IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2005-07-22

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pcardunehello jelkner01:33
jelknerhi paul01:34
jelknerthla: tom, are you here?01:34
jelknerpcardune: paul, how are you doing?01:36
jelknereldar just finished the demo01:38
pcardunewhat is the out look? or the look out?01:38
jelknerand, i want to figure out how to get the feedback to everyone01:38
jelknerhi tom01:39
jelknerare both of you up for a quick discussion of cando?01:39
th1aI have a bit of time.01:39
pcarduneso do i01:40
jelknerok, i'm waiting for dave to finish talking with aziz and jeff coupe01:41
jelknerso let me update you with a few things01:41
jelknerfirst, carol county maryland and virginia beach, virginia both want to use cando next year01:42
jelknerdave will be making visits to those counties to show it to them01:42
jelknermy concern now is communication01:42
pcardunebetween which parties?01:43
jelknerdave took detailed notes on eldar's demo, but right now they exist only in a text file01:43
jelknerbetween customers and developers01:43
jelknerdave welsh and you, primarily01:43
jelknerand i want to do it here so it is part of the record01:43
th1aIt is ok with me if you use SchoolTool channels to discuss this stuff.01:44
th1aThat way you get more eyes on it.01:45
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pcardunehello dwelsh01:46
pcardune(just fixed the bug for setting scores to '--'01:47
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th1aHi Dave.01:47
dwelshHope you're rested from NECC01:47
jelknerdave, could you sumarize your impression of cando in it's present state?01:47
jcoupeHi everyone..01:47
dwelshThe gang here has just worked with CanDo2/SchoolTool01:48
jelknerwhat is working the way you want, what isn't?01:48
dwelshThe gang being Eldar, Aziz, Elkner01:48
th1aCan I see this demo?01:48
jelknerpaul, can you explain that to tom?01:48
pcarduneyou will see a "candotoo" link on the left, and everything there is what we've added01:49
dwelshLooks good so far, with just a few minor data entry bugs01:49
dwelshAlso talked a little about nomenclature01:49
th1aI think I need a login.01:50
pcarduneoh right... for now, just login to with gandalf/12301:50
pcardune(we will change that)01:50
dwelshRegarding the major nomenclature issue...01:51
dwelshBefore we used Competency GROUPS and SKILLSETS01:51
dwelshWhich I like better than TEMPLATES and SKILLSETS01:52
dwelshGROUP being the whole list for a course like TV Production01:52
dwelshSKILLSETS being the subgrouping of competencies for that course01:52
pcardune(skillsets are still used in that sense)01:52
dwelshCorrect.  SKILLSETS are fine.01:53
dwelshTEMPLATE is too generic a word in my view01:53
dwelshnot intuitive01:53
th1aI agree that "Competencies Templates" is problematic.01:53
pcardunereally?  my impression was that it made more sense (at least to me)01:53
jelknernot at all intuitive to me01:54
jelknerwhen i saw it, i had know idea what it was01:54
dwelshTEMPLATES was lost on all of us here except Eldar.01:54
th1apcardune:  You are indeed a programmer :-)01:54
pcardunewell, i don't like groups either, especially since there is already something in schooltool called a Group, and we dont want to imply any kind of association between those two things01:54
dwelshI like even better GROUP and SUBGROUP01:55
dwelshNo confusion there01:55
pcarduneok, what about the word Competency vs. Skill?01:55
th1aCouldn't you use something like "Course Requirements?"01:56
th1aI mean, if the significance of the grouping is its relationship to a course?01:56
dwelshProblem is, there are many more course requirements than just skill/competency acquisitionl01:57
pcarduneth1a, and eventually, we want our software to be able to handle all types of evaluation, beyond just competencies01:58
dwelshCompetencies are skills01:58
dwelshwe go with competencies in VA because it is the VA term01:58
jelknerand to add to that, i want to use personalize competency lists in my independent study course next year01:58
jelknerso competencies would be per student, not per course01:58
jelknerwe both agree that group and set are intuitive words to teachers02:00
th1aThis also might make more sense if it was more integrated into the rest of SchoolTool.02:00
th1aWell, does the "Advanced Programming" template represent a course?02:01
pcarduneth1a, yes, it deffinitly would.  as of now, there are a total of 6 lines changed in schooltool code to make this all work...02:01
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pcardunejelkner, in the last version, you created a course, and directly from the course page, you had a link to the competencygroup02:02
pcarduneat the moment, we are not touching that user interface stuff in any respect, because it is very likely to change/improve02:02
th1aOK.  That's reasonable.02:03
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th1aKeeping your piece relatively self-contained is prudent in the short term.02:03
pcarduneso, all that user interface stuff, kind of has to be done backwards02:04
dwelshStraw vote here... we like competency group, and subgroups02:05
pcardune(it would be easier to integrate, but at this point, that means forking... and that is *bad* idea)02:05
pcardunei'll give in02:05
jelknerwe need to move on, so competency groups and subgroups it is...02:06
dwelshBiggest data entry issues...02:06
dwelshAfter you enter data in a field02:06
dwelshand then return to that field to check data02:06
dwelshthe moment you click on your data, it DISAPPEARS!02:06
jelknerthis is a bug02:07
jelknera schooltool bug?02:07
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jelknerit was the most anoying part of the demo experience02:07
dwelshwell, besides Elkner's spelling02:08
jelknerpaul, tom, can you confirm where this comes from?02:08
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th1aIt is certainly not a bug that exists elsewhere in SchoolTool.02:08
pcardunewhich fields were you entering data into02:08
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pcardune(cando or schooltool)?02:08
pcardunei presume it was us02:09
dwelshwhen entering Competency Subgroup headers02:09
pcardunewe were just finishing that off when you walked in the door02:09
dwelshas well as individual competencies02:09
pcarduneoooh... that is easy to change02:09
th1aIt happens when you are editing the competencies templates.02:09
th1aDo you have some javascript going on there?02:09
pcarduneit is us02:09
pcardunewe can change that no problem02:10
eldaroh ok02:10
eldari thought it was schooltool02:10
eldarsorry about that02:10
dwelshNext data entry issue...02:10
dwelshwhen editing a competency02:10
pcardunedo you still want it to have the preentered values explaining what is supposed to go in the box?02:10
dwelshone cannot change the group with which it is associated02:10
dwelshwould be nice to be able to do that.02:10
dwelshI mean the SUBGROUP/SKILLSET with which it is associated02:10
th1apcardune:  I don't think that's good UI practice.02:10
pcardunesure you can,02:10
dwelshSkillsets are so 20 minutes ago!!!02:11
pcarduneyou can use the up/down buttons02:11
dwelshWill up/down change subgroups associations?02:11
gpaciThere should be a way to send diagrams as small text strings.02:11
pcarduneoh... sorry... this nomenclature is getting to me02:11
th1aI'm going to drift in and out here...  I'll read the backlog.02:11
dwelshGROUPS.... SUBGROUPS02:11
jelknerthla: one quick thing before you go02:12
jelknerwould it be possible to arrange to meet with some of the folks from baltimore some thursday before summer ends?02:12
jelknera mini schooltool/cando sprint here at the school?02:13
pcarduneok, so you have a SUBGROUP with title "Basic Programming Skills", and in that group you have 3 skills, "a", "b", and "c", then you have another SUBGROUP, title: "Advanced Programming skills", with some other skills in that02:13
pcardunedo you want to move "a" to "Advanced Programming Skills"?02:13
pcarduneyeah... up and down buttons02:13
pcardunewhen it gets to a border, it jumps to the next one02:14
pcarduneor previous one for that matter02:14
jelknerdave is trying this out...02:15
th1ajelkner:  You'll have to ask them.02:15
jelknercould you send me a list of who "them" is?02:15
jelknerso i can contact "them"02:15 and bskahan@etria.com02:16
th1aTom and Brian.02:16
jelknerok, thanks!02:16
dwelshyes, up/down does work.02:16
th1aBrian is in New York a lot of the time now, however.02:16
dwelshLike the way up/down will reverse whole SUBGROUPS02:16
pcarduneyep :)02:16
dwelshgood job02:16
dwelshFlexible score system is a cool idea02:17
dwelshBut at minimum will need helptext02:17
pcardunelike those fun little strings that pop up when you mouse over?02:17
dwelshI didn't mind those at all02:18
gpacipcardune: Then what will I do 5 minutes later?02:18
dwelshOr mouseover help menus02:18
dwelshbut keep it simple02:18
pcardunegpaci, then you can have fun with parsing html02:18
gpacipcardune: Are you and Eldar done with scoring?02:18
gpaciNow that the big bug is fixed?02:19
pcardunegpaci, and dont be so sure of yourself02:19
gpaciYeah: it might only take four minutes.02:19
pcardunedwelsh, it was a suggestion02:19
dwelshYou guys figure out how to do it02:20
dwelshJust provide some help/documentation02:20
pcardunegpaci, delusions of grandeur... no, we are not done with scoring, need to figure out how to compare to values in zpt without python02:20
pcardunedwelsh, can do (no pun intended)02:20
gpacipcardune: Without python?02:20
jelknerpcardune: let's focus on the customer meeting now02:20
jelknerprogrammer meeting later02:21
dwelshNext issue...02:21
dwelshField lengths of id# and flag02:21
dwelshid# needs to be about 12 characters long02:21
gpacipcardune: jelkner's pulling me off you; Eldar and I will proceed without you.02:21
dwelshflag needs only maybe 2 characters02:21
jelkneri think flags are configurable, then drop down02:22
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pcardunei agree with jelkner... i was going to make them drop down,02:22
dwelshfine, just make id# longer02:23
dwelshwould be nice to be able to see whole id# when entering data02:23
jelknerpcardune: question - we have all the va state competency lists in xml02:23
jelknerwhen do we talk about importing them?02:23
pcardunegpaci will be working on that02:24
jelknergreat ;-)02:24
pcarduneschooltool has its very own xml handling stuff which is *very* useful02:24
pcardunewe will use it for fucntional tests as well02:24
gpaciPoint me to schooltool's XML code.02:24
dwelshAlmost done, guys02:25
dwelshThe big issue where we left off02:25
dwelshData entry most likely will happen on a spreadsheet view02:26
dwelshwith students on the lefthand side, and competencies on the top02:26
dwelshPaul will recall that most of our changes to CanDo1 were to this spreadsheet view02:27
dwelshThe spreadsheet is what makes data entry fast02:27
pcardunethat is the mark for the next big hurdle02:28
dwelshIt's really not practical to go into student views02:28
pcarduneright, we just needed that as a foundation02:28
pcardune(bottom up)02:28
dwelshThey care about that view, but teachers care more about seeing all their students at once02:28
dwelshThe issue you guys will want to puzzle though...02:29
dwelshShould you try to build a large spreadsheet02:29
dwelshwith all competencies going across the top02:29
pcardunei think that makes the most sense02:29
dwelshOr should you show all students on left and a SUBGROUP of competencies?02:30
dwelshor should you show all students on left and just one competency for grading purposes02:30
dwelshOr maybe all three options???02:30
dwelshI like the big spreadsheet, with the totals at the end.02:30
pcarduneall three options02:30
dwelshBut this spreadsheet can get awfully long02:30
pcardunei want to use javascript the way they do with gmail02:30
pcardunethat rocks02:31
dwelshEspecially if you are showing full id#s at the top of the columns02:31
pcarduneso you will be able to click off and on those views02:31
dwelshYes, all three options would be best02:31
dwelshAnd if we keep an eye on palm pilot entry in the future02:31
pcarduneit would be nice to have a way to make the id's formatted to be verticle... im not sure that can be done with html02:31
dwelshWe will want to see one column of skills at a time02:31
pcardune(that would really impress the guys in richmond)02:32
dwelshyes, it would be nice.02:32
dwelshsmall columns is actually the reason I like truncating the id's02:32
dwelshi.e. forget the first part "TDI8690."02:32
dwelshjust show the 001, 002, 003 part02:32
pcarduneof course02:32
dwelshthen append back on the TDI8690 part on reports02:33
dwelshOK, you understand the issues.02:33
pcarduneactually, in terms of data entry, the id field in place, is meant only for the 001 part... the TDI39283 applies to all of them, so there will be another field for that "prefix"02:33
dwelshClearly, you guys need to allow creation of courses and sections02:33
dwelshand marry the students and competency groups to those02:34
pcardunethat is done already by schooltool02:34
pcardunealthough the marriage between competency groups, evaluation objects, score systems, and everything else, is a one way marriage... the students and courses don't know about the existance of the cando classes... changing that is not going to happen02:35
pcardunein the near future, unless we fork... *bad* ideas02:35
dwelshone last issue to think about for the future...02:35
dwelshWe need the ability to activate and deactivate compentencies for scoring purposes02:36
pcardunei think that problem has been solved... with the '--' score entry02:37
pcarduneit is similar to just not entering in a grade in most commercial grading applications that i've looked over teacher's shoulders to see02:37
dwelshYes, that would work02:37
dwelshOK, any other input you guys need from me at this point?02:38
pcardunei dont think so... we have plenty to work on02:38
dwelshIf we implement CanDo2 this year, we will need it by the last week of August02:38
pcarduneactually, the week before the last week02:39
dwelshGreat going so far.  Keep it up.02:39
pcardunebecause the last week of august, i have college orientation and all that stuff02:39
pcardunedwelsh, development should be faster from now on,02:39
pcardunewe have overcome most of the zope/schooltool learning curve02:40
pcardunehopefully will finish off the last of the hill with the XML parsing stuff02:40
jelknerok, great paul, thanks!02:44
pcardunemy pleasure02:44
jelknernow i'm getting george a copy of one of the xml files02:44
jelknerso he can:02:44
jelkner1. look at the file format and verify that it makes sense02:45
jelkner2. figure out how to import the competencies into cando02:45
pcardune(and change the nomenclature if necessary with his emacs skillz)02:46
jelknerin fact, if we agree the file format makes sense, we need to:02:46
jelkner1. document it (jeff coupe?)02:46
jelkner2. convince folks in va cte to use it (dave welsh)02:46
jelknerok, paul, talk to you later...02:51
eldarok, good night02:53
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th1apcardune:  I think you should consider forking off SchoolTool 0.11, which will be out in 2.5 weeks.03:02
pcardunewhat kind of functionality are you planning on adding after that?03:03
th1aThe release candidate should be out on Tuesday, so really you could fork off that.03:03
th1aWell, after that it will be the big rearrangements to turn this into more of a general platform.03:03
th1aDefining how you add extensions like CanDo, for example.03:03
th1aAmong other things... creating the basic application objects for the SIS.03:04
th1aStudent Information System.03:04
th1aThe whole demographics/attendance/gradebook/reporting system.03:04
pcarduneafter you have defined how to add extensions, would it be a good idea for us to reintegrate?03:05
pcarduneok, that does sound like a good idea03:05
th1aI wouldn't want to track our changes to the framework through August and September.  They may be big architectural maneuvers.03:06
pcarduneyeah, i remember you talking about that earlier03:06
th1aWe'll want your input on that soon as well.  What would make it easier to do things like CanDo with SchoolTool.03:09
pcarduneabsolutely, I could come up with a whole list of stuff03:10
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gpaciHelp: I'm trying to import a module, and keep getting "ImportError: No module named zope.i18n", even though it's clearly on my PYTHONPATH03:58
gpaciNever mind: I added "zope" to the entry by mistake.04:00
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srichterth1a: can I assume that the 'manager' group will always be available?15:11
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srichteralga: can I assume that the 'manager' group will always be available?15:28
algacurrently we don't have it AFAIK15:34
algabut it is possible15:34
algaif you do assume, add that group to the app initialization and create an evolution script15:35
srichterI really need this because I need to give someone the workflow work to do; I could have the user select the group that manages the workflow, but I think this would unnecessarily clutter the UI15:38
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4312:16:10
povbot/svn/commits: ReST syntax fix.16:10
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bskahanhi marius16:50
pcarduneok, i've got a weird thing happening, i have a <select> tag in a form, with name="foo", in the request object, instead of "foo":someval, it gives me ('foo',):someval, what is up with that?16:59
srichterthat makes no sense17:01
srichterare you really sure? because the request parsing code is as old as Zope and has not changed in years17:01
pcardunethen i saw somewhere else:  u"('foo',)":someval17:01
srichtersoemthing really fishy is going on17:02
srichtercan you paste your HTML?17:02
pcarduneoh wait...17:03
pcardunehold on, i might have done something royally stupid17:03
pcardunenope, i didn't do something stupid17:04
pcardunei will paste the html17:04
pcardunebe warned, it is kind of long and ugly17:04
pcardune<select size="1" tal:attributes="name skill/marker">17:04
pcardune                  <option tal:condition="python:skill['score'] == '--'"17:04
pcardune                          value="--" select="true">--</option>17:04
pcardune                  <option tal:condition="python:skill['score'] != '--'"17:04
pcardune                          value="--">--</option>17:04
pcardune                <tal:var repeat="scorePos view/getScoreNames">17:04
pcardune                  <option tal:condition="python:str(repeat['scorePos'].index) == str(skill['score'])"17:04
pcardune                          selected="true"17:04
pcardune                          tal:attributes="value repeat/scorePos/index"17:04
pcardune                          tal:content="scorePos">some score description</option>17:04
pcardune                  <option tal:condition="python:str(repeat['scorePos'].index) != str(skill['score'])"17:04
pcardune                          tal:attributes="value repeat/scorePos/index"17:04
pcardune                          tal:content="scorePos">some score description</option>17:05
pcardune                </tal:var>17:05
pcardune                </select>17:05
mgedminwhat is skill['marker']?17:05
srichterI bet you that skill/marker returns (u'foo'.)17:05
pcardune marker = 'skill.%s.%s' % (index, skill_index)17:06
pcardunealthough i just found a stray comman at the end of that line...17:06
mgedminta da!17:06
srichterjust print the value in the HTML and see what you get17:06
pcardunewow... that is weird... does that mean... a= 1, returns a tuple?17:07
srichterof course17:07
pcardunethat is screwed up, that should be illegal syntax or something17:07
srichterno, because you want to be able to say: return x, y17:07
pcarduneyeah... that makes sense17:07
srichterand not return (x, y)17:07
pcardunebut what's the use of a tuple with one thing in it17:08
pcardune(ok ok, i can see the uses... but still)17:08
srichtermoral: when you get tuple instead of a simple var, look for trailing commas17:09
pcardunewell, that's a new one on my list17:10
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4313:17:28
povbot/svn/commits: Very minor change in ttschema XML representation: use empty <period /> tags rather than open and close tags with nothing in between.17:28
srichterare groups principals in SchoolTool?17:31
srichter(like it is for
mgedminerr, alga says they are17:31
srichterthat's nice :-)17:31
srichterbceause then one can give the manager principal the permissions for the level promotion workflow screens17:33
algaone security issue, so to speak, is the fact that we grant the initial manager user the zope.Manage permission17:33
algaso he can do more than could be granted via our ACL view17:33
algamanage services, see errors in the error servivce, etc17:33
erchacheth1a: are you here?17:51
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4314:18:41
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed typo.18:41
th1aAh, mgedmin.  I started to enter a bug report yesterday and got interrupted.18:41
povbot/svn/commits: * alga committed revision 4315:18:42
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed system error in the ttschemas index when the user was not a manager.  Provided a regression ftest.18:42
algath1a: I'd like to chat about emergency days18:42
algaI see your point that they are a term action18:47
algabut they need to modify timetable schemas in order to make sense18:47
th1aI'm just looking at this from a UI point of view.18:48
th1aIs there a reason they have to be contained with the timetables?18:49
alganot particularly...18:49
th1aOK.  You're just thinking like a programmer ;-)18:49
algait was my inertia after having completed special days :-)18:49
algaI assume you want it fixed before the release, right?18:50
algatimetable schemas need to be modified in order to make sense after the term changed.18:51
algashould I modify all timetable schemas?18:51
th1aOh.. I see.18:52
th1aI wasn't thinking of it that way.18:52
th1aI guess I see why you did it the way you did it now.18:54
algathe problem with my approach is that only one schema gets modified18:54
algaand you cannot repeat the process with other schemsa18:54
algabecause the replacement day is not a non-schoolday anymore18:55
th1aOn the other hand, you can often have cases where only kindergarten is cancelled in an elementary school, for example.18:55
th1aOr just night classes.18:55
th1aHrm.  This is complicated.18:56
algaperhaps looping over all existing schemas is a sane thing to do18:56
algadoes not cover all cases, but is consistent18:57
th1aOK, so in the cases I cited above, you'd need to use a special day for the kindergarten or night school timetables.18:57
th1aIf you're making the day a non-school day, then it should apply to all schemas.18:57
algaI'm not, in fact18:58
algamaking it a non-schoolday would make rotating cycle timetables shift18:58
algaI'm just cancelling all periods for a certain day in the schema18:58
algaand post that schoolwide calendar event, of course18:58
th1aOK.  I misread what you said -- for the other timetables you couldn't currently add the same replacement day.18:59
algaadding a replacement day is different18:59
algait has to be made a non-schoolday, but the schema knows it's a special case and handles it19:00
algait needs to know what day id to apply19:00
th1aRegardless, it still seems most sane to cancel school for all timetables.19:00
algaso, loop over all ttschemas19:00
th1aIf it doesn't fit all cases, someone will let us know sometime in 2007.19:01
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4316:19:02
povbot/svn/commits: Removed Content-Length headers from POST requests in cal.txt and app.txt functional tests.  These are not required and it is a good idea to omit them generally, because people forget to update the size after copy&paste.  Just remember to leave a backslash at the end of the last line so that the newline is not submitted as part of a field.19:02
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4317:19:02
povbot/svn/commits: The case of a rotating timetable cycle with slots defined on a weekly basis used to produce incorrect timetable schemas.  This is now fixed.19:02
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4318:19:06
povbot/svn/commits: Use the transaction module instead of the obsolete get_transaction().19:06
povbot/svn/commits: The funny thing is that get_transaction was not even imported, which led to us finding out that the evil ZODB installs get_transaction as a builtin!19:06
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4319:19:11
povbot/svn/commits: Hopefully fixed pdfURL unit test which failed when reportlab was unavailable.19:11
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4320:19:25
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed an undeterministic order bug in the tests.19:25
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4321:19:31
povbot/svn/commits: Made printer.png an indexed-color PNG to make transparency work on IE.19:31
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4322:19:52
povbot/svn/commits: Ignore log files.19:52
povbot/svn/commits: * alga committed revision 4323:20:02
povbot/svn/commits: Made emergency days be accessible through terms, and affect all timetable schemas.20:03
algath1a|lunch: I changed the emergency days the way we discussed20:04
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mgedmintake a look at
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th1aCool!  What is it?20:10
mgedminit's buildbot20:10
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4324:20:11
povbot/svn/commits: Whitespace cleanup20:11
th1aIt builds and runs tests automatically after each checkin?20:11
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th1aWhy is it an IRC bot?20:14
mgedminso it can complain when somebody breaks tests20:15
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4325:20:22
povbot/svn/commits: Bugfix: weekly timetables with different slots on different days and periods designated by time had incorrect period designations (issue 314).20:22
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mgedminsee ya on Monday20:31
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srichterth1a: the question is: how ready are you to see a README.txt file with a fully working promotion workflow? :-)22:17
th1aI'm moderately ready.22:17
srichterit's coming your way22:18
srichterok, should be there22:20
srichterthe XPDL fiel you can view with JaWE22:21
srichterth1a: did you get the files?22:37
th1aYes.  I'm just taking care of some personal business for a moment.22:38
srichterok, sorry22:39
th1aNo problem.22:39
th1asrichter:  Are the events in the history timestamped?23:13
srichterI had to use ... in the tests because the time changes all the time23:14
th1aAnd it notes who took the action?23:14
srichternot yet23:14
srichterbut that should be no problem23:14
th1aThat would be good.  Otherwise, it looks good.23:15
th1aI'm glad you came up with a simpler implementation.23:16
srichterme too :-)23:16
srichterI understand the WfMC stuff much better now too23:16
srichterit is very well thought of23:17
srichterth1a: what is the initial user for schooltool?23:31
srichterth1a: passwd?23:33
th1asorry... schooltool23:34
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