IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2008-03-05

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th1aignas: Did you look at my pictures?15:52
ignasth1a: yes15:57
th1aDo they fit with what you've been envisioning?15:57
ignasa bit more ambitious but yes15:58
th1aMore ambitious in what way?15:58
ignasyour plan needs some views that do not exist in schooltool16:00
ignasand making them + making them pluggable to do what you have drawn is *work*16:01
ignasas in "is not free"16:01
ignasyour drawings that is16:01
th1aWell, many of them don't need to be pluggable.16:01
ignasplus - i am not 100% sure we can fit all the actions in the button row for all objects16:01
ignasif not pluggable then complex16:01
ignascomplex meaning - they do not simply show stuff16:01
th1aThe home view is as complex as you want it to be, definitely.16:02
ignasbut rather show some things on one condition and other things on other conditions16:02
th1aThe new views can all start out pretty simply.16:03
ignasi guess yes16:03
th1aAlthough I think aelkner would like to plan them out in precise detail.16:03
ignasjust pointing out that it adds more tasks to the schedule16:03
th1aI'm confident they can be fleshed out after the sprint.16:05
ignasi think we should only think of some things after we see what we can do with the system16:05
ignasas soon as we will add tabs and move actions to buttons16:05
ignasmy guess is that we will encounter a lot of problems we didn't think of16:06
ignasand will have to spend time mangling schooltool to fit with tabs and to work sanely16:06
ignasbut i am a pessimist in general16:06
th1aIt seems to me that making sure the right tabs are highlighted when you're viewing each view will be tedious.16:07
ignasdoing it right will be, but just making sure schooltool makes sense with tabs is something I am not sure about at the moment16:08
ignasmatching the behaviour of the application with user expectations part16:08
ignasbecause our navigation menus no matter how crappy they are16:08
ignasat least match with what you expect out of the system most of the time16:08
th1aThey map directly to the internal structure of the objects, at least.16:09
ignasnavigation is such a crucial part of the system that the system get's designed around it16:11
ignaswhich is why I think it is so difficult to redo it from scratch, without redesigning parts of the application16:11
ignaswe would have made the interaction with sections courses attendance and the rest of the things quite differently16:11
ignasif we were using tabs from the very beginning16:12
th1aWell, it is definitely an argument for making the initial step in the simplest possible way.16:12
ignasthe lack of user specific "front pages" for content objects is one of the most noticable differences16:12
th1aI'm not sure exactly what you mean.16:12
ignaswell - we don't have an attendance view for student or an attendance summary view for teacher16:13
ignasbecause we assumed that teachers will only access attendance for sections16:13
ignasand if you have an attendance tab16:13
ignasyou suddenly need a page that would show "general information" or links16:13
ignasand just plain links suddenly *feel* not that good16:14
ignasth1a: as for the simples solution - that's how I explained it to lyceum16:14
ignasth1a: we want to have tabs so that our new users would start reasoning about tabs16:14
ignasth1a: and how to improve them16:14
ignasth1a: instead of concentrating on the menus, or comming up with their own tabbed ideas16:15
ignasth1a: just having a common starting point even if it's not too good16:15
ignasshould help us have meaningful discussions about how the "tab" system can be improved16:15
ignasinstead having to go through all the yes, menus suck, but we'll have tabs in a year or two16:15
ignasso we can't discuss menus at the moment16:16
ignasbecause they will be gone16:16
ignasth1a: hope I understood your motivation for the change correctly16:16
th1aSorry, looked away for a couple minutes...16:17
th1aYes, that's right.16:17
ignasso it is more of a "setting topic for the discussion" not "coming up with the best possible solution that will suit everyone"16:19
th1aWell, aelkner would like to have a completely worked out best possible solution.16:21
th1aBut that's his nature.16:21
* ignas sighs16:22
th1aI've just tried to make complex forward-looking plans enough times now to know that it is futile.16:24
* th1a goes to shower.16:25
th1abtw, in case you're wondering, the US is headed for a complete electoral meltdown.16:25
th1aShould be fun.16:25
ignaswhat does "electoral meltdown" mean?16:27
th1aignas: Nobody knows.  That's the fun part!16:45
ayanamiignas: likely that for the first time in recent memory, one of the parties won't have a nominee for president by their official nominating convention17:05
ayanamiwow nick issues17:06
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Lumierebeen a while since I got popped to that nick17:06
ignasLumiere: now we know your secret alter ego17:11
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Lumiereone of them17:38
Lumieremy link list is 7 nicks17:39
Lumiereall of em set noexpire17:39
Lumiereoff to work... bbl17:40
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th1ahey aelkner.22:13
aelknerjust wanted to say hey?22:14
aelknerth1a: i like your idea for "The School" instead of "Enrollment"22:18
aelknereven if I came up with Enrollment and welsh liked it22:18
aelkneryour idea is more generic22:19
th1aAre you ok with what I've got overall?22:19
th1aEnrollment limits what can be stuffed under the tab too much.22:19
aelkneryeah, i like the red bar between the top and the current module22:19
aelknerwe need to have the schooltool logo there, don't we22:19
th1aNot really.22:20
aelkneryou don't want any logo?22:20
th1aWe can stick it on the home page or something.22:20
th1aIt isn't worth the space, I don't think.22:20
aelkneri could be convinced of that argument22:20
aelknerbut i thought other people have been pushing for logog and branding22:20
aelknerIf there were room for it in the red bar, would it help?22:21
th1aI do like my idea of having it say "SchoolTool: free administrative software for <YOUR NAME HERE>22:21
th1aYOUR SCHOOL NAME, actually.22:21
aelkneryes, that does tell the user two things22:21
aelknerthat they are using schooltool22:22
aelknerand which school22:22
aelknerso that's important22:22
th1aAnd it is just for them!22:22
aelknerbut could we add the logo (a small enough one)?22:22
th1aZonki doesn't look like anything small.22:22
aelknerwho's Zonki?22:22
th1aOur zebra.22:22
aelkneroh, him22:23
aelknerwell, it's a small matter at best22:23
aelknerthe important part is the schooltool and school names appearing22:23
th1aI think we can fit him on the home/go page.22:24
th1aSo in reality, we're all pretty close now, right?22:24
aelknercould you explain your thinking on Manage versus "The School"?22:24
aelknerthere seems to be overlap22:25
th1aWell, it is essentially the same as "Admin" vs. "Enrollment"22:25
th1aExcept different words.22:25
aelkneryou can add a person in both places22:25
aelknerwelsh wanted admin to be only for site preferences22:25
aelknerand such22:25
th1aUnder manage it is just a link to the add form on the person container -- under "The School."22:26
th1aI think I discussed this with Welsh.22:26
aelkneri wasn't there, so i'll take your word on that22:26
th1aThere are just a set of shortcuts to common tasks on the go page for Manage.22:27
aelknerto answer your bigger question, though, yes, it is very close to what we all want22:27
aelknerwelsh and i can work on getting that into the high-fidelity prototype this weekend22:28
aelkneri want welsh to talk with you again before that22:28
aelknerjust to make sure he sees the same things at the detail level that you do22:28
aelknerthen we will be ready to do the dreamweaver stuff22:28
aelknerit would be nice to have that by next monday for us to click around in22:29
aelknerthen, at the sprint, we can hit the ground running22:29
aelkneranyway, i think we're in good shape22:30
aelknerth1a: btw, one of the best things about your mockup is the movement of user name and log out to the red bar below the top22:31
aelknerthat gives us plenty of real estate at the top for new plugins22:32
th1aaelkner: Sorry, I had to go change a colossally poopy diaper.22:34
th1aThat was the one I've been dreading for 13 months.22:34
aelknerthat's a nice image22:34
th1aOK, I have to go.22:35
aelknerdon't get any poop on your keyboard22:35
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