IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-06-27

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* th1a shuffles some papers around...16:28
th1ahi guys.16:30
th1ajinty?  srichter?16:30
th1aDo people in Vilnius root for Ukraine?16:31
algaroot as in "become settled or established and stable in one's residence"?16:32
th1aRoot as in hope they win?16:33
ignaswin what ?16:33
th1aThe World Cup?16:33
ignaswhat cup ?16:33
mgedminis that a drinking competition?16:33
algath1a: you should have noticed, we're not much into sports :-)16:33
algapale programmer types16:33
th1aWell, yes, but here in the US we're given the impression that every single person outside the US is into the World Cup.16:34
th1aAlso, spending time at my parents involves watching LOTS of sports on TV.16:34
th1aAnyhow, down to business.16:35
th1aignas:  How does the initial password setting work?16:35
ignascan't tell exactly, vidas did that, will look at his checkins now16:36
ignaspass --restore-manager password16:37
ignasor "-r -"16:37
ignasand type in the password then16:37
ignas(if you don't want the password logged)16:38
th1apass -r (password)16:38
th1apass -r -16:38
ignas./ -r -16:39
ignasor ./ -r myNewPassword16:39
* ignas is looking for the place default is set in16:39
ignasit's in "src/schooltool/app/" and it should still be "schooltool" for a fresh checkout16:40
th1aHm... OK.16:41
th1aAnyhow, let's talk about what's coming next.16:41
th1aDid my UI email make any sense?16:42
ignasyes it did16:43
ignasi had similar ideas16:43
th1aignas:  Good.16:43
th1aI'm not sure how hard switching to tabs will be.16:43
th1aWhat do you think?16:44
ignastechnically not very difficult i think, but thinking of what should be in the views as well as rewriting of functional tests will take time16:44
th1aOh crap.  Yes it will probably break a million tests.16:45
ignaswell, depends, don't think that it will be very difficult to fix, though if we change the paths users are taking through the system16:45
ignaswe will have to modify tests to resemble that16:45
ignasthat is to be expected with test driven development16:46
th1aYes, there is nothing you can do about breaking tests when you change things.16:46
th1aAlso, we'll have to test the different views presented to different users.16:47
* jinty arrives late and in a rush16:47
th1ahi jinty16:47
ignasZope3 broke a lot of tests again16:47
th1aOh, no.16:48
ignasand the bug report that involved outlook seems to be genuine16:48
jintyhi th1a16:48
th1aThe bug report seems to be unreadable in Gmail.16:48
ignaswe still do have buggy timezone handling in weekly/monthly views apparently16:48
th1aignas:  Do you understand the problem?16:49
* ignas can reproduce it16:49
* ignas can fix it16:49
th1aOK.  We should add that to the next contract.16:50
th1aLets discuss the alpha while jinty is here.16:51
jintyyeah, you want a another one right?16:52
th1aWell... it would be nice to have one without broken tests.16:52
th1aI just installed it on my laptop and didn't reproduce my password problem.16:53
th1aI don't know what might have caused it before.16:53
jintyIt was a silly broke test that I decided to ignore16:53
th1aBut I guess we should assume it was some kind of crack-smoking freak error.16:53
th1aSo at this point we have other tests breaking in Zope 3, and we are probably better off just "releasing" what we've got?16:54
jintyThe broken test in the alpha2 is not serious16:54
jintybut making anoter alpha with the broken tests we have from zope right now would probably not be a very good idea16:55
th1aRight.  I just thought it was bad form to go through all this test driven development and then have a release with a trivial broken test.16:55
ignasproblem is that Zope3 full text indexing is slightly broken16:56
ignasit can't do some queries16:56
ignaslike "a"16:56
ignasor *a*16:56
ignaslonger queries work fine16:56
ignasunless they are complex and wrong like "(foo) bar"16:57
ignasin which case user gets a traceback16:57
th1aOK.  So I'll take some screenshots and announce the release later today.16:58
jintyth1a: I think that as long as we can justify why a broken test is a false positive, we are still doint test driven development.16:58
th1ajinty:  I was thinking of appearances more than anything else.16:58
jintyth1a: this was a really freaky case where the form of the version number was breaking a test....16:58
jintyth1a: yeah16:59
th1aSo jinty's work is done on that.16:59
th1aOn alpha2.16:59
ignasjinty: not the form, the query is *a*16:59
th1aDoes *a* mean "all "a"'s on the page?17:00
ignasi'd even go as far as fix that file or comment that testcase so users would not see it17:00
ignasth1a: no it should mean - find all users that have "a" in their name17:00
jintyignas: I was talking about something different, if the version number contains "alpha" then "alpha is in browser.contents" is always true17:01
ignasjinty: oh, that one17:01
ignasth1a: but it breaks on this case as "alpha" matches and "beta" does not17:01
th1aOK.  Let's get back to discussing the UI.17:02
ignasok :)17:02
th1aSo navigationally, here is what I'm picturing.17:02
th1aIf I'm looking at a section, I can switch from the calendar to attendance to gradebook for that section by hitting the tabs.17:03
th1aOr if I'm looking at the gradebook, I can switch from one section's gradebook to another by hitting the section links in navigation.17:03
th1aBut I want the application to remember that I'm looking at gradebooks,17:04
th1aand take me from one gradebook to another, not always to the "homepage" of the section.17:04
th1aMake sense?17:04
th1aThat's doable, right?17:05
th1aOK section refactoring...17:06
th1aChange the api so that it handles group enrollments properly.17:07
ignasproperly meaning ?17:07
th1aEssentially add a method that always gives you a list of students in the section.17:07
ignasabstract away subgroups and direct members17:08
ignasand have an accessor that would allow manipulating the real list of members17:08
th1aAlso, sections have irrelevant meta-data that needs to be cleaned up.17:08
ignaswhat meta-data exactly ?17:09
th1aI don't think the user should have to enter an id or code to create a section.17:10
th1aSince sections often don't have those.17:10
th1aMy discussions of this with bskahan long ago just seemed to lead to more meta-data, not less.17:11
ignasi see17:11
th1aSo a user should optionally be able to add an id, title, description when creating a section,17:12
th1abut generally I think that's a screen you click through.17:12
ignasso you want something like an "Add Section" button that would lead directly to instructor selection view ?17:13
th1aNot even that.17:13
ignaswhat about displaying of sections to a user ? what things identify a section ?17:14
ignashow teachers discern between 2 sections ? how students do that ?17:14
th1aAh yes, that's another thing srichter and I were digging around in.17:14
th1aIt seems like it is surprisingly hard to identify a section by its meeting time.17:14
th1aBased on how timetables work.17:14
ignaswell, in lithuanian usecase it would not be that convenient to have a section for each meeting time i'd say17:15
th1aignas:  What?  You have to have a section for each meeting time.17:17
ignasat least when i was a student important things for me were that i am having a "Math lesson" in university it's  "Math in 405"17:17
ignasth1a: no, i don't17:17
ignasth1a: what i mean - schooltool supports both usecases now17:18
th1aWe're obviously thinking of different things.17:18
ignasth1a: indeed17:18
th1aAnyhow, if you don't have a time based schedule, you're likely to want to see "Period A Math."17:18
th1aCan we do that?17:19
ignasyes we can17:19
th1aOK.  Basically how it is represented has to change according to the role of the user.17:20
ignasfrom what i understand Math for 12 year olds will be caled differently form Math for 13 year olds17:20
th1aSo for a teacher, you want the subject and time.17:20
ignasand this information will be stored in the Course name17:20
th1aThe are different courses.17:20
ignasSo teacher wants a Course, place, time17:21
th1aI should have said "course" instead of "subject."17:21
ignasstuedents might want Teacher name too (not sure about it)17:21
th1aI think time more than place.17:21
th1aAlthough that's another Lithuania/US difference.17:21
th1aDo the teachers come to you in Lithuania?17:21
ignaswe have both17:22
ignasbigger schools have pupils walking17:22
ignassmaller ones have teachers comming to them17:22
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ignassome have it mixed17:23
ignasI had in 6-7th grade17:23
ignasgeography had it's own classroom17:23
ignaswhile math and simmilar stuff were going in the "our" classroom17:23
th1aWell, course and time are always useful (in the navigation menu) for teachers.17:23
ignasand teachers know that "this one is for me" if they see it in theri views17:24
th1aAnd for students, for that matter.17:24
th1aFor admins you need to add the teacher.17:24
th1aActually I guess that pretty much covers the cases.17:24
ignasnot really17:25
ignasi have just recalled one more17:25
ignasin my school teachers were teaching "Math for 9th grade" for 9a 9b 9c17:26
ignasand though the course is the same17:26
ignasit is important for a teacher "which homework assignment should i pull out, etc."17:26
ignasin lithuania it is important which Group of people are you lecturing to17:27
ignasfor a teacher17:27
th1aRight, but they met different times, right?17:27
th1aSo course and time will usually be sufficient.17:27
th1aI guess you might have the same course meeting at the same time, but different sections during the week.17:28
ignasbut seeing "Math 9th grade 8:00" "Math 9th grade 9:00" "Math 9th grade 10:00"17:28
ignasis not helpful17:28
th1aWhy isn't that helpful?17:28
ignasi don't know whether 9a is comming to me or 9c17:28
th1aWell, that's a different problem.17:29
th1aI mean,17:29
th1aOne question is what is the shortest useful title we can generate to use for navigation.17:29
th1aIf you forget the location, or whatever, that can be noted elsewhere.  The calendar, etc.17:30
th1aI think we're ready to write some stories.17:31
th1aignas:  This'll be enough work for a contract, right?17:32
ignasthis  being "UI" + "sections" + "bugfix" ?17:33
th1aSeems like plenty to me.17:33
ignasyes indeed17:33
ignaswhat's the physical deadline for this ?17:33
th1aWell... end of July?17:34
th1aNo later than that.17:35
ignasi'll try estimating with that in mind17:35
ignasi am afraid that the full UI story might be a bit too big as we will be leaving for europython next week17:36
ignasthough i definitely want to make at least some improvements17:36
ignaslike the "action" menu17:36
th1aOK.  You should get started on the bugfixing if you've got time.17:37
th1aWhich I guess is mostly the timezone bugs that have cropped up.17:38
algath1a: re my visa...17:38
algamy visa interview is on July 1217:38
ignasth1a: ok, i'll go on estimating and bugfixing then17:38
th1aalga:  Do you need anything else from me?17:39
algaso I'll know for sure whether I'm going or not only then17:39
algath1a: no, I'm fine, thanks17:39
th1aalga:  OK.  Good luck.17:39
algathe travel agents cannot reserve tickets for this long, so it seems I'll be hunting for last minute tickets to US17:40
th1aI can't believe that it is now easier to get into and out of Lithuania than the US.17:40
th1aHow things have changed.17:40
th1aalga:  OK, so I should be anticipating eating a more expensive flight than I anticipated.17:41
th1aIt shouldn't be a problem.17:41
th1aNothing to be done about it.17:41
algadepends... there's a better chance to grab a good deal too17:41
th1aalga:  True.17:41
th1aSomeone else doesn't get their visa and you get a cheap seat.17:42
th1aOK.  I'll let you guys go.17:42
th1aHave a good week.17:42
algayou too17:42
* th1a bangs the virtual gravel.17:42
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_pcarduneI hope I didn't miss *too* much at the meeting this morning21:17
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