IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2007-09-04

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mattva01hey just got my PPA14:17
mattva01will be uploading schooltool source packages today, cando tomorrow14:18
mattva01probably gasp today was well14:20
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mattva01hey jef14:29
jelknergood morning!14:29
jelknermattva01: when is wanda picking you up?14:30
mattva01just got accepted into launchpad-beta testers14:30
mattva01no idea14:30
mattva01I thought 6 3014:30
jelkneri guess not ;-)14:30
mattva01she doesnt have a cell or something does she?14:30
jelknerlet me check...14:30
jelknerI don't have it...14:31
mattva01btw if you can find the gasp source I can put that in the PPA today14:31
jelknerI'd offer to pick you up, but I need to get ready for classes...14:31
mattva01im also gonna do some of the schooltool stuff tonight14:31
mattva01I can walk14:31
jelknerlet's ask james about gasp14:32
mattva01I just want to make sure she doesnt come by here looking for me14:32
jelkneri can't do anything today but school stuff14:32
mattva01well thats what I meant14:32
mattva01I dont have his number14:32
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Lumierehi ignas15:37
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Lumiere'morning jelkner16:03
th1aHi ignas, jelkner, Lumiere.16:27
th1ajfr won't be with us today.16:27
th1aAlso, I forgot I'm starting my new schedule today, which involves taking care of Vivian on Tuesdays and Thursdays.16:28
th1aShe's napping now.16:28
jelknerLumiere: morning16:28
th1aSo I'll be working mostly evenings Tue/Thurs.16:28
th1aHi aelkner as well.16:28
Lumiereth1a: that shouldn't be too much of an issue16:29
jelkner(note: i'll only be able to be half way here... getting ready for the arrival of students 'n all)16:29
aelknerhappy birthday Lumiere16:29
jelknerHappy B'Day, Mr. Straw!16:29
ignasth1a: hi16:29
th1aHappy Birthday, Lumiere!16:30
th1aHi ignas.16:30
Lumierethank you16:30
ignasLumiere: happy birthday, spend your skill points wisely ;)16:30
Lumiereignas: i got skill points today?16:30
LumiereI thought I started losing em after univ.16:30
th1aBlacksmithing can be profitable.16:31
Lumiereso can alchemy16:31
th1aOK, ignas, what's up in Vilnius?16:31
ignasget your "clue bat" to 30016:31
ignasth1a: real sorry, but i don't have the date at the moment16:31
Lumierethat will work16:31
ignasSkūpas has talked to most of the people16:32
th1aignas: To meet?16:32
th1aIn October?16:32
ignasto fly to lithuania16:32
ignasbut hasn't been able to pinpoint it yet16:32
ignashe'll try to do that as soon as he can16:32
ignasand i'll tell you immediately16:32
th1aOK.  I'd rather make sure I'm there on a good day than save a few bucks on the flight.16:33
ignasother than that, i am working on gradebook, testing bzr, making schooltool a bit easier to deploy/develop16:34
th1aOK... Lumiere, what's going on in CanDo-land?16:35
aelkneri need to get with ignas to make a change to schooltool16:37
th1aaelkner: What's the change?16:38
Lumiereth1a: aelkner has been working 30-40 a week on it16:38
LumiereI'll continue to let him describe his work16:38
aelknerok, before the change...16:38
Lumiere(he's currently one of 3 active developers)16:38
aelkneri've been working on the new skin16:38
aelknergetting it to look like Dave and Jeff wat it16:39
Lumiere(the others being filip, and matt)16:39
aelknerall of the changes have been localized to the cando package16:39
aelknermostly the issues have surrounded navigation around the new skin16:40
aelknernothing terribly interesting to schooltool16:40
aelknerpaul says nobody uses the add/edit requirement menu items16:40
aelkneris that true?16:40
ignasi am not using them16:40
aelknerthat's what i want to remove from schooltool16:41
ignasmaybe jfroche is16:41
aelknerhe's not here16:41
ignasby the way16:41
ignasthere are 2 ways16:41
ignasyou can convert them to viewlets16:41
ignasand then "cover" them in cando skin16:41
ignasor remove them altogether16:41
ignasif you will convert them to viewlets16:42
ignasi will apply the patch right away16:42
aelkneri could use your help doing that as i also need to change the menu items for information links16:42
ignasas that will not break anything to anyone16:42
th1aYou mean because requirements are really a base class that the end user doesn't need to use?16:42
th1aAs in why we don't need the menu items?16:43
aelknerignas: can we go over this after the meeting step by step?16:44
th1aaelkner: I'm unclear on which menu we're talking about.16:45
ignasjust point me at the place the menu items are defined in16:45
aelknerwell, there's two places:16:45
ignasemm, i don't have schooltool.information it seems16:47
aelkneractually i don't find the second package16:47
aelkneri'll have to grep for that menu item, wait16:48
aelknerok, never mind that, we have our own package called curriculum for information16:48
aelkneri had just assumed it was a schooltool package16:48
Lumiereaelkner: that makes it easier16:50
ignasth1a: anything else related to schooltool? or should i just engage in technical discussions now? ;)16:50
th1aI would just like to know what we're talking about from the user perspective.16:50
aelknerthe curriculum stuff is just for us16:50
aelknerthe requirements stuff may be used by jfroche16:51
jelknerth1a: are we going to talk strategy, or is this a technical meeting?16:51
aelknerlet jelkner speak16:51
th1ajelkner: We can talk strategy.16:51
jelknerit's just that i normally can't attend these16:51
th1aYes, yes.16:51
jelknerthe freshmen meeting today gives me a rare opportunity16:51
jelkneri wanted to talk about how to utilize the new talent we have16:52
jelknerwe've got at least the following list of promising young schooltool/cando developers:16:52
jelkner1. filip16:52
jelkner2. andrew16:52
Lumiere3. filip XD16:53
jelkner3. brittney16:53
Lumierejelkner: give my sarcastic sense of humor a break :)16:53
jelkner4. chris16:53
jelknerthose are the top 4, all of whom have expressed interest in continuing working on the project16:54
jelknerdepending on our needs and capacity to make use of them, i could probably come up with a few more16:54
jelknerand then will dickerson will be back too16:54
jelknerstarting today16:54
jelknerso, in brief16:55
jelknerwe need a plan to effectively integrate these folks into the project16:55
jelkneri think it is a "use them or loose them" situation16:55
jelknerso we need to be thinking seriously about that16:55
jelknerthere are 2 aspects:16:55
jelkner1. technical - what can we have them do that will help the project?16:56
LumiereI don't want to lose anyone, but CanDo is still dev frozen till release16:56
jelkner2. financial - how do we pay them?16:56
th1aI'll look through my remaining money today.16:56
th1aI know I've spent less than I planned on.16:56
jelknerin the case of brittney, she will be working on the gradebook that paul started16:57
th1aIt might be safest to put them all on gradebook.16:57
jelkneri'll probably need help (from mattva01, Lumiere, jinty, etc.) getting the infrastructure setup for her16:57
jelkneri will be running a gradebook branch to do my grades this year16:57
th1aPut them all to work for jelkner's personal desires.16:57
Lumiereth1a: don't even16:58
Lumiereabout suggesting that XD16:58
jelknerespecially when my desires are to see schooltool become a usable SIS ;-)16:58
th1aWell, GRADEBOOK desires.16:58
Lumieregradebook is good16:58
jelkneri'll try to keep my desires as generic as possible16:58
Lumierejelkner: just run them through us :)16:59
jelknerthings all teachers (in the US at least) will want16:59
jelknerof course16:59
Lumierewe'll make sure we keep it generic ;)16:59
jelkneractually, i'm not a power user of gradebooks16:59
* Lumiere puts a blanket over doc-test quiz16:59
jelknerso that should not be a problem16:59
jelknerdoc-test quiz is for cando16:59
LumiereI know16:59
jelknerwill deal with that later ;-)17:00
jelknerall i need for gradebook is terms17:00
th1aOK.  So I'll figure out the budget.17:00
jelknerand averages of terms17:00
jelknerth1a: that would be great17:00
jelknerand perhaps a way to export my grades to eschoolsplus17:00
jelknerthat's a long shot17:01
th1aWell, you probably want a simple implementation that understands terms.17:01
th1aThat is, you don't want to try to write a new term implementation.17:01
jelknerbrittney has been told that is her first job17:01
jelknerof course17:01
th1aYou just want gradebook objects that understand that they belong to a given section and term.17:01
jelknerwe want to do the simplest thing that works17:02
LumiereI think the hard part17:02
th1aBut one thing to keep in mind is that you can't assume that the section instance will hang around.17:02
th1aAt this point.17:02
Lumierewill be getting schooltool to understand that there are multiple terms in a year17:02
jelknerbut the grades must17:02
aelknergradebooks should hang off of a section17:02
th1aStephan and I did a hierarchical terms implementation.17:03
th1aIt is in svn somewhere.17:03
th1aSo you can have Year > Semester > grading period.17:03
th1aThe real problem is the archiving old sections, graduating students, etc. stuff.17:03
jelknerwe don't need to go into all this now17:03
jelkneri don't want to monopolize the meeting17:04
jelkneri'll follow up with email17:04
th1aWell, we don't have a packed agenda.17:04
jelknerthe main thing is getting brittney setup17:04
Lumierejelkner: provide a server, we'll set something up17:04
jelkneryes, but my brother has more pressing needs17:04
ignasi'd suggest not caring about section archival at the moment, and just assuming that sections will stay in there17:04
th1aThe other thing I need to know is whether ignas is ok with the basic proposal for making next year more bounty-focused.17:05
ignashiding old sections is for schooltool to do17:05
ignasnot for gradebook17:05
ignasth1a: as long as we have a way to say "fix these 5 issues" then you will get your bounty, i am all for it17:05
th1aI thought we chatted about it last week, but then I realized we might have been talking about different emails.17:05
th1aignas: You'd have to sign off on any bounty.17:05
th1aWe would be very clear about that.17:06
th1aAnd I think we'd want no more than 1 work/week bounties.17:06
th1aSo it wouldn't be like, "oh, you worked two months on this and did the entirely wrong thing."17:06
ignaswould make sense17:07
jelknerwe will be working with young folks on these17:07
LumiereI assume17:07
Lumiereanyone working on bounties17:07
Lumierewill have to be in the dev meetings17:07
ignasthis plan pushes the responsibility for splitting up of work into small well defined chunks that can make up something big on us17:07
jelkneri don't care how you do it, as long as you are happy and they feel they know what is expected of them17:07
Lumiereand reporting their progress17:07
ignasand leaves the responsibility for doing a good job17:07
ignason them17:07
Lumiereignas: yes17:08
th1aOrganizing the work will take time.17:08
*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | new trial release coming for Ubuntu Gutsy! | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC (15:30 EET) - CanDo Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (10:30 US/Eastern) | Use for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you!"17:08
jelknerth1a: my concern is that we don't loose the initiative17:09
Lumiereaelkner: is dwelsh on the phone with you still17:09
jelknerwe had difficulties with the process last summer17:09
Lumierejelkner: use gradebook17:09
jelknerwe couldn't keep up17:10
Lumiereto keep intertia17:10
jelknerLumiere: i will, for brittney17:10
jelknerso she has her task17:10
jelknerbut we need other useful work for others17:10
Lumieregive someone help17:10
jelknerwhat about attendance?17:10
jelknerit all seems straight forward to me17:10
Lumiereattendance has wrinkles as I recall17:11
th1ajelkner: I will get back to you on the $$$ today or tomorrow, and then you can go nuts.17:11
jelkneridentify the core things that ST must have to be a usable SIS17:11
jelknerthen get folks working on those things17:11
Lumiereattendance will need setup stuff like terms and timetables17:11
jelknerth1a: can i call you about 5 pm?17:11
jelkneri need to go now17:11
th1ajelkner: That should be fine.17:11
jelknerthe first student just arrived17:11
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ignasLumiere: the only way to find out whether it has wrinkles is - to try using it17:12
th1aAttendance, globally, has infinite wrinkles.17:12
ignasth1a: by the way, what do you think about the idea of accepting proposals for bounties from users17:13
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th1aignas: Definitely.17:13
th1aThat's key.17:13
ignasi mean if someone like Lumiere would try using attendance i would be quite glad if he'd write up what things he wants improved17:13
th1aBasically, we don't take new official "partners" and just work with the cloud.17:13
th1aIf Nepal wants a lunar calendar we add it to the pile, and then we need a process to decide which ones to do.17:14
th1aBut we'll need them to write good specifications.17:14
LumiereI'd be a bad example for attendance17:14
th1aThe whole Ubuntu process has become a good example for this kind of thing.17:15
LumiereI don't think kids should be forced to attend classes >:)17:15
aelknerjelkner cares about attendance17:15
Lumiereif they miss class17:15
Lumierethey fail17:15
th1aYou just have to start with a simple implementation.17:15
ignasLumiere: you don't have to force, you might want to keep them updated on "what they have missed" in some centralized manner17:15
th1aOur crack at it last year failed because I tried to spec a cool, innovative attendance system.17:16
Lumiereignas: yea17:16
th1aThis project has taught me that innovation is overrated.17:16
aelkneryes, practicallity is better17:17
aelknerpeople have to like what you give them to use17:17
th1aOh, they would have liked my attendance system.17:18
th1aWhen it was finished in 2012.17:18
aelknerisn't that the year that we all transform17:19
aelknerand join the astro-plain17:19
aelkneror somthing like that17:19
th1aI've pre-ordered my mech suit.17:19
th1aluckily Vivian napped through the whole meeting.17:20
aelknergood girl17:20
th1aThat's all I've got.17:20
th1aI'll be focusing on coming up with more specific plans for next year.17:20
th1aignas: You can send me an invoice for August.17:21
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:22
ignasth1a: Ok, i'll ask Aiste to do that17:22
th1aYou are now free to discuss technical minutiae.17:22
aelknerignas: could we work on the requirements menu items now?17:22
* Lumiere steals the birthday cake and runs17:22
Aisteth1a: I'm in the process of preparing the invoice now17:23
ignasso what you want to do as the first step is - remove the menu="schooltool_actions" title="Edit Requirement" from the editform registration17:23
th1aAiste: Thanks.17:23
aelknerand addform17:23
aelknerno, nvm17:24
ignasaddform has no menu attribute it seems17:24
aelknerthere is a menu item for add at the bottom17:24
aelknerso that needs to be removed, too17:24
ignasseems so17:24
aelknerignas: i could make the change if you help me access the repository17:25
aelkneri have signed the agreement and registered my provate key17:25
aelknerwhat's the svn co command i need to use?17:25
ignassvn co svn+ssh://
Lumiereback later17:26
Lumiereoff to shower and work17:26
ignasthe next step is to add a navigationViewlet directive17:27
lisppaste5ignas pasted "navigationViewlet" at
ignasaelkner: something like that17:29
ignasand the modified version for add requirement link17:29
ignasdon't forget to replace the for="" for the add directive to the interface of the container17:30
aelknerso these navigation viewlets will not appear for us as we need then not to?17:31
ignasthey will17:31
ignasthe next next step will be hiding them in your skin17:31
aelknerhow would i do that?17:32
lisppaste5ignas annotated #47213 with "Disabling a navigation viewlet" at
ignasi think like this17:34
ignasthough in your case you should add a layer="" or something like that17:34
ignaslook at the manual for usual zope 3 viewlets17:35
aelkneri'll look into it, thanks17:35
aelknerignas: by the way, in the case of requirements, a requirement is also a potential container for other requirements, so the for= would still be for IRequirement17:39
aelkneri mean in the add case of course17:39
aelkneri'll send you the diff before i commit anything17:41
aelknerignas: i noticed there is a template called in, but i don't get anything when i grep all of schooltool for it17:51
aelknercould you do the same grep to see if i'm crazy?17:51
ignasaelkner: iirc it might be used in cando17:51
ignasnot sure though17:51
ignasi have forgotten all the mess that our menus are again ...17:52
aelknerwhat does iirc mean?17:52
ignas"if i recall correctly"17:53
ignascando is using it17:55
ignasit's for menu items that are shown side by side with Navigation and Actions17:56
ignasnot inside of any of them17:56
aelknerignas: it looks like schooltool has a MenuBarViewletManager but that cando is its only customer17:58
ignasi know17:58
ignasjust that hooks for such menu items must be in schooltool source code17:59
ignas(at least it's more convenient to do it that way)17:59
aelknerbut i need to using that actionsViewlet anyway17:59
aelknerso there are three viewlet managers as far as i know18:02
aelkner1. navigationsViewletManager18:02
aelkner2. actionsViewletManager18:02
aelkner3. menuViewletManager18:02
aelknerthe first is for global menu items18:02
aelknerthe second for context related actions18:03
aelknerand the third for what paul did for cando.virginia18:03
aelknerfor our case, we should be using 2.18:03
ignas1. INavigationManager, 2. IActionMenuManager, 3. IMenuBarMenuManager18:03
aelknerthat's what i meant18:03
ignasyou wrote the name incorrectly so i thought you were talking about some different directive/template18:04
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aelknerignas: i made the change, and it worked in that the menu items still appear in the schooltool skin but not in the new cando skin18:29
aelknerignas: i'd like to svn commit them myself if you dojn't mind.  i sent the diff to your gmail account.18:34
ignasa sec18:39
aelkneri'm running make ftest now18:39
aelknermake test already passed18:39
ignasit's not touched by unit tests18:40
ignasso if anything will break it's functional tests18:40
aelkneryeah, i figured that, but i ran the unit tests just for the hell of it18:40
aelknerok, the requirements functional tests fail now not finding the link, so i'll have to look into that18:42
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aelknerignas: the functional test was looking for 'New Requirement', but I had added the menu item as 'Add Requirement', so I changed the menu item to be like before.18:54
aelknerftests pass, commiting changes...18:58
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aelknerignas_: now that i've commited the changes, how do i get them to appear in the egg?19:06
ignas_aelkner, wait for functional and unit tests to pass and egg get packaged19:09
aelknerwhen will i know that that has happened?19:10
ignas_schooltool-release will only run if all tests will pass19:11
ignas_the egg is being built19:12
aelknerlook like it's done building the egg19:15
aelknerignas_: can you give me a tip on debugging view registration?19:18
aelknernamely, i registered an add view, but it won't come up19:19
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ignas_not really, only had these problems with REST views19:39
ignas_but they are a different species19:39
ignas_i'd go debug zope http publisher19:40
ignas_but not sure if that would help19:40
aelknerok, thanks19:58
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