelkneryou're way to young to be burying you man!22:00
jelknertake care of yourself!22:00
replaceafilli was really depressed in the weekend22:00
replaceafillthinking of my future kid and all that22:01
replaceafillbut, well, i'm still alive :)22:01
jelknerdo you have a serious condition?22:01
jelkneror is this something temporary?22:01
jelknerwhat is it?22:01
replaceafilldoctor thinks is something temporary22:02
replaceafillbut since i havent had medical insurance for the last two years, my blood pressure is at the roof now :/22:02
jelknerno medical insurance!22:02
jelknerdamn, i thought only gringos lived in a country uncivilized enough to allow its citizens not to be protected like that!22:03
replaceafillwelcome to el salvador! :D22:03
jelknerhopefully the new government will change that22:04
replaceafillthank god for my cando/schooltool income :)22:04
replaceafilli could pay for the doctor and medicines22:05
th1aSpeaking of which, we need to figure out this proposal.22:05
jelknerwhich proposal?22:05
replaceafillah sorry22:05
jelkneri really hope we can get the NFS grant22:05
jelknerwhich would give you a full time job for 3 years22:06
th1a is writing a grant including SchoolTool... due tomorrow of course.22:06
jelknerbut that won't start until next January *if* we get it22:06
replaceafillth1a, south africa time is 8 hours forward22:06
th1aYeah, I keep forgetting that.22:06
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replaceafillwell i always stay up late if they want to meet in "their" morning time :)22:07
th1aIs my summary missing anything?22:10
replaceafillth1a, i dont think so22:11
replaceafillthe community characteristics is just data about where the school is located, right?22:11
th1aI think so.22:12
th1aBut you need to track it by year.22:12
th1aSo it won't just be one object.22:12
replaceafillyes, keep a record22:13
th1aOverall, this'll be a great test of rapid SchoolTool development with Grok.22:13
replaceafillah! we're grokking it?!?!?22:13
th1aI would.22:13
th1aThese kinds of things which are really just simple objects to track some attributes should be perfect for Grok.22:14
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replaceafillth1a, what's the meaning of the three years of code maintenance?22:17
replaceafilllike support time for them?22:17
th1aWell, more specifically making sure it works with future versions of SchoolTool.22:23
th1aAnd general bugfixing, I'd say.22:24
th1aI'm not exactly sure what level of support they have in mind though.22:24
th1aI don't think this is what you'd think of as a "support contract" though.22:24
th1aMore insurance against them being stuck on a three year old incompatible code base.22:25
replaceafilli think everything in the Monitoring doc is in the estimate22:26
Lumiereyea... it's a *don't do anything that will get us screwed in the short term, because we won't have money for it*22:26
th1aWell, now you have to make it an "estimate."  ;-)22:28
replaceafilltwo things im worried about, the phones and the achievement record22:31
th1aI really only think the phone interface will be needed for the journal.22:33
th1aThat's how I'd estimate it.22:34
th1aFor that you'd want it to only show fields relevant to the current day.22:34
th1aNo big header/footer.22:34
th1aProbably not javascript.22:34
th1aAppropriate CSS.22:35
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replaceafillth1a, is there a development time limit for this?22:39
replaceafilli mean, like "we have to do it in a month" or something like that22:39
th1aWell, that's what I asked about this morning, but I guess it was too late to get a response.22:39
th1aPerhaps I should send out an email, you should figure out as much as you can, and then talk in the morning/before you go to bed.22:40
th1aIn particular, with a grant you don't know how long it will be before it is approved.22:40
replaceafillah ok22:40
th1aThey do seem pretty well established, so presumably they have some chance of getting a grant.22:40
replaceafillhe says August/October, right?22:41
th1aPerhaps I missed it.22:41
phuffordreplaceafill: Hi22:41
replaceafill"I'm looking for the22:41
replaceafillwork to be done around Aug/Oct"22:41
replaceafilli wonder from august to october22:41
replaceafillor august OR october22:42
th1aOh, I see.22:42
th1aYes, maybe you should just send her a "broad estimate" today.22:42
replaceafilloh is a "her" :D22:43
th1aProbably whatever they're doing for achievement tracking now is just a spreadsheet, so it is probably not particularly complicated.22:44
th1aIf you assume everything uses the same score system it should be pretty easy.22:44
th1aIf everything is a 0-100 score, with different metadata, that's pretty easy.22:45
th1aI'll also tell you the same thing I told moquist when we were trying to come up with a crazy estimate on two days notice,22:48
th1aif you get in a bind -- particularly if you run into limitations in SchoolTool core -- I can back you up with some of my development time.22:49
th1aParticularly since there are things here I'd like to have in SchoolTool core anyhow.22:50
th1aBut that gives you a little insurance to leap into the unknown.22:50
th1aObviously if this goes forward it is very much in my interest to see it succeed.22:50
replaceafillhow much time do u think it will take to an average schooltool developer? working full time22:50
replaceafilli suck at estimating :/22:51
th1aOK, let me see...22:51
replaceafillcause in cando, david always tell me do this, do that and i just do it :)22:51
th1aA month.22:52
th1aFor you.22:52
th1aThat's to treat this as a customer job, not "everything could be checked into SchoolTool trunk as is" mode.22:53
th1aIf you know what I mean.22:53
replaceafilllike the module we were talking about, right_22:54
th1aAnd, say, demographics, if you left that for last you could make something work in a couple days.22:54
th1aOr you could spend a week or more to polish it.22:54
th1aBut again, perhaps I'll pay for the polish later.22:55
th1aI think they'll be happy initially with "it works."22:55
replaceafillso, first make it work for them22:55
replaceafillso, should i send your SA Estimate text and the estimated time to Joy?22:56
th1aI guess so.22:57
replaceafillcool, will do that now then, and will try to contact her tomorrow morning (their morning)22:57
th1aOK, I'll send out an introductory email.22:59
th1aOK email sent, I cc:ed replaceafill.23:03
* th1a has to go to the grocery store.23:11
th1aThanks replaceafill!23:11

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