IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2007-05-29

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* th1a shuffles some papers around.16:30
th1aHi jfroche_, ignas, Lumiere, jelkner.16:31
th1aMy "working vacation" last week at my parents' became a bit less working and more vacation than I had planned.16:32
th1aBut it looks like this summer will be really busy, so it might be the most I get.16:32
th1aPlus I wrote a keynote for the FOSSED conference in my head, so that was kind of work.16:32
th1aHowever, I'm still a little scattered, so this is updates and whatever you feel the need to discuss.16:33
th1aPlus jinty's email about packaging mochikit and optionstorage.16:34
th1aSo... jfroche_ would you like to go first?16:34
jfroche_i am useingthe gradebook & requirements16:35
jfroche_to implements my need16:35
jfroche_i had a little conversation with pcardune16:35
jfroche_who read my analysis doc16:35
jfroche_he said that the general overview of the doc fallows the same needs as him16:36
jfroche_i just have some differences16:36
jfroche_i need to contact him this week to speak more about this16:36
th1aWhat kind of differences?16:36
jfroche_the way to handle the different kind of tests16:37
jfroche_i have exams and daily work period16:37
jfroche_what i am trying to do now is to define my vocabulary to see if it would be enough16:38
jfroche_for that i am changing the doc test of the grade book16:38
jfroche_i need to know from pcardune what are the actual difference from his needs to the trunk16:39
jfroche_but the work of srichter there seems to be quite big16:39
jfroche_of course the different view there doesn't apply to my stories, report16:39
th1aWe were making progress until...16:39
jfroche_but it seems that the basis for me are there16:40
th1aYes, the underlying model should be sound.16:40
jfroche_you worked the gradebook with stephan ?16:40
th1aHe lives in Boston so we could get together to work on it f2f.16:41
jfroche_so as reading my doc you saw that my needs aren't really different from what you did there16:41
jfroche_(except for the things i said)16:42
LumiereI know that he's at FOSSED-NE16:42
Lumierehe's going up with the CanDo group to lead their sprint16:42
th1aThat should be helpful.16:43
jfroche_pcardune will be there ?16:43
th1aI think so.16:45
th1ajfroche_: Anything else?16:45
jfroche_euh i got news from Nicolas16:45
jfroche_we will meet together at the school to push them to use the actual state of schooltool cause they need to get use to it and hopefully show them some part of the in dev gradebook16:46
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th1aOK.  Good.16:47
th1aDo you have a date?16:47
jfroche_not yet but i think around mid june (after students exams)16:47
jfroche_i ll push to get a date16:48
th1aThanks jfroche_.  Ignas?16:49
ignasnot much, added a gradebook for a student that groups everything by Course16:50
ignaswhich was the tricky part (a student can attend multiple sections in the same course), but in the gradebook - there is no difference between marks16:50
ignascould not meet with Bronius Skūpas last week as he was having Computer Science exams16:51
ignashaving as in - responsible for16:51
th1aIt is a busy time of year.16:51
ignasyes ..16:51
ignasand added some missing tests to the existing journal views16:51
ignasi'll try to meet with Bronius as soon as possible16:52
ignasand discuss more things they want me to add to the gradebook16:52
th1aIt is probably important to keep contact as school ends.16:52
ignasthey will still have of months of lessons the last grade finishes early16:53
ignasbecause of all the exams16:53
th1aOh.  OK.16:54
ignasthat's kind of everything16:54
ignasi am quite concentrated on gradebook at the moment16:54
th1aConcentration is good.  Lumiere?16:54
th1aOK, we'll move on...16:57
th1aSo jinty sent out an email about packaging dependencies.16:58
th1aThe very good news is that he seems to be making a lot of progress.16:58
th1aThe only snafus are finding reasonable versions of16:58
th1a   * zope.optionstorage16:58
th1a   * z3c.javascript.mochikit16:58
th1aAnyone have any insight into these?16:58
th1aWhat does optionstorage do?16:59
th1amochikit is Ajax stuff.16:59
ignasoptionstorage was packaged by me17:00
ignasas it was not released by Zopers17:00
ignasbut they said they would accept my package17:00
ignasso i or someone else just has to package it properly and upload it to PyPI17:00
Lumierehis problem is that there doesn't seem to be a good release number17:00
Lumiereor it seemed to be17:01
ignasgiving it the same number as the rest of Zope3.4 eggs would make sense17:01
th1aWhere do z3c packages come from?  Zope Corp?17:02
ignaszope 3 comunity17:03
ignaszc are zope corp ones17:03
jfroche_but these where done by pcardune on no ?17:05
ignasand mochikit packages were created by pcardune weren't they17:05
th1aI was wondering exactly the same thing.17:05
th1aI think so.17:05
th1aI'll reply to jinty's email and ask pcardune.17:05
th1aOK... any last words?17:06
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:07
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th1aHave a good week, folks!17:08
Lumiereback in a bit then ;)17:10
Lumierejust so everyone knows17:10
LumiereCanDo's dev meeting is in 2 hours17:10
Lumiere(well 1 hour 50 minutes)17:10
Lumiereand it'll be here17:10
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jelknerLumiere: I've been trying to reach dave on x5735 all morning, but no luck17:51
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Lumierejelkner: try now18:33
* Lumiere starts up the generator18:33
Lumiere30 minutes to CanDo dev meeting18:33
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LumiereCanDo Developer Meeting - Tuesday 29 May 200719:00
LumiereUser Stories - Updates and Confirmations19:00
LumiereBounties - Launchpad?/Procedure19:00
jelknerok, it is 12 by my clock19:00
jelknerwhere is pcardune?19:00
jelknershould i call him?19:00
jelkneri got his answering machine19:02
Lumierek sec19:03
jelknerleft a mean sounding message :-(19:03
jelknerwe *need* to get it together19:03
jelknertwo weeks in a row that we don't have everyone together19:03
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jelkneri got him19:05
jelknerhe is logging on now19:05
Lumieredwelsh is too19:05
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jelknerstill waiting for pcardune...19:08
dwelshhe's joining19:08
dwelshjust got him on his cell19:08
jelknerdwelsh: can you lead the first part of this discussion?19:09
jelknersince the most important topic is: how can we make dwelsh happy?19:09
jelknerand know one knows better than you! ;-)19:10
dwelshright.  always a top-priority topic19:10
dwelshask not what your country can do for you...19:10
dwelshask how you can make dwelsh happy!19:10
dwelshGetting roles and tasks better defined will help us19:11
Lumierelets wait a sec19:11
Lumiereand get pcardune in here19:11
Lumierebefore we get this party really moving please19:11
jelknerpcardune is having trouble with connectivity19:11
Lumierethis first conversation19:11
jelkneri am on the phone with him19:11
jelknerand will act as his proxy19:11
jelknerlet's begin19:11
Lumierethen for those of you who were late...19:11
LumiereUser Stories - Updates and Confirmations19:12
aelknerdo we have a url with the user stories?19:12
Lumieredwelsh put it in a google doc, he's going to move it over today19:12
dwelshThere is an overview doc on Google docs19:12
Lumiereto the trac wiki19:12
dwelshyes, but we're moving it to the wiki19:13
Lumiereaelkner: that a good start?19:14
dwelshyes, it's a very good start19:14
jelknerso what do you have for pcardune?19:14
dwelshI'm publishing it publicly now19:14
aelknerI was just curious to see everything.  I'm currently working on one that Paul gave me, but I wanted to see the bigger picture.19:14
* Lumiere will speak for dwelsh for a sec he can correct if he needs19:15
LumiereWe have a list of user stories *see link above*19:15
dwelshThat's the bigger picture.19:15
jelknerso, what do you have for pcardune?19:15
dwelshThe UserStories (blueprints) are basically in prioritized order19:15
dwelshI need to know from developers if you need more specificity from me19:16
dwelshThen I'll work with Jason to create more specific user stories on our wiki19:16
dwelshmuch as we did with resource management19:16
dwelshMy main concern:  I want to see the code move along19:16
dwelshThe bugs related to journaling were out and well defined for May sprint19:17
dwelshbut nothing got fixed/posted19:17
dwelshwhy not?19:17
Lumierejelkner: that's for pcardune19:17
jelknerpcardune says "because everyone was screwing around with the older version..."19:17
jelkner"I don't know why that happened"19:18
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pcardunehi everybody19:18
Lumierethat's partially my issue, but it had positives19:18
Lumierebecause we found out that the 2006 branch needs to be fixed for it's next release19:19
Lumiereright now bugs are still on 200619:19
pcarduneI think the lesson we learned from the last sprint is that everyone needs to have a working environment prior to starting the sprint19:19
pcardunethis is one way that having installed nx is going to help a lot19:19
Lumiereremote x19:20
pcarduneif people don't have things set up on their local machines correctly, they can just jump on maddog19:20
Lumierelike vnc19:20
LumiereI will be right back... I have a pair of computers down here19:22
jelknerlet's move this along19:22
jelknerdwelsh: you should take the lead on this19:23
jelknerwhat do you want to happen now?19:23
dwelshDo we have the infrastructure in place to support the project?19:23
dwelshIs there anything else we need to do?19:23
dwelshWhy was it not in place in May?19:23
pcardunehere was the problem in may19:23
jelkneri'm still confused about the 06 vs. 07 issue19:23
pcardunesomeone wanted to have bugs fixed for 0619:23
dwelshwelsh wants journaling bugs fixed in 0619:24
jelknerbad move to do that with interns19:24
pcarduneso everyone thought they had to then install 06 to fix the bugs19:24
jelkneryes, but not by interns at a sprint19:24
jelknerthis is what we talked about this morning19:24
pcardunethe problem with this was that third party egg dependencies broke the 06 package19:24
dwelshdon't you guys have 06 up somewhere?19:24
jelknerwe need a clear procedure that avoids confusion19:25
dwelshShouldn't it run off of a server?19:25
dwelshnot locally?19:25
pcardunedwelsh yes, but you can't have multiple people fixing bugs using the same code base19:25
jelknerat least 1 week *before* june 1619:25
dwelshOK, I get that19:25
jelknerwe need a list of goals for the sprint19:25
jelknerso we can discuss them, make plans and adjustments, and be ready for the interns19:25
dwelshWe also need to more clearly define roles and responsibilities19:25
jelknerwe spent all morning sitting around not doing anything19:26
jelkneri sent out an email with a proposal19:26
dwelshI look at pcardune and eldar to have an overview of all bugs and blueprints19:26
dwelshI expect them also to have a sense of who can do what19:26
jelknerdwelsh: it is important that you assume the role of top dog in all this19:26
pcardunewhen I came to the sprint around 8am my time I was asked to solve this problem with installing 06 without really knowing why people were using 06 at all.  I should have asked first19:26
dwelshI then expect them to assign the right problems to the right people19:26
dwelshAm I missing something?19:26
pcardunedwelsh no, that is how it should work19:27
dwelshI guess Jeff is right... interns should ONLY work on 0719:27
LumiereI think having the pre-sprint meeting is good, we should know what people will be assigned/working on before we start19:27
jelkneri would say there was a break down in communication between dwelsh and pcardune prior to the sprint19:27
dwelshit's a waste of time getting them up on the last version19:27
pcarduneyou'll notice that when I got there, within 30 minutes everyone was working on something19:27
dwelshit's enough for them to tackle the new stuff19:27
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LumiereI disagree to some point...19:28
jelknerpcardune: yes, but we start several hours before you get there19:28
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pcardunejelkner right, hence the need for pre-sprint meetings19:28
Lumierethe priorities are the priorities... there needs to be a point where a 2006 bug19:28
Lumiereis more important then anything at all in 200719:28
jelknerLumiere: *not* at a sprint!19:28
Lumierewe have users... that we are serving19:28
jelkneryou miss the point of what the sprints are for19:29
jelknerwith unrealistic plans, we fail19:29
jelknerpcardune and eldar should be given the 06 bugs19:29
jelknernot new people who are are struggling to learn19:29
dwelshjelkner:  how do you want 06 bugs handled?19:29
jelknereldar and pcardune19:30
jelknerwhen aelkner thinks he is ready, they can pawn stuff off on him19:30
dwelshok.  those bugs were up and defined.19:30
jelkneruntil then, the most critical things need to be theirs19:30
dwelshdo I need to do something to get them up and working on them?19:30
jelknerregular communication with pcardune19:31
jelkneryou two used to have weekly meetings of your own19:31
jelkneryou probably should do that19:31
pcardunehave us not spend all our time managing/helping interns19:31
dwelshso that's an easy fix.19:31
Lumierethat's why I am here19:31
Lumieremy job should be a lot of the managing of interns19:31
dwelshCanDo is my top priority from now until August 2019:31
pcarduneLumiere but you can't help them, and do not know what stuff they can work on19:31
dwelshI'm here to meet, clarify, talk, etc.19:31
jelknercan i take a minute to address pcardune's last comment?19:32
dwelshgo ahead19:32
Lumierepcardune: but If we meet 1 time a week, and figure out who can do what19:32
jelknerwe have know since the beginning that we have a delicate trade off we are attempting to balance19:32
Lumiereand I have that info19:32
LumiereI can give things out off lists19:32
jelknerwe need to expand the developer group19:32
jelknerand we need pcardune and eldar to help with that19:33
jelknerand we also need to leave them time to work19:33
jelkneri think the best strategy is this:19:33
jelkner1. identify the new developers most likely to be able to contribute soon19:33
jelkner2. focus our energy on getting them productive19:34
jelkner3. allow me and wdickerso to work with the other interns on less critical projects19:35
jelknerthat is how i would strike the balance19:35
jelknerso who are the folks most likely to be able to contribute soon?19:36
jelkner1. andrew rodriguez19:36
jelkner2. filip19:36
jelkner3. alan19:36
aelknerMyself, I would prefer to contribute by handling project work and not mentoring students as I did last time, at least in the beginning.19:36
jelkner4. mitchell?19:36
pcardunenot mitchell19:36
pcarduneI would say those 3 are at the top of the list for serious contributions19:37
pcarduneand that is it19:37
jelknerok, are all 3 of them working?19:37
pcardunethose are the three that I get emails from with questions on a regular basis19:37
jelknerthen who is next?19:38
pcardunethe SEPG folks19:38
jelknerit can be my job to push the next tier of folks to be more responsive19:38
jelknerthey are doing great, but they have their project already19:38
pcardunethey actually could be put in the top three19:39
jelkneryes, except they won't be working on other stuff for the present19:39
pcarduneso the next group is just everyone else19:39
jelkner"everyone else" is not concrete enough19:39
jelknerwe need to talk about who is at the top of "everyone else"19:39
jelknerso i can focus my effort on getting them more involved immediately19:40
pcarduneve got him working on stuff as well19:40
aelknerby the way, how should the three of us work, namely, paired with other people or with each other?19:40
pcardunebut haven't heard much from him19:40
jelkneri'll follow up with him then19:41
pcarduneaelkner, however it is that you are working right now (because that way seems to be working)19:41
aelknerI was refering to the sprints.19:41
pcardunethe same way at the sprints19:42
pcarduneit takes too much time for people to get up to speed on what other people are doing19:42
jelkneraelkner: you played a really good role at the last sprint19:42
aelkneryeh, but I didn;'t get any work done of my own.19:43
jelknerit is important to use sprint time to help the newer developers19:43
aelknerbut i'm one of them :)19:43
pcardunesee, this is exactly the problem, are sprints for new developers? or for actually getting work done?19:43
jelknertrue, but you told me yourself you learned a lot from helping other folks19:43
pcardunebecause those things can not be combined19:43
aelknerpaul's right.19:44
jelknerthe monthly sprints have been for training19:44
jelknerif you want to change that, we should tell the new folks not to come19:44
pcarduneok, good... then I don't have to feel bad about not fixing the 06 bugs during the sprint19:44
aelknerit's a good idea to nail down the role of the sprints.19:44
jelknernot at all19:44
jelknerfixing 06 bugs during the sprint was a bad idea19:44
dwelshand having interns fix them definitely was not the right idea19:45
LumiereI completely disagree... the bugs came up just before the sprint19:45
dwelshso we need to GO IN with a better plan19:45
Lumiereand they were the highest priority of the day19:45
jelknerLumiere: bad idea19:45
pcardunebut sprints are not supposed to be like average work days19:45
pcardunethat is why we call them sprints19:45
jelknerand the fact that it didn't work demonstrates that19:45
Lumierejelkner: it's a bad idea for them to get pushed off19:45
dwelshyes, jelkner is right19:46
dwelshPaul, Straw and Welsh should have connected before that sprint19:46
jelkneragain, we are balancing two needs19:46
dwelshOne problem with those sprints is that paul is not around when they start19:46
jelknerto grow our development team and to get work done19:46
Lumierejelkner: you're pushing the balance too far to 0719:46
dwelshso we are proxying for him19:46
dwelshwe have to all have the same plan19:46
jelknerno, i am handling my main responsibilty: growing the new developers19:46
jelkneryou should be working with pcardune and eldar to get 06 stuff fixed19:47
jelknernot trying to take newbies and ask them to do it19:47
jelknerit won't work19:47
aelknerbut not during the sprint...19:47
Lumierethat doesn't mean it shouldn't happen on a sprint day19:47
Lumierejust that it shouldn't have been done with interns19:47
LumiereI'll live with that19:47
jelkneryes it does19:47
aelknerI'd say don't do it at all during the sprint.19:47
jelkneri agree19:48
pcardunebut who is going to do it on a sprint day?19:48
aelknerPaul and Eldar's attention should be available for the interns.19:48
dwelshwhat is paul supposed to be doing on the sprint day?19:48
Lumierepcardune is pretty good19:48
dwelshand Eldar too, for that matter19:48
Lumiereat juggling some code19:48
jelknerit should not be done on the sprint day19:48
Lumierewith helping people19:48
aelknerMore of what I was doing...19:48
pcardunehelping interns19:48
jelknerwe shouldn't really even call these things sprints19:48
jelknerthat may be part of the problem19:48
pcardunebut i do much better overall if I focus one thing at a time19:48
dwelshgotcha.  so paul should probably NOT be working 06 bugs during the sprint day19:48
jelknersince december they have been about training19:48
jelknernot developing19:49
jelknerwe can't do both19:49
aelknerdwelsh: I'd say so.19:49
jelknerand training has been the focus19:49
jelknerotherwise, we need to tell the interns to stay home19:49
jelknerwhich doesn't make sense19:49
jelknerwe either are prepared to help them, or they shouldn't come19:49
aelknerdeveloping now is an extension of training if Paul and Eldar are available.19:49
jelknerif we choose topics carefully19:50
jelknernot critical things but things that interns can work on19:50
Lumierejelkner: you specificallly need to be more careful about naming things19:50
jelknerthen development work can happen at oour "sprints"19:50
Lumierestop calling them sprints if they're not19:50
jelknerbut nothing critical should happen there19:50
Lumierethey're trainings19:50
aelknerthere's nothing wrong with calling them sprints.19:51
jelknerand certainly not things that are difficult to do19:51
aelknerThey just need to be focused19:51
aelknerAnd it looks like they are coming into focus.19:51
aelknerNo 06 bugs19:51
dwelshthere's very little 06 left19:51
pcarduneit is easier to focus when everyone hass the conception that we are doing training19:51
aelknerLots of Paul and Eldar time for new projects that are handled by the interns.19:51
pcardunecalling is a training day makes that easy for everyone to remember19:52
jelknerand aelkner's too19:52
jelknerfine with me19:52
dwelshwill the monthly training days run over the summer?19:52
jelknerwe should choose projects and make work assignment *before* the training day19:53
aelknerI would recommend that.19:53
dwelshor is it all about Tues and Thurs pm19:53
dwelshOK then.  one training day a month19:53
jelknerhold on19:53
jelknerlet me think about that19:53
jelkneractually, every tuesday and thursday from 1 to 6 is training19:53
aelknerThere's plenty of time for Paul and Eldar (and eventually me) to handle 06 bugs outside of the trainging days.19:53
aelknerSo all meetings involving students should be considered training days.19:54
jelknerit would actually be better if we leave the interns out of saturdays during the summer19:54
LumiereI am very much against every 'work' day being training time19:54
jelknerthen we could have a july sprint, and make it a real sprint19:54
jelknerLumiere: then you don't understand what we are doing19:55
Lumierejelkner: both dwelsh and I have wildly different views19:55
jelkneran internship is all about training19:55
dwelshwelsh doesn't understand either, then19:55
jelknerit can't be any other way19:55
Lumiereof what the monthly saturdays and work days are for19:55
dwelsharen't Tues and Thurs supposed to be time for productive developers?19:55
Lumierewe expect shit to get done on these days19:55
aelknerPaul and Eldar don't nbeed students to handle 06 bugs, so why address them when the students are around?19:55
Lumierenot to hand hold19:55
jelknerin the 3 years we have been doing this, we have *never* got productive work from our interns19:55
jelknerzope 3 is hard to learn19:56
jelknerwe are investing in them19:56
dwelshisn't that supposed to change with our new training approach?19:56
jelknerthis year is the best year ever19:56
aelknerright, for the future.19:56
jelknerwe may actually get something usable from them19:56
jelknerbut not without help19:56
Lumiereok it's been an hour19:56
jelknerso training and working are the same thing19:56
Lumierewe still have something left on the agenda19:56
LumiereI hate to cut this off... but continue it on the cando-dev list19:56
jelknertuesdays and thursdays eldar and paul need to be available to help interns with their work19:57
dwelshtraining and working should not be the same thing19:57
jelkner*that* is how we train them19:57
dwelshskill-driver vs. project19:57
LumiereBounties - Launchpad?/Procedure... pcardune and jelkner19:57
dwelshskill-driver is training; project is paid work19:57
dwelshfoundational vs. primary research19:57
dwelshjust like TJ does it19:57
pcarduneeldar said he was looking into putting bounties on launchpad19:58
aelknerMay I recommend a meeting the day before the sprint in addition to the regular Tuesday meeting?  I think if we have one the day before we will have a fresh picture come Sat. of what we want to do.19:59
Lumierewe already are planning to do that19:59
Lumierebut the meeting is just going to be paul, me, welsh, eldar19:59
aelknerI might as well be there since I'm helping th interns, too.19:59
pcarduneso are we done here? any other discussion can take place on cando-dev?20:00
LumiereBounties - Launchpad?/Procedure20:00
pcardunelike I said, eldar is looking into bounties on LP20:00
Lumierethis is a jelkner dwelsh shindig for you to talk throgh20:01
LumiereI need to get them off the phone first20:01
pcarduneI believe there was already an email about that procedure20:01
pcarduneit being:20:02
Lumierebut part of it is20:02
Lumierethe technology it gets stored in20:02
pcardune1. dwelsh chooses user stories20:02
pcarduneI give user stories bounties20:02
jelknerpcardune: can you send dwelsh and i a summary of what aelkner, andrew, and filip are doing?20:02
Lumierein the future20:03
aelknerjelkner: please use "me" an not "i" for the accusative :)20:03
Lumierethese should be put into the dev meeting20:03
pcarduneand once eldar figures out how to do this on LP, we will do it on LP20:04
Lumierepcardune: we had a chat on bounties because we have a feeling it doesn't match what jelkner wants20:04
aelknerwhat's that?20:05
Lumierethat LP's bounty system20:05
aelkneri see.20:05
Lumieredoesn't match what jelkner thought the bounty system should be for CanDo20:05
LumiereI'm gonna drop the gravel and end this...20:07
Lumierewe'll get back to people if we have other things to talk about20:07
aelknerIt looks like people have left already, so consider it dropped...20:08
* Lumiere shuts down the generator20:08
th1aHm.  I had convinced myself that this meeting started at 1:00.20:09
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Lumiereth1a: check the topic lately? :)20:29
th1aLumiere: I did.  At 1:00.20:30
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