IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2006-08-31

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povbot/svn/commits: * vidas committed revision 6409:08:23
povbot/svn/commits: Changed absolute urls into relative ones.08:23
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povbot/svn/commits: * vidas committed revision 6410:12:48
povbot/svn/commits: UI redesign: added new mode selection style, some fixes.12:49
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ignasth1a_: ayt?16:36
jintyignas: you pinged me a while back?16:42
ignaswhen ?16:42
ignasyesterday ?16:42
jintyday before, I think16:43
jintybtw, thanks for fixing things before you went away16:43
ignaswhat things ?16:43
jintymade making the alpha3 and packages much easier:)16:44
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ignasth1a: hi19:45
ignasth1a: and log in as a manager19:46
ignas(vidas was presuaded to give our friendly red colour back, but had no time to do that today)19:46
th1aignas:  Looking now...19:51
th1aYes, we need the red back.19:53
th1aAlso, while I appreciate the idea of having the buttons and tabs in the same row, in practice, they won't both fit.19:53
th1aI mean, once there are more tabs and tabs that need more buttons (like adminstration, for example).19:54
ignastabs with more buttons ?19:54
th1aFor example, calendar only needs three,19:55
th1abut for administering schooltool, you'll probably have a button for "timetables" a button for "terms" a button for "students" etc.19:56
ignaserr that was not in the requirements :/19:57
ignasit was19:57
ignastabs not buttons19:57
ignasbuttons are "monthly" "weekly"19:57
th1aignas:  We should have brought you to the sprint.19:58
ignashow often one has to access terms and timetables ?19:58
ignasi don't think that looking at terms is an everyday activity19:59
th1aSo there will, in the future, be other tabs, like "manage"19:59
th1aWhich will only be visible to a manager,19:59
th1aand they'll click on that when they need to do site management things.19:59
ignasmaybe we could postpone the solution of too many tabs to fit to the time when we will have too many tabs19:59
th1aAnd they'll select which management task they're doing by clicking on a button.19:59
th1aWell... we can postpone worrying about too many tabs,20:00
ignasi don't want tabs to become another navigation menu with 10+n items20:00
th1abut if the tabs and buttons are on the same row, that just doesn't work.20:00
th1a"Manage" is just going to be a bit ugly however we do it.20:01
th1aBut a "manage" tab with say, 8 buttons is not that bad.20:01
ignasso why won't tabs and  buttons on the same row work out ?20:02
th1aI just think it takes too much space horizontally.20:02
th1aEspecially if you allow temporary tabs.20:02
th1aAnd if you add tabs for CanDo.20:02
ignasi just though that temporary tabs should not go near the normal tabs20:03
ignasas that would add a lot of confusion20:03
th1aThat might be a good point.20:03
ignasthey are a totaly different thing20:03
th1aI don't think they are totally different.  Where would you put them?20:04
ignasdepends on what they will do20:04
ignasi still don't really know that for real20:05
ignasi'd like them to switch the context of the navigation20:05
ignasbe like a stack of "important" objects20:05
ignasso you add 2 persons to your temp list20:06
ignasand select attendance+weekly tab/button20:06
ignasand switching between persons switches you between their weekly attendance20:06
ignasand you have 1 more temp tab in there that returns you to your "default" context (your own attendance+weekly)20:07
ignasreimplementing a full browser just because text browsers can't open new windows/tabs would be difficult20:08
th1aI do think that having a little stack of "important/current" objects is a good idea.20:09
th1aInfrae uses that in some of their products, I think.20:09
ignasthe question is whether we are preserving the state when one switches to another object or not ...20:11
ignasi mean if you were looking at the "+attendance/2005-01-01/weekly" and click on a person in your stack20:11
ignaswhere do you go ?20:11
ignastechnically it is possible to have different "state" for every "context" in the stack20:12
th1aOK... here's the thing...20:13
th1aWe don't want to play that game.20:13
th1aWe don't want the user navigating a matrix.20:13
th1aAlthough it is an interesting idea.20:13
ignasyes that is the problem of my approach20:14
ignasit makes the navigation a 4D thingie20:14
th1aWhich is a really clever way of thinking about it, but I don't think it is practical.20:14
ignasas for schools (so i would not forget) i was advised by gintas to postpone the visit to some school in lithuania for at least a couple of weeks as 09-01 is the day a schoolyear starts so all schools will be very very busy20:15
ignasyes it would work out for me but not for someone who hasn't used the system20:15
ignastemp tabs would become an "advanced user" productivity feature20:15
ignasnot useful for common folk20:15
th1aSo when we went through the use cases at the Sprint, it seemed like having tabs for the big application modules worked,20:16
th1abut a common use case is that you're looking at your gradebook, say, at a kid and you want to know his phone number, say, and you want to get it by clicking on the name.20:16
ignasi don't know, i think that they will be used so rarely that it would not hurt clicking on dashboard and selecting a module from there20:16
ignasYMMV though20:16
th1aThat to me is the temporary tab use case.20:17
ignasisn't it easier to click on a person, then click on "show personal info" and then click "back" button twice ?20:18
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ignashow do you imagine a TTab would work in that usecase ?20:18
th1aI click on the student's name, and the next page view is info about the student in a temporary tab.20:19
ignaswhy a tab ?20:19
ignasyou click on a student and you see his info20:19
th1aThen I click the "X" to dismiss the temporary tab and go back to the gradebook, or I just click on the gradebook tab to go back to the gradebook and leave the temporary tab there.20:19
th1aWell... which tab am I under when I'm looking at the student's info?20:20
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ignasso every object would have it's own TTab view20:20
th1aI'd argue that this is something particular to persons,20:20
th1aalthough Paul wanted to use them much more freely in CanDo.20:20
ignasi can't really reason about the usage without usecases like the one you have described20:21
ignasas it is implementable and not in a such difficult way, but i am not sure how it would scale to different usecases20:21
th1aWell... the think is we worked thought all these use cases in detail at the sprint...20:21
th1aSo perhaps you should just take my word for it.20:22
ignasyou see implementation depends on usecases very much ...20:22
ignasi can do it so it would work for schooltool, if it won't be good enough for pcardune ...20:23
th1aThe current goal is to solidify the design we came up with at the sprint.20:24
ignasyou mean - user interface design ?20:24
th1aI mean, to get the code underlying the ui design solidified,20:25
th1anot so much changing the ui design.20:25
ignasfrom my viewpoint it is easier to change the code than change the way UI works ...20:26
th1aWell, I'm hoping it is fairly easy.20:27
ignaswhat is ? code or UI?20:28
ignassorry i am slow today ... got too many things bubbling in my head ...20:28
ignaswhat is easy?20:28
th1aCleaning up the code.20:28
ignasnot cleaning up, rewriting it so it would suit more usecases that will come up for cando20:29
ignasi am going for the "looks like screenshots i saw, works the way albertas, you and pcardune described it"20:30
ignasinstead of sticking to some plan for the underlying architecture20:30
ignasnow i am not sure if it's what you wanted though20:32
th1aI think we're on the same page.20:33
th1aI'm ok with, say, changing the implementation to use URLs instead of session varibles.20:33
th1aWhat started this conversation, though, was vidas's skin with the tabs and buttons in the same row, which is a change in the UI that doesn't work for other use cases.20:35
ignasthat's fixable20:35
th1aI know.20:35
ignasit's just one of the ways to do it20:35
th1aAll I'm saying is, don't spend time rearranging the UI elements.20:35
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th1aThey're where we want them.20:35
ignasthe problem is that i have to put the date and the date widget somewhere in there too ...20:36
ignasso there were some more ideas :)20:36
ignasi am working on the calendaring at that time though20:36
ignasand vidas is doing some mockups20:36
ignasas well as adding the date widget20:37
th1aOK... basically, you've got the whole main well of the page at your disposal, plus the sidebar.20:37
ignaswell, i kind of need the date to be seen not just in the calendar but in some more pages too ...20:37
ignaswhat i mean is that the date actually is a part of the navigation20:37
ignaslike "weekly" "monthly" buttons20:37
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th1aWell... I see your point, but the buttons in that bar can only do so much.20:39
ignasyes i know, they will get moved to the row under tabs20:40
th1aIn fact, the thing I like about Vidas's mockup with two rows of tabs is that it keeps clear that only one thing in the button row can be selected.20:40
th1aThat's fine.20:40
ignasjust that having them up there makes it look better ;) (while i understand that it won't work out that well)20:41
ignasas for tabs vs buttons, i think tabs will probably be nicer20:42
ignaseven though it's a second row20:42
ignasit just isn't that evil in this case ...20:43
th1aYes, it doesn't look too bad.20:45
th1aOK, I'm going in to school now, and I haven't figured out how to tunnel IRC through their firewall yet, so I'll talk to you later, ignas.20:50
ignasi'll go home soon anyway20:51
ignasso see you tomorow i guess20:51
ignasit's late in here ...20:51
th1aYes, I'm stuck in nocturnal mode, too...20:52
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