IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-09-17

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jfroche__ignas: hello ! should i create a bzr branch for my school ?13:08
ignasif you want to13:09
ignasi just have to test out bzr before migrating schooltool to it13:09
ignasso i am using lyceum as the pilot13:09
jfroche__oh ok i thought you did it for your school13:09
ignasyes i am doing it for my school, but that's not mandatory for you or anything13:09
jfroche__ok tell me when i should do it13:10
ignaswhat you might want to look at is - moving your school out of the branch13:10
ignasthe way lyceum branch is in svn13:10
ignasas in - lyceum is using schooltool egg now13:10
jfroche__ok i am looking13:10
ignasand is not living in the same place as schooltool13:11
jfroche__but you still have a src/schooltool in your branch13:12
ignasthat's the old one13:13
ignasis the new one13:13
ignasi will delete the old one soon13:13
jfroche__nice :)13:13
ignasso my point was that you might want to move your school code into a separate repository/package13:14
jfroche__for ?13:15
jfroche__i should also a trunk/jacqmain ?13:16
ignasand use schooltool as an egg13:16
jfroche__ok ok13:17
jfroche__doing it13:17
ignasthough if you are not using buildout you might have to copy more of the infrastructure13:17
ignasif you are - then just create something like "lyceum-buildout"13:17
ignasit's like 3-4 files anyway13:17
jfroche__yep i ll create buildout package for me too13:18
ignasor like cando-buildout13:18
jfroche__it's much nicer with eggs ! i like it13:18
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jfroche__ignas: does it affect something that pytz timezone is set to Vilnius in ?13:22
ignasit's not set13:22
ignasthe schooltool just tests if pytz works13:22
ignasa workaround for an ubuntu bug13:22
jfroche__about the release, what will happen if zope 3.4 isn't released in next ubuntu ?13:23
ignasit won't get released13:27
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jfroche__ignas: where does buildout should look for the schooltool eggs ? pypi ?14:30
ignaslook for url in cando-buildout or lyceum-buildout14:35
jfroche__ignas: have you tried the dev mode package from buildout15:22
jfroche__looks like apidoc isn't installed15:22
ignasthen add schooltool checkout to your development eggs15:23
ignasand try playing with dependencies in setup.py15:23
ignasor - add apidoc eggs to your recipe15:24
ignasand tell me which ones make it work15:24
ignasthen i will add them to of schooltool15:24
jfroche__ok will look15:24
ignasby the way15:29
ignasif you need your branch with all the history migrated to bzr15:29
ignasi can do that15:29
jfroche__ah didnt know that15:35
jfroche__i already push15:35
jfroche__there is some kind of script ?15:35
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jfroche__good morning th1a_ & th1a__15:39
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th1agood morning jfroche.15:40
jfroche__ignas: imagine i need a group factory on schooltool so that i can use my own groups, what is the path ? ci on trunk or branch trunk for jacqmain and merge back as soon as i am told you it's ready for merge ?15:41
ignasbranch trunk15:42
ignaswork on it15:42
ignasand ask me to review it before commiting15:42
jfroche__on svn right ? not yet on bzr ?15:42
th1aOK... I have my coffee now...15:45
jfroche__ignas: if i want to still run my branch on my buildout, i have to recreate an egg of schooltool and upload it somewhere ?15:48
ignashmm, if you are using a custom schooltool16:01
ignasthen you will have to checkout your schooltool branch16:01
ignasinto your buildout16:01
ignasand add that schooltool checkout to your development eggs16:01
ignasdevelop = your-school schooltool16:01
ignaswhere your-school is a checkout of your school plugin and schooltool is a checkout of schooltool16:02
jfroche__in your buildout makefile you are doing bzr co lyceum --lightweight ... i do the same with my branch but i can't ci after that shouldn't it be something like bzr branch s ?16:07
ignashmm, do you have your jacqmain branch exported to bzr?16:07
ignaswith all the history?16:07
* mgedmin idly remarks that you can replace '' with 'lp:'16:07
jfroche__ignas: i didn't know that we could keep the history, i did it before you told me16:08
jfroche__good to know mgedmin, tks16:08
ignaswell - you can keep it16:08
ignasso if you want to use bzr16:08
ignasi could try and help you migrate16:08
jfroche__i am interested yes16:09
jfroche__should i remove what i pushed ?16:09
ignasyou will still have to create trunk/jacqmain/16:09
ignasdoing "svn cp" from your branch16:09
ignasand make it work16:09
ignasso you would have 2 separate svn checkouts in your buildout16:10
ignastrunk/jacqmain for jacqmain16:10
ignasand branches/schooltool-jacqmain16:10
ignasfor the modified schooltool16:10
jfroche__ignas: i created a new schooltool branch cause there is way to much changes since i commited16:10
jfroche__so that you couldn't review the changes16:11
ignaswhen you will have these working i will help you migrate trunk/jacqmain to bzr while persisting history16:11
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th1aOK... I'm trying the magic Makefile for Gutsy packages.16:28
* th1a is kind of afraid of the Magic Makefile.16:28
th1aHm... dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: python2.4-schoolbell (>= 1.2.4-2)16:29
Lumierehola th1a16:30
th1aHi Lumiere16:30
* th1a shuffles some papers around.16:30
aelknerhey all16:31
th1aI forgot to send out a note about the meeting this morning.16:31
th1aHi aelkner.16:31
aelknerdid you see jeff's latest note?16:31
th1aaelkner: I'm not sure which is his latest.16:32
aelknerabout the gradebook, and that he can't use it the wat it is16:32
ignaswho can fix that?16:32
th1aI think jeff needs to punt for now.16:33
th1aMaybe do this next semester.16:33
th1aI mean, work on the gradebook now.16:33
th1aBut don't use it for real until later.16:33
aelkneryou should tell him that16:34
LumiereI agree, there is no reason he can't use just a spreadsheet16:34
th1ahi wjohnsto.16:34
wjohnsto_I was actually working on gradebook last night16:34
Lumiereuntil next semester16:34
ignasth1a: what is Jeff using as a gradebook at the moment?16:34
Lumiereignas: schooltool.gradebook16:34
th1aWax tablet?16:34
wjohnsto_and I managed to get everything that jelkner wants to work16:34
ignasLumiere: he can't use it, so i assume he's using something else16:34
wjohnsto_jelkner is using jelkner-gradebook16:34
Lumiereignas: then he's probably not keeping any grades16:34
th1aLumiere: Yes...16:35
Lumierehe's stubborn about that sort of thing16:35
Lumierewjohnsto_: jelkner-gradebook is a branch, no?16:35
th1awjohnsto_: If you can get him going, great.16:35
wjohnsto_yes it is16:35
th1aI created that branch for you.16:35
Lumierethe question as posed was a little more generic ;)16:35
wjohnsto_well I fixed the bug that jelkner submitted16:36
wjohnsto_but I cant check in, so he doesn't know that yet16:36
aelknerwe should fix that then16:36
wjohnsto_I sent jinty my public key16:36
th1awjohnsto_: Do we have your ssh key?16:37
wjohnsto_I can send it to you if you want16:37
wjohnsto_although I can't do too much now, I'm at school16:37
Lumierefor now, send a diff to ignas i guess would be the way to get it committed for now16:37
ignasi guess16:37
ignasa question16:37
ignaswhat kind of quality control do you want for gradebook?16:37
ignasi mean - should i demand tests and PEP816:39
Lumiereand at some point16:40
th1aI kind of think we should let them go quickly and clean up after.16:40
Lumiereth1a: yes, but tests and well formed code should be required now16:40
th1aOtherwise jelkner is really going to have an aneurysm.16:40
Lumierewell written code, can be brought in16:40
Lumiereas cleanup16:41
ignasok, but don't ask me to merge it to trunk then16:41
th1aThat wasn't my intention.16:41
ignasand no "well, we need it in the release, but there are only 2 weeks left"16:41
th1aignas: I know.16:42
ignasi just want to be sure16:42
* Lumiere applauds ignas 16:42
aelknerLumiere: if the code is not integrated into trunk, how would jeff get it?16:42
jfroche__i missed a train, will st will be released in next ubuntu release at last ?16:42
th1aI'm not making any kind of pronouncement about this.16:42
aelknerhe's using cando which checks out schooltool's trunk code16:42
Lumiereaelkner: he's on a branch16:43
Lumiereand his cando and gradebook16:43
aelknera branch of cando?16:43
Lumiereare separate16:43
ignasaelkner: a branch of schooltool16:43
aelknerso he has two instances, one cando and one schooltool?16:43
Lumierehe uses a schooltool branch for gradebook and a cando trunk (then release) instance for comps16:43
th1aI'm just saying that jelkner needs some fast turnaround in the short term.16:43
th1aPrimarily with student interns.16:44
th1aReally this should be Jeff's decision.16:44
ignasthen just warn him that getting the new gradebook into a schooltool release won't be something that can happen easily16:45
wjohnsto_I know he will want it done, I can go over to his room right now and ask him if you want16:45
Lumierejfroche__: st's not getting a release into gutsy16:45
ignasno matter how good/easy the gradebook will be to use16:45
Lumierebut will be releasing in a separate repository for gutsy16:45
th1aI should just stay out of this.16:45
th1aJeff needs to decide what he wants.16:46
Lumiereignas: my suggestion is that you put together a list of what is required to get it merged16:46
Lumiereand let wjohnsto_ know16:46
Lumiereso that he can ensure that it meets that level of quality16:46
Lumiereby the END of his work on it16:47
th1aI guess this gets back to my feeling that it is too late to do this on the fly with interns.16:47
Lumierewith all of us knowing that between now and then, it is unlikely to be there16:47
th1aCan't do fast/cheap/good.16:47
Lumiereth1a: well, that's a choice too, but I doubt jeff's going to want to start on one and move to the other16:48
Lumiereth1a: I don't think even ignas is asking for gorgeous code right now16:48
aelknerhe was just asking for PEP8 and tests16:48
LumiereI think he just wants high coverage and well formed code16:48
ignasLumiere: i am asking for unit tests, functional tests, PEP8 which is actually a lot16:49
th1aI should just shut up on this.16:49
ignasthese things can reduce their features per hour speed dramatically16:49
mgedminbugs per hour too, hopefully16:50
ignasaelkner: i would not merge CanDo to trunk16:50
aelknerhow do you mean?16:50
Lumieremgedmin: yes16:50
ignasquality standards16:50
LumiereI'd rather have low features/hr16:50
Lumiereand very low bugs/gr16:50
ignasLumiere: sometimes when prototyping16:50
Lumiereerr hr16:50
ignaswhich jeff will want to do16:50
ignasit might be useful to have a high speed16:50
Lumiereignas: most of what he wants is there16:50
ignasschooltool test coverage vs cando test coverage (unit test)16:51
Lumieremost of the features I think he's looking for are longer-term16:51
ignasaelkner: ^16:51
Lumiereaelkner: yea, cando's got horrid coverage16:51
Lumiereand needs a year of refactoring16:51
ignasthat one i can live with16:51
Lumiereonce we get 2007.12 out16:51
Lumiereignas: I can't in some cases16:52
Lumierethere are some that are bogging stuff down16:52
ignasany things we can decide/solve without jelkner?16:53
ignasbecause all these decisions seem to be for him to make16:53
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jelkneraelkner: hey bro16:54
th1ahi jelkner.16:54
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aelknerjelkner: were you ears burning?16:54
jelknerwill brady found a cando bug in the grade book16:54
jelknerhi th1a!16:54
Lumierejelkner: how was that sneezing attack16:55
jelknerlooks like pcardune's ajax16:55
aelknerjelkner: huh?16:56
Lumierejelkner: report it to lp16:56
ignasjelkner: you have mentioned that you need changes made by interns reviewed16:56
jelknerwill did that16:56
ignasjelkner: my question was - how much reviewed?16:57
jelkneryou mean in the CanDo grade book?16:57
Lumierejelkner: no schooltool16:57
th1ajelkner's gradebook.16:57
Lumierejelkner: ignas wants to know how much review should be done16:58
ignasit's in schooltool isn't iy?16:58
ignasdo you want trunk quality code, or do you want them to hack it as fast as possible to keep up with all the feature requests16:58
jelkneri only have the following features that need to be there:16:58
jelkner1. a column showing average grade16:58
jelkner2. students can view grades16:58
jelknerthat's all i need16:59
Lumiere2 for themselves?16:59
ignasare you using the gradebook at the moment?16:59
jelkneronly themselves16:59
jelkneri'm using it16:59
jelknerthat's the plan16:59
jelknerit will be the only gradebook i have16:59
ignasi see17:00
ignasso you are not expecting any unexpected must be improvements to be necessary?17:00
* ignas just does not want to yell at people that won't listen to him, because "feature A is more important, and they will write the test later"17:00
jelknerhere are *all* the improvements that will be needed this year:17:00
jelkner1. by November, it must support creation of a new term17:01
jelkner2. by January, it needs to be able to average terms and report a final grade17:02
jelkner(for a semester course)17:02
aelknerjelkner: you seem to be ignoring ignas' questions about code quality17:02
jelkner3. by June, it must average 4 quarters and a final exam and report a final grade17:02
jelkneraelkner: i'm not in a position to answer that17:02
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jelkneri'm a customer17:03
jelkneryou all need to address quality issues17:03
th1ajelkner: You're a customer, but your student is the developer.17:03
th1aNot us.17:03
jelkneri can only tell you what i need to use the grade book and what works and doesn't work17:03
jelknerso we will need someone to review their work17:03
jelkneragain, i can't do that17:03
Lumierejelkner: the question posed is this17:04
th1ajelkner: Look, if you want this to happen, you have to quit mincing around.17:04
th1aSchoolTool is paying for this.17:04
LumiereIs it more important that things go fast17:04
th1aYou are the customer, and your student is the developer.17:04
Lumiereor is it more important that in the end this is releasable17:04
jelknerth1a: tom, i'm not trying to "mince around", really17:05
ignasLumiere: he can't answer this17:05
jelknerplease just tell me what to do17:05
jelkneri'll do it17:05
th1aIN THE END, this needs to be releasable.17:05
ignasLumiere: only his interns or someone who knows them can estimate17:05
ignashow much work is in the features mentioned17:05
Lumierethen wjohnsto should answer it17:05
th1aIf we require the code to be correct when it is checked in, initial development will go at 1/3rd the rate it will if you plow ahead.17:06
th1aIt'll all take the same amount of time in the end.17:06
th1aMaybe more if you cut corners up front.17:06
ignasth1a: might take a bit more17:07
th1aThe real problem is that it might never get done.17:07
th1aThat's the actual problem.17:07
aelknerjelkner: you follow what's being said here?17:08
th1aFrom my perspective, I can't understand why we're just not doing whatever you normally do for CanDo.17:08
aelknernormally CanDo was developed quickly without high coding standards17:09
aelknerthat's why ignas wouldn't accept it into schooltol trunk17:09
mgallaghwell we were planning to switch to a new branch for gradebook , so that your development wont be negativley affected by our needs.17:09
ignasmgallagh: what goes up, must go down (or get merged to trunk eventually)17:10
ignasunless you are in the mood of rewriting everything correctly17:10
ignasif we need speed, then i don't see much use in me reviewing changes, i will look at it17:11
ignasbut understanding code modifications without seeing tests modified17:11
ignasis a lot more difficult17:11
ignasbut if you want me to review them well, then get ready to do it slowly, because i will insist on things being fixed (missing tests written)17:12
ignasbefore new code gets added17:13
ignasi guess we will try the high quality thing17:13
th1aLet's get a little more concrete here.17:13
ignasand if it goes too slow17:13
ignasi'll just let them go17:13
th1aJeff has a small set of things he needs to start doing grades.17:13
th1aHe needs these three weeks ago.17:13
th1amgallagh and wjohnsto need to get these done and check them in quickly.17:14
ignasand needs them commited yesterday17:14
th1aThen clean them up an submit them to ignas.17:14
th1aThen move on to the next batch of stuff jelkner needs.17:14
th1aIf they have time, do it right the first time;17:14
th1aif not, just get it running for the end of the quarter and clean it up.17:15
th1aMake sense?17:15
ignas"and clean it up" does not17:15
ignasif they don't have time in this quarter17:15
ignasborrowing it from the next quarter17:15
ignasdoes not work well17:15
ignasand postponing clean up17:16
ignasdoes just that17:16
th1aWell, we can't have fast, cheap and good.17:16
th1aPick two.17:16
ignasi would like to try "cheap and good" and if that is too slo17:16
ignasthen "fast and cheap"17:16
ignasso if they won't manage to hit deadlines, they'll have to drop wuality17:16
th1aWe have to start with fast, because jelkner is three weeks into the school year.17:17
ignaswell - hotfixes17:17
ignasis a different arena17:17
ignasthese small fixes17:18
ignasare an exception17:19
ignasgetting system to work is more important than anything else most of the time17:19
ignasit's not a feature per se ;)17:19
th1aI guess I should also point out that I don't expect all this work to land in the trunk.17:20
th1aThe back end for terms will be changing, so that part should be implemented shallowly in the trunk.17:20
th1aNot "shallowly in the trunk."17:21
th1aShallowly in the branch.17:21
aelknerso the plan is to have jelkner run off of his branch until the interns have time to clean it up to integrate i into trunk?17:22
th1aThat is, there will be a new, more complex term system needed, which won't be done before the end of jelkner's first term.17:22
th1aSo they should just do something simple that works for now.17:22
jelknerand if i *must* just use a kludge, i'm willing17:22
aelknerjelkner: just so i'm sure i understand:17:23
th1aI would hope that it won't look like a kludge.17:23
aelkner1) you are using cando in one instance17:23
jelknerfor example, i could just start a new section for each section in quarter 217:23
th1aJust be a kludge behind the scenes.17:23
aelkner2) you are using jelkner-gradebook branch of schooltolol for another instance17:23
jelknerbut then i would need to get the data back together by january17:23
aelknerjelkner: you have two instances with two different Data.fs files, right?17:24
aelknerso it's like you're using two different apps17:25
aelknerand you don't need the two Data.fs files to be merged in the future i hope17:26
th1aThere will probably be an import/export necessary at some point.17:26
aelknerthat could work17:27
th1aIt is pretty tabular data.17:27
th1aWe need to reach some conclusions here.17:28
aelkneri can't seem to get jelkner to answer any of my questions17:28
th1aPerhaps he's teaching.17:28
th1aTeaching is very distracting.17:28
aelknerto the teacher or the students?17:29
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th1aI think at this point they should focus on getting their local instance running.17:29
aelkneryou mean instances plural, don't you?17:30
th1aWithout routing everything through our repository.17:30
th1aI'm not even thinking about CanDo.17:30
aelknerso we're just talking about jelkner-gradebook17:30
th1aThat's what I'm worried about.17:30
th1aIn other news, I need August invoices from ignas and jfroche__.17:32
th1aI need to get paid.17:32
th1aAlso, what do you have coming up this week, jfroche__?17:33
ignashmm, i thought Aiste sent you the invoice17:33
jfroche__oh right will do17:33
jfroche__th1a: meeting with schooltool this week i hope and meeting with Nicolas tomorrow17:33
jfroche__creating buildout for my school & moving to bzr17:34
jfroche__Nicolas speaking about st to his new school which are more interested 'cause the old application they have doesn't get maintained anymore17:35
ignasth1a: by the way17:44
ignasfor the date17:44
ignascould you pick a tuesday in the end of october17:44
ignasthat would be good for you17:44
th1ajfroche__: Sorry... I was talking to jelkner on the phone.17:45
LumiereI am out17:48
Lumierehave a code push to prep17:48
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:48
* Lumiere detaches17:48
th1aignas & jfroche__:  My wife booked my flights to and from Europe yesterday.17:48
ignasth1a: and what's the date?17:49
th1aSo I'm landing in Vilnius on Oct. 28.17:49
ignasand staying for how long?17:50
th1aLeaving Brussels Nov 3.17:50
th1aAnd I haven't decided when I'm flying to Brussels, but Wednesday seems the obvious time.17:50
ignasi'll inform the school17:51
th1ajfroche__: That's interesting about Nicolas's new school.17:51
th1aignas: Thanks.17:51
jfroche__will do the same17:51
th1ajfroche__: Thanks.17:51
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ignashmm, absolutely worst case of gradebook now renders in 3 - 4 seconds18:07
ignasnow onto AJAX18:07
ignasto make it slower18:07
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jfroche__ignas: just need this change for my branch to work:
jfroche__my branch is now in with the history18:51
jfroche__when you have time we can look on how to export this to bzr18:52
jfroche__with the history18:52
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