IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2008-03-03

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dwelshhoffman, you there?16:16
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Lumierehi dwelsh16:23
Lumieredwelsh: SchoolTool dev meeting starts in 6 minutes16:23
Lumiereso he'll be hre16:23
th1aignas: Can you see this now?
aelknerth1a: notice how we came up with the word, "Enrollment" to handle persons and sections together?16:29
Lumiereugh, brb16:30
th1aYeah, that's better.16:30
aelknerI thought it was important for screen realestate to keep those together16:30
aelknerbesides they go together functionally anyway16:30
th1aWe just have to stuff resources somewhere -- I'd rather not have them under calendar.16:30
th1a(and I'd rather not call the calendar "schedule")16:30
aelknerwell, what does a calendar and a term have in common?16:31
th1aThat's only one use of the calendar.16:31
aelknerthey schedule time16:31
th1aLook, I'm not the one putting all those things under a tab.16:32
th1aI'm against that.16:32
aelkneryou can blame me for that16:32
ignasth1a: aren't we going a bit over the scope?16:32
aelknerbut i'm trying to make my case16:32
th1aYou're complexifying the calendar.16:32
th1aignas: I'm trying not to.16:32
aelkneri'm trying to put things together that are related16:32
th1aAnd we are less than we were a week ago.16:32
th1aaelkner: That's not necessarily the goal.16:33
aelknerwe can only have so many tabs16:33
aelknerso we have to make those kinds of choices16:33
aelknerenrollment is another case of that16:33
th1aYes, but we can just put terms and timetables under admin.16:34
aelknerwe could16:34
ignasaelkner: you know that schooltool should work without terms for example, and without gradebooks and without attendance ...16:34
th1aWhen a user wants to view a term or timetable, he or she should be able to do that by looking at their calendar.16:34
aelknerwhere would they do it?16:34
th1aWell, in practice it is inherent in when they have section events.16:35
th1aIf they have classes, a term is going on.16:35
th1aThe times they start and stop are determined by the timetable.16:35
ignasth1a: it suddenly seems that your way of redoing the UI would require the addition of a set of new pluggable views for most of the tabs/categories16:35
ignasth1a: if I am understanding the screenshot correctly16:36
th1aWhich screenshot?16:36
th1aThe one I just linked to?16:36
ignasor was it just an example16:36
ignasof cando UI16:36
th1aI wonder if last week's problem was related to Pakistan.16:36
aelknerglad to see that ignas can access the mock-up now16:37
th1aYes... the CanDo page is more complex.16:37
aelknerlet's put aside cando for a moment16:37
aelknerwell, not exactly16:37
th1aThe one thing that has to be pluggable is a single row of links across the top.16:37
th1aBelow that, the individual add-on is responsible for everything.16:38
th1aIn terms of what we'd be implementing at PyCon.16:38
aelknerThat's why we tried to open up screen realestate16:38
ignasth1a: what do you think of the plan that I have suggested?16:38
th1aYou mean the overall list of things that need to be done?16:39
aelknerignas: when did you suggest the plan16:39
ignasth1a: yes, and the order and the scope16:39
aelknerthat note about a week ago?16:39
ignashmm, i am not sure I sent it to everyone :/16:39
ignasI think I only sent it to Tom16:40
th1aOh... sorry if I didn't respond... I had a conversation in my head, at least.16:40
aelknerwell i'm glad you two have it all under control :)16:40
th1aI do think we need to do this basic reorganization.16:40
th1aAnd we need to make it as minimal as possible.16:40
th1aBecause the things you've listed are essential as well.16:41
aelknerwhen do i get to peek at this list?16:41
th1aignas: Can you forward it to aelkner?16:41
Lumiereok, I'm back16:41
Lumiereth1a: there needs to be a way for someone to view the full term16:42
Lumiereand to get information on the schedule of the school16:42
th1aLumiere: OK, but that's an implementation detail of the calendar.16:42
Lumiereand the calendar is not a good way to do it16:42
Lumiereth1a: not right now16:42
Lumiereth1a: right now that is entirely handled by terms and timetables16:42
ignasLumiere: i still have to see a teacher that needs to see the whole term16:43
th1aignas: What do you mean?16:43
aelknerso where do terms and timetables belong in the UI?16:43
ignasth1a: the term as in "just the term" not lessons16:43
th1aLike, "I need to see a view of what days we have school this term?"16:44
ignasth1a: not events, but just plain term with full information ib which days are schooldays, and which are not schooldays etc.16:44
ignasit's more of an admin thing *most* of the time16:44
ignasit is useful nevertheless16:45
ignasbut it is not important enough to get a top level navigation item16:45
Lumiereignas: in the US, parents want to know when school ends, where winter vacation is16:45
dwelshwelsh is here too16:45
Lumiereteachers need to know where the end of grading terms are16:45
Lumiereto get grades in16:45
dwelshDoesn't everyone see timetables already, as a part of the calendar16:45
ignasyes, but not every day16:45
dwelshyes, but teachers do want to see it16:45
Lumiereignas: but it needs to be easy to find16:45
Lumiereand simple to understand16:45
dwelsh(teacher speaking)16:45
th1aOK, here's what I don't want -- two rows of tabs above your calendar.16:45
Lumierewhere they need to go16:45
th1aThis is making me feel like my original idea of stuffing the rest of the current UI under a big tab isn't such a bad idea.16:46
aelknerth1a: what rest ot the UI?16:47
th1aI mean a top level "more..." tab which has the navigation menu as a second row of tabs.16:47
ignasth1a: hmm, I have assumed that we are replacing one navigation scheme with another one16:47
ignasth1a: leaving the UI the way it was16:47
th1aYes, yes... if I say "UI" read "navigation."16:48
th1aMy point in all this is that I want to have a simplicity around the basic tasks a teacher does every day.16:48
ignasth1a: my suggestion was - to put all the items that do not get their own tab16:48
ignasth1a: under SchoolTool tab16:48
aelknerth1a: what exactly do you object to with the mock-up?16:48
th1aIf you hit "calendar" you don't want "an assortment of time-related functions."16:48
th1aYou want your calendar.16:49
aelknerok, fine16:49
aelknerhow about your suggestion to put terms and timetables under admin?16:49
Lumiereth1a: if you hit calendar16:49
Lumiereyou get your calendar16:49
Lumierewith a few options16:49
th1aYou guys are convincing me it can't go there.16:49
th1aLumiere: I don't want it to be "calendar plus other stuff."16:50
Lumiereth1a: WHY16:50
ignasLumiere: out of scope for this sprint!16:50
Lumiereignas: no, it isn't16:50
th1aI want it to be what it says.16:50
ignasLumiere: unless you will be doing the programming ;)16:50
Lumiereth1a: and if you don't care about timetable or term16:50
Lumiereth1a: then it is exactly what it says16:50
aelknerignas: we have plenty of programmers16:50
Lumiereif you do, it is what it says + some really handy information16:51
Lumierethat takes up so little space it is negligble16:51
Lumiereespecially now that we're shrinking the header16:51
th1aWe can just as easily put that handy information somewhere else.16:51
ignasaelkner: sent you the plan16:51
Lumiereth1a: execpt that is *the* place it makes sense to look for it in16:51
dwelshThis mockup is actually simpler than SchoolTool now16:51
dwelshthe calendar page now has the read bar16:52
dwelshplus navigation and action menus16:52
dwelshwith all kinds of unrelated stuff16:52
th1aWhat would make most sense is if you looked ON YOUR CALENDAR for when the term begins and ends.16:52
dwelshI don't get ignas' points about two rows of tabs16:52
dwelshyou basically have two now16:52
Lumiereth1a: but how do I know what that is?16:52
dwelshwith about a million more unrelated items16:52
th1adwelsh: There's having two rows of tabs from a UI perspective,16:53
ignasdwelsh: my point?16:53
th1aand from a programming perspective, building it into the DNA of the system.16:53
aelknerignas: i read you note16:53
aelknerforwarded it to dwelsh and Lumiere16:54
ignasth1a: as for the term stuff, i'd rather have someone add "term" markers to yearly and monthly views16:54
aelknerviews of what?16:54
aelknerwhat context does one need to be in to view and edit terms?16:55
th1aI'm saying "admin."16:55
aelknerthat's why we had terms in the scheduling tab16:55
ignasediting of terms is purely admin stuff16:55
aelknercan it be done without a calendar?16:55
ignasviewing terms from what Lumiere is suggesting is needed for teachers too16:55
th1aIt has its own calendar view.16:55
ignasso making that information readily available in some calendar views16:55
ignaswould be the most elegant solution i can think of16:56
ignasthat would not break anything16:56
ignasnor change anything drastically ;)16:56
aelknerso why not administer them from there too?16:56
ignasaelkner: because yearly calendar view is not too convenient16:56
th1aI think we could get interns to make useful term views in the calendar.16:56
ignasand administering terms is a once a year only task16:56
aelknerso that should go in the admin tab in your opinion?16:57
th1aThe thing is, the yearly view is somewhat useless for regular events anyhow,16:57
ignasaelkner: yes, adding/removing/editing terms16:57
th1aso it could become a term view by default.16:57
ignasadding/removing/editing school timetables16:57
aelknerdwelsh: you hear that?16:57
th1aI can think of no case where more than one person needs to be able to edit the school year.16:57
LumiereI am fine with yearly -> term view16:58
Lumiereand timetables/terms as purely a admin thing16:58
ignasth1a: exactly my point ;)16:58
Lumierewe also need a single-reference for viewing the full timetable16:58
Lumiere(think a new student coming into school, looking to understand what classes are when)16:58
th1aLumiere: OK, but it doesn't need to be a tab.16:59
ignasLumiere: we have something like that in lyceum16:59
ignasLumiere: i'll show it to you in pycon i guess16:59
ignasth1a: if tabs will be pluggable16:59
ignasLumiere: will be able to make it a tab16:59
ignasif you follow my plan that is ;)17:00
ignasit should allow everyone to shoot at his own leg precisely the way he wants ;)17:00
th1aAm I thinking of a different email from ignas?17:00
ignasthe reply that was suggesting us to have top level tabs just plain link viewlets17:01
ignasit was a reply to your comments for section overlay UI17:01
th1aWhat was the title of this email?17:01
ignas"section list"17:01
aelknerI thought we agreeed to the goolgle apps aproach17:02
aelknerdwelsh and i have been operating under that assumption17:02
aelkneradn we have questions about the look and feel17:02
aelknerthat we haven't even gotten to yet17:02
aelknerfirst of all17:03
aelknerwe have the tabs to allow anyone to add a plugin17:03
aelknerlike skilld in the mockup17:03
th1aI remember reading the first part of this email but not the second.17:03
th1aOK.... let's STOP for a minute, please.17:03
aelknerth1a: we're listening?17:05
th1aNo... I'm trying to understand ignas's email, which is, for better or worse, essential to us having the rest of this conversation.17:06
th1aSo you're just going to have to wait another minute.17:06
aelkneris this the email you just forwarded me and i forwarded to dwelsh and Lumiere?17:07
th1aOK... so one thing is that there is no particular reason in the new navigation scheme an individual application can't use menus.17:08
th1aSo we're all agreed on that, right?17:08
ignaswhat do you mean by "individual applications" ?17:09
th1aLIke "calendar" "gradebook"17:09
ignasis "timetabling" "courses" "terms" an application?17:09
aelkner"Skills" is an individual app (CanDo)17:09
th1aignas: Not for the purposes of this conversation.17:10
ignasi see17:10
dwelshskills, grades... are MODULES17:10
th1aWell, we'll have to settle on some new nomenclature.17:11
th1a"Modules" has a specific meaning in Python.17:11
dwelshnomenclature is important17:11
ignasdwelsh: don't use that word please, "module" can be used to define "anything" :/17:11
th1aLet's just power through for the moment.17:11
aelknerplgin is useful17:11
th1aOK, so I'm a teacher at Lyceum.17:11
dwelshfine... let's just find a word to describe CanDo, the gradebook17:11
th1a"Application" will do for now.17:12
dwelshWelsh must go teach a class17:12
th1aThat's what a teacher thinks they're doing.17:12
th1aOK, thanks dwelsh!17:12
th1aSo I'm a teacher at Lyceum.17:12
ignasth1a: my plan is to keep it customizable enough to allow schools to pick what set of tabs do they want, and what tabs mean for them, rather than enforcing the "tabs are only for applications" thing ...17:12
dwelshGo with a top row of tabs... it simplifies everything17:12
dwelshwhere terms and timetables go is not that important17:12
aelkneri agree17:13
th1aCan we just power through the nomenclature for a minute.17:13
ignasth1a: while making the default set of tabs represent our idea of the schooltool as a platform for "applications"17:13
th1aI'm a teacher at Lyceum.17:13
aelknerlet's keep lycem-specific stuff in the second level of tabs17:13
th1aaelkner: no.17:13
th1aI log onto SchoolTool at the beginning of class.17:13
aelknergo ahead17:13
th1aI see my "Journal" tab, among others.17:13
th1aAt the top of the screen.17:14
th1aI click on it, and I then see below the top bar whatever ignas wants.17:14
aelknerso ignas can install more than one tab at the top you mean?\17:14
aelknerbut not too many17:14
Lumiereignas can make the top row of tabs17:14
Lumierewhatever he wants17:15
th1aIt is his site.17:15
ignasaelkner: yes, all the tabs i want, looking the way I like17:15
aelknerso we're not agreeing on the navigatiopn are we?17:15
th1aI don't know.17:15
th1aWhat do you imagine, aelkner?17:15
aelkneri figured that schooltool has a base app, and that cando, lyceum and sla are plugins17:16
aelkneris that true?17:16
ignasnot really17:16
th1aLet's focus on what the teacher SEES.17:16
ignasth1a: rather than clicking on journal17:16
ignasth1a: he would click on the "menu" icon next to journal17:16
ignasth1a: to see a quick list of all of his sections17:17
ignasth1a: clicking on journal would show him a view with all of his sections + some additional information maybe17:17
th1aOK, so that's what you meant in reference to the LaunchPad breadcrumbs.17:17
th1aNot breadcrumbs but just making the tabs also menus.17:17
ignasbut instead of hover on link that is clickable for 2 seconds17:17
ignasadd a button that tells "click me" and you will get a menu17:17
Lumiere2 seconds is too long17:18
ignaswhile keping a "link" next to it17:18
th1aignas: Just like Gmail.17:18
ignasLumiere: i don't know what the timeout on launchpad breadcrumbs is,  but it is totaly unintuitive for me17:18
th1aLike the "more" menu.17:18
th1aLittle triangle.17:18
ignasth1a: i don't get more when I click on the triangle :/17:19
ignasbut yes - my idea was to give a menu17:19
th1aThat seems fine to me.17:19
ignasi don't know whether you'll want something like that for other tabs or for schooltool17:20
ignasthat's why i have moved it to be last items in the list17:20
ignasthe crux of my plan is to have the application working in each step, so if we will not have time - it will work, if we will have time, we will have a framework in the end17:21
ignasthat we will be able to experiment with17:21
th1aWell, many "applications" apply to several sections, so generally establishing the pattern of clicking on a triangle to get a relevant section list seems like a good idea.17:21
ignasto see where and how can things get improved17:21
ignasaelkner: as for plugins - stapp2008, sla, lyceum and cando are "school setups"17:21
ignasaelkner: schooltool customized to look and act in some particular way17:21
aelkneri don't want that17:22
ignasaelkner: up to changing the data structures, addin new UI elements, anything that the school wants17:22
Lumierehow about this17:22
aelkneri want schooltool to look one way for all schools17:22
ignasaelkner: yes you do, every time you want to change schooltool in a way lyceum would not like - you want *that*17:22
Lumierewe worry about how stapp2008 looks17:22
Lumiereand let everyone else deal with it later17:22
ignasstapp2008 is the way schooltool will look for everyone by default17:22
aelknerbut it should allow for additional tabs17:23
th1aaelkner: Yes.17:23
ignasit will allow, it will be a good base17:23
th1aThat's the point.17:23
ignasto build your own customizations *on*17:23
ignasso if you like the default look17:23
ignasyou can "inherit" from it and customize it only a little bit17:23
th1aYou have freedom to do whatever you want, as long as you put it under a tab.17:23
ignasor you can just create a new one17:24
aelkneryes, what you jsut said17:24
aelknercreate a new tab17:24
aelknerbut i'm looking for what the default tabs are17:24
aelknerthat's what we're trying to mock-up17:24
aelknerand the idea is that "Skills" is not a default tab17:24
aelknerit's a cando plugin17:25
aelknerbut the rest of the tabs are for all schools17:25
aelknerthe base17:25
aelknerso lyceum would have its own tab17:25
aelknerand jelkner would have his17:25
ignasno, there is no reason why lyceum can't reuse old tabs17:25
ignasor extend them17:25
ignasor change their meaning17:25
ignasthat's why we are using Zope17:25
aelknerthat's more complex thatn I had in mind17:26
th1aBut also, you want the tabs to be task oriented.17:26
Lumiereaelkner: Lyceum can't use an attendance or gradebook tab (which btw, may not EXIST in some schooltool instances)17:26
th1aYou don't want it to take two clicks to get to Lycem > Journal.  You just want "Journal" as a top tab.17:26
aelknerbut wait17:26
aelknerwhy can't Lyceum be its own top-level tab17:27
aelknergive me a sec here17:27
ignasjournal will exist in stapp2008, but not in SLA17:27
ignasaelkner: no need for that17:27
th1aIt is an extra click.17:27
aelknernot really17:27
ignasaelkner: lyceum is just a small set of customisations17:27
aelknerremember that we have a home17:27
th1aThe teacher knows what school they are at.17:27
ignasaelkner: 2-3 views and that's it17:27
aelknerand it does nothing now17:27
aelknerit can do directly to lyceum17:27
ignasaelkner: there is no such functionality that is specific to lyceum that would need a tab17:28
aelknerand journal could be selected by default17:28
ignasaelkner: and journal is in stapp2008spring17:28
ignasaelkner: do we want Lyceum tab in our next release?17:28
th1aIt is also possible that "competencies" and "skill drivers" could be top level tabs.17:28
aelknerignas: i was hoping17:28
ignasno reason why not17:28
aelknerth1a: too many top level tabs17:29
ignasth1a: it's the same amount of code17:29
aelknerthere is only so many pixels available17:29
aelknerforget the code17:29
aelknerit's the UI that matters17:29
ignasaelkner: that's why we knowing the set of features available in stapp2008spring17:29
ignaswill come up with a set of tabs for stapp200817:29
ignasand that's why you will come up with a set of tabs for SLA17:29
ignasand someone will design the UI for cando to have a different set of tabs17:30
aelknerthat's not how i envisioned it17:30
ignasthe way that is most convenient for each and every school setup17:30
ignaswithout compromises17:30
ignasto accomodate lithuanian schools ;)17:30
aelknertoo complex17:30
th1aI'm afraid you've lost us aelkner.17:30
aelknerlook, we need schooltool base to be one thing17:30
aelknerthings that all schools will do17:31
ignasaelkner: there is no such set of things17:31
aelknerthings that are done differently at lyceum and sla17:31
ignasaelkner: that *all* schools will do17:31
aelknersure there is17:31
aelknerall schools have persons and sections17:31
th1aIn theory, Enrollment and Admin are the only core tabs.17:31
ignasaelkner: lithuanian schools have sections for last 7 years i think, we didn't have such a term before ...17:31
ignasth1a: yes17:32
th1aIn practice, it has never been that clear.17:32
ignasaelkner: we had groups that are not exactly the same as sections17:32
ignasaelkner: something like they have in primary schools i think17:32
aelknerbut all schools need the groups17:32
aelknerso that is not a lyceum or sla thing17:33
LumiereI would suggest calendar is a core piece of schooltool tool17:33
Lumiereerr too17:33
ignasLumiere: i want to get rid of the calendar17:33
aelknerCalendar, Enrollment, Admin17:33
ignasLumiere: in 2011 ;)17:33
ignasLumiere: because actually - it is not a core piece17:34
ignasLumiere: timetabling is more of a core piece17:34
th1aYes, the next time we start over from scratch ;-)17:34
ignasLumiere: and calendaring is just a way to look at your timetable17:34
th1aaelkner: You're losing sight of the teacher's point of view here.17:34
aelkneri know that if dwelsh were paying attention, he';d be frustrated too17:34
th1aThey have no idea what "core" SchoolTool looks like, nor do they care.17:35
th1aaelkner: I think you're off on an island on this one.17:35
aelknerfirst of all, we need to discuss what each type of uyser sees17:35
th1aI don't understand your objection at all.17:35
aelkneri've been saying from the start17:35
aelknerteachers need to see attendance, gradebook, enrollment17:36
aelknerthat's about it17:36
aelknersite admins need the admin tab17:36
ignasaelkner: my point is - we should be designing tabs for stapp2008, because your users are americans ;) and don't really fit with lithuanian usecases17:36
Lumieredwelsh is at class17:36
th1aTeachers don't need to see the name of their school and have all their customization crammed into secondary tabs.17:37
Lumierewe've been off topic for about 45 minutes now17:37
th1aI would argue that we are at least on topic.17:37
aelkneri'm telling you this is contrary to what dwelsh and i have been mocking up17:37
Lumiereyou 3 need to get on a phone call17:37
th1aBut there is only one difference, right?17:37
Lumiereand hash this out17:38
aelknerit's a big difference17:38
ignasaelkner: can you tell me what is the difference?17:38
th1aOK... let's look at SLA.17:38
th1aMake this concrete.17:38
aelknerwhat dwelsh and i assumed17:38
aelknerwas that the tabs for schooltool-only stuff would be definable17:38
th1aYou've got a narrative report system and CAS.17:39
th1aYou should have a "narrative" tab and a "CAS" tab.17:39
aelkneri'd say no17:39
aelkneri'd have a SLA tab17:39
th1aYes, but that's just silly.17:39
aelknerand it would have whatever i wnated it to17:39
Lumiereaelkner: you're only adding like 2 things17:39
Lumierewhy on earth would you make them unobvious17:39
ignasinstead of 1 thing ;)17:39
ignasand as CAS does not need a tab17:40
aelknerif i want my own system of tabs17:40
ignasthen why put narative under SLA17:40
aelkneri should feel free to do so under the SLA tab17:40
ignasinstead of just narrative17:40
ignasaelkner: and you will be able to17:40
ignasif you want that so much17:40
th1aaelkner: You can do whatever you want, but I don't see the advantage.17:40
aelknerbecuase narrative is not an application17:40
ignasaelkner: it is a *thing* that people want to *use*17:40
aelknerit's part of the whole sla thing17:40
aelknerso they uise it17:41
aelknerwhat's the problem?17:41
aelknerthey go to SLA->narricites17:41
th1aIt is unnecessary hierarchy.17:41
aelkneri think it is necessary17:41
aelknerto devide and concur17:41
th1aWell, you're free to do that.17:41
ignasso we seem to be disagreeing about the top level hierarchy17:42
ignasaelkner: you think that we only have to use top level for "applications"17:42
aelknerlike google17:42
ignasthus adding artificial divides between schooltool components17:42
aelknerwe agreed on that17:42
ignasand I think that we should have our application organically extendable17:42
aelknerone school doesn't care about another17:42
ignasso we would have plugins and addons that grow on the application17:42
ignasthus can change any part of it to make sense17:43
aelkneri'm not against that17:43
th1aAlso, we'd want the "applications" to be individually reusable by other schools.17:43
ignasand top level items are for common taskss17:43
ignasnot applications17:43
ignasapplications is an artificial term17:43
ignasthat users do not care about17:43
Lumierethe top tabs17:43
Lumiereshould be the 5 things17:43
Lumiereyou expect teachers to do17:43
Lumiereor admins or whoever17:43
ignasthey are using "schooltool" not "schooltool calendar" "schooltool mail" "schooltool blog reader"17:43
ignasand schooltool has "journal" "calendaring" "timetables" "admin" for lyceum17:44
Lumierethat will be different at every school (with overlap)17:44
ignas"attendance" "gradebook" "enrollment" "admin" for SLA17:44
aelknerthis is totally different than what th1a , dwelsh and aelkner agreed17:44
Lumiereit is not17:44
th1aIt isn't.17:44
Lumiereit is an extension of it17:44
Lumiereit's the logical progression of it17:45
aelknerth1a: we didn't discuss this at all17:45
aelknerdwlesh will be surprised i'm sure17:45
th1aAnd as we discuss this it is more clear to me that I really don't want you designing a suite of applications for SLA that can't be separated.17:46
th1aIf another school wants narrative reports, they shouldn't have an "SLA" tab.17:46
aelknerbut that's exactly the poijnt17:46
aelknerthey WILL be separate17:46
Lumiereaelkner: wrong context17:47
aelknerth1a: good point17:47
aelknerwhy not have them in SLA tab for now17:47
aelknerlater, the code could be moved to schooltool17:47
Lumiereaelkner: because it is horrid design17:47
th1aBecause I can't think of why I'd want that at all.17:47
aelknerso why do you bring it up?17:48
Lumierebecause you won't let the SLa tab go17:48
th1aI can't think of why they'd want an SLA tab!17:48
aelknerwhy not17:48
aelknerit's no harm17:49
th1aIt is like if Google had "Documents" under "Writely," because that's who developed it.17:49
th1aAnd Photos under "Picasa"17:49
th1aIt is archaeology.17:49
ignasth1a: so - what do you think of my plan? any additional things or should i expect us to try following it during the spring and elaborate on the steps?17:49
ignasth1a: or should i just wait...17:50
th1aI think we can bring all these things together.17:50
aelknerSo, narratives are not part of schooltool17:50
aelkneronly sla cares about them17:50
th1aI bought a book called "Paper Prototyping" and some posterboard, markers, restickable tape, sharp scissors, etc.17:50
th1aaelkner: I'm not paying you to write stuff that only SLA will ever use.17:51
aelkneryou didn't give me a chance to finish17:51
th1aSo I'll be making some drawings and taking pictures this afternoon.17:51
th1aaelkner: proceed.17:51
aelknereventually, we will have a reason to make narratives a part of schooltool proper17:51
aelknerbut only after we decide that all schools will want it17:52
aelknerand where it should go in the base app17:52
aelknerbut SLA's special stuff that's not part of the base app17:52
aelknershould be in its own tab17:52
th1aWhat does "where it should go in the base app" mean?17:52
th1aIt should go in a tab.17:52
ignasaelkner: my point is - whenever more than 1 school will want it - it should become an egg, and look like it is a part of schooltool17:53
Lumiereok, back...17:53
ignasall schools wanting it is not necessary to make it a component17:53
ignasthat any school can use17:53
th1aLooking like a part of schooltool = being in a tab.17:53
ignasjust like with schooltool.lyceum.journal you can use it, or you can *not* use it17:53
ignasth1a: things like notes don't need a tab17:53
ignasth1a: different components extend schooltool differently17:53
th1aignas: Yes.17:54
ignasth1a: some of them will make a sense being a tab17:54
aelknerwe need to have a base app17:54
th1aBut narratives fits the task/application paradigm.17:54
aelknerone that all schools will see17:54
Lumiereno we don't17:54
Lumierein fact, we can not17:54
aelknerLumiere: where's welsh?17:54
Lumierein class17:54
Lumiereand he'll agree with me17:54
aelknergreat, that helps17:54
th1aI don't think dwelsh will bail you out.17:54
ignasyes, and the base app because of some design mistakes is "terms, sections, courses, timetables, calendars, persons, groups, resources"17:55
ignasbut that is not because we want that17:55
ignasthat's because we didn't manage to design it better :(17:55
Lumiereignas: right now the base app could be boiled down to calendar, person, group, resources17:55
LumiereI think17:55
ignasLumiere: nope :(17:55
Lumierethat would be 'schoolbell'17:55
ignasLumiere: sorry, but it would require a week or two of work17:55
th1aFrom a user's point of view, the "base app" might be a dashboard page.17:55
aelknerso we should have one tab at the top for each type of object17:56
Lumiereaelkner: no17:56
aelknerthat shouldn't cause realestate problems!17:56
th1aThat's exactly what we're trying to get away from.17:56
Lumiereaelkner: drop the sarcasm17:56
aelknerignas: what would the top level tabs be at lycem?17:56
Lumiereaelkner: look up17:56
Lumierehe anwered it17:56
ignasdepends on the person looking at it17:56
Lumierethe top level tabs are the few things you need to do17:57
aelknerstart with admin17:57
ignasteachers would get "journal" "calendar" probably17:57
Lumiereat your school17:57
ignasyes journal17:57
aelknerwhat journal?17:57
Lumiereaelkner: journal -> gradebook17:57
ignasthe "attendance + gradebook" thingie17:57
ignassome teachers17:57
ignasthat are school administrators or group leaders17:57
ignaswill get "attendance" tab17:57
ignasto manage their own students17:57
ignasbecause only they can process attendance explanations17:58
aelknerso let's take that person17:58
aelknerwhat are the total top level tabs?17:58
ignasstudents will get "gradebook" "calendar" "timetable" tabs probably17:58
aelknergradebook is not what students see17:58
aelknerthey don't grade17:58
aelknertthey only see their own grades17:59
ignasaelkner: gradebook is the way the small book17:59
ignasthat students own17:59
ignasand carry around17:59
ignaswith grades17:59
ignascalled in lithuania17:59
Lumiereaelkner: this is why there is no set of tabs we have to have17:59
ignasand that just underlines the point there is no "BASE" school17:59
Lumiereeverywhere has different words17:59
Lumiereand different ways they do things17:59
ignasenrollment when translated into lithuanian just does not make sense as a tab :/17:59
ignaswe just don't think about these tasks the same way18:00
ignasbecause of a different vocabulary18:00
th1aAlso, you can use tabs differently if you know that no teachers are also students.18:00
aelknerlook, i conceed that these are all good points18:01
aelknerbut not in line with what we mocked-up18:01
aelknerso we're not even starting from the same point18:01
ignasyep, that's what mockups are about18:01
ignasyou can throw away mockups ;)18:01
aelknerthat's fine18:01
aelknerso we need to make a new one18:02
th1aThere isn't that big of a difference.18:02
th1aWhat you were doing was perhaps a bit less universal than you thought.18:02
th1aBut I knew that all along.18:03
th1aAnd it is not really a problem.18:03
Lumiereaelkner: think of the mockup as a possible end look18:03
Lumiereone of Aleph-naught possibilities ;)18:04
aelknerI think of the mock-up as an agreement as to how the app should look\18:04
aelknerand we don't seam to have an agreement18:05
aelknerso should we have different mockups for the different schools?18:05
Lumierewe should have a mockup of the style of schooltool18:05
aelknerone for SLA, one for cando, one for jelkner-gradebook, one for lyceum18:05
Lumierewith the understanding that the tabs can change18:05
ignaswe can, but who would draw a better lyceum mockup that Bronius Skūpas and I18:05
th1aGoing from what we have now to having tabs is a big step.18:06
th1aAnd a major improvement.18:06
Lumiereaelkner: this is a point, where your need for an exact mockup is quite impossible18:06
ignaswe can work on them just to distill a common base, if that would help18:06
ignasbut the base is quite clear, "Admin" ;)18:06
th1aignas: I don't think that's necessary.18:06
Lumiereignas: that isn't even clear18:06
Lumiereteachers and students shouldn't get admin ;)18:06
ignasthey'll get "School" in lyceum probably18:07
ignasso i would have a place for school terms school timetables18:07
ignasand school calendar maybe18:07
aelknerth1a: but what tabs?  saying we have tabs and defining what they are is two different things18:07
aelknerif they will be different for each school18:07
th1aWe can define default tabs.18:07
aelknerthen so b it18:07
Lumierethe point is to define the st2008app tabs18:08
Lumiereand let every other instance18:08
th1aThere will be a generic SchoolTool.18:08
Lumieredefine them however the hell they want18:08
Lumiereand it isn't your problem18:08
aelknerLumiere: that's not helping18:08
aelknerth1a: what is generic schooltool18:09
Lumiereaelkner: st2008app = generic schooltool18:09
th1aMore like 2t2009app.18:09
ignasto me it is - the default configuration we are releasing with18:09
aelknerforget naming it, what does it have as the tabs?18:09
th1aWhen I do "apt-get install schooltool" in ibex, I'll get something.18:09
ignasaelkner: we should design that during the sprint, the schooltool2008 one18:10
ignasaelkner: without pretension that it will work for everyone18:10
th1aI would say "Home" "Calendar" "Grades" "Attendance" "Enrollment" "Admin"18:10
th1aBut yes, this is what we'll do at EuroPython.18:10
aelknerth1a: good18:10
aelknerso you think we can add three more tabs to that for lyceum for instance?18:10
ignasth1a: we have journal as the default component in stapp now18:11
Lumiereaelkner: they don't need to18:11
ignasaelkner: i will remove half of the tabs for lyceum18:11
Lumiereaelkner: they will remove grades attendance and enrollment18:11
ignasaelkner: and change the other half18:11
th1aWell, "journal" will have to become "attendance"18:11
Lumiereand replace them with what he needs18:11
th1aOr something like that.18:11
Lumiereth1a: internationalization can deal with that18:11
Lumierethe lt translation can say Journal and the en translation can say Attendance18:11
th1aIt is not a big problem.18:12
Lumiere*presses the easy button*18:12
aelknerIt is a big problem18:12
aelknerthe problem being, vagueness18:12
aelknerwe should have a list of tabs scenarios for each possibility18:13
th1aIn a perfect world, by default you're apt-getting a meta-package which has a minimal core and by default installs gradebook attendance, etc. as separate packages.18:13
Lumiereaelkner: it is only vague to you18:13
ignasaelkner: this is the decision that we can postpone until the sprint i think18:13
aelknerLumiere: you're starting to make me mad18:13
ignasaelkner: in the end of my proposed changes we will have a framework18:13
th1aaelkner just has a different picture in his head than the rest of us.18:13
ignasaelkner: that will allow us to move tabs around18:13
Lumiereaelkner: I'm sorry about that, but I think everyone else has the same view at this point18:13
ignaswhile keeping the application working18:14
aelkneri don't see a mockup for this18:14
aelknerwelsh and i made a mockup18:14
aelknerand it does not adress this18:14
th1aI'll make a mockup today.18:14
Lumiereaelkner: th1a will be drawing something up18:15
aelknersomething that we can click through?18:15
aelknerthat's what welsh and i have been trying to do18:15
ignasmaking it look some way is the easy part, designing it so it would not require rewriting 100% of schooltool functional tests and keep 100% of tasks that you could do still doable is a bit more difficult :/18:15
th1aignas: That is a good point.18:15
Lumiereaelkner: if I have to make an html version I will18:16
Lumiereaelkner: but it shouldn't be needed18:16
* th1a is drawing pictures.18:16
ignasth1a: a question - are we planning to have 2 level tab hierarchy?18:17
th1aThat's definitely out.18:17
th1aAs a global architectural feature.18:17
ignasth1a: so doing what aelkner wants will probably be not be possible18:17
ignasth1a: as in SLA -> Narrative18:17
ignasat least easily doing that18:18
th1aHe can just do it.18:18
ignasnot really :/ at least not at the moment18:18
th1aI mean, he doesn't have to make it pluggable for his own needs.18:18
th1aCan't he just code a macro?18:18
ignasin that sense - yes18:18
aelknerThe top level tabs could be Persons Courses Sections Groups Narratives CSAP Calenafar Attendance18:18
aelknerI could think of twntry more18:18
aelknerIf we want only one level of tabs18:19
th1aThe entire point of this project is to get rid the idea of navigating by objects.18:19
th1aI think we've exhausted this conversation for now.18:19
Lumiereaelkner: for SLA it would be Calendar Sections (Narritave RC, CSAP) Admin18:19
Lumierethe narritave and CSAP show for those who need it18:20
aelknerEveryone at SLA needs it18:20
Lumiereadmin is people, groups, courses making it18:20
Lumierethen it shows for all18:20
Lumiereit's still only 5 tabs18:20
Lumieresections can deal with attendance and grades18:20
Lumiereor you can separate it out18:21
aelknersections taght versus sections attended for instance18:21
Lumiereto attendance \/ and grades \/ like ignas is doing for lyceum18:21
Lumiereaelkner: you don't ever have that at SLA18:21
Lumiereor am I insane18:21
aelknerwhat do you mean?18:21
th1aYou can have second level tabs, SchoolTool just is not going to provide a pluggable framework for them.18:21
Lumiereat least, it isn't for now18:22
* ignas is thinking how to do that at the moment18:22
ignasbut i'd need to see a mockup of what precisely aelkner wants18:22
Lumierethat second level of tabs should have a standard way of doing them (for cando/whoever)18:22
ignasto see if i can fit it in without doing too work ...18:23
aelknerwhat aelkner wants is to devide the top level tabs by task18:23
* th1a is going to take a shower, get lunch, and draw some pictures.18:23
ignasLumiere: should - yes, but i am not sure we will manage to implement it this sprint...18:23
ignasaelkner: sorry, i am really more of a visual thinker :/18:23
ignasaelkner: i would like to see your navigation hierarchy18:24
th1aaelkner: Yes, everyone does, which is why we don't want a top level "SLA" tab.18:24
Lumiereignas: understood18:24
ignasi understand the need to collapse some tasks under one tab18:24
ignasit will be a common thing to do i'd assume18:24
aelknerok, i can see the possibility of SLA's installation installing narratives under the Sections's Taught tab18:25
Lumiereyes, but that tab should be for small stuff18:25
Lumiereaelkner: exactly18:25
th1aaelkner: The task is writing or reading a narrative.18:25
Lumiereaelkner: the goal is to organize things by where people will naturally look18:25
ignasso we might want to have it easy to do18:25
Lumierean SLA tab isn't natural18:25
aelknerfine, we'll drop the SLA tab18:26
th1aOK... now we're getting somewhere.18:26
ignasth1a: my point is - we might want to have 2 levels of tabs or at least 2 levels of navigation hierarchy, but i'd rather think about it after we finish the tasks that i have drawn up...18:26
aelknerso we need the teacher to navagate to a placve where all if their sections taught are tabs18:26
th1aignas: We're on the same page with that.18:26
aelknerand then they choose what they want to do with the section?18:27
LumiereI'm out18:27
LumiereI need a shower18:27
Lumiereand I gotta go into work.18:27
th1abye Lumiere.18:27
ignasth1a: i'd actually make the second level navigation *live* under the menu tabs18:27
ignasth1a: at least at first18:27
th1aaelkner: You could implement it that way if you wanted.18:27
ignasso you expand the section menu18:27
ignasand see narratives + stuff18:27
ignasor something like that18:27
ignasinstead of a section list18:27
aelknerwe need to start from sctions taght versus sections attended18:28
aelkneri know that sla teachers also attend classes18:28
aelknerso there's already an application for that18:28
aelknerwbrady also has a need for that at jelkner's school18:28
aelknerso is the user starts by choosing which sections18:29
aelknerthen we have a context for the rest18:29
th1aGenerally speaking, we're not focusing on section-based navigation, we're focusing on task based navigation.18:29
th1aSo if I click on "grades" I get a go page which has sections taught or attended.18:29
aelknerthere's a difference between viewing one's own narrative report card and creating one for one's student18:30
th1aAnd perhaps if I click on the triangle next to it I get a pop up menu of same.18:30
ignasi am focusing on "only changing the navigation" without changing any views, and we don't have a section view specific for grading at the moment :/18:30
th1aRight, that's why we have the go page.18:30
th1aSorting out the rest of that is up to the task's implementation.18:30
aelknerI think the teacher should be able to stear the app according to the difference between the sections they teach and the sections they attend18:32
aelknerthe tasks are different for each18:32
th1aSteer the app?18:32
aelknerthey decide what to adress18:32
aelknerby clicking on 'Sections Taught'18:33
aelknernow they've told the app what the context is18:33
ignasout of scope for the sprint i am afraid :/18:33
aelknerand the app can deliver the best UI for that18:33
ignasi mean - the ideas are good18:33
ignasbut we won't be able to implement it that fast18:33
ignasin a sane manner18:33
th1aIt is the whole question of two dimensional navigation.18:33
th1aI'd just like to get navigation right in the task-oriented path.18:34
th1aWe can think about the section-oriented path later.18:34
aelknerWe should think about what a teacher wants18:34
th1aBut basically, "I need to do my grades in all my sections" is more common than "I need to do all my tasks in this section."18:34
aelknerall my sections taught that is18:35
aelknerso 'Sections Taught' as top level18:35
aelknerGradebook Attendance18:35
aelkneras second level18:36
aelknerunder gradobook tab is a list of tabs for each section18:36
ignas3 levels of tabs?18:36
th1aThat is reasonable.18:36
th1aYou're getting too caught up in your teaching/student use case.18:36
aelknerthe top level is not a tab18:36
aelknerit's a link18:37
ignasand under tabs for each section tabs for every term and under every term tabs for every month :/18:37
aelknerright now jelkner's gradebook has18:37
aelknertabs for each section18:37
aelknerin the current section there is a pulldown to select the worksheet18:37
aelknerthere could be a pulldown to select the term similarly18:38
ignasso having a section menu does not make sense18:38
ignasfor aelkner's gradebook18:38
ignasunder the gradebook tab it seems18:38
aelknerIf I go to Section's Taught -> Gradebook18:39
aelknerI should see the sections as tabs18:39
th1aOne thing we're trying to do here is get away from a hierarchical navigation system as the fundamental way of interacting with SchoolTool.18:39
ignasthat's the difference18:39
aelknerIf I go to Secitons Taught -> Atendance18:39
th1aWe aren't trying to create a deep hierarchy of tabs.18:39
aelkneri should see the sections as tabs18:39
ignasfor lyceum it's more convenient to have Sections taught -> list of sections -> gradebook18:39
th1aaelkner: Teacher/Students are an edge case.18:40
th1aThe UI shouldn't be built around them.18:40
th1aI would say, I click on "grades"18:40
aelknerdo you mean teachers that are also students?18:40
th1aI get "sections taught" and "sections attended"18:40
th1aif I click on a section I teach, I go to my teacher's gradebook, which has tabs to all the sections I teach.18:41
th1aIf I click on a section I attend, I go to my set of student views.18:41
th1aBut I'm not plowing though a sequence of tabs.18:41
ignasas we already have a view that lists all the sections18:42
ignasboth that you attend and you teach18:42
ignasshowing it after a click on sections18:42
ignaskind of makes sense18:42
ignasand a list is not that much worse than tabs18:42
ignasespecially if you can go back to the list clicking sections again18:42
ignasthough it seems that we are optimizing for different scenarious18:43
th1aA list is better than tabs if you've got piles of tabs.18:43
ignasone way it is easier to change to another section without going back18:43
th1aRight, we don't need to optimize for people who are both students and teachers.18:43
ignasother way shows less navigation UI elements on the screen18:43
ignasat the same time18:43
th1aIn general, I'd say for something like a gradebook you should have tabs for each relevant section so you can switch that way.18:44
aelknersorry i got a phone call18:44
aelknerthis is a useful discussion18:44
ignasth1a: makes sense, that's why in lyceum section journals are in the top level menu for teachers18:44
aelknerwe should nail this down18:44
th1aI'm feeling pretty well nailed.18:45
aelknerth1a: i'm feeling pretty well unsure what anythoing is going to look like18:45
th1aI think it is picture time.18:46
aelknerth1a: pictures are fine18:46
th1aWell shower/lunch time, actually.18:46
ignasaelkner: i am just making sure i can implement my usecases without complicating everything too much, if you would explain to me what do you want to do with SLA i will try making it as easy to do it your way as I can...18:46
*** pcardune has joined #schooltool18:46
th1apcardune!  Just in time ;-)18:46
aelknerth1a: you talk about reducing clicks18:47
aelknerthat's why we have tabs18:47
aelknerthen you talk about having too many tabs18:47
aelknerthat's why we have go views18:47
aelknerso where do we optimize these concepts18:48
pcarduneth1a: hi18:48
pcarduneth1a: btw, I got my pycon plane ticket18:48
th1aAh, good.18:48
ignasaelkner: I am optimizing it so we could have it both ways18:48
aelknerwhen can we see a mockup of this?18:48
ignasaelkner: because I don't think we can reach a compromise among lyceum teachers and SLA teachers without them ever talking to each other18:48
aelknerSLA teachers are used to moodle which sucks18:49
aelknerso they will be happy with anything we come up with18:49
aelknerbut I want it to be optimum18:49
aelknerand the mockup should be complete18:49
aelknerwe can't code without having a complete view of what the UI will look like18:50
ignaswe can actually18:50
ignasthat was my plan18:50
th1aThat's the point of pluggable tabs.18:50
aelknerand coming up with this complete view is part of the task of reducing the complxity18:50
ignascomplexity is on both sides - UI and code18:50
aelknerwhat tabs are we talking about plugging here?18:50
ignas"attendance" "gradebook" "journal"18:51
aelknerwhere does the Narrative Report Cards tab get plugged?18:51
th1aBut also part of reducing the complexity is in changing the existing structure as little as possible while achieving our basic goal.18:51
th1aaelkner: I'd say right on top.18:51
th1aBut I guess one of the fundamental questions here is whether the top level tabs are categories or tasks.18:52
aelknerso I'm already grading a section, and I need to go to a different top-level tab and renavigate to the smae section?!18:52
th1ayou could argue for grades > narrative18:52
aelknerstill, i need to renavigate18:52
th1aaelkner: You only do narratives a few times.18:52
ignasaelkner: i am trying to reach a compromise between the non existing ideal that we want and the code that we have18:52
th1aIn reality, you'd probably use two browser windows in any case.18:53
ignasaelkner: yes you will have to renavigate, we will not do 2 dimensional navigation18:53
ignas2d navigation would require too many changes to other schooltool modules18:53
ignasto work properly18:53
ignasand i know - i have tried implementing it once already18:53
th1aI guess if you include roles it is three dimensional navigation: section / task / role.18:54
ignasth1a: and date18:54
ignasth1a: you forgot the date18:54
ignasand it's not just sections18:54
ignasyou need that for persons too18:54
ignasand groups18:54
th1aTime is the fourth dimension.18:55
ignasbecause if you don't need to go up for sections18:55
ignasyou suddenly don't want to go up for persons too18:55
th1aSo we can't get caught up in trying to do everything at once.18:55
ignasand then it becomes apparent that 90% of schooltool views were programmed with a teree->leaf  model not 4d model of navigation in mind :/18:55
aelknerLet's think about what a teacher does physically each day18:56
aelknerHe sits in his classroom18:56
aelknerand the beel rings18:56
aelknerit's time to move onto the next section18:56
aelknerso wouldn't it be nice for him to click on a tab for that section18:56
ignasin lyceum he just clicks on the journal menu, and clicks on the section that just came in18:57
aelknerand have everything he want sto do for that section18:57
th1aThat's not really how teachers work.18:57
aelknerbe in the same place?18:57
ignasbecause he only needs journal for the lesson18:57
ignasand he won't do anything else during the lesson18:57
aelknerhe won't grade?18:57
ignasjournal is the gradebook+attendance18:57
ignasso yes - he will grade and do attendance18:57
aelknerthat's all i'm talking about18:58
th1aBut even so, you generally don't grade assignments during class, unless you're a hack.18:58
ignasth1a: or you like torturing students18:58
ignasmaking them present reports against the class18:58
ignasor want to check their homework18:58
ignasand i guess in american model18:59
aelkneryes, check their homework18:59
ignasyou only need attendance during the class18:59
ignasmost of the time18:59
aelknerjelkner thinks otherwise18:59
th1aI mean, it is not an impossible case.  We can assume people have a tabbed browser at this point, more or less, though.18:59
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aelknerhe likes the section tabs18:59
aelknerand he doesn't even have attendance yet18:59
aelknerhe likes to grade things in class18:59
aelknerlike quizes18:59
aelknerand homework18:59
ignasaelkner: but you should not assume that everyone will like them, or need them19:00
th1aI'm not saying it is not desirable.19:00
th1aBut it is definitely not going to happen at PyCon.19:00
aelknerif it's not undesirable19:00
th1aIt is a very complex change.19:00
aelknerthen we could provide it19:00
ignasthat's why most of the features lyceum needs are not in schooltool, unless tom wants them, because i am trying to be non-invasive very very hard, because I just have no idea what everyone else needs :/19:00
th1aWe could, but there are lots of complex things we could provide.19:01
ignaseven after spending so much time discussing stuff with Tom, i still don't really know how US schools work19:01
th1aNor do I understand Lithuanian schools ;-)19:01
ignasso any assumption about convenience is probably false if i am making it according to lyceum feature requests19:01
th1aUnfortunately, I don't think I know a high school principal in Chicago or we could visit one.19:02
th1aaelkner: I guess my real point here is that I have tried to work out how to do the two-dimensional navigation, and it is just really, really hard.19:02
th1aI mean, it is part of the reason the UI sprint two years ago crapped out.19:02
th1aBasically, you need a system to keep track of what section you're looking at and then when you switch tasks knows where to put you in that task.19:03
th1aI mean, it is not really, really hard, but it is time consuming.19:03
th1aCreates lots of edge cases.19:03
aelknerMay I suggest and then you tell me what you think?19:04
th1aGo ahead.19:04
aelknerTop level tabs Home .... Sections Taught ...19:04
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aelknerUnder Sections Taught, the schooltool logo and grey bar19:04
aelknervisually deviding the look19:05
aelknerunder brey bar, the sections as tabs19:05
aelknergrey bar19:05
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aelknerclick on a section, that's the context19:05
aelknerunder the section tabs, a row of tabs for task19:06
aelknerclick on the gradebook, that's what you get19:06
aelknerclick on Attendance, you get that19:06
aelknereven the Section's taught tab can be default for the teacher19:06
aelknerconfigurable by the admin19:06
aelknerso the teacher signs in19:07
aelknerthey are already at the sections taught tab and see their sections as tabs19:07
aelknerthey click on one and work with it19:07
aelknertwo clicks19:07
aelknerone for the section, one for the task19:07
th1a"Sections Taught" is one of two top level tabs?19:08
aelkneri'd conceed that19:08
aelknerif it solves the too many clicks problem19:08
th1aNobody was arguing for that.19:08
ignasso we need and will have to add - a special person section container, ability to configure tabs, ability to register context specific viewlets for actions that would be displayed without context being available ...19:08
th1aHere's my current scenario:19:08
aelknerand also solves the devide sections taught from sections attended19:08
th1aI click on the triangle next to attendance, see my sections taught pop up, pick the right one.19:09
aelknerignas: i don';t follow19:09
ignasand we will have to redesign the navigation for section scheduling and section calendars as well19:09
aelknerI don't like the triangle idea19:09
ignasaelkner: i am considering changes to the system that we will have to implement19:09
aelknerpeople don't know to click on it19:09
ignasaelkner: to make your idea work19:09
th1aWell, then they can use the go page.19:10
aelknerLook, the home page can be a go page19:10
aelknerAnd have a sentence that correspnds to each top-lvel tab19:10
th1aSo we don't need to complexify this.19:10
aelknerbut the go page is only to make it easy to start using the app19:11
aelknerthe app teaching the user so to speak19:11
th1aOK... I am now going to take a shower.19:11
aelknerbut we need to have the user be able to get where they are going quickly19:11
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.19:11
ignasaelkner: how would you collect the tasks that teacher can perform on the sections, how would you make it pluggable?19:12
ignasaelkner: how would you split them among tasks that user can do on taught and attended sections?19:12
aelknerignas: your point is well taken19:12
ignaswithout having any sections as a "context" for the lookup19:12
aelknerbut i doh;t think this is as hard as you make it out to be19:12
aelknerif you think of the abs as a shell19:13
aelknerand the page macro would handle the shell19:13
ignasaelkner: have you seen how our old attendance looks like?19:13
aelknerthe view itself would be localhost:/sections/1/gradebook19:13
aelknerthe view itself would be localhost:/sections/1/attendance?19:13
aelknerthe shell would be able to look at the request19:14
aelknerto see what tab to highlight19:14
aelknerbut that's the shell's problem19:14
aelknerand not a big one19:14
aelknerthe views themselves don't need to change19:14
aelknerwe just need the page macro to be smart19:14
ignasanother point is - i don't want it in lyceum19:15
aelknerso the shell would detect the plugins19:15
aelknerand render the tabs accordingly19:15
aelknerwe could have a convention for registering tabs19:15
aelknerso that lyceum would register an interface19:15
aelknerand the page macro would pick it up19:16
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aelknerand render the tab accordingly19:16
ignasyou are making it more and more complicated with every sentence19:16
aelknerfunny you say that19:16
aelkneri see as simple19:16
ignaseverything that requires changing every single schooltool module19:16
ignasis not simple19:16
aelkneri'm not sure why anything would need to change in the modules19:17
aelknerthe views should not care about the tabs19:17
ignaswell - if you have a new convention for registering tabs, you have to add tabs to every module19:17
ignasif you had menus that did something you will have to move the links to some viewlets19:17
ignasin some cases19:18
aelknerno menus19:18
aelknerjusts tabs19:18
ignasi am afraid that only way to convince me is to make a prototype19:19
ignasand show me a diff19:19
ignasbecause i know what steps i'd need to make the simplest solution work (the one i have outlined), but i just can't envision the changes that your ideas need19:19
aelkneri'd like to see what th1a comes up with today19:19
aelknercorrect me if i'm wrong but19:20
aelknerall of our views use the page macro as the shell19:20
aelknerthe views don't know about the shell and therefore don't test it19:20
aelknerso the shell doesn't matter to them19:21
ignasmost of them don't19:21
ignasunit test it19:21
aelkneri'm talking functional tests here19:21
ignasbut all of the functional tests rely on it providing some links19:21
ignasbut not too much19:21
aelkneri understand19:22
aelknerthe functional tests do things like19:22
aelkner'Persons' click19:22
aelkner'Add New Person' click19:22
aelknerto set up the person for their test19:22
aelkneris that what you mean?19:22
aelknerfiar enough19:22
aelknerso the tests will have to change19:23
ignasmy concern is about views like "@@members_persons.html", "timetables", "calendar" that have the section as their context19:23
ignasyour plan is not leaving any well defined places for them19:23
ignasand the global page macro19:23
ignashas to know nothing about timetables and nothing about attendance19:23
ignasby default19:23
ignasbecause else - whole schooltool starts depending on attendance19:24
aelknerwhy not have the section be the current context19:24
aelknerand have members be a tab19:24
aelkneras well as attendance19:24
aelknerand gradebook19:24
aelkneror anything else for that matter19:24
ignasbecause that requires addition of a plugin point for "object specific tabs"19:25
ignasre registering of all of these views as tabs19:25
ignasmaking these new tabs check permissions19:25
ignasmaking it work if some object has no such tabs19:25
aelknerthe sections taught tab is part of the page macro19:26
aelknerit in turn delivers the sections tabs under it19:26
aelknerunder that we have the rest of the tabs19:27
ignasso every single tab19:27
ignaswill have it's own "subtabs"19:27
th1aI agree with ignas that these changes are much less simple than they seem.19:27
aelknerthey can be rendered by registering against a special interface19:27
ignasthat it will know how to render19:27
th1aAnd simply not worth the trouble given the overall state of the application.19:27
ignasaelkner: if you are adding so many things maybe you could just do it for SLA19:28
ignasand if we'll see that it is really good, we'll try moving it to the mainline19:28
aelkneri'm trying to solve cando and jelkner's problems at the same time19:28
aelknerthat's the whole idea19:28
ignasi understand, but I am not sure we will have enough time to solve it for schooltool19:28
ignasduring this sprint19:29
aelkneri believe that we are only working on this at the sprint19:29
aelknerand we have a lot of resources19:29
aelknerand a whole week19:29
aelknernot just the sprint, but also the conference19:29
ignasmost of the tasks for this do not really scale19:29
th1aThese are not big problems.19:30
th1aI mean, jelkner's and CanDo's.19:30
th1aNot big enough to justify complex solutions.19:30
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aelknerso i'm hearing what we can't do19:32
aelknerand i'm happy to agree that we can't do things19:32
aelknerso what are we going to do at the sprint?19:34
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ignashmm, implement the simple solution19:34
aelknerwhat's the simple solution?19:34
ignaswhile some interns will be working on polishing things like19:34
ignasyearly calendar view19:34
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th1aWell, the fact of the matter is we're going to be pretty much implementing what you and dwelsh drew up.19:34
ignasthe one that i have outlined, the one that makes tabs plain links19:34
ignasand moves most of the navigation menu19:35
ignasinto a pseudo dashboard "admin" and "school" tab pages19:35
ignasand fixes the template to make tabs look like tabs19:35
ignasand actions menu look like buttons19:35
ignasand redo all the functional tests to access most of the admin things through 2 clicks instead of 1 click19:36
ignasmeanwhile some interns will work on yearly calendar view fixes19:36
ignasa bit of cando buildoutization19:36
ignasschooltool.lyceum.journal polishing19:36
ignasto make it a bit more generic19:37
ignasschooltool.timetabling view fixes to make it a bit more straighforward to manually add a timetable19:37
ignasmaybe even extend schooltool.lyceum.journal attendance views19:38
ignasbut i don't think we'll have enough time for that19:38
ignasmy goal for the sprint is to have something "usable enough"19:41
ignasso if someone asks how to do "some task" we say "click there, click there, click there" instead of saying - in theory we can, but we forgot to add the view in our release...19:42
ignasok, i have to go now, and my coworkers need to use my "Windows XP"19:44
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aelknerth1a: when I took the seminar on "User Centered Design"19:45
aelknerhe suggested starting with what he called a "Low Fidelity Prototype"19:45
aelknerthat's exactly19:45
aelknerwhat you suggested earlier19:45
aelknerPaper Prototyping"19:45
aelknerso I'm fine with your doing that19:46
aelkneras long as we can all have access to it19:46
aelknercan you post a film of it?19:46
aelknerth1a: ?19:46
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th1aaelkner: I will take pictures.19:56
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