IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-09-26

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mgedminignas: "Why calendars are hard":
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* th1a shuffles some papers around.16:28
th1aignas: ayt?16:30
th1ahoi ignas?16:33
th1aAh, good.16:36
jfrochehello ignas16:37
th1aSo nothing has been finalized, but it is looking like jfroche will be working with us.16:37
th1aIt is looking likely.16:37
ignaswelcome :)16:37
jfrocheright, need to fix up a few things and would really enjoy to work with you on this16:38
jfrochesince when are you working on schooltool ?16:38
th1aHave you two met before?16:38
ignasjfroche: 2005, February 0116:39
jfrochemight be if you were at europython or plone conf16:39
ignas2004 Feburary i mean16:40
ignasi was in europython 2004 and 200516:40
jfrocheuhm then not16:41
jfrochewhat do you think to be the best start point ?16:41
th1aStart point for?16:41
jfrocheworking with you16:42
th1aYou mean code or getting to know each other?16:42
ignasjfroche: how much experience with Zope3 do you have ?16:42
jfrochealways learning, i come from z216:43
jfrochei developped a connector for flash with zope 3 to get in touch with it16:43
th1ajfroche wrote a nice introduction to Zope3 for Plone programmers.16:43
jfrocheyes i was introduce to zope before plone16:43
jfrochethen dive into plone16:43
ignasif you know Zope3 CA pretty well (you know what are adapters, viewlets, content providers, subscribers)16:44
ignasthen you should look at security policy first as it is the part that differs from standard Zope3 working a lot16:45
ignasif not, then i'd go for levels, attendance, some calendaring to understand how new modules are hooked up into schooltool16:45
ignasas they are pretty fresh, unit tests/functional tests are written in a better manner than they were in the old days16:46
jfrochell begin with the security policy16:46
ignaslet's say calendaring views are not the best example when it comes to proper unit tests or plugability16:47
th1aAlso, I still recommend the "commendation" package, which was written as an example for developers.16:47
th1aYes, timetabling and calendaring is just inherently hairy.16:47
jfrocheok good to know16:48
th1aAnd the demographics stuff is stylistically different because mfaassen did that his own way.16:49
th1aWhich I probably shouldn't have let him do...16:49
jfrochehappy to see that testing is important for you16:49
th1aTesting is, if anything, too important.16:49
th1aIf you guys want to stop testing sample code generation, I'd happily endorse that.16:49
th1aSample data generation, I mean.16:50
ignasth1a: well testing has paid of when srichter was doing the refactoring, when we did new security policy, and is paying of with the new navigation stuff, as i am sure that the new navigation branch still allows users to perform everything that they could do with the old navigation ...16:51
th1aI'm not anti-testing.16:52
th1aOK, I am anti-sample data testing.16:52
th1aBut that's a particular case where it introduces lots of dependencies for little benefit.16:53
th1aBut anyhow...16:53
th1aSo what's the news from Vilnius?16:54
th1aAny word from the Lyceum?16:54
ignasat the moment i am waiting for them to provide their timetable data16:54
ignasprincipal of the school is pretty busy as it is the start of the year16:54
ignasso not much news really16:54
th1aWhat's the status of the discussion?  Why do you need the timetable data?16:55
ignaswith timetables + list of students i can try to set up a working instance16:55
ignasto see what more data do i need16:56
ignassome things are very flaky on their end at the moment16:56
ignascourses/sections are not stabilized yet etc.16:56
th1aAre you setting up this instance to sell them on the project?16:56
ignasso that teacher would have something to put his hands on and try16:57
ignasas well as to see whehther schooltool can handle their usecase out of the box16:57
ignasas their courses/sections might not (from what i have heard) exxactly match schooltool's model16:58
th1aBut we haven't gotten a definite thumbs-up on the project yet from them, right?16:58
ignasnot on paper16:59
th1aI'm just not sure where we are.16:59
ignasi see, i'll call them and try to get it official, just that i don't know what do we need for that17:01
ignasconfirmation from Mark? confirmation from you?17:01
th1aI'm just waiting for the word from you to include it in my proposal to Mark.17:01
th1aI'm sure he's not going to reject the school.17:02
th1aCan they give you a place to work in the school?17:02
ignasprobably, i was not sure whether we need that, as the school is very close to the place where i live (15-20 minutes)17:03
ignas30 minutes from PoV office17:03
th1aPractically, I do think it is important.17:04
th1aNeed to get you in the school.17:04
th1aFeel their pain.17:04
th1aWill they want us to do the hosting?17:05
th1ajfroche:  Can you discuss your relationship to Denis and Nicolas and their schools?17:05
jfrocheth1a: have you got precise information about the schools in belgium ?17:05
th1aI visited La Futaie.17:06
th1aThey've got a crazy report card, which is an excellent case.17:06
ignasi was thinking that things like that will be negotiated when the fact about cooperation with the school will be official, now i understand that i was wrong17:06
th1aignas:  I was thinking the cooperation would be official after you discussed those things ;-)17:07
jfrocheok i think that Denis and Nic. are waiting for Mark and my approval17:07
th1aDenis and Nic should be waiting to see if I can hire you, jfroche.17:07
th1aWell, more or less...17:07
th1aWe already have some relationship with La Futaie, so I'm not so worried about them.17:08
jfrochebut you need to be sure that these school are ready to accept me17:08
th1aAnd it sounds like Denis should be able to make this happen.17:08
th1ajfroche:  So Denis was your teacher?17:08
jfrochenever, i worked with him during summer holiday on zope17:09
jfrocheat his previous company17:09
th1aOh... well I misunderstood that completely!17:09
jfrochenow he became teacher17:09
th1aWhich company was that?17:10
jfrocheheard about it ?17:10
jfrocheyou better speak with him about this17:10
th1aHaven't heard of it.17:10
th1aSo jfroche will be working with two schools in Brussels.  A high school and an elementary school.17:11
th1ajfroche:  Do you know much about Denis's school?17:13
jfrocheexcept that it's one of the best school around Charleroi no17:14
th1aDo they have a website?17:14
jfrocheif you want me to contact o17:16
jfrochether schools tell me too17:16
th1ajfroche:  No, I think these two should be fine.  A strong prior connection in the school is valuable.17:17
th1aGoing forward, how well jfroche and ignas work together and communicate will be important.17:18
th1aThis is something that has consistently been more difficult than I anticipate it will be.17:18
jfrocheat least we are nearly on the same timezone17:19
th1aI think having Ignas focusing consistently on SchoolTool will help.17:19
jfrocheignas: will you continue to work for pov ?17:20
th1aBecause POV's response collectively would vary depending on whether or not they were actually working on SchoolTool at the time.17:20
ignaskind of17:21
th1aAnother thing that will be different is that you two will be doing your own planning in terms of what features will be implemented when.17:22
th1aSo the three of us will need to coordinate that so we won't be stepping on each other's toes.17:22
ignasth1a: can you email me the list of questions you want to have answers for so i would not skip anything important17:24
th1a1) Do they have a space for you to work?17:24
th1a2)  Do you have to tie into any other systems?17:25
th1a3)  Would they intend to use all the components (calendaring, demo, attendance, grading) in production (do they have some other system they're mandated to use)?17:26
th1a4) Are there any laws covering how student data is handled?17:26
th1aThat's pretty much it.17:27
th1aSo I'm going to send an email to Mark today looking for a thumbs up on jfroche, and if I get that, then I'll be making up the budget for the full year.17:28
ignas3) they want to do a gradual approach, starting from calendaring, then going for gradebook/attendance (they need some changes for both of these to work)17:28
th1aHow frequently do you think you two should meet face to face (without me).17:28
ignasit will depend17:28
ignasif it happens so that we will work on the same part at the same time - we'll need to comunicate constantly17:29
jfrochedepends if we are working on the same module at the same time17:29
ignasif not, then weekly meeting will be enough17:29
ignasmaybe with some questions both ways when something is not clear enough from the technical perspective17:29
ignasi'll try to do at least some code reviews17:30
ignasthough i am not as skilled as mgedmin in that17:30
th1amgedmin is the master of code nitpicking ;-)17:30
jfrocheignas: is it so that you are online everyday ?17:31
jfrochein this channel ?17:31
jfrocheare you on skype ?17:31
ignasno, just google talk, ICQ, jabber, MSN17:31
th1aHaving some kind of voice chat would be good.17:32
jfrochegoogle talk17:32
jfrochell try that one17:32
ignasgoogle talk for chat mostly17:32
th1aThat isn't voice chat though, is it?17:32
jfrocheindeed no17:33
jfrochethought so17:33
ignasi don't have suitable environment most of the time17:33
jfrocheah ok17:33
th1aOK, time to wrap up, formally.17:34
ignasbut we can dedicate time for that17:34
th1aYes, specific times for voice chat is a good idea, I think.17:34
jfrocheagree on this, its sometimes quicker to speak directly17:35
ignasi mean i can go to a small dedicated silent room17:35
jfroche(eventhought my spoken english isn't the best one)17:35
th1aEnter the cone of silence.17:35
mgedminin soviet russia, code picks you!17:36
ignasjfroche: i am always having problems with my written English sounding offensive17:36
ignassomething with the structure of my sentences :/17:36
jfrocheok we will improve both of us17:37
mgedminignas: have you tried using fewer swear words?17:38
th1aI'm usually the only one who swears around here.17:39
th1aIt is called "setting the tone."17:39
th1aI'm going to go take a shower.17:40
* th1a bangs the bag of gravel.17:40
ignasas for time online - 13:00 'Europe/Vilnius' is the time POV start working17:42
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