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| dwelsh | hoffman, you there? | 16:16 |
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| Lumiere | hi dwelsh | 16:23 |
| Lumiere | dwelsh: SchoolTool dev meeting starts in 6 minutes | 16:23 |
| Lumiere | so he'll be hre | 16:23 |
| Lumiere | +e | 16:23 |
| th1a | ignas: Can you see this now? http://www.careercenter.arlington.k12.va.us/cando/schooltool_ui/skills.htm | 16:28 |
| aelkner | th1a: notice how we came up with the word, "Enrollment" to handle persons and sections together? | 16:29 |
| Lumiere | ugh, brb | 16:30 |
| th1a | Yeah, that's better. | 16:30 |
| aelkner | I thought it was important for screen realestate to keep those together | 16:30 |
| aelkner | besides they go together functionally anyway | 16:30 |
| th1a | We just have to stuff resources somewhere -- I'd rather not have them under calendar. | 16:30 |
| ignas | hi | 16:30 |
| th1a | (and I'd rather not call the calendar "schedule") | 16:30 |
| aelkner | scheduling | 16:31 |
| th1a | Whatever. | 16:31 |
| aelkner | well, what does a calendar and a term have in common? | 16:31 |
| th1a | That's only one use of the calendar. | 16:31 |
| aelkner | they schedule time | 16:31 |
| th1a | Look, I'm not the one putting all those things under a tab. | 16:32 |
| th1a | I'm against that. | 16:32 |
| aelkner | you can blame me for that | 16:32 |
| ignas | th1a: aren't we going a bit over the scope? | 16:32 |
| aelkner | but i'm trying to make my case | 16:32 |
| th1a | You're complexifying the calendar. | 16:32 |
| th1a | ignas: I'm trying not to. | 16:32 |
| aelkner | i'm trying to put things together that are related | 16:32 |
| th1a | And we are less than we were a week ago. | 16:32 |
| th1a | aelkner: That's not necessarily the goal. | 16:33 |
| aelkner | we can only have so many tabs | 16:33 |
| aelkner | so we have to make those kinds of choices | 16:33 |
| aelkner | enrollment is another case of that | 16:33 |
| th1a | Yes, but we can just put terms and timetables under admin. | 16:34 |
| aelkner | we could | 16:34 |
| ignas | aelkner: you know that schooltool should work without terms for example, and without gradebooks and without attendance ... | 16:34 |
| th1a | When a user wants to view a term or timetable, he or she should be able to do that by looking at their calendar. | 16:34 |
| aelkner | where would they do it? | 16:34 |
| th1a | Well, in practice it is inherent in when they have section events. | 16:35 |
| th1a | If they have classes, a term is going on. | 16:35 |
| th1a | The times they start and stop are determined by the timetable. | 16:35 |
| ignas | th1a: it suddenly seems that your way of redoing the UI would require the addition of a set of new pluggable views for most of the tabs/categories | 16:35 |
| ignas | th1a: if I am understanding the screenshot correctly | 16:36 |
| th1a | Which screenshot? | 16:36 |
| th1a | The one I just linked to? | 16:36 |
| ignas | http://www.careercenter.arlington.k12.va.us/cando/schooltool_ui/skills.htm | 16:36 |
| ignas | yes | 16:36 |
| ignas | or was it just an example | 16:36 |
| ignas | of cando UI | 16:36 |
| th1a | I wonder if last week's problem was related to Pakistan. | 16:36 |
| aelkner | glad to see that ignas can access the mock-up now | 16:37 |
| th1a | Yes... the CanDo page is more complex. | 16:37 |
| aelkner | let's put aside cando for a moment | 16:37 |
| aelkner | well, not exactly | 16:37 |
| th1a | The one thing that has to be pluggable is a single row of links across the top. | 16:37 |
| th1a | Below that, the individual add-on is responsible for everything. | 16:38 |
| th1a | In terms of what we'd be implementing at PyCon. | 16:38 |
| aelkner | That's why we tried to open up screen realestate | 16:38 |
| ignas | th1a: what do you think of the plan that I have suggested? | 16:38 |
| th1a | You mean the overall list of things that need to be done? | 16:39 |
| aelkner | ignas: when did you suggest the plan | 16:39 |
| aelkner | ? | 16:39 |
| ignas | th1a: yes, and the order and the scope | 16:39 |
| aelkner | that note about a week ago? | 16:39 |
| ignas | hmm, i am not sure I sent it to everyone :/ | 16:39 |
| ignas | I think I only sent it to Tom | 16:40 |
| th1a | Oh... sorry if I didn't respond... I had a conversation in my head, at least. | 16:40 |
| ignas | :) | 16:40 |
| aelkner | well i'm glad you two have it all under control :) | 16:40 |
| th1a | I do think we need to do this basic reorganization. | 16:40 |
| th1a | And we need to make it as minimal as possible. | 16:40 |
| th1a | Because the things you've listed are essential as well. | 16:41 |
| aelkner | when do i get to peek at this list? | 16:41 |
| th1a | ignas: Can you forward it to aelkner? | 16:41 |
| Lumiere | ok, I'm back | 16:41 |
| Lumiere | th1a: there needs to be a way for someone to view the full term | 16:42 |
| Lumiere | and to get information on the schedule of the school | 16:42 |
| th1a | Lumiere: OK, but that's an implementation detail of the calendar. | 16:42 |
| Lumiere | and the calendar is not a good way to do it | 16:42 |
| Lumiere | th1a: not right now | 16:42 |
| Lumiere | th1a: right now that is entirely handled by terms and timetables | 16:42 |
| ignas | Lumiere: i still have to see a teacher that needs to see the whole term | 16:43 |
| th1a | ignas: What do you mean? | 16:43 |
| aelkner | so where do terms and timetables belong in the UI? | 16:43 |
| ignas | th1a: the term as in "just the term" not lessons | 16:43 |
| th1a | Like, "I need to see a view of what days we have school this term?" | 16:44 |
| ignas | th1a: not events, but just plain term with full information ib which days are schooldays, and which are not schooldays etc. | 16:44 |
| ignas | it's more of an admin thing *most* of the time | 16:44 |
| ignas | it is useful nevertheless | 16:45 |
| ignas | but it is not important enough to get a top level navigation item | 16:45 |
| Lumiere | ignas: in the US, parents want to know when school ends, where winter vacation is | 16:45 |
| dwelsh | welsh is here too | 16:45 |
| Lumiere | teachers need to know where the end of grading terms are | 16:45 |
| Lumiere | to get grades in | 16:45 |
| dwelsh | Doesn't everyone see timetables already, as a part of the calendar | 16:45 |
| ignas | yes, but not every day | 16:45 |
| dwelsh | yes, but teachers do want to see it | 16:45 |
| Lumiere | ignas: but it needs to be easy to find | 16:45 |
| Lumiere | and simple to understand | 16:45 |
| dwelsh | (teacher speaking) | 16:45 |
| th1a | OK, here's what I don't want -- two rows of tabs above your calendar. | 16:45 |
| Lumiere | where they need to go | 16:45 |
| th1a | This is making me feel like my original idea of stuffing the rest of the current UI under a big tab isn't such a bad idea. | 16:46 |
| aelkner | th1a: what rest ot the UI? | 16:47 |
| th1a | I mean a top level "more..." tab which has the navigation menu as a second row of tabs. | 16:47 |
| ignas | th1a: hmm, I have assumed that we are replacing one navigation scheme with another one | 16:47 |
| ignas | th1a: leaving the UI the way it was | 16:47 |
| th1a | Yes, yes... if I say "UI" read "navigation." | 16:48 |
| th1a | My point in all this is that I want to have a simplicity around the basic tasks a teacher does every day. | 16:48 |
| ignas | th1a: my suggestion was - to put all the items that do not get their own tab | 16:48 |
| ignas | th1a: under SchoolTool tab | 16:48 |
| aelkner | th1a: what exactly do you object to with the mock-up? | 16:48 |
| th1a | If you hit "calendar" you don't want "an assortment of time-related functions." | 16:48 |
| th1a | You want your calendar. | 16:49 |
| aelkner | ok, fine | 16:49 |
| aelkner | how about your suggestion to put terms and timetables under admin? | 16:49 |
| Lumiere | th1a: if you hit calendar | 16:49 |
| Lumiere | you get your calendar | 16:49 |
| Lumiere | with a few options | 16:49 |
| th1a | You guys are convincing me it can't go there. | 16:49 |
| th1a | Lumiere: I don't want it to be "calendar plus other stuff." | 16:50 |
| Lumiere | th1a: WHY | 16:50 |
| ignas | Lumiere: out of scope for this sprint! | 16:50 |
| Lumiere | ignas: no, it isn't | 16:50 |
| th1a | I want it to be what it says. | 16:50 |
| ignas | Lumiere: unless you will be doing the programming ;) | 16:50 |
| Lumiere | th1a: and if you don't care about timetable or term | 16:50 |
| Lumiere | th1a: then it is exactly what it says | 16:50 |
| aelkner | ignas: we have plenty of programmers | 16:50 |
| Lumiere | if you do, it is what it says + some really handy information | 16:51 |
| Lumiere | that takes up so little space it is negligble | 16:51 |
| Lumiere | especially now that we're shrinking the header | 16:51 |
| th1a | We can just as easily put that handy information somewhere else. | 16:51 |
| ignas | aelkner: sent you the plan | 16:51 |
| Lumiere | th1a: execpt that is *the* place it makes sense to look for it in | 16:51 |
| dwelsh | This mockup is actually simpler than SchoolTool now | 16:51 |
| dwelsh | the calendar page now has the read bar | 16:52 |
| dwelsh | plus navigation and action menus | 16:52 |
| dwelsh | with all kinds of unrelated stuff | 16:52 |
| th1a | What would make most sense is if you looked ON YOUR CALENDAR for when the term begins and ends. | 16:52 |
| dwelsh | I don't get ignas' points about two rows of tabs | 16:52 |
| dwelsh | you basically have two now | 16:52 |
| Lumiere | th1a: but how do I know what that is? | 16:52 |
| dwelsh | with about a million more unrelated items | 16:52 |
| th1a | dwelsh: There's having two rows of tabs from a UI perspective, | 16:53 |
| ignas | dwelsh: my point? | 16:53 |
| th1a | and from a programming perspective, building it into the DNA of the system. | 16:53 |
| dwelsh | yes | 16:53 |
| aelkner | ignas: i read you note | 16:53 |
| aelkner | forwarded it to dwelsh and Lumiere | 16:54 |
| ignas | th1a: as for the term stuff, i'd rather have someone add "term" markers to yearly and monthly views | 16:54 |
| aelkner | views of what? | 16:54 |
| ignas | calendar | 16:54 |
| aelkner | what context does one need to be in to view and edit terms? | 16:55 |
| th1a | I'm saying "admin." | 16:55 |
| aelkner | that's why we had terms in the scheduling tab | 16:55 |
| ignas | editing of terms is purely admin stuff | 16:55 |
| aelkner | can it be done without a calendar? | 16:55 |
| ignas | viewing terms from what Lumiere is suggesting is needed for teachers too | 16:55 |
| th1a | It has its own calendar view. | 16:55 |
| ignas | so making that information readily available in some calendar views | 16:55 |
| ignas | would be the most elegant solution i can think of | 16:56 |
| ignas | that would not break anything | 16:56 |
| ignas | nor change anything drastically ;) | 16:56 |
| aelkner | so why not administer them from there too? | 16:56 |
| ignas | aelkner: because yearly calendar view is not too convenient | 16:56 |
| th1a | I think we could get interns to make useful term views in the calendar. | 16:56 |
| ignas | and administering terms is a once a year only task | 16:56 |
| aelkner | so that should go in the admin tab in your opinion? | 16:57 |
| th1a | The thing is, the yearly view is somewhat useless for regular events anyhow, | 16:57 |
| ignas | aelkner: yes, adding/removing/editing terms | 16:57 |
| th1a | so it could become a term view by default. | 16:57 |
| ignas | adding/removing/editing school timetables | 16:57 |
| aelkner | dwelsh: you hear that? | 16:57 |
| th1a | I can think of no case where more than one person needs to be able to edit the school year. | 16:57 |
| Lumiere | I am fine with yearly -> term view | 16:58 |
| Lumiere | and timetables/terms as purely a admin thing | 16:58 |
| ignas | th1a: exactly my point ;) | 16:58 |
| Lumiere | we also need a single-reference for viewing the full timetable | 16:58 |
| Lumiere | (think a new student coming into school, looking to understand what classes are when) | 16:58 |
| th1a | Lumiere: OK, but it doesn't need to be a tab. | 16:59 |
| ignas | Lumiere: we have something like that in lyceum | 16:59 |
| ignas | Lumiere: i'll show it to you in pycon i guess | 16:59 |
| ignas | th1a: if tabs will be pluggable | 16:59 |
| ignas | Lumiere: will be able to make it a tab | 16:59 |
| ignas | if you follow my plan that is ;) | 17:00 |
| ignas | it should allow everyone to shoot at his own leg precisely the way he wants ;) | 17:00 |
| ignas | *he/she | 17:00 |
| th1a | Am I thinking of a different email from ignas? | 17:00 |
| ignas | the reply that was suggesting us to have top level tabs just plain link viewlets | 17:01 |
| ignas | it was a reply to your comments for section overlay UI | 17:01 |
| th1a | What was the title of this email? | 17:01 |
| ignas | "section list" | 17:01 |
| aelkner | I thought we agreeed to the goolgle apps aproach | 17:02 |
| aelkner | dwelsh and i have been operating under that assumption | 17:02 |
| aelkner | adn we have questions about the look and feel | 17:02 |
| aelkner | that we haven't even gotten to yet | 17:02 |
| aelkner | first of all | 17:03 |
| aelkner | we have the tabs to allow anyone to add a plugin | 17:03 |
| aelkner | like skilld in the mockup | 17:03 |
| th1a | I remember reading the first part of this email but not the second. | 17:03 |
| th1a | OK.... let's STOP for a minute, please. | 17:03 |
| aelkner | th1a: we're listening? | 17:05 |
| th1a | No... I'm trying to understand ignas's email, which is, for better or worse, essential to us having the rest of this conversation. | 17:06 |
| th1a | So you're just going to have to wait another minute. | 17:06 |
| aelkner | is this the email you just forwarded me and i forwarded to dwelsh and Lumiere? | 17:07 |
| ignas | yes | 17:07 |
| th1a | OK... so one thing is that there is no particular reason in the new navigation scheme an individual application can't use menus. | 17:08 |
| th1a | So we're all agreed on that, right? | 17:08 |
| ignas | what do you mean by "individual applications" ? | 17:09 |
| th1a | LIke "calendar" "gradebook" | 17:09 |
| ignas | is "timetabling" "courses" "terms" an application? | 17:09 |
| aelkner | "Skills" is an individual app (CanDo) | 17:09 |
| th1a | ignas: Not for the purposes of this conversation. | 17:10 |
| ignas | i see | 17:10 |
| dwelsh | skills, grades... are MODULES | 17:10 |
| th1a | Well, we'll have to settle on some new nomenclature. | 17:11 |
| th1a | "Modules" has a specific meaning in Python. | 17:11 |
| dwelsh | nomenclature is important | 17:11 |
| ignas | dwelsh: don't use that word please, "module" can be used to define "anything" :/ | 17:11 |
| th1a | Let's just power through for the moment. | 17:11 |
| aelkner | plgin is useful | 17:11 |
| th1a | OK, so I'm a teacher at Lyceum. | 17:11 |
| aelkner | plugin | 17:11 |
| dwelsh | fine... let's just find a word to describe CanDo, the gradebook | 17:11 |
| th1a | "Application" will do for now. | 17:12 |
| dwelsh | Welsh must go teach a class | 17:12 |
| th1a | That's what a teacher thinks they're doing. | 17:12 |
| th1a | OK, thanks dwelsh! | 17:12 |
| th1a | So I'm a teacher at Lyceum. | 17:12 |
| ignas | th1a: my plan is to keep it customizable enough to allow schools to pick what set of tabs do they want, and what tabs mean for them, rather than enforcing the "tabs are only for applications" thing ... | 17:12 |
| dwelsh | Go with a top row of tabs... it simplifies everything | 17:12 |
| dwelsh | where terms and timetables go is not that important | 17:12 |
| aelkner | i agree | 17:13 |
| th1a | Can we just power through the nomenclature for a minute. | 17:13 |
| th1a | ? | 17:13 |
| ignas | th1a: while making the default set of tabs represent our idea of the schooltool as a platform for "applications" | 17:13 |
| th1a | I'm a teacher at Lyceum. | 17:13 |
| ignas | yes | 17:13 |
| aelkner | let's keep lycem-specific stuff in the second level of tabs | 17:13 |
| ignas | no | 17:13 |
| th1a | aelkner: no. | 17:13 |
| th1a | I log onto SchoolTool at the beginning of class. | 17:13 |
| aelkner | crap | 17:13 |
| aelkner | go ahead | 17:13 |
| th1a | I see my "Journal" tab, among others. | 17:13 |
| th1a | At the top of the screen. | 17:14 |
| th1a | I click on it, and I then see below the top bar whatever ignas wants. | 17:14 |
| aelkner | so ignas can install more than one tab at the top you mean?\ | 17:14 |
| Lumiere | yes | 17:14 |
| aelkner | but not too many | 17:14 |
| Lumiere | ignas can make the top row of tabs | 17:14 |
| Lumiere | whatever he wants | 17:15 |
| th1a | It is his site. | 17:15 |
| ignas | aelkner: yes, all the tabs i want, looking the way I like | 17:15 |
| ignas | precisely | 17:15 |
| aelkner | so we're not agreeing on the navigatiopn are we? | 17:15 |
| th1a | I don't know. | 17:15 |
| th1a | What do you imagine, aelkner? | 17:15 |
| aelkner | i figured that schooltool has a base app, and that cando, lyceum and sla are plugins | 17:16 |
| aelkner | is that true? | 17:16 |
| ignas | not really | 17:16 |
| th1a | Let's focus on what the teacher SEES. | 17:16 |
| ignas | th1a: rather than clicking on journal | 17:16 |
| ignas | th1a: he would click on the "menu" icon next to journal | 17:16 |
| ignas | th1a: to see a quick list of all of his sections | 17:17 |
| ignas | th1a: clicking on journal would show him a view with all of his sections + some additional information maybe | 17:17 |
| th1a | OK, so that's what you meant in reference to the LaunchPad breadcrumbs. | 17:17 |
| ignas | yes | 17:17 |
| th1a | Not breadcrumbs but just making the tabs also menus. | 17:17 |
| ignas | but instead of hover on link that is clickable for 2 seconds | 17:17 |
| ignas | add a button that tells "click me" and you will get a menu | 17:17 |
| Lumiere | 2 seconds is too long | 17:18 |
| ignas | while keping a "link" next to it | 17:18 |
| th1a | ignas: Just like Gmail. | 17:18 |
| ignas | Lumiere: i don't know what the timeout on launchpad breadcrumbs is, but it is totaly unintuitive for me | 17:18 |
| th1a | Like the "more" menu. | 17:18 |
| th1a | Little triangle. | 17:18 |
| ignas | th1a: i don't get more when I click on the triangle :/ | 17:19 |
| ignas | but yes - my idea was to give a menu | 17:19 |
| th1a | That seems fine to me. | 17:19 |
| ignas | i don't know whether you'll want something like that for other tabs or for schooltool | 17:20 |
| ignas | that's why i have moved it to be last items in the list | 17:20 |
| ignas | the crux of my plan is to have the application working in each step, so if we will not have time - it will work, if we will have time, we will have a framework in the end | 17:21 |
| ignas | that we will be able to experiment with | 17:21 |
| th1a | Well, many "applications" apply to several sections, so generally establishing the pattern of clicking on a triangle to get a relevant section list seems like a good idea. | 17:21 |
| ignas | to see where and how can things get improved | 17:21 |
| ignas | aelkner: as for plugins - stapp2008, sla, lyceum and cando are "school setups" | 17:21 |
| ignas | aelkner: schooltool customized to look and act in some particular way | 17:21 |
| aelkner | i don't want that | 17:22 |
| ignas | aelkner: up to changing the data structures, addin new UI elements, anything that the school wants | 17:22 |
| Lumiere | how about this | 17:22 |
| aelkner | i want schooltool to look one way for all schools | 17:22 |
| ignas | aelkner: yes you do, every time you want to change schooltool in a way lyceum would not like - you want *that* | 17:22 |
| Lumiere | we worry about how stapp2008 looks | 17:22 |
| Lumiere | and let everyone else deal with it later | 17:22 |
| ignas | stapp2008 is the way schooltool will look for everyone by default | 17:22 |
| aelkner | but it should allow for additional tabs | 17:23 |
| th1a | aelkner: Yes. | 17:23 |
| ignas | it will allow, it will be a good base | 17:23 |
| th1a | That's the point. | 17:23 |
| ignas | to build your own customizations *on* | 17:23 |
| ignas | so if you like the default look | 17:23 |
| ignas | you can "inherit" from it and customize it only a little bit | 17:23 |
| th1a | You have freedom to do whatever you want, as long as you put it under a tab. | 17:23 |
| ignas | or you can just create a new one | 17:24 |
| aelkner | yes, what you jsut said | 17:24 |
| aelkner | create a new tab | 17:24 |
| aelkner | but i'm looking for what the default tabs are | 17:24 |
| aelkner | that's what we're trying to mock-up | 17:24 |
| aelkner | and the idea is that "Skills" is not a default tab | 17:24 |
| aelkner | it's a cando plugin | 17:25 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:25 |
| aelkner | but the rest of the tabs are for all schools | 17:25 |
| aelkner | the base | 17:25 |
| aelkner | so lyceum would have its own tab | 17:25 |
| th1a | No. | 17:25 |
| aelkner | and jelkner would have his | 17:25 |
| th1a | No. | 17:25 |
| ignas | no, there is no reason why lyceum can't reuse old tabs | 17:25 |
| ignas | or extend them | 17:25 |
| ignas | or change their meaning | 17:25 |
| ignas | that's why we are using Zope | 17:25 |
| aelkner | that's more complex thatn I had in mind | 17:26 |
| th1a | But also, you want the tabs to be task oriented. | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: Lyceum can't use an attendance or gradebook tab (which btw, may not EXIST in some schooltool instances) | 17:26 |
| th1a | You don't want it to take two clicks to get to Lycem > Journal. You just want "Journal" as a top tab. | 17:26 |
| ignas | precisely | 17:26 |
| aelkner | but wait | 17:26 |
| aelkner | why can't Lyceum be its own top-level tab | 17:27 |
| aelkner | give me a sec here | 17:27 |
| ignas | journal will exist in stapp2008, but not in SLA | 17:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: no need for that | 17:27 |
| th1a | It is an extra click. | 17:27 |
| aelkner | not really | 17:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: lyceum is just a small set of customisations | 17:27 |
| aelkner | remember that we have a home | 17:27 |
| th1a | The teacher knows what school they are at. | 17:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: 2-3 views and that's it | 17:27 |
| aelkner | and it does nothing now | 17:27 |
| aelkner | it can do directly to lyceum | 17:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: there is no such functionality that is specific to lyceum that would need a tab | 17:28 |
| aelkner | and journal could be selected by default | 17:28 |
| ignas | aelkner: and journal is in stapp2008spring | 17:28 |
| ignas | aelkner: do we want Lyceum tab in our next release? | 17:28 |
| th1a | It is also possible that "competencies" and "skill drivers" could be top level tabs. | 17:28 |
| aelkner | ignas: i was hoping | 17:28 |
| ignas | no reason why not | 17:28 |
| aelkner | th1a: too many top level tabs | 17:29 |
| ignas | th1a: it's the same amount of code | 17:29 |
| aelkner | there is only so many pixels available | 17:29 |
| aelkner | forget the code | 17:29 |
| aelkner | it's the UI that matters | 17:29 |
| ignas | aelkner: that's why we knowing the set of features available in stapp2008spring | 17:29 |
| ignas | will come up with a set of tabs for stapp2008 | 17:29 |
| ignas | and that's why you will come up with a set of tabs for SLA | 17:29 |
| ignas | and someone will design the UI for cando to have a different set of tabs | 17:30 |
| aelkner | that's not how i envisioned it | 17:30 |
| aelkner | no | 17:30 |
| ignas | the way that is most convenient for each and every school setup | 17:30 |
| ignas | without compromises | 17:30 |
| ignas | to accomodate lithuanian schools ;) | 17:30 |
| aelkner | too complex | 17:30 |
| th1a | I'm afraid you've lost us aelkner. | 17:30 |
| aelkner | look, we need schooltool base to be one thing | 17:30 |
| aelkner | things that all schools will do | 17:31 |
| ignas | aelkner: there is no such set of things | 17:31 |
| aelkner | things that are done differently at lyceum and sla | 17:31 |
| ignas | aelkner: that *all* schools will do | 17:31 |
| aelkner | sure there is | 17:31 |
| aelkner | all schools have persons and sections | 17:31 |
| th1a | In theory, Enrollment and Admin are the only core tabs. | 17:31 |
| ignas | aelkner: lithuanian schools have sections for last 7 years i think, we didn't have such a term before ... | 17:31 |
| ignas | th1a: yes | 17:32 |
| aelkner | hugh? | 17:32 |
| th1a | In practice, it has never been that clear. | 17:32 |
| th1a | clean. | 17:32 |
| ignas | aelkner: we had groups that are not exactly the same as sections | 17:32 |
| ignas | aelkner: something like they have in primary schools i think | 17:32 |
| aelkner | but all schools need the groups | 17:32 |
| aelkner | so that is not a lyceum or sla thing | 17:33 |
| Lumiere | I would suggest calendar is a core piece of schooltool tool | 17:33 |
| Lumiere | err too | 17:33 |
| aelkner | right | 17:33 |
| ignas | Lumiere: i want to get rid of the calendar | 17:33 |
| aelkner | Calendar, Enrollment, Admin | 17:33 |
| ignas | Lumiere: in 2011 ;) | 17:33 |
| ignas | Lumiere: because actually - it is not a core piece | 17:34 |
| ignas | Lumiere: timetabling is more of a core piece | 17:34 |
| th1a | Yes, the next time we start over from scratch ;-) | 17:34 |
| ignas | Lumiere: and calendaring is just a way to look at your timetable | 17:34 |
| th1a | Anyhow... | 17:34 |
| th1a | aelkner: You're losing sight of the teacher's point of view here. | 17:34 |
| aelkner | i know that if dwelsh were paying attention, he';d be frustrated too | 17:34 |
| th1a | They have no idea what "core" SchoolTool looks like, nor do they care. | 17:35 |
| th1a | aelkner: I think you're off on an island on this one. | 17:35 |
| aelkner | first of all, we need to discuss what each type of uyser sees | 17:35 |
| th1a | I don't understand your objection at all. | 17:35 |
| aelkner | i've been saying from the start | 17:35 |
| aelkner | teachers need to see attendance, gradebook, enrollment | 17:36 |
| aelkner | that's about it | 17:36 |
| aelkner | site admins need the admin tab | 17:36 |
| th1a | Calendar? | 17:36 |
| aelkner | yes | 17:36 |
| ignas | aelkner: my point is - we should be designing tabs for stapp2008, because your users are americans ;) and don't really fit with lithuanian usecases | 17:36 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:36 |
| Lumiere | dwelsh is at class | 17:36 |
| Lumiere | btw | 17:37 |
| th1a | Teachers don't need to see the name of their school and have all their customization crammed into secondary tabs. | 17:37 |
| Lumiere | we've been off topic for about 45 minutes now | 17:37 |
| th1a | I would argue that we are at least on topic. | 17:37 |
| aelkner | i'm telling you this is contrary to what dwelsh and i have been mocking up | 17:37 |
| Lumiere | ugh | 17:37 |
| Lumiere | you 3 need to get on a phone call | 17:37 |
| th1a | But there is only one difference, right? | 17:37 |
| Lumiere | and hash this out | 17:38 |
| aelkner | it's a big difference | 17:38 |
| ignas | aelkner: can you tell me what is the difference? | 17:38 |
| th1a | OK... let's look at SLA. | 17:38 |
| th1a | Make this concrete. | 17:38 |
| aelkner | what dwelsh and i assumed | 17:38 |
| aelkner | was that the tabs for schooltool-only stuff would be definable | 17:38 |
| th1a | You've got a narrative report system and CAS. | 17:39 |
| aelkner | yes | 17:39 |
| th1a | You should have a "narrative" tab and a "CAS" tab. | 17:39 |
| aelkner | i'd say no | 17:39 |
| aelkner | i'd have a SLA tab | 17:39 |
| th1a | Yes, but that's just silly. | 17:39 |
| aelkner | and it would have whatever i wnated it to | 17:39 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: you're only adding like 2 things | 17:39 |
| Lumiere | why on earth would you make them unobvious | 17:39 |
| ignas | instead of 1 thing ;) | 17:39 |
| ignas | and as CAS does not need a tab | 17:40 |
| aelkner | if i want my own system of tabs | 17:40 |
| ignas | then why put narative under SLA | 17:40 |
| aelkner | i should feel free to do so under the SLA tab | 17:40 |
| ignas | instead of just narrative | 17:40 |
| ignas | aelkner: and you will be able to | 17:40 |
| ignas | if you want that so much | 17:40 |
| th1a | aelkner: You can do whatever you want, but I don't see the advantage. | 17:40 |
| aelkner | becuase narrative is not an application | 17:40 |
| aelkner | it | 17:40 |
| ignas | aelkner: it is a *thing* that people want to *use* | 17:40 |
| aelkner | it's part of the whole sla thing | 17:40 |
| aelkner | so they uise it | 17:41 |
| aelkner | what's the problem? | 17:41 |
| aelkner | they go to SLA->narricites | 17:41 |
| aelkner | narratives | 17:41 |
| th1a | It is unnecessary hierarchy. | 17:41 |
| aelkner | i think it is necessary | 17:41 |
| aelkner | to devide and concur | 17:41 |
| th1a | Well, you're free to do that. | 17:41 |
| ignas | so we seem to be disagreeing about the top level hierarchy | 17:42 |
| aelkner | yes | 17:42 |
| ignas | aelkner: you think that we only have to use top level for "applications" | 17:42 |
| aelkner | yes | 17:42 |
| aelkner | like google | 17:42 |
| ignas | thus adding artificial divides between schooltool components | 17:42 |
| aelkner | we agreed on that | 17:42 |
| aelkner | yes | 17:42 |
| ignas | and I think that we should have our application organically extendable | 17:42 |
| aelkner | one school doesn't care about another | 17:42 |
| ignas | so we would have plugins and addons that grow on the application | 17:42 |
| ignas | thus can change any part of it to make sense | 17:43 |
| aelkner | i'm not against that | 17:43 |
| aelkner | but | 17:43 |
| th1a | Also, we'd want the "applications" to be individually reusable by other schools. | 17:43 |
| ignas | and top level items are for common taskss | 17:43 |
| ignas | not applications | 17:43 |
| ignas | applications is an artificial term | 17:43 |
| ignas | that users do not care about | 17:43 |
| Lumiere | the top tabs | 17:43 |
| Lumiere | should be the 5 things | 17:43 |
| Lumiere | you expect teachers to do | 17:43 |
| Lumiere | or admins or whoever | 17:43 |
| ignas | they are using "schooltool" not "schooltool calendar" "schooltool mail" "schooltool blog reader" | 17:43 |
| Lumiere | period | 17:43 |
| ignas | and schooltool has "journal" "calendaring" "timetables" "admin" for lyceum | 17:44 |
| Lumiere | that will be different at every school (with overlap) | 17:44 |
| ignas | "attendance" "gradebook" "enrollment" "admin" for SLA | 17:44 |
| aelkner | this is totally different than what th1a , dwelsh and aelkner agreed | 17:44 |
| Lumiere | no | 17:44 |
| Lumiere | it is not | 17:44 |
| th1a | It isn't. | 17:44 |
| Lumiere | it is an extension of it | 17:44 |
| Lumiere | it's the logical progression of it | 17:45 |
| aelkner | th1a: we didn't discuss this at all | 17:45 |
| aelkner | dwlesh will be surprised i'm sure | 17:45 |
| th1a | And as we discuss this it is more clear to me that I really don't want you designing a suite of applications for SLA that can't be separated. | 17:46 |
| th1a | If another school wants narrative reports, they shouldn't have an "SLA" tab. | 17:46 |
| aelkner | but that's exactly the poijnt | 17:46 |
| aelkner | they WILL be separate | 17:46 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: wrong context | 17:47 |
| aelkner | th1a: good point | 17:47 |
| aelkner | why not have them in SLA tab for now | 17:47 |
| aelkner | later, the code could be moved to schooltool | 17:47 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: because it is horrid design | 17:47 |
| th1a | Because I can't think of why I'd want that at all. | 17:47 |
| aelkner | so why do you bring it up? | 17:48 |
| Lumiere | because you won't let the SLa tab go | 17:48 |
| th1a | I can't think of why they'd want an SLA tab! | 17:48 |
| aelkner | why not | 17:48 |
| aelkner | it's no harm | 17:49 |
| th1a | It is like if Google had "Documents" under "Writely," because that's who developed it. | 17:49 |
| th1a | And Photos under "Picasa" | 17:49 |
| th1a | It is archaeology. | 17:49 |
| aelkner | First | 17:49 |
| ignas | th1a: so - what do you think of my plan? any additional things or should i expect us to try following it during the spring and elaborate on the steps? | 17:49 |
| ignas | th1a: or should i just wait... | 17:50 |
| th1a | I think we can bring all these things together. | 17:50 |
| aelkner | So, narratives are not part of schooltool | 17:50 |
| aelkner | only sla cares about them | 17:50 |
| th1a | I bought a book called "Paper Prototyping" and some posterboard, markers, restickable tape, sharp scissors, etc. | 17:50 |
| th1a | aelkner: I'm not paying you to write stuff that only SLA will ever use. | 17:51 |
| aelkner | you didn't give me a chance to finish | 17:51 |
| th1a | So I'll be making some drawings and taking pictures this afternoon. | 17:51 |
| th1a | aelkner: proceed. | 17:51 |
| aelkner | eventually, we will have a reason to make narratives a part of schooltool proper | 17:51 |
| aelkner | but only after we decide that all schools will want it | 17:52 |
| aelkner | and where it should go in the base app | 17:52 |
| aelkner | but SLA's special stuff that's not part of the base app | 17:52 |
| aelkner | should be in its own tab | 17:52 |
| th1a | What does "where it should go in the base app" mean? | 17:52 |
| th1a | It should go in a tab. | 17:52 |
| ignas | aelkner: my point is - whenever more than 1 school will want it - it should become an egg, and look like it is a part of schooltool | 17:53 |
| Lumiere | ok, back... | 17:53 |
| ignas | all schools wanting it is not necessary to make it a component | 17:53 |
| ignas | that any school can use | 17:53 |
| th1a | Looking like a part of schooltool = being in a tab. | 17:53 |
| ignas | just like with schooltool.lyceum.journal you can use it, or you can *not* use it | 17:53 |
| ignas | th1a: things like notes don't need a tab | 17:53 |
| ignas | th1a: different components extend schooltool differently | 17:53 |
| th1a | ignas: Yes. | 17:54 |
| ignas | th1a: some of them will make a sense being a tab | 17:54 |
| aelkner | we need to have a base app | 17:54 |
| th1a | But narratives fits the task/application paradigm. | 17:54 |
| aelkner | one that all schools will see | 17:54 |
| Lumiere | no we don't | 17:54 |
| Lumiere | in fact, we can not | 17:54 |
| aelkner | Lumiere: where's welsh? | 17:54 |
| Lumiere | in class | 17:54 |
| Lumiere | and he'll agree with me | 17:54 |
| aelkner | great, that helps | 17:54 |
| th1a | I don't think dwelsh will bail you out. | 17:54 |
| ignas | yes, and the base app because of some design mistakes is "terms, sections, courses, timetables, calendars, persons, groups, resources" | 17:55 |
| ignas | but that is not because we want that | 17:55 |
| ignas | that's because we didn't manage to design it better :( | 17:55 |
| Lumiere | ignas: right now the base app could be boiled down to calendar, person, group, resources | 17:55 |
| Lumiere | I think | 17:55 |
| ignas | Lumiere: nope :( | 17:55 |
| Lumiere | that would be 'schoolbell' | 17:55 |
| ignas | Lumiere: sorry, but it would require a week or two of work | 17:55 |
| th1a | From a user's point of view, the "base app" might be a dashboard page. | 17:55 |
| aelkner | so we should have one tab at the top for each type of object | 17:56 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: no | 17:56 |
| aelkner | that shouldn't cause realestate problems! | 17:56 |
| th1a | That's exactly what we're trying to get away from. | 17:56 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: drop the sarcasm | 17:56 |
| Lumiere | <_< | 17:56 |
| th1a | Exactly. | 17:56 |
| aelkner | ignas: what would the top level tabs be at lycem? | 17:56 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: look up | 17:56 |
| Lumiere | he anwered it | 17:56 |
| ignas | depends on the person looking at it | 17:56 |
| Lumiere | the top level tabs are the few things you need to do | 17:57 |
| aelkner | start with admin | 17:57 |
| ignas | teachers would get "journal" "calendar" probably | 17:57 |
| Lumiere | at your school | 17:57 |
| aelkner | journal?! | 17:57 |
| ignas | yes journal | 17:57 |
| aelkner | what journal? | 17:57 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: journal -> gradebook | 17:57 |
| ignas | the "attendance + gradebook" thingie | 17:57 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:57 |
| ignas | some teachers | 17:57 |
| ignas | that are school administrators or group leaders | 17:57 |
| ignas | will get "attendance" tab | 17:57 |
| ignas | to manage their own students | 17:57 |
| ignas | because only they can process attendance explanations | 17:58 |
| aelkner | so let's take that person | 17:58 |
| aelkner | what are the total top level tabs? | 17:58 |
| ignas | students will get "gradebook" "calendar" "timetable" tabs probably | 17:58 |
| aelkner | gradebook is not what students see | 17:58 |
| aelkner | they don't grade | 17:58 |
| aelkner | tthey only see their own grades | 17:59 |
| ignas | aelkner: gradebook is the way the small book | 17:59 |
| ignas | that students own | 17:59 |
| ignas | and carry around | 17:59 |
| ignas | with grades | 17:59 |
| ignas | called in lithuania | 17:59 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: this is why there is no set of tabs we have to have | 17:59 |
| ignas | and that just underlines the point there is no "BASE" school | 17:59 |
| Lumiere | everywhere has different words | 17:59 |
| Lumiere | and different ways they do things | 17:59 |
| ignas | enrollment when translated into lithuanian just does not make sense as a tab :/ | 17:59 |
| ignas | we just don't think about these tasks the same way | 18:00 |
| ignas | because of a different vocabulary | 18:00 |
| th1a | Also, you can use tabs differently if you know that no teachers are also students. | 18:00 |
| aelkner | look, i conceed that these are all good points | 18:01 |
| aelkner | but not in line with what we mocked-up | 18:01 |
| aelkner | so we're not even starting from the same point | 18:01 |
| ignas | yep, that's what mockups are about | 18:01 |
| ignas | you can throw away mockups ;) | 18:01 |
| aelkner | that's fine | 18:01 |
| aelkner | so we need to make a new one | 18:02 |
| th1a | There isn't that big of a difference. | 18:02 |
| th1a | What you were doing was perhaps a bit less universal than you thought. | 18:02 |
| aelkner | indeed | 18:02 |
| th1a | But I knew that all along. | 18:03 |
| th1a | And it is not really a problem. | 18:03 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: think of the mockup as a possible end look | 18:03 |
| Lumiere | one of Aleph-naught possibilities ;) | 18:04 |
| aelkner | I think of the mock-up as an agreement as to how the app should look\ | 18:04 |
| aelkner | and we don't seam to have an agreement | 18:05 |
| aelkner | so should we have different mockups for the different schools? | 18:05 |
| Lumiere | no | 18:05 |
| Lumiere | we should have a mockup of the style of schooltool | 18:05 |
| aelkner | one for SLA, one for cando, one for jelkner-gradebook, one for lyceum | 18:05 |
| Lumiere | with the understanding that the tabs can change | 18:05 |
| ignas | we can, but who would draw a better lyceum mockup that Bronius Skūpas and I | 18:05 |
| th1a | Going from what we have now to having tabs is a big step. | 18:06 |
| th1a | And a major improvement. | 18:06 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: this is a point, where your need for an exact mockup is quite impossible | 18:06 |
| ignas | we can work on them just to distill a common base, if that would help | 18:06 |
| ignas | but the base is quite clear, "Admin" ;) | 18:06 |
| th1a | ignas: I don't think that's necessary. | 18:06 |
| Lumiere | ignas: that isn't even clear | 18:06 |
| Lumiere | teachers and students shouldn't get admin ;) | 18:06 |
| ignas | true | 18:06 |
| ignas | they'll get "School" in lyceum probably | 18:07 |
| ignas | so i would have a place for school terms school timetables | 18:07 |
| ignas | and school calendar maybe | 18:07 |
| aelkner | th1a: but what tabs? saying we have tabs and defining what they are is two different things | 18:07 |
| Lumiere | <_< | 18:07 |
| aelkner | if they will be different for each school | 18:07 |
| th1a | We can define default tabs. | 18:07 |
| aelkner | then so b it | 18:07 |
| Lumiere | the point is to define the st2008app tabs | 18:08 |
| Lumiere | and let every other instance | 18:08 |
| th1a | There will be a generic SchoolTool. | 18:08 |
| Lumiere | define them however the hell they want | 18:08 |
| Lumiere | and it isn't your problem | 18:08 |
| aelkner | Lumiere: that's not helping | 18:08 |
| aelkner | th1a: what is generic schooltool | 18:09 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: st2008app = generic schooltool | 18:09 |
| th1a | More like 2t2009app. | 18:09 |
| ignas | to me it is - the default configuration we are releasing with | 18:09 |
| aelkner | forget naming it, what does it have as the tabs? | 18:09 |
| th1a | When I do "apt-get install schooltool" in ibex, I'll get something. | 18:09 |
| ignas | aelkner: we should design that during the sprint, the schooltool2008 one | 18:10 |
| ignas | aelkner: without pretension that it will work for everyone | 18:10 |
| th1a | I would say "Home" "Calendar" "Grades" "Attendance" "Enrollment" "Admin" | 18:10 |
| th1a | But yes, this is what we'll do at EuroPython. | 18:10 |
| aelkner | th1a: good | 18:10 |
| aelkner | so you think we can add three more tabs to that for lyceum for instance? | 18:10 |
| ignas | th1a: we have journal as the default component in stapp now | 18:11 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: they don't need to | 18:11 |
| ignas | aelkner: i will remove half of the tabs for lyceum | 18:11 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: they will remove grades attendance and enrollment | 18:11 |
| ignas | aelkner: and change the other half | 18:11 |
| th1a | Well, "journal" will have to become "attendance" | 18:11 |
| Lumiere | and replace them with what he needs | 18:11 |
| th1a | Or something like that. | 18:11 |
| Lumiere | th1a: internationalization can deal with that | 18:11 |
| Lumiere | the lt translation can say Journal and the en translation can say Attendance | 18:11 |
| th1a | It is not a big problem. | 18:12 |
| Lumiere | *presses the easy button* | 18:12 |
| aelkner | It is a big problem | 18:12 |
| aelkner | the problem being, vagueness | 18:12 |
| aelkner | we should have a list of tabs scenarios for each possibility | 18:13 |
| th1a | In a perfect world, by default you're apt-getting a meta-package which has a minimal core and by default installs gradebook attendance, etc. as separate packages. | 18:13 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: it is only vague to you | 18:13 |
| ignas | aelkner: this is the decision that we can postpone until the sprint i think | 18:13 |
| aelkner | Lumiere: you're starting to make me mad | 18:13 |
| ignas | aelkner: in the end of my proposed changes we will have a framework | 18:13 |
| th1a | aelkner just has a different picture in his head than the rest of us. | 18:13 |
| ignas | aelkner: that will allow us to move tabs around | 18:13 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: I'm sorry about that, but I think everyone else has the same view at this point | 18:13 |
| ignas | while keeping the application working | 18:14 |
| aelkner | i don't see a mockup for this | 18:14 |
| aelkner | welsh and i made a mockup | 18:14 |
| aelkner | and it does not adress this | 18:14 |
| th1a | I'll make a mockup today. | 18:14 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: th1a will be drawing something up | 18:15 |
| aelkner | something that we can click through? | 18:15 |
| aelkner | that's what welsh and i have been trying to do | 18:15 |
| ignas | making it look some way is the easy part, designing it so it would not require rewriting 100% of schooltool functional tests and keep 100% of tasks that you could do still doable is a bit more difficult :/ | 18:15 |
| th1a | ignas: That is a good point. | 18:15 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: if I have to make an html version I will | 18:16 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: but it shouldn't be needed | 18:16 |
| * th1a is drawing pictures. | 18:16 | |
| ignas | th1a: a question - are we planning to have 2 level tab hierarchy? | 18:17 |
| th1a | That's definitely out. | 18:17 |
| th1a | As a global architectural feature. | 18:17 |
| ignas | th1a: so doing what aelkner wants will probably be not be possible | 18:17 |
| ignas | th1a: as in SLA -> Narrative | 18:17 |
| ignas | at least easily doing that | 18:18 |
| th1a | He can just do it. | 18:18 |
| ignas | not really :/ at least not at the moment | 18:18 |
| th1a | I mean, he doesn't have to make it pluggable for his own needs. | 18:18 |
| th1a | Can't he just code a macro? | 18:18 |
| ignas | in that sense - yes | 18:18 |
| aelkner | The top level tabs could be Persons Courses Sections Groups Narratives CSAP Calenafar Attendance | 18:18 |
| aelkner | I could think of twntry more | 18:18 |
| aelkner | twenty | 18:19 |
| aelkner | If we want only one level of tabs | 18:19 |
| th1a | The entire point of this project is to get rid the idea of navigating by objects. | 18:19 |
| th1a | I think we've exhausted this conversation for now. | 18:19 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: for SLA it would be Calendar Sections (Narritave RC, CSAP) Admin | 18:19 |
| Lumiere | the narritave and CSAP show for those who need it | 18:20 |
| aelkner | Everyone at SLA needs it | 18:20 |
| Lumiere | admin is people, groups, courses making it | 18:20 |
| Lumiere | fine | 18:20 |
| Lumiere | then it shows for all | 18:20 |
| Lumiere | it's still only 5 tabs | 18:20 |
| Lumiere | sections can deal with attendance and grades | 18:20 |
| Lumiere | or you can separate it out | 18:21 |
| aelkner | sections taght versus sections attended for instance | 18:21 |
| Lumiere | to attendance \/ and grades \/ like ignas is doing for lyceum | 18:21 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: you don't ever have that at SLA | 18:21 |
| Lumiere | or am I insane | 18:21 |
| aelkner | what do you mean? | 18:21 |
| th1a | You can have second level tabs, SchoolTool just is not going to provide a pluggable framework for them. | 18:21 |
| Lumiere | at least, it isn't for now | 18:22 |
| th1a | Right. | 18:22 |
| * ignas is thinking how to do that at the moment | 18:22 | |
| ignas | but i'd need to see a mockup of what precisely aelkner wants | 18:22 |
| Lumiere | that second level of tabs should have a standard way of doing them (for cando/whoever) | 18:22 |
| ignas | to see if i can fit it in without doing too work ... | 18:23 |
| aelkner | what aelkner wants is to devide the top level tabs by task | 18:23 |
| * th1a is going to take a shower, get lunch, and draw some pictures. | 18:23 | |
| ignas | Lumiere: should - yes, but i am not sure we will manage to implement it this sprint... | 18:23 |
| ignas | aelkner: sorry, i am really more of a visual thinker :/ | 18:23 |
| ignas | aelkner: i would like to see your navigation hierarchy | 18:24 |
| th1a | aelkner: Yes, everyone does, which is why we don't want a top level "SLA" tab. | 18:24 |
| Lumiere | ignas: understood | 18:24 |
| ignas | i understand the need to collapse some tasks under one tab | 18:24 |
| ignas | it will be a common thing to do i'd assume | 18:24 |
| aelkner | ok, i can see the possibility of SLA's installation installing narratives under the Sections's Taught tab | 18:25 |
| Lumiere | yes, but that tab should be for small stuff | 18:25 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: exactly | 18:25 |
| th1a | aelkner: The task is writing or reading a narrative. | 18:25 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: the goal is to organize things by where people will naturally look | 18:25 |
| ignas | so we might want to have it easy to do | 18:25 |
| Lumiere | an SLA tab isn't natural | 18:25 |
| aelkner | fine, we'll drop the SLA tab | 18:26 |
| th1a | OK... now we're getting somewhere. | 18:26 |
| ignas | th1a: my point is - we might want to have 2 levels of tabs or at least 2 levels of navigation hierarchy, but i'd rather think about it after we finish the tasks that i have drawn up... | 18:26 |
| aelkner | so we need the teacher to navagate to a placve where all if their sections taught are tabs | 18:26 |
| th1a | ignas: We're on the same page with that. | 18:26 |
| aelkner | and then they choose what they want to do with the section? | 18:27 |
| Lumiere | I'm out | 18:27 |
| Lumiere | I need a shower | 18:27 |
| Lumiere | and I gotta go into work. | 18:27 |
| th1a | bye Lumiere. | 18:27 |
| ignas | th1a: i'd actually make the second level navigation *live* under the menu tabs | 18:27 |
| ignas | th1a: at least at first | 18:27 |
| th1a | aelkner: You could implement it that way if you wanted. | 18:27 |
| ignas | so you expand the section menu | 18:27 |
| ignas | and see narratives + stuff | 18:27 |
| ignas | or something like that | 18:27 |
| ignas | instead of a section list | 18:27 |
| aelkner | we need to start from sctions taght versus sections attended | 18:28 |
| aelkner | i know that sla teachers also attend classes | 18:28 |
| aelkner | so there's already an application for that | 18:28 |
| aelkner | wbrady also has a need for that at jelkner's school | 18:28 |
| aelkner | so is the user starts by choosing which sections | 18:29 |
| aelkner | then we have a context for the rest | 18:29 |
| th1a | Generally speaking, we're not focusing on section-based navigation, we're focusing on task based navigation. | 18:29 |
| th1a | So if I click on "grades" I get a go page which has sections taught or attended. | 18:29 |
| aelkner | there's a difference between viewing one's own narrative report card and creating one for one's student | 18:30 |
| th1a | And perhaps if I click on the triangle next to it I get a pop up menu of same. | 18:30 |
| ignas | i am focusing on "only changing the navigation" without changing any views, and we don't have a section view specific for grading at the moment :/ | 18:30 |
| th1a | Right, that's why we have the go page. | 18:30 |
| th1a | Sorting out the rest of that is up to the task's implementation. | 18:30 |
| aelkner | I think the teacher should be able to stear the app according to the difference between the sections they teach and the sections they attend | 18:32 |
| aelkner | the tasks are different for each | 18:32 |
| th1a | Steer the app? | 18:32 |
| aelkner | they decide what to adress | 18:32 |
| aelkner | by clicking on 'Sections Taught' | 18:33 |
| aelkner | now they've told the app what the context is | 18:33 |
| ignas | out of scope for the sprint i am afraid :/ | 18:33 |
| aelkner | and the app can deliver the best UI for that | 18:33 |
| ignas | i mean - the ideas are good | 18:33 |
| ignas | but we won't be able to implement it that fast | 18:33 |
| ignas | in a sane manner | 18:33 |
| th1a | It is the whole question of two dimensional navigation. | 18:33 |
| th1a | I'd just like to get navigation right in the task-oriented path. | 18:34 |
| th1a | We can think about the section-oriented path later. | 18:34 |
| aelkner | We should think about what a teacher wants | 18:34 |
| th1a | But basically, "I need to do my grades in all my sections" is more common than "I need to do all my tasks in this section." | 18:34 |
| aelkner | true | 18:35 |
| aelkner | all my sections taught that is | 18:35 |
| aelkner | so 'Sections Taught' as top level | 18:35 |
| aelkner | Gradebook Attendance | 18:35 |
| aelkner | as second level | 18:36 |
| th1a | No. | 18:36 |
| aelkner | under gradobook tab is a list of tabs for each section | 18:36 |
| ignas | 3 levels of tabs? | 18:36 |
| th1a | That is reasonable. | 18:36 |
| th1a | No... | 18:36 |
| aelkner | yes | 18:36 |
| th1a | You're getting too caught up in your teaching/student use case. | 18:36 |
| aelkner | the top level is not a tab | 18:36 |
| aelkner | it's a link | 18:37 |
| ignas | and under tabs for each section tabs for every term and under every term tabs for every month :/ | 18:37 |
| aelkner | right now jelkner's gradebook has | 18:37 |
| aelkner | tabs for each section | 18:37 |
| aelkner | in the current section there is a pulldown to select the worksheet | 18:37 |
| aelkner | there could be a pulldown to select the term similarly | 18:38 |
| ignas | so having a section menu does not make sense | 18:38 |
| ignas | for aelkner's gradebook | 18:38 |
| ignas | under the gradebook tab it seems | 18:38 |
| aelkner | If I go to Section's Taught -> Gradebook | 18:39 |
| aelkner | I should see the sections as tabs | 18:39 |
| th1a | One thing we're trying to do here is get away from a hierarchical navigation system as the fundamental way of interacting with SchoolTool. | 18:39 |
| ignas | that's the difference | 18:39 |
| aelkner | If I go to Secitons Taught -> Atendance | 18:39 |
| th1a | We aren't trying to create a deep hierarchy of tabs. | 18:39 |
| aelkner | i should see the sections as tabs | 18:39 |
| ignas | for lyceum it's more convenient to have Sections taught -> list of sections -> gradebook | 18:39 |
| th1a | aelkner: Teacher/Students are an edge case. | 18:40 |
| th1a | The UI shouldn't be built around them. | 18:40 |
| th1a | I would say, I click on "grades" | 18:40 |
| aelkner | do you mean teachers that are also students? | 18:40 |
| th1a | I get "sections taught" and "sections attended" | 18:40 |
| th1a | if I click on a section I teach, I go to my teacher's gradebook, which has tabs to all the sections I teach. | 18:41 |
| th1a | If I click on a section I attend, I go to my set of student views. | 18:41 |
| th1a | But I'm not plowing though a sequence of tabs. | 18:41 |
| ignas | as we already have a view that lists all the sections | 18:42 |
| ignas | both that you attend and you teach | 18:42 |
| ignas | showing it after a click on sections | 18:42 |
| ignas | kind of makes sense | 18:42 |
| ignas | and a list is not that much worse than tabs | 18:42 |
| ignas | especially if you can go back to the list clicking sections again | 18:42 |
| ignas | though it seems that we are optimizing for different scenarious | 18:43 |
| th1a | A list is better than tabs if you've got piles of tabs. | 18:43 |
| ignas | one way it is easier to change to another section without going back | 18:43 |
| th1a | Right, we don't need to optimize for people who are both students and teachers. | 18:43 |
| ignas | other way shows less navigation UI elements on the screen | 18:43 |
| ignas | at the same time | 18:43 |
| th1a | In general, I'd say for something like a gradebook you should have tabs for each relevant section so you can switch that way. | 18:44 |
| aelkner | sorry i got a phone call | 18:44 |
| aelkner | this is a useful discussion | 18:44 |
| ignas | th1a: makes sense, that's why in lyceum section journals are in the top level menu for teachers | 18:44 |
| aelkner | we should nail this down | 18:44 |
| th1a | I'm feeling pretty well nailed. | 18:45 |
| aelkner | th1a: i'm feeling pretty well unsure what anythoing is going to look like | 18:45 |
| th1a | I think it is picture time. | 18:46 |
| aelkner | th1a: pictures are fine | 18:46 |
| th1a | Well shower/lunch time, actually. | 18:46 |
| ignas | aelkner: i am just making sure i can implement my usecases without complicating everything too much, if you would explain to me what do you want to do with SLA i will try making it as easy to do it your way as I can... | 18:46 |
| *** pcardune has joined #schooltool | 18:46 | |
| th1a | pcardune! Just in time ;-) | 18:46 |
| aelkner | th1a: you talk about reducing clicks | 18:47 |
| aelkner | that's why we have tabs | 18:47 |
| aelkner | then you talk about having too many tabs | 18:47 |
| aelkner | that's why we have go views | 18:47 |
| aelkner | so where do we optimize these concepts | 18:48 |
| pcardune | th1a: hi | 18:48 |
| pcardune | th1a: btw, I got my pycon plane ticket | 18:48 |
| th1a | Ah, good. | 18:48 |
| ignas | aelkner: I am optimizing it so we could have it both ways | 18:48 |
| aelkner | when can we see a mockup of this? | 18:48 |
| ignas | aelkner: because I don't think we can reach a compromise among lyceum teachers and SLA teachers without them ever talking to each other | 18:48 |
| aelkner | SLA teachers are used to moodle which sucks | 18:49 |
| aelkner | so they will be happy with anything we come up with | 18:49 |
| aelkner | but I want it to be optimum | 18:49 |
| aelkner | and the mockup should be complete | 18:49 |
| aelkner | we can't code without having a complete view of what the UI will look like | 18:50 |
| ignas | we can actually | 18:50 |
| ignas | that was my plan | 18:50 |
| th1a | That's the point of pluggable tabs. | 18:50 |
| aelkner | and coming up with this complete view is part of the task of reducing the complxity | 18:50 |
| ignas | complexity is on both sides - UI and code | 18:50 |
| aelkner | what tabs are we talking about plugging here? | 18:50 |
| ignas | "attendance" "gradebook" "journal" | 18:51 |
| aelkner | where does the Narrative Report Cards tab get plugged? | 18:51 |
| th1a | But also part of reducing the complexity is in changing the existing structure as little as possible while achieving our basic goal. | 18:51 |
| th1a | aelkner: I'd say right on top. | 18:51 |
| th1a | But I guess one of the fundamental questions here is whether the top level tabs are categories or tasks. | 18:52 |
| aelkner | so I'm already grading a section, and I need to go to a different top-level tab and renavigate to the smae section?! | 18:52 |
| th1a | you could argue for grades > narrative | 18:52 |
| aelkner | still, i need to renavigate | 18:52 |
| th1a | aelkner: You only do narratives a few times. | 18:52 |
| ignas | aelkner: i am trying to reach a compromise between the non existing ideal that we want and the code that we have | 18:52 |
| th1a | In reality, you'd probably use two browser windows in any case. | 18:53 |
| ignas | aelkner: yes you will have to renavigate, we will not do 2 dimensional navigation | 18:53 |
| ignas | 2d navigation would require too many changes to other schooltool modules | 18:53 |
| ignas | to work properly | 18:53 |
| ignas | and i know - i have tried implementing it once already | 18:53 |
| th1a | I guess if you include roles it is three dimensional navigation: section / task / role. | 18:54 |
| ignas | th1a: and date | 18:54 |
| ignas | th1a: you forgot the date | 18:54 |
| th1a | Yes. | 18:54 |
| ignas | and it's not just sections | 18:54 |
| ignas | you need that for persons too | 18:54 |
| ignas | and groups | 18:54 |
| th1a | Time is the fourth dimension. | 18:55 |
| aelkner | haha | 18:55 |
| ignas | because if you don't need to go up for sections | 18:55 |
| ignas | you suddenly don't want to go up for persons too | 18:55 |
| th1a | So we can't get caught up in trying to do everything at once. | 18:55 |
| ignas | and then it becomes apparent that 90% of schooltool views were programmed with a teree->leaf model not 4d model of navigation in mind :/ | 18:55 |
| aelkner | Let's think about what a teacher does physically each day | 18:56 |
| aelkner | He sits in his classroom | 18:56 |
| aelkner | and the beel rings | 18:56 |
| aelkner | bell | 18:56 |
| aelkner | it's time to move onto the next section | 18:56 |
| aelkner | so wouldn't it be nice for him to click on a tab for that section | 18:56 |
| ignas | in lyceum he just clicks on the journal menu, and clicks on the section that just came in | 18:57 |
| aelkner | and have everything he want sto do for that section | 18:57 |
| th1a | That's not really how teachers work. | 18:57 |
| aelkner | be in the same place? | 18:57 |
| ignas | because he only needs journal for the lesson | 18:57 |
| th1a | Exactly. | 18:57 |
| ignas | and he won't do anything else during the lesson | 18:57 |
| aelkner | he won't grade? | 18:57 |
| ignas | journal is the gradebook+attendance | 18:57 |
| ignas | so yes - he will grade and do attendance | 18:57 |
| aelkner | fine | 18:58 |
| aelkner | that's all i'm talking about | 18:58 |
| th1a | But even so, you generally don't grade assignments during class, unless you're a hack. | 18:58 |
| ignas | th1a: or you like torturing students | 18:58 |
| ignas | making them present reports against the class | 18:58 |
| ignas | or want to check their homework | 18:58 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 18:58 |
| ignas | and i guess in american model | 18:59 |
| aelkner | yes, check their homework | 18:59 |
| ignas | you only need attendance during the class | 18:59 |
| ignas | most of the time | 18:59 |
| aelkner | jelkner thinks otherwise | 18:59 |
| th1a | I mean, it is not an impossible case. We can assume people have a tabbed browser at this point, more or less, though. | 18:59 |
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| aelkner | he likes the section tabs | 18:59 |
| aelkner | and he doesn't even have attendance yet | 18:59 |
| aelkner | he likes to grade things in class | 18:59 |
| aelkner | like quizes | 18:59 |
| aelkner | and homework | 18:59 |
| ignas | aelkner: but you should not assume that everyone will like them, or need them | 19:00 |
| th1a | I'm not saying it is not desirable. | 19:00 |
| th1a | But it is definitely not going to happen at PyCon. | 19:00 |
| aelkner | if it's not undesirable | 19:00 |
| th1a | It is a very complex change. | 19:00 |
| aelkner | then we could provide it | 19:00 |
| ignas | that's why most of the features lyceum needs are not in schooltool, unless tom wants them, because i am trying to be non-invasive very very hard, because I just have no idea what everyone else needs :/ | 19:00 |
| th1a | We could, but there are lots of complex things we could provide. | 19:01 |
| ignas | even after spending so much time discussing stuff with Tom, i still don't really know how US schools work | 19:01 |
| th1a | Nor do I understand Lithuanian schools ;-) | 19:01 |
| ignas | so any assumption about convenience is probably false if i am making it according to lyceum feature requests | 19:01 |
| th1a | Unfortunately, I don't think I know a high school principal in Chicago or we could visit one. | 19:02 |
| th1a | aelkner: I guess my real point here is that I have tried to work out how to do the two-dimensional navigation, and it is just really, really hard. | 19:02 |
| th1a | I mean, it is part of the reason the UI sprint two years ago crapped out. | 19:02 |
| th1a | Basically, you need a system to keep track of what section you're looking at and then when you switch tasks knows where to put you in that task. | 19:03 |
| th1a | I mean, it is not really, really hard, but it is time consuming. | 19:03 |
| th1a | Non-trivial. | 19:03 |
| th1a | Creates lots of edge cases. | 19:03 |
| aelkner | May I suggest and then you tell me what you think? | 19:04 |
| th1a | Go ahead. | 19:04 |
| aelkner | Top level tabs Home .... Sections Taught ... | 19:04 |
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| aelkner | Under Sections Taught, the schooltool logo and grey bar | 19:04 |
| aelkner | visually deviding the look | 19:05 |
| aelkner | under brey bar, the sections as tabs | 19:05 |
| aelkner | grey bar | 19:05 |
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| aelkner | click on a section, that's the context | 19:05 |
| aelkner | under the section tabs, a row of tabs for task | 19:06 |
| aelkner | click on the gradebook, that's what you get | 19:06 |
| aelkner | click on Attendance, you get that | 19:06 |
| aelkner | even the Section's taught tab can be default for the teacher | 19:06 |
| aelkner | configurable by the admin | 19:06 |
| aelkner | so the teacher signs in | 19:07 |
| aelkner | they are already at the sections taught tab and see their sections as tabs | 19:07 |
| aelkner | they click on one and work with it | 19:07 |
| aelkner | done! | 19:07 |
| aelkner | two clicks | 19:07 |
| aelkner | one for the section, one for the task | 19:07 |
| th1a | "Sections Taught" is one of two top level tabs? | 19:08 |
| aelkner | yes | 19:08 |
| aelkner | i'd conceed that | 19:08 |
| aelkner | if it solves the too many clicks problem | 19:08 |
| th1a | Nobody was arguing for that. | 19:08 |
| ignas | so we need and will have to add - a special person section container, ability to configure tabs, ability to register context specific viewlets for actions that would be displayed without context being available ... | 19:08 |
| th1a | Here's my current scenario: | 19:08 |
| aelkner | and also solves the devide sections taught from sections attended | 19:08 |
| th1a | I click on the triangle next to attendance, see my sections taught pop up, pick the right one. | 19:09 |
| aelkner | ignas: i don';t follow | 19:09 |
| ignas | and we will have to redesign the navigation for section scheduling and section calendars as well | 19:09 |
| aelkner | I don't like the triangle idea | 19:09 |
| ignas | aelkner: i am considering changes to the system that we will have to implement | 19:09 |
| aelkner | people don't know to click on it | 19:09 |
| ignas | aelkner: to make your idea work | 19:09 |
| th1a | Well, then they can use the go page. | 19:10 |
| aelkner | Look, the home page can be a go page | 19:10 |
| th1a | Indeed. | 19:10 |
| aelkner | And have a sentence that correspnds to each top-lvel tab | 19:10 |
| th1a | So we don't need to complexify this. | 19:10 |
| aelkner | but the go page is only to make it easy to start using the app | 19:11 |
| aelkner | the app teaching the user so to speak | 19:11 |
| th1a | OK... I am now going to take a shower. | 19:11 |
| aelkner | but we need to have the user be able to get where they are going quickly | 19:11 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 19:11 | |
| ignas | aelkner: how would you collect the tasks that teacher can perform on the sections, how would you make it pluggable? | 19:12 |
| ignas | aelkner: how would you split them among tasks that user can do on taught and attended sections? | 19:12 |
| aelkner | ignas: your point is well taken | 19:12 |
| ignas | without having any sections as a "context" for the lookup | 19:12 |
| aelkner | but i doh;t think this is as hard as you make it out to be | 19:12 |
| aelkner | if you think of the abs as a shell | 19:13 |
| aelkner | and the page macro would handle the shell | 19:13 |
| ignas | aelkner: have you seen how our old attendance looks like? | 19:13 |
| aelkner | the view itself would be localhost:/sections/1/gradebook | 19:13 |
| aelkner | the view itself would be localhost:/sections/1/attendance? | 19:13 |
| aelkner | the shell would be able to look at the request | 19:14 |
| aelkner | to see what tab to highlight | 19:14 |
| aelkner | but that's the shell's problem | 19:14 |
| aelkner | and not a big one | 19:14 |
| aelkner | the views themselves don't need to change | 19:14 |
| aelkner | we just need the page macro to be smart | 19:14 |
| ignas | another point is - i don't want it in lyceum | 19:15 |
| aelkner | so the shell would detect the plugins | 19:15 |
| aelkner | and render the tabs accordingly | 19:15 |
| ignas | "detect" | 19:15 |
| ignas | "plugins" | 19:15 |
| ignas | ? | 19:15 |
| aelkner | we could have a convention for registering tabs | 19:15 |
| aelkner | so that lyceum would register an interface | 19:15 |
| ignas | emm | 19:16 |
| aelkner | and the page macro would pick it up | 19:16 |
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| aelkner | and render the tab accordingly | 19:16 |
| ignas | you are making it more and more complicated with every sentence | 19:16 |
| aelkner | funny you say that | 19:16 |
| aelkner | i see as simple | 19:16 |
| ignas | everything that requires changing every single schooltool module | 19:16 |
| ignas | is not simple | 19:16 |
| aelkner | i'm not sure why anything would need to change in the modules | 19:17 |
| aelkner | the views should not care about the tabs | 19:17 |
| ignas | well - if you have a new convention for registering tabs, you have to add tabs to every module | 19:17 |
| ignas | if you had menus that did something you will have to move the links to some viewlets | 19:17 |
| ignas | in some cases | 19:18 |
| aelkner | no menus | 19:18 |
| aelkner | justs tabs | 19:18 |
| ignas | i am afraid that only way to convince me is to make a prototype | 19:19 |
| ignas | and show me a diff | 19:19 |
| ignas | because i know what steps i'd need to make the simplest solution work (the one i have outlined), but i just can't envision the changes that your ideas need | 19:19 |
| aelkner | i'd like to see what th1a comes up with today | 19:19 |
| aelkner | correct me if i'm wrong but | 19:20 |
| aelkner | all of our views use the page macro as the shell | 19:20 |
| ignas | yes | 19:20 |
| aelkner | the views don't know about the shell and therefore don't test it | 19:20 |
| aelkner | so the shell doesn't matter to them | 19:21 |
| ignas | most of them don't | 19:21 |
| ignas | unit test it | 19:21 |
| aelkner | i'm talking functional tests here | 19:21 |
| ignas | but all of the functional tests rely on it providing some links | 19:21 |
| ignas | but not too much | 19:21 |
| aelkner | i understand | 19:22 |
| aelkner | the functional tests do things like | 19:22 |
| aelkner | 'Persons' click | 19:22 |
| aelkner | 'Add New Person' click | 19:22 |
| aelkner | to set up the person for their test | 19:22 |
| aelkner | is that what you mean? | 19:22 |
| ignas | yes | 19:22 |
| aelkner | fiar enough | 19:22 |
| aelkner | so the tests will have to change | 19:23 |
| ignas | my concern is about views like "@@members_persons.html", "timetables", "calendar" that have the section as their context | 19:23 |
| ignas | your plan is not leaving any well defined places for them | 19:23 |
| ignas | and the global page macro | 19:23 |
| ignas | has to know nothing about timetables and nothing about attendance | 19:23 |
| ignas | by default | 19:23 |
| ignas | because else - whole schooltool starts depending on attendance | 19:24 |
| aelkner | why not have the section be the current context | 19:24 |
| aelkner | and have members be a tab | 19:24 |
| aelkner | as well as attendance | 19:24 |
| aelkner | and gradebook | 19:24 |
| aelkner | or anything else for that matter | 19:24 |
| ignas | because that requires addition of a plugin point for "object specific tabs" | 19:25 |
| ignas | re registering of all of these views as tabs | 19:25 |
| ignas | making these new tabs check permissions | 19:25 |
| ignas | making it work if some object has no such tabs | 19:25 |
| aelkner | the sections taught tab is part of the page macro | 19:26 |
| aelkner | it in turn delivers the sections tabs under it | 19:26 |
| aelkner | under that we have the rest of the tabs | 19:27 |
| ignas | so every single tab | 19:27 |
| ignas | will have it's own "subtabs" | 19:27 |
| th1a | I agree with ignas that these changes are much less simple than they seem. | 19:27 |
| aelkner | they can be rendered by registering against a special interface | 19:27 |
| ignas | that it will know how to render | 19:27 |
| th1a | And simply not worth the trouble given the overall state of the application. | 19:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: if you are adding so many things maybe you could just do it for SLA | 19:28 |
| ignas | and if we'll see that it is really good, we'll try moving it to the mainline | 19:28 |
| aelkner | i'm trying to solve cando and jelkner's problems at the same time | 19:28 |
| aelkner | that's the whole idea | 19:28 |
| ignas | i understand, but I am not sure we will have enough time to solve it for schooltool | 19:28 |
| ignas | during this sprint | 19:29 |
| aelkner | i believe that we are only working on this at the sprint | 19:29 |
| aelkner | and we have a lot of resources | 19:29 |
| aelkner | and a whole week | 19:29 |
| aelkner | not just the sprint, but also the conference | 19:29 |
| ignas | most of the tasks for this do not really scale | 19:29 |
| th1a | These are not big problems. | 19:30 |
| th1a | I mean, jelkner's and CanDo's. | 19:30 |
| th1a | Not big enough to justify complex solutions. | 19:30 |
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| aelkner | so i'm hearing what we can't do | 19:32 |
| aelkner | and i'm happy to agree that we can't do things | 19:32 |
| aelkner | so what are we going to do at the sprint? | 19:34 |
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| ignas | hmm, implement the simple solution | 19:34 |
| aelkner | what's the simple solution? | 19:34 |
| ignas | while some interns will be working on polishing things like | 19:34 |
| ignas | yearly calendar view | 19:34 |
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| th1a | Well, the fact of the matter is we're going to be pretty much implementing what you and dwelsh drew up. | 19:34 |
| ignas | the one that i have outlined, the one that makes tabs plain links | 19:34 |
| ignas | and moves most of the navigation menu | 19:35 |
| ignas | into a pseudo dashboard "admin" and "school" tab pages | 19:35 |
| ignas | and fixes the template to make tabs look like tabs | 19:35 |
| ignas | and actions menu look like buttons | 19:35 |
| ignas | and redo all the functional tests to access most of the admin things through 2 clicks instead of 1 click | 19:36 |
| ignas | meanwhile some interns will work on yearly calendar view fixes | 19:36 |
| ignas | a bit of cando buildoutization | 19:36 |
| ignas | schooltool.lyceum.journal polishing | 19:36 |
| ignas | to make it a bit more generic | 19:37 |
| ignas | schooltool.timetabling view fixes to make it a bit more straighforward to manually add a timetable | 19:37 |
| ignas | maybe even extend schooltool.lyceum.journal attendance views | 19:38 |
| ignas | but i don't think we'll have enough time for that | 19:38 |
| ignas | my goal for the sprint is to have something "usable enough" | 19:41 |
| ignas | so if someone asks how to do "some task" we say "click there, click there, click there" instead of saying - in theory we can, but we forgot to add the view in our release... | 19:42 |
| ignas | ok, i have to go now, and my coworkers need to use my "Windows XP" | 19:44 |
| ignas | bye | 19:44 |
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| aelkner | th1a: when I took the seminar on "User Centered Design" | 19:45 |
| aelkner | he suggested starting with what he called a "Low Fidelity Prototype" | 19:45 |
| aelkner | that's exactly | 19:45 |
| aelkner | what you suggested earlier | 19:45 |
| aelkner | Paper Prototyping" | 19:45 |
| aelkner | so I'm fine with your doing that | 19:46 |
| aelkner | as long as we can all have access to it | 19:46 |
| aelkner | can you post a film of it? | 19:46 |
| aelkner | th1a: ? | 19:46 |
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| th1a | aelkner: I will take pictures. | 19:56 |
| aelkner | cool | 19:56 |
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