IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2006-06-07

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pcarduneth1a: ayt?04:04
th1apcardune:  I'm here.04:07
pcardunedo you have a minute to talk about import/export?  I recently sent an email to the zope corp guy that manages the CTEResource website04:07
pcarduneand jelkner wants it to be his top priority04:08
th1aGo ahead.04:08
pcarduneI'd like to develope a well integrated xml based import/export system for schooltool/cando04:08
pcarduneIn the end, the hope would be that it could entirely replace the data stored in the ZODB04:09
th1aImport/export the whole db?04:09
th1aI think Plone is doing that now.04:09
th1aOr is going to do that.04:10
pcarduneI mean, as much as I love zodb, it seems brittle, even with the evolve scripts04:10
th1aI know what you mean.04:10
th1aI think it would be a good thing, but I'm not sure if it is the same problem as competency import/export.04:11
pcarduneno, it certainly isn't the same problem, but they are related04:11
pcarduneAt this point, i don't know how i am going to transfer data between cando 2005 and cando 200604:12
pcardunein theory the evolve scripts could do it, but the generation numbers are all messed up because we forked and didn't do it right the first time04:12
th1aWell, I agree that having a full db import/export option would be a good thing.04:13
pcarduneIt is relatively easy to grab certain raw data, like a list of students, courses, competencies, but it is more difficult to export relationships between objects04:13
pcardunewhich is just as vital information as the plain relationshipless lists04:14
pcarduneFrom an implementation point of view, I think it would be pretty easy to do it in a bit by bit fashion04:14
th1aYes.  If you aren't careful you'll end up using RDF.04:14
pcardunethis is my concern04:15
pcarduneI have basically no experience with xml standards and know that I am going to do it incorrectly the first time around04:15
th1aWell, there is standards and standards.04:16
th1aIf you're only interoperating with yourself, you can change the rules whenever you want.04:16
pcardunewell, I'm really interoperating with future versions of the system which will have unforseen requirements04:17
th1aI'll repeat that the standards import/export and database import/export are two different problems.04:17
th1aYeah, that's a problem, too.04:17
pcarduneAlthough one thought that just occurred to me is to think about it like deb packages04:18
th1aHave you tried debugging the generations scripts?04:18
th1aI'm worried you aren't just substituting one pain for another.04:18
th1aThat you are.04:18
pcarduneI'm not talking about that bug I found a few days ago... i fixed that.  I suppose it would be possible to fix, but i'd need to know a lot more about controlling zodb04:19
pcarduneBut that's not the only reason for having extensive import/export capabilities04:20
th1aThere is probably a big difference between the way you'd write an XML syntax for backing up a database and how you'd do it to transfer data between apps.04:21
th1aPlain old Zope two has some way of exporting a backup.04:21
pcarduneok, let me give you an example04:22
pcardunecurriculum can be attached to competencies as metadata.  Curriculum is also its own content component....04:23
pcarduneIf I export competencies, I may want to export the curriculum along side those competencies04:23
th1aExport as a backup or to move it to another application?04:24
pcardunebut curriculum is yet another zope component which may be equally or more complex that a list competencies, and therefore warranting its own xml format04:24
pcarduneexport to move to another application04:24
pcardune(which may be a future version)04:25
pcarduneAlso, some competencies may point to the same curriculum04:25
pcarduneso, i would store the an id for the curriculum pointed to by a competency when exporting the competencies (to maintain that relationship)04:26
pcardunethen export the curriculum separately, in a different file or something04:27
th1aI think you're mixing too many problems together.04:27
pcarduneI agree with you on that04:28
th1aIf you're not careful you could spend all summer on this.04:28
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th1aHow does CTEResource want to export competencies?04:29
pcardunethey don't at this point, Lee Capps (I think you got his email) is looking into it04:29
th1aA new email?04:30
pcardunefrom yesterday04:31
pcarduneoh it seems to say the they would like to do an XML view04:31
th1aOK.  I see it.04:32
th1aI think you have to absolutely separate backup and data sharing with other apps problems.04:34
th1aThey both use XML, but they're different problems.04:34
th1aIf you try to do both at the same time you're screwed.04:35
th1aUnless you do it in RDF, but then you're screwed in a different way.04:35
pcarduneok, that is the good advice I was looking for04:36
th1aJust passing standards from the state to you is easy.04:36
th1aYou can use an existing standard or make up one in an afternoon.04:37
th1aTying in other content from your database makes it much, much harder.04:37
th1aOTOH, figuring out a way to dump the whole database to XML in some form that is ugly but works is probably not too hard.04:38
th1aBut getting dainty or trying to do it so it will make sense to another human and his or her application is much harder.04:38
pcardunein that case, my only question is whether you foresee wanting xml export capabilities for schooltool components04:39
pcarduneI plan on making some interfaces like IExportable and IImportable or something, and then people can make adapters for components as they see fit04:40
pcarduneshould I put those in schooltool?04:40
th1aI would want this to work in a very low level way.04:40
th1aDump the whole db, reimport it.04:41
pcardunesomething like the way CSV import works now? or more low level?04:41
th1aYou should look at what Plone is doing (which I haven't done).04:41
pcarduneoh, at this point I am talking about exporting specific peices of data to share with other apps04:41
pcardunelike exporting a list of users04:42
th1aI've decided to finally just back SIF for interoperability.04:42
th1aSee http://sifsoft.com04:42
th1aWe're starting to write some SIF libraries for Python and PHP.04:43
th1aAnd trying resurrect the old Java Zone Integration Server, which is the key piece to the puzzle.04:43
* pcardune reading the sif site04:44
pcarduneSIF is xml based presumably?04:46
pcarduneI'm not entirely clear on what the ZIS is supposed to do04:47
th1aIt is oriented toward passing messages around rather than just backing up a database, though.04:47
th1aOK, the ZIS coordinates the sharing of data between apps in the school.04:47
th1aYou add, say, SchoolTool, to your network and point it at your ZIS (if we had a SIF agent).04:48
th1aSchoolTool says "I provide the StudentPersonal object."04:48
th1aYour library system says "I subscribe to the StudentPersonal object."04:48
pcarduneoooh, ok04:48
th1aWhen someone adds a person to SchoolTool, it notifies the ZIS and then the ZIS tells the library system.04:48
pcarduneso the data isn't actually stored on the ZIS04:48
th1aIt is a router.04:49
pcarduneoh, this is certainly very good04:49
th1aIt is like D-Bus for a school.04:49
pcardunewhat about more than one school?04:49
th1aThere just isn't an open source ZIS, which has screwed us for years.04:49
pcarduneor more than one ZIS?04:49
pcardunewhat is the state of this project?04:50
th1aSIF about died, in my opinion, until it started being pushed by state governments, so there is a lot of work done on big zones for state doe's.04:50
th1aIt is strong at this point.04:50
th1aIt has been around forever.04:51
th1aIt is a bit ideosyncratic because it is so old.04:51
th1aBasically it is an XML web service system that was developed before SOAP, XML-RPC, etc.04:51
th1aOther countries are starting to take it up now as well.04:52
pcarduneYou said that python SIF modules were starting to be written04:52
th1aI got more excited about it again after Edubuntu came out, because I realized that if we had an open source ZIS, we could create a distribution where all the apps like SchoolTool, Moodle, even LDAP worked together right out of the box.04:52
th1aBy me.04:53
th1aI don't think there is a link...04:53
th1ajust a sec...04:53
pcardunethis looks fairly involved04:55
pcardunei'm impressed04:55
th1aWell, the lxml library helps a lot.04:55
pcarduneis Jeff Elkner aware of all this?04:55
th1aAnd we've got the old Java code to port from.04:55
th1aThis just happened, so no.04:55
th1aActually, some of his students might be able to work on this, because you can copy from the Java and Matt's PHP examples.04:56
th1aNot that I know either language.04:56
th1aPretty much everything I've written is in
th1aWhich is very un-OOD.04:57
th1aNo tests, either.04:57
pcardunewell, I'll certainly mention it to elkner, and maybe one of our interns can work on it, or maybe even I will work on it04:58
th1aSo my point is, that I'd like to focus interoperability work on SIF.04:59
th1aOh, also, Elkner, Welsh and I talked to a guy in Erie (I think) who is interested in using CanDo.04:59
th1aHe was like separated from birth with Elkner & Welsh.05:00
pcardunehe he he05:00
th1aAnyhow, his school uses SIF, so we talked about that for a while.05:00
pcardunewell, it's getting pretty late.05:01
pcarduneI'm going to talk to elkner about this in more depth on thursday05:01
pcarduneand maybe we can come up with a good proposal05:01
th1aOK.  Good.  Great talking to you!05:01
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povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6165:13:57
povbot/svn/commits: Change table.html into index.html and make sure all the tests still work.13:57
povbot/svn/commits: This necessitated making the full name of the person a link to the display form for nameinfo, as there were assumptions in many tests to that effect...13:57
povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6166:14:44
povbot/svn/commits: Remove old view that isn't in use anymore.14:44
povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6167:15:22
povbot/svn/commits: CSS tweak: even/odd rendering.15:22
povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6168:15:24
povbot/svn/commits: Tweak even/odd CSS to make it more consistent.15:24
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6169:16:39
povbot/svn/commits: Got rid of duplicate code in relationship editing views.16:39
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6170:16:49
povbot/svn/commits: Moved RelationshipViewBase to to prevent spurious dependencies on
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6171:16:54
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed bug in
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6172:17:13
povbot/svn/commits: Uncommented some functional tests. Extended owner permission a bit so users can edit their own calendars properly.17:13
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6173:18:25
povbot/svn/commits: Added a leadership relationship and leadership editing views.  Added a default page template for RelationshipViewBase.18:25
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6174:18:39
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed failing functional test.18:39
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6175:18:50
povbot/svn/commits: Removed redundant templates.18:50
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6176:19:04
povbot/svn/commits: Added a crowd of leaders.19:04
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6177:19:47
povbot/svn/commits: Resources are now editable by their leaders.19:47
povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6178:19:51
povbot/svn/commits: Make this field required. It is in the add form already.19:51
povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6179:19:52
povbot/svn/commits: Add a 'Apply and Next' button to the demographics forms. This goes to the next menu entry after submitting.19:52
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 6180:19:59
povbot/svn/commits: Updated functional test to work with the new security policy.19:59
ignasmerge time :D19:59
ignasfaassen: ping20:01
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6181:20:23
povbot/svn/commits: Make viewlets aware of their actual contexts so users would not see navigation links to objects they can't access.20:23
povbot/svn/commits: Replace some extraneous zope.View with schooltool view.20:23
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6182:20:28
povbot/svn/commits: Some snail food and a typo.20:28
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tristilWould it be useful if I produced a diff getting rid of the deprecations in Zope 3.3, or is that trivial?20:57
tristilSorry, the deprecations in Schoolbell?20:58
th1atristil: I think it would indeed be helpful.21:00
th1aAny love for SchoolBell is welcome.21:00
tristilth1a, cool, I'll get back to you when that's done, then.21:01
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ignasth1a: ayt ?21:16
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6183:21:40
povbot/svn/commits: Brand new security policy.21:40
povbot/svn/commits: Had to tweak the functional test for demographics a bit (person list is not public anymore by default). Also removed some snailfood from that test.21:40
povbot/svn/commits: cal-security.txt is commented out and left in there for future reference and it will get replaced with a functional test for the new security policy.21:40
povbot/svn/commits: Documentation is a bit WIP so if you have any questions or something works differently than expected and hindering your progress yell loudly at me or Gintas until we fix it.21:40
povbot/svn/commits: A lot of functionality is still missing, but schooltool is already usable (all of the functional tests pass without any significant changes).21:40
ignashave fun :)21:42
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pcardunewow, I'm just getting a look at this demographics package22:11
pcardunelooks pretty sweet from the UI end22:11
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