IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2008-10-13

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nubaehi there, I've managed to install 2008.4, is this the most up to date version? The features seem quite rudimentary still, almost all revolving around a calendar. Any ideas when things like report cards and grading for students will be implemented?13:45
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ignasnubae: well - i am working on school years at the moment14:48
ignasgradebook is not enabled by default in 2008.0414:49
ignasonly journal which is a gradebook/attendance hybrid thing14:49
ignasused in eastern europe14:49
ignasand you might want to look at
ignasfor some kind of overview14:50
nubaenice I hadn't seen that page before, I just wrote a little howto on installing schooltool from the bzr repos, which is not so trivial... took me a while to fix all dependencies and versions14:54
nubaefor it working on intrepid that is14:55
ignasyou mean like this ?15:19
ignasif you want to update anything there15:19
ignasor anywhere actually15:19
ignasyou can checkout code from here
ignas - is the book.schooltool.org15:20
ignasthe [version] bit in buildout.cfg is not interpid related, i just don't have the time to update all of them at the moment15:21
nubaeI'm actually working on a hybrid XS (olpc) and LTSP server that should include schooltool, it is a prototype for all Austrian schools15:21
nubaeI'll set it up on intrepid and update where relevant15:22
nubaeI didnt know those links existed, so thanks...15:22
ignasnubae: you are aware that 2008.04 is alpha15:22
ignasand I am working on 2008.1015:22
ignas(a.k.a. beta)15:22
ignasat the moment15:22
ignasgot 2 weeks left until interpid release to finish it :/15:22
ignasbut - we are getting school years!15:23
nubaeok, so there will be a intrepid schooltool release?15:23
nubaethats good15:23
ignaswhich kind of improves stuff15:23
ignasyeah, i just had no time to make interpid packages yet15:23
ignasbut i will definitely do that15:23
ignasand put them in our PPA15:23
nubaeI've looked at many many products, and non of them is simple enough, only schooltool comes close15:23
ignaswell - schooltool still needs a lot of things done... but, we're working on it ;)15:24
nubaeI understand its in use in some pilots right now... how is that going?15:24
ignaswell - CanDo people seem happy with it15:24
ignasdon't know about SLA15:24
ignasi am working on the core packages, so didn't interact with users that much last 6 months15:25
nubaeis 2008.10 functional? ie... is there a snapshot that I can build to checkout? or should I wait 2 weeks?15:26
ignaswell - if you are willing to redo your database (there is no evolution yet)15:27
ignasthen -
nubaeits just a test infrastructure at the moment, so I dont mind15:27
nubaebut I'd like to present the most feature full schooltool to the ministry of education here15:28
nubaeas long as it doesnt crash in the middle of the presentation :D15:28
ignashmm, in that case - avoid deleting school years and terms ;)15:30
ignasat least today15:30
ignasi will have that resolved tomorrow or wednesday ;)15:31
nubaepresentation is in a week15:32
ignashmm, in a week we'll either have evolution for old data or schooltool.gradebook enabled (or at least enableable easily)15:36
ignasor both15:36
ignasdepends on how well i'll work during the weekend15:37
nubaeone more question... does schooltool have openid integrated? Would be nice to have single sign on15:40
ignasnope, we can do CAS though15:41
ignasand CAS servers (at least the ruby ( one) can do at least LDAP and SQL,15:42
ignasmaybe some more stuff too, can't recall now15:43
nubaeI'll take a look at that, I really want moodle, schooltool, and user log on to work as one15:43
nubaeand want to avoid LDAP15:43
ignasnubae: moodle does CAS too15:43
ignasand if you set moodle and schooltool to use CAS, then you can configure your CAS server to use the thing that you need15:44
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Lumierehi aelkner, ignas, jelkner16:24
ignasLumiere: hi16:26
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ignashi tom16:27
jelknergood morning!16:27
th1aGood morning jelkner.16:27
jelknercan i get something on the end of the agenda this morning?16:28
nubaewhat is: schooltool.stapp2008spring/16:28
ignas nubae: it is a school setup16:28
ignasa package that configures schooltool packages16:28
ignasin a predetermined way16:28
th1ajelkner: What?  This is going to be an unusually busy meeting.16:28
ignaslike - enables schooltool.journal and schooltool.basicperson, but not schooltool.gradebook16:29
ignasnubae: now is meeting time, so you'll probably have to wait for it to end to ask more questions ;)16:29
nubaerealised... sorry16:30
th1ahi ignas, jelkner, aelkner, Lumiere.  Did we lose yvl?16:30
th1aThanks nubae.16:30
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jelknerth1a: never mind then16:30
ignasth1a: yes, we lost him, i think he managed to send you an email before leaving though16:30
jelkneri just sent an email to the schooltool-dev list16:30
jelkneri'll bring this up later16:31
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th1aOK.  How far did we get by the end of the sprint?16:31
th1aAny progress after lunch?16:31
th1aaelkner, jelkner?16:32
Lumieresomeone probably needs to poke aelkner16:32
aelkneri left for Jerset at about 2:00, so not much hapened after you left16:32
jelkneraelkner: you should answer that one16:32
th1aAlso, did filip actually include a patch with his mail?  I didn't see one.16:32
th1aOK, so here's what we got going then.16:33
aelkneri did n't get a patch from filip16:33
th1aCategory weighting for gradebook.16:33
th1aThat was Alan and Douglas.16:33
th1aThere are still some edge cases we should file bugs for so we don't forget.16:33
th1aThat is: handling removal of weighting values properly.16:34
th1aAnd... I forget.16:34
th1aDo you remember aelkner?16:34
aelkneroh, yes, the event hanlder16:34
th1aFor what event?16:34
th1aOh, making the column read-only.16:35
aelknerif a category is removed from the system16:35
aelknerthen all references to t in the weights needs to be removed16:35
th1aHm... you know, we probably don't want that.16:35
th1aIt will break old grades, right?16:36
th1aI mean, we probably should not let you delete categories.16:36
aelknerwe shouldn't allow a category to be released if16:36
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Lumiereyea, do not allow a category to be removed16:37
th1aThose are created by teachers, right?16:37
* th1a is confused.16:37
aelknercategories are maintained by the admin16:37
th1aAre categories system-wide?16:37
dwelshin eschools plus...16:37
aelknerManage -> Activity Categories16:37
dwelshthere are four preset categories16:37
dwelshthen teachers can add additional16:37
th1aHi dwelsh.16:38
dwelshgood morning16:38
th1aCan categories be deleted now?16:38
dwelshwill have to check16:38
th1aI'll look at that.16:38
dwelsham guessing teacher added categories can be removed16:38
th1aLet's keep going.16:38
Lumieredwelsh: we'll come back to it16:38
th1aFilip added javascript hooks to the gradebook and filldown.16:39
th1aignas: Did you get the patch?16:39
ignasth1a: nope16:39
aelknerme, neither16:39
th1aDid you get his email?16:39
th1aOK.  I'll point that out to him.16:40
th1aAlso, Douglas seemed to learn a lot, so he should be able to contribute soon.16:40
th1aignas: is yvl around?16:40
ignasth1a: no, he is feeling very sick, so he went home like 30 minutes ago16:41
th1aAh, crap.16:41
ignasbut he checked out the stuff16:41
ignasand looked at it16:41
ignasand even found some kind of bug in the interventions package16:41
ignasthat he spent some time diagnosing16:41
th1aOK... if he's alive we'd really like to have the report Wednesday.16:41
ignasyeah, i know, and he knows16:42
th1aOK.  I wasn't sure if I had stressed that before.16:42
ignashe already looked at the reportlab integration in schooltool16:42
ignasand everything (except for interventions being a bit broken in some place) seems fine from what I understand16:42
aelknerwhat's broken?16:43
ignascan't tell precisely, but he was getting some kind lookup error (some data not being in the container, while application expects it)16:43
th1aBy "reportlab integration seems fine" do you mean "you can actually generate pdf's without throwing an exception?"16:43
ignaswhen performing a student search in the interventions16:43
ignasth1a: yeah, more like "the code looks good, and seems to be working"16:44
ignaspdf generation16:44
th1aOne other post-sprint issue is I think I'm getting sick.16:45
th1aThis is the drawback of putting 150 people from around the world in a school together for a weekend.16:45
th1aignas: How is your work coming?16:45
ignasth1a: i had to rewrite the term add/edit form16:46
ignaswe lost the date picker for this moment16:46
ignasbut now we have actual error checking16:46
ignas(there was none)16:46
ignaslike - if you swapped start and end dates - you'd get crazy results16:46
ignaslike all the days in the old term set to weekends16:47
ignasso now - school years and terms check errors properly when added/edited16:47
ignaserror messages are even helpful, and do provide links to conflicting terms/ school years, and display date ranges16:47
ignasI also fixed some issues with term/school year removal16:47
ignas(we never had the usecase of the whole group container being removed before)16:48
ignasand now I am working on the evolution script16:48
ignasafter that - i will work on gradebook plugification16:48
ignaswell - making it possible to enable schooltool.gradebook16:49
ignaswithout creating a new database16:49
aelknerthe other AppInit16:49
ignasyeah, more like AppStartUp16:49
ignasor ServerStartUp16:49
aelknerin a way, AppSatertup could replace AppInit, right?16:49
th1aYou can also look at merging Filip's patch and the sprint branch.16:50
ignasI guess I could16:50
jelknerth1a: i just sent email to filip about his patch16:50
th1aThanks jelkner.16:51
ignashope they have cleaned up at least some of the things in there...16:51
th1aIn the gradebook?16:51
th1aWell, perhaps we can discuss that later.16:52
th1aLumiere: Anything to add?16:52
th1aOK.  aelkner has a lingering bug at SLA we need some advice on.16:54
th1aaelkner:  Want to give us a brief intro?16:54
aelkneryeah, the intervention package uses Zope.Sendmail16:54
aelknerthe bug is that when the intervention package sends a mail16:55
aelknerthe mail item gets added to the mail-queue/new directory in the instance directory16:55
aelknerbut all mail is getting stuck there until we do a restart16:56
ignasyeah, Justas got mail related tracebacks too16:56
ignasbut that's because he didn't configure anything in there16:56
aelkneryeah, you have to add a block to your school.zcml16:56
th1aYes, that needs to be fixed before it can be used elsewhere.16:56
aelknerignas: i have in the back of my mind16:57
th1aSo what were you telling me about stdout?16:57
aelknerthat maybe the mail is getting blocked becuase the /etc/init.d/schooltool script that i wrote is bad16:57
aelknermaybe it orphans sysout or syserr in a way that makes Zope.sendmail block16:58
aelknerdo you have a init.d script that i could use?16:58
aelknersorry, stdout and stderr16:59
th1aWhat's wrong with our debian one?16:59
aelkneri've never seen it16:59
ignasaelkner: i didn't have any time too look at the way you have set up mail for SLA16:59
ignasso i can't really help you at the moment17:00
aelknerignas: what about the init.d script?17:00
ignashmm, i don't know, i had no problems with it17:00
aelknerno, the question was17:00
th1aaelkner: if you install our debian package you'll get it.17:00
th1a(debian/ubuntu package)17:01
aelknerwould installing the debian package conflict with my sandbox in any way?17:01
th1aAlso, it must be in our repository somewhere.17:01
aelkneri'd prefer to get it from there17:01
aelkneri was hoping ignas could answer the "somewhere" question17:01
th1aWell, I can just send you a copy from my computer here.17:02
aelknerthat would work17:02
ignasaelkner: school tool packages do not have the init script iirc, they have a configuration that builds it17:02
th1aSince I have copies on. like, all my computers.17:03
th1ajust a sec...17:05
th1aOK, sent.  Take a look at that aelkner.17:06
aelknerlooking at it now...17:08
aelknerfirst question, why is this written in shell and not python ?!17:09
th1aIt is a debian init script.17:09
ignasaelkner: because if all the packages would write init scripts in their language admins would have to know python, perl, ruby, java, shell, common-lisp and pretty much every other language...17:10
aelkneryou could say that, but17:11
aelkneri remember jelkner telling me that mark's goal was to eventually17:11
aelknerreplace all .sh scripts in ubuntu with python versions17:11
aelkneris that not the case?17:12
th1aI don't think it is practical.17:12
ignasespecially if you are taking most of the packages from debian17:12
aelknernot important, iwas just curious17:13
th1aThat script is actually called from /etc/init.d/schooltool-2008.17:13
th1aYou really should just install the Ubuntu package so you can see how the parts fit together.17:14
aelknerso to answer my question from before, is ther any conflict possible between te debian package and usign the sandbox?17:15
ignasunless you put stuff in /etc17:15
th1aThere shouldn't be -- we've spent hundreds of hours working on systems to make it possible.17:15
ignassandbox is isolated17:16
ignasyou don't need root to install it17:16
ignasyou can't mess up system packages without being root17:16
ignasor using sudo ;)17:16
ignasunless you drop your laptop from the fifth floor17:16
th1aOK.  I guess that's the next step for aelkner then.17:17
aelkneris there a link to the instructions for installng the debian package you could give me?17:17
th1ajelkner: Do you want to throw in your bit?17:18
ignasth1a: can you add a link to the book to the front page on schooltool.org17:20
th1aI guess I need to make it more emphatic.17:21
th1aI'm going to be working on between now and the release.17:21
ignasok, just thought about it when nubae mentioned that he didn't know that the book existed ;)17:22
th1aOK.  That's all I've got.  We've got a lot to do... any last words?17:22
ignashave a nice week17:22
ignaswe have 2 weeks left to release the thing...17:22
ignas(if i recall correctly)17:23
th1a17 days.17:23
th1aRIght now if you click on "Documentation" the book is the first thing on the list.17:23
ignasyeah, i know17:23
th1aWhen you run a website like this you learn the extent that people have to be beaten over the head with things.17:24
th1aOK, have a great week, folks!17:24
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:25
lisppaste5ignas pasted "Evolution script plan" at
ignasth1a: can you look at it and try to think of something i have missed?17:28
th1aAlso, where can I leave loot for you?17:28
ignasahh, rens will do ;)17:29
ignasthanks :)17:29
jelknerth1a: i can wait17:30
th1aJelkner is the only gradebook user.17:30
jelkneri think it is *super* exciting17:30
jelknerbut we can deal with it later17:30
th1aSo maybe he just needs a script for himself.17:30
Lumiereignas: for making schoolyears17:30
jelknerthe 1st thing is just getting replaceafil to finish the cando integration17:31
Lumiereyou may want to have it ask17:31
Lumierewhat the start/stop dates17:31
th1aI would just say don't get stuck seeing everything flowing through the gradebook.17:31
Lumierefor year are17:31
Lumierethere aren't going to be many evolutions to it17:31
ignasLumiere: no, i can't it's an evolution script17:31
LumiereI meant17:31
Lumierehave it look at a config file17:31
Lumiereand fail if it isn't right17:31
ignasLumiere: emm, can't expect users to fix schooltool.conf17:32
Lumierewith a message "please setup schoolyear transition configuration17:32
ignason their system when sudo apt-get updating17:32
Lumiereignas: how many users17:32
ignasLumiere: no idea17:32
Lumiereare actually going to be doing that transition17:32
th1aWe can pretty much assume it is people we know.17:32
Lumiereth1a: what format is that book in17:33
Lumiereand where is it written17:33
th1aIt is restructured text checked into bzr.17:33
th1aschooltool-owners on LP.17:33
th1aThe html is generated with Sphinx, which rulez.17:34
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th1aOne thing we could do is simply have users change the titles of terms to fit a convention making it easier for us to know what to do with them in evolution.17:42
ignaswe can try that, though - how to stall evolution and give them the chance to do it...17:44
th1aI'm saying that we really only have to worry about the people we're actively supporting.17:44
ignaswell - i will definitely have the "try to find year as prefix to the title" in my magic17:45
ignasso if your terms will have "2005 Fall" "2005 Spring" or17:45
th1aAnyone else who is a) using alpha software in production and b) ignoring emails to the list, posts to the website, etc. about upgrading their scary alpha production software17:45
ignas"2005-2006 Fall" "2005-2006 Spring"17:45
th1ais just on their own.17:46
ignasthen if that fails - i will look at dates, and try adding break in summer or in the longest span (like if i see term1, small break, term2, small break, term3, loong break term4) put the 3 terms in one school year17:48
ignasand then if all that fails - just give a school year for every term (or maybe look at sections and try to keep section in the same school year)17:48
th1aDon't go too nuts with it.17:49
th1aI mean, don't spend too much time on it.17:49
ignaswell - i don't really want to hurry to much doing this, because if I mess it up, no one can fix it ;)17:50
Lumiereignas: btw, Application Control has an "Evolve?" on it17:51
ignas*too much17:51
Lumierecan we make it so evolution to schoolyears17:51
ignasLumiere: you don't want to rely on it17:51
Lumierehas to be done by a manager in there?17:51
ignasLumiere: application will not work without data structures set up17:51
Lumiereignas: ok17:51
ignasLumiere: it just won't, the code can't support database without school years17:51
Lumiereoh well17:51
Lumiereit was a thought17:51
ignassee you tomorrow18:26
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