IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-05-09

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mgedminheh, great lesson about REST:
mgedminsocial calendaring app (free, RSS, iCal):
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* mgedmin sees "New Course" right next under "New group", and declares a holy war on inconsistent capitalization13:58
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mgedminSchoolBell's still contains this bit:14:30
mgedmin                  XXX Preferences view is not implemented yet14:30
mgedminis it true?14:30
mgedminI think not14:30
mgedminthere was a link to 'My preferences' that didn't work14:32
mgedminI disabled it and added an XXX14:32
mgedminbecause at that time there was no preferences view in svn14:32
mgedminnow it would be time to either reenable that link14:32
mgedminor remove it altogether14:32
bskahando we want a link to preferences in places other than on the person?14:33
bskahanthat link is in the red bar on the right side, which seems like a logical place14:33
bskahanI'll take out the link for now14:34
mgedminfine by me14:34
* mgedmin does svn up and gets svn: Unknown hostname ''14:34
bskahannot getting that here14:36
mgedminbtw the same disabled & XXXed link is in schooltool's view_macros.pt14:37
mgedminregarding capitalization, both view_macros-es have a person-detail macro14:37
mgedminwith labels like "Primary email", "Secondary phone", and, suddenly and unexpectedly, "Mailing Address"14:38
mgedmincan you please choose one capitalization style and stick to it?14:38
mgedminwhen we started schoolbell, we chose "Capitalizing just the first word", but I'm all for switching to "Capitalizing Every Significant Word" if that looks better14:39
bskahanlets stick to 'just the first word'.  I'll fix that page14:44
bskahanunless you allready got it with the flaming sword of capitalization consistency14:45
mgedminI just commited a whole bunch of changes to This Style of Capitalization14:46
bskahanignore I said that ...14:46
mgedminwhat do you all think about making terms first-level objects?14:55
mgedminthat would entail removing ISchoolToolApplication.terms and just using app['terms'] as another container of objects, like resources14:56
mgedminin the UI you would have Persons, Groups, Resources, Terms14:56
mgedminTermService would be renamed to TermContainer (which it is)14:56
mgedminwe might also rename TermCalendar to just Term14:57
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bskahanthat sounds more consistent, I'm probably going to do the same thing with Sections and Courses as well14:58
mgedminshould we use zope.View in ST's browser/configure.zcml?15:42
* mgedmin pings alga15:42
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bskahanmgedmin: did you mean where should we use zope.View vs schoolbell.view?17:31
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mgedminah, the difference is that schoolbell.view is not granted to anonymous users, as opposed to zope.View17:59
* mgedmin looks around18:01
th1aAh.  Good morning all.18:01
ignaswhat's on the agenda ?18:01
th1aI was just following the debate on the debian-edu list about Debian vs. Ubuntu.18:01
th1aGot caught up in it.18:02
th1aQuick report on my trip to Spain.18:02
th1aUpdates: Are we on schedule for a release candidate next Tuesday?18:02
th1aResolving any outstanding issues around course and section design.18:03
th1aOK... I'll be sending an email out about the Free Software Congress to the list, but I'll mention a few things.18:03
th1aI did get to spend a morning meeting with administrators and developers from the education department of the Valencian community.18:04
th1aThey currently use a bunch of FoxPro databases installed at all their schools.18:04
th1aWe can download those databases from the web.18:05
th1aAnd they'll send us other documentation about their current requirements and system.18:05
th1aThe whole region is shifting to free software, they've got their own localized distro, etc.18:05
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th1aSo it would make sense for them to migrate over time to a free system for school administration.18:06
th1aIt is a good situation because they've got an aging but stable system in place.18:06
th1aSo they can wait.18:06
th1aThey oversee a ton of schools, so this would be a big, long term project.18:07
th1aHopefully I'll be invited back next year to show them what we've got.18:07
bskahanare the schools system's independent or are they communicating centrally in some way?18:08
th1aThe politicians were enthusiastic.  The developers were friendly but a little quizzical.18:08
th1aThey are now working on getting them to communicate, but at this point it is limited.18:08
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bskahanhow convenient18:09
th1aOK, I'll write more in an email.18:09
th1aOh, one more thing.18:10
th1aMark seems reasonably happy with our progress.18:10
th1aMoreso than in November.18:10
th1aHe gave me the thumbs up to have srichter do some paid work on SchoolTool.18:11
th1aStephan and I have been discussing that over the past few months.18:11
th1aHopefully we'll settle the details this week.18:11
th1aAlso, we're going to pay ReportLab to make a student timetable report for us.18:12
algawhoa :-)18:12
th1aThey've already got a nice timetable widget written for their conference system, so it will be cheap and quick.18:12
th1aOtherwise, we'll be doing the ReportLab stuff ourselves.18:13
th1aIt is just a low hanging report-fruit.18:13
th1aalga:  whoa-which?18:13
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th1aI've had a few things cooking in secret :-)18:15
th1aOK.  How are things coming in Vilnius?18:15
* mgedmin nudges alga18:16
th1aJennifer and I have officially rented an apartment in Vilnius for the month of August, so look out!18:16
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algathe progress was slower than I expected18:17
algafor various reasons we could not do as much st work as we would like18:18
algaalso, porting the timetabling code is taking more than I expected18:18
algaalso, I get to do some work which was not planned -- making ST app use its own different people,  groups, resources18:20
alga(which have timetables in addition to what SB objects have)18:20
algaGintas went to a collegiate programming contest last week :-)18:20
th1aHow'd it go?18:21
algahis team took 10th place out of ~3018:21
th1aSend me the email addresses of teams 1-9 ;-)18:21
gintasah, you have to be a sponsor ;)18:22
th1aI see.  Very clever.18:22
algaBasically, I'm not at all confident of our progress18:23
th1aIs everyone going to be able to focus on SchoolTool this week?18:23
algaI would estimate there is a 50% chance we will have our part of contract done till next tuesday18:24
algaMarius needs one tricky task to do outside of ST work18:24
algaotherwise, we're 100% on ST18:25
th1ajinty:  ayt?18:25
th1aIf POV is a bit late can we push back the release candidate a few days?18:25
th1aWhat would you suggest.18:26
th1aThe 31st is a hard deadline for the final release.18:26
jintyI don't think it's a problem.18:27
algaWhat about Etria though?18:28
jintybut the release is called 'timed' for a reason18:28
bskahanWe'll finish by the 17th18:28
tvonWe'll be okay for next week18:28
th1aWhat else do you guys need to finish?18:29
bskahanchanging the Sections/Courses as discussed on the mailing list18:29
tvoncsv importing and rest for preferences18:29
jintymy personal preference is releasing on time and reducing features...18:29
bskahanwhich makes one of my outstanding tasks easier - REST interface for courses/sections18:30
th1ajinty:  POV's work isn't very feature-driven.  It is sorta one big lump.18:30
th1aPerhaps they can think of bits to split off if necessary.18:30
bskahancsv upload of courses/sections18:31
bskahanI didn't get as much done as planned last week18:31
bskahanquit smoking, killed my productivity (along with my civility, humanity, and love for life)18:32
th1abskahan: Quit smoking _after_ you meet our deadlines.18:32
gintas(not the productivity part though)18:32
bskahangintas: in a few years ...18:32
bskahanth1a: heh, I allready decided that and went to get a pack this morning18:33
th1aI'm a bad influence.18:33
th1aI'm killing my developers.18:33
bskahanbut, either way, I think we're ok for the 17th18:33
gintasbskahan, why did you mention that CSV upload?18:34
th1aPOV had a tougher schedule this time.18:34
bskahangintas: listing things we haven't finished18:34
bskahanth1a: yeah, I had really hoped to be finished by now, but other work has kept Tom busy18:34
algabut please...18:35
algacould you try to do what you do a bit higher quality?..18:35
* bskahan nods18:35
algait's so disconcerting to see stuff like those unwritten tests18:36
algaand broken couses/sections18:36
algawhat is their status btw?18:36
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algaare they in progress, or done?18:36
th1aIt seems like there is agreement about what is to be done, right?18:37
bskahanI'm redoing them today to not subclass Groups, giving them their own Containers18:37
algath1a: I think so18:37
bskahanmy only question is about the URISection18:37
algabskahan: it can be as it is18:37
bskahanalga: I just want to make sure I know what needs to be done to avoid problems18:38
bskahanwith that, is it just a question of documenting the issue, or is there something that should be checked on the relationship creation?18:39
mgedminwhat would you check?18:40
algaOne more thing18:41
gintasbskahan, by the way, are you building that CSV import on the form that has been implemented already?18:41
algare learning and membership18:41
bskahanI think its just something that needs to tbe documented, its the first case of a Role being used in multiple relationships18:41
algacan we drop learning, and just use membership?18:41
algastudents are members of a section18:41
bskahangintas: I'm not sure yet18:41
algateacher is an instructor of a section18:41
th1aI think alga's suggestion would be fine.18:42
bskahanalga: ok18:42
th1aDoes that make it simpler to keep sections as subclasses of groups?18:42
algabut in a separate container18:43
algaor maybe not...18:44
mgedminI would find a separate container clearer18:44
bskahanI think putting things in seperate containers is simpler18:44
mgedminor maybe not...18:44
bskahanseperate container gets a cleaner URI, simple UI, and simpler REST interface18:45
th1aI think separate containers is the way to go.18:45
th1aI don't want sections mixed in with regular groups in the default views.18:46
gintasme neither18:46
gintasyou can delete those special containers easily as it is18:47
ignasusing same containers can obcure RESTive views too ...18:47
bskahanthey won't be, in either case.  But its less work to seperate them in the UI if they're in seperate containers18:47
bskahanwhat are the benefits of keeping a small number of containers?18:48
th1aIt will get confusing at a certain point.18:49
bskahani don't really love app/courses and app/sections since I feel like it should be app/mycourse/sections but since sections apply to multiple courses ...18:51
gintasanother small question18:52
th1aYeah, we've got to use app/sections18:52
gintasI'm not sure who wrote SectionView, but why do we need getters in that class?18:52
bskahangintas: the title property is going away entirely18:53
bskahanin favor of the regular title attribute18:53
gintasI'm talking about getInstructors/getLearners/getCourses18:53
th1abskahan:  What's the title going to be?18:54
gintassame for getSections in CourseView18:54
bskahangintas: because that I looked at GroupView from schoolbell and it had getMembers, iirc18:54
jintyI hate to bring this up again. But what about old schooltool databases? Is there some working upgrade path?18:55
algajinty: not worth the effort, imo18:55
gintasbskahan, it had a filter() call inside so we put it into a method18:55
th1aShould be generations support from SchoolBell, right?18:55
gintasthe ones you wrote are trivial and better done in tal as "context/foo/bar"18:56
algath1a: yes, but not upgrading from st 0.9 to zope 318:56
bskahangintas: /me nods18:56
jintyalga: I agree18:56
th1aCan one upgrade from ST 0.9 to SB 1.0?18:56
mgedminthe ones in GroupView actually *do* something, not just pass an unchanged value from self.context18:57
bskahanth1a: by running a script maybe?18:57
th1abskahan:  Using whatever we've got to go from SB 0.9 to SB 1.0.18:57
algaget *real* people18:58
algaST and SB are different things18:58
th1aalga:  OK.18:58
th1aWell, I feel quite certain that there are no real SchoolTool 0.9 users.18:58
jintyIt was a good idea to steer people to schoolbell18:59
th1aYeah.  I should have been more emphatic about it on the website.18:59
th1aOK.  That's our hour.19:00
th1aAnything else pressing?19:00
th1aOK.  Let's get this together for next Tuesday.19:02
* th1a bangs the virtual gavel.19:02
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mgedminalga, watch:19:45
mgedmin/home/mg/src/schooltool/src/schooltool/tests/ WARNING: TestTimetableException not in test suite19:45
mgedmin/home/mg/src/schooltool/src/schooltool/tests/ WARNING: TestExceptionalTTCalendarEvent not in test suite19:45
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bskahanat what point (time of the RC maybe) do we want to update rosetta for translations?20:24
bskahanI was poking around and noticed the rosetta page is still pointing to ST 0.9 UI branch20:25
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* jinty can't find schooltool on rosetta, just schoolbell.20:38
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th1aCan we update the translations for SchoolBell now?20:49
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bskahanth1a: I think we should update the page now, but since we're changing UI string on a daily basis, it probably makes sense to put a note on the rosetta page that we have new branches coming21:21
bskahanactually starting translations now might be frustrating to translators when tomorrow we change 10 strings21:21
th1aOK.  If things are still changing daily we should just wait a week.21:22
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th1aHi Jeff!21:23
th1aHow was Australia?21:24
jelknerthla: who is this?21:24
th1aTom Hoffman21:24
jelknerthla: great, Tom21:24
bskahanunidentifiable nicknames ....21:24
jelknerI was hoping to talk to you21:24
jelknerAustralia was wonderful21:25
th1aI was just starting an email for the K12OSN list about my trip to the Free Software Congress in Spain last week.21:25
th1aThat was pretty cool, too.21:25
th1aSo what's up?21:25
jelknerwork on CanDo has been proceeding well21:26
th1aAh.  Good.21:26
jelknerand we are beginning to wrap our heads around zope321:26
th1aGreat.  What does CanDo do at this point?21:26
jelknerwell, the zope 2 version permits teachers to track competencies and to post curriculum and students to post portfolios21:27
jelknerwe have a teacher who is using it heavily and likes it a lot21:28
jelknerwe want to get to the point soon where the zope 3 version can do everything the zope 2 version can21:28
bskahanjelkner: have you started on a Z3 version?21:29
th1aCan I download the Zope 2 version?21:29
jelknerand we want to be sure that we are not doing anything that would make it difficult to integrate with school tool21:29
jelknerwe have moved away from using an external database21:29
jelknerwe plan to keep data in the ZODB21:30
jelknerthat's what the zope 2 version does21:30
th1aDo I need Plone for that?21:31
jelknerit is a bit ugly at present, but usable21:31
th1aOK.  Cool.21:31
jelknerthere are no dependencies aside from the basic zope install21:32
jelknertom, you are in baltimore, yes?21:32
th1atvon and bskahan are.21:32
th1aI'm in Providence.21:32
jelknerhere is why i'm asking...21:33
jelknerthe NECC (national educational computing conference) will be in Philadelphia from June 27 to 3021:34
th1aI'll be there.21:34
bskahanI'll be in New Zealand then21:34
jelknerwe will be running the "Free Software Center"21:34
jelknerand I wanted to provide info about school tool21:35
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th1aCan I do a demo?21:35
jelknerperhaps a demo of schoolbell?21:35
jelkneryou bet!21:35
th1ajinx!  buy me a coke.21:35
FarcePestjinx? what's next, swirlies?21:35
th1aVirtual swirlies.21:36
jelknercan you send me a quick email at with your email, snail mail, and  phone?21:36
jelknerwell, back to reading the "Web Component Development with Zope 3" book21:37
jelkneri'll email you as soon as you send me the info21:37
th1aWhere'd you get that?21:37
jelknerit is great21:37
th1aWhy hasn't mine arrived?21:38
jelknerit was written in german21:38
jelknerand the editing of the translation is not good21:38
jelknerbut the presentation is crystal clear21:38
jelknermine only arrived last thursday21:38
th1aAnyhow.  I do have a couple other obligations at NECC.21:39
th1aI'm not precisely sure what they are.  I guess I need to figure that out.21:39
jelknerno problem, we will be there at the Free Software Center21:39
th1aHuh... Amazon things I've gotten my copy as well.21:39
jelkneryou can stop by whenever you have time21:40
th1aYou do have scheduled demos as well, though, right?21:40
jelknerwe haven't gotten that far yet21:40
th1aIf you do, put me down for one.21:40
jelkneri'll put up a wiki over the next few days so we can organize that21:40
jelknerthla:  i got your email.  let me follow up with you that way so that i can cc some of the other folks involved.21:42
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th1aI think someone stole the Zope 3 book off my porch last week.21:50
bskahanits a very hot item21:50
bskahanlike ipods on the subway21:50
th1aDid you see Paris Hilton on Entertainment Tonight carrying a Zope 3 book?21:51
th1aThey've been going like hotcakes ever since.21:51
bskahanno, I'm sure I would have remembered seeing paris hilton carrying a book21:51
tvonI think she could be carrying a unicorn and I wouldnt see it21:52
tvonI'm sure thats just me though21:52
FarcePestif you search google for paris hilton zope, you get a number of hits at, which is apparently zope-driven21:53
FarcePestactually there are several tv stations that come up21:54
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th1aOK... time to try to upgrade to Tiger.23:18
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