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| bska|mobile | is there any reason for the '+' in the groups/+/addSchoolBellGroup.html url? | 16:37 |
|---|---|---|
| mgedmin | + is the zope 3 adding view | 16:39 |
| * mgedmin doesn't like that + too much | 16:39 | |
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| bska|mobile | me either | 16:40 |
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| jinty | is there going to be a meeting sometime soon, or have I been very silly with timezones? | 17:11 |
| bska|mobile | its in 45 minutes | 17:13 |
| bska|mobile | 15:00 UTC | 17:13 |
| jinty | doh! | 17:15 |
| jinty | well, see you then... | 17:15 |
| bska|mobile | ;) | 17:15 |
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| th1a | Good morning, folks. | 18:00 |
| th1a | Afternoon, as well, | 18:01 |
| tvon | howdy | 18:01 |
| mgedmin | good evening, th1a | 18:01 |
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| alga | hello | 18:01 |
| ignas | hi | 18:01 |
| th1a | mgedmin and I will be meeting halfway soon. | 18:01 |
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| th1a | I had trouble coming up with an agenda, because things seem a bit fragmented now. | 18:02 |
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| th1a | So the main priority is to sort out what each of you have been working on and how it is going. | 18:02 |
| th1a | And what you need to discuss with each other. | 18:02 |
| alga | OK | 18:03 |
| th1a | First off, however, let's finalize the release schedule. | 18:03 |
| bska|mobile | hello | 18:03 |
| th1a | Or make sure there are no objections. | 18:03 |
| th1a | It think it is pretty conservative to say: | 18:03 |
| th1a | SchoolTool Calendar rc1 on May 17. | 18:04 |
| th1a | Final on May 31. | 18:04 |
| alga | May 17 is my birthday :-) | 18:04 |
| th1a | I am, however, really going to send out press releases to educational technology sites and magazines, so we'll need to hit it. | 18:04 |
| bska|mobile | I'm comfortable with that | 18:05 |
| jinty | all bugs for rc1 to alga :-) | 18:05 |
| alga | yay! :) | 18:05 |
| th1a | Also, I guess it makes sense to call the release SchoolTool 0.10 | 18:06 |
| jinty | +1 | 18:06 |
| alga | +1 | 18:06 |
| th1a | I mean, we'll call it SchoolTool Calendar on the site, etc. | 18:06 |
| th1a | But it's number will be SchoolTool 0.10. | 18:06 |
| bska|mobile | +1 to calling it Schooltool Calendar and making the package 0.10 | 18:07 |
| th1a | OK, that's settled. | 18:07 |
| th1a | Now, mgedmin: what's up with the repository reorganization? | 18:07 |
| mgedmin | I'm stuck on it | 18:08 |
| mgedmin | a little bit | 18:08 |
| mgedmin | I think I need somebody to pair program with me to push things along | 18:08 |
| mgedmin | I really didn't expect to find a 8-thousand line diff between trunk and the 0.9.x branch | 18:08 |
| alga | I intend to help you once I'm done with my stuff | 18:09 |
| alga | (read: real soon) | 18:09 |
| th1a | What's left to do with REST? | 18:09 |
| jinty | mgedmin: the pathconfig.py stuff, feel free to dump it if you want. | 18:09 |
| alga | Ignas is finishing off the views for relationships | 18:10 |
| alga | I finished the ACL views, but am now working on HTTP error 405 support in Zope 3. | 18:10 |
| gintas | and I'm working on i18n | 18:10 |
| alga | It appears that noone else is using Zope 3 the way we do, as a server for custom HTTP views | 18:11 |
| gintas | i18n is now not far from completion, but there are a few issues that have me stumped | 18:11 |
| th1a | alga: How are our views different? | 18:11 |
| alga | well, zope 3 is mainly used as a server for browser views | 18:12 |
| alga | our RESTive views are not browser views, but plain HTTP | 18:12 |
| alga | they don't have skins, sessions, etc. | 18:12 |
| bska|mobile | alga: is srichter's twisted branch impact what your doing? | 18:12 |
| alga | nope | 18:12 |
| bska|mobile | s/is/does/ | 18:12 |
| alga | I'm using the zope.app.publication.http | 18:13 |
| alga | that's way above the network server level | 18:13 |
| ignas | http://www.prescod.net/rest/mistakes/ | 18:13 |
| ignas | oops | 18:13 |
| ignas | wrogn channel | 18:13 |
| gintas | first problem, the timezones that come from pytz; I suppose that we could either cherry-pick the important ones and mark them for translation, or just copy-paste the whole list; the other problem is error translation. Widget validation errors come from the internals of Zope3. I don't think it's an option to ask to translate the whole Zope 3 ;) | 18:14 |
| gintas | btw, I'll be running off in a few minutes | 18:14 |
| th1a | Well, presumably Zope 3 will be internationalized on its own. | 18:15 |
| alga | good point | 18:15 |
| th1a | If that's the case, will we get the right translations from them? | 18:15 |
| alga | pytz is now part of zope 3 | 18:15 |
| bska|mobile | there's localization of timezone names in i18n | 18:15 |
| gintas | th1a, we probably will | 18:16 |
| th1a | I'd say don't get hung up on the external translations. | 18:16 |
| gintas | thing is there's a lot of translatable strings in Zope, and it's bad to have it as a dependency for complete School* translation | 18:17 |
| gintas | if needed, some translations can be picked by hand, but I'd rather have it automatized and in a single place | 18:18 |
| alga | I don't see it as a problem if country and city names are not translated | 18:19 |
| bska|mobile | the timezone name are localized in zope/i18n/locales/data | 18:19 |
| alga | Europe/Vilnius... | 18:19 |
| th1a | It seems like keeping our own versions of Zope translations would be difficult to keep in sync. | 18:19 |
| bska|mobile | how to sync those up with pytz is tricky | 18:20 |
| th1a | If I understand gintas correctly. | 18:20 |
| gintas | well, I could whip up some scripts to work around | 18:20 |
| gintas | but it's also not quite clear which strings are used in SB | 18:21 |
| gintas | for now I scan zope.schema and Izope.app.form.browser | 18:21 |
| th1a | Which Zope 3 strings? | 18:21 |
| gintas | oops | 18:21 |
| gintas | and I'm not sure if we need form.browser | 18:22 |
| gintas | th1a, yes | 18:22 |
| th1a | I'll be happy if we get our own strings translated. | 18:22 |
| gintas | the error messages that we need translated are in the same modules as some crufts | 18:22 |
| gintas | s/crufts/cruft/ | 18:22 |
| gintas | sorry, got to go | 18:22 |
| alga | over to Etria? | 18:23 |
| alga | what are you guys doing? | 18:23 |
| th1a | OK. gintas: don't make this too complicated. | 18:23 |
| bska|mobile | at the moment I'm learning about REST interface again and working on schooltool features in the schoolbell tree | 18:24 |
| bska|mobile | hoping they migrate over easily | 18:24 |
| alga | bska|mobile: feel free to ask here if you've got any questions | 18:25 |
| bska|mobile | I will soon | 18:25 |
| bska|mobile | trying to figure out the right way to do user preferences over REST today | 18:25 |
| th1a | OK, here's a philosophical question: | 18:26 |
| th1a | Atom will eventually have a REST-ful publishing interface, but it seems to be very much in flux. | 18:26 |
| th1a | Even more so than a few months ago. | 18:27 |
| * bska|mobile nods | 18:27 | |
| th1a | So... the stable (and widely supported) web services interfaces for publishing use XML-RPC. | 18:27 |
| * alga knows nothing about Atom | 18:27 | |
| th1a | So should we use one of those on XML-RPC in this case. | 18:28 |
| th1a | It seems more useful than inventing our own REST methods. | 18:28 |
| bska|mobile | I'd like them to have a REST interface similar to the rest of schoolbell/schooltool for consistency first | 18:28 |
| tvon | Are there any major ones that are not blog oriented? | 18:28 |
| bska|mobile | wiki | 18:28 |
| alga | th1a: so, in essence, you don't believe in REST in favour of XML-RPC? | 18:28 |
| th1a | I do in general. | 18:29 |
| th1a | I'm not making a strong argument here, just throwing it out. | 18:29 |
| alga | IMO they are valid alternatives | 18:29 |
| alga | nothing more or less standard about either of them | 18:29 |
| th1a | I'm just saying in this problem domain, the XML-RPC standards are actually supported by more clients. | 18:30 |
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| alga | the HTTP standards are supported more ;-) | 18:30 |
| bska|mobile | tvon: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/04/14/atomwiki.html | 18:30 |
| th1a | Although tvon has a good point, that the clients that use the XML-RPC standards may be too blog-oriented to be useful for SchoolBell notes anyhow. | 18:30 |
| bska|mobile | I think we're better with internal consistency | 18:31 |
| th1a | OK. | 18:31 |
| th1a | Adding XML-RPC methods would be fairly easy at some point, though, right? | 18:32 |
| mgedmin | yes | 18:32 |
| tvon | I don't think adding xml-rpc support gives us any advantage over using REST if there are no clients anyways | 18:33 |
| alga | but basically it would be making one more set of views, beside browser and REST | 18:33 |
| th1a | What's up with designing the courses/sections. | 18:33 |
| tvon | The only way it would be beneficial is if there were already established clients, which afaik there are not (I could be wrong though) | 18:34 |
| mgedmin | xml-rpc views can be attached to the browser tcp port | 18:34 |
| th1a | tvon: You'd be able to use existing clients, but it might be too clunky, because the client would regard each student, for example, as a weblog. | 18:34 |
| tvon | th1a: I don't think that would work too well though because you'd have to map the students to blog fields | 18:35 |
| bska|mobile | th1a: I've been working on courses/schedules in a schoolbell tree | 18:35 |
| bska|mobile | er., courses/sections | 18:35 |
| alga | get real people ;-) | 18:35 |
| th1a | tvon: Or you might have to manually add each student as a blog before you can post a note. | 18:35 |
| th1a | alga: This is less abstract than it sounds. | 18:36 |
| th1a | The use case is for a teacher or administrator to quickly add a note about a student. | 18:36 |
| th1a | It needs to be as convenient as possible, or it won't happen. | 18:37 |
| alga | web interface is plenty for that task | 18:37 |
| th1a | That's a lot of navigation before you can make the note. | 18:37 |
| alga | OK, then there can be a custom program | 18:37 |
| alga | 10 lines of code | 18:38 |
| th1a | Anyhow, I guess doing a standard SchoolTool REST style interface is sufficient. | 18:38 |
| alga | yes | 18:38 |
| th1a | I relent. | 18:38 |
| alga | it requires a client too :-) | 18:38 |
| th1a | That's my original point -- can we leverage existing clients that use XML-RPC... | 18:39 |
| th1a | Anyhow... | 18:39 |
| th1a | So the course/section work is somewhat bottlenecked by the repository work, correct? | 18:39 |
| * bska|mobile nods | 18:39 | |
| th1a | When is your flight, mgedmin? | 18:39 |
| bska|mobile | none of it belongs in the schoolbell repository | 18:39 |
| th1a | Can we get this sorted out before Python UK? | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | th1a, wednesday | 18:41 |
| th1a | Or am I going to have to do some pair programming with you? | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | I should arrive to Oxford at 20:15 local time | 18:42 |
| alga | If Marius won't do it before he leaves, I'll take on to it | 18:42 |
| th1a | OK. I just don't want it abandoned for the week. | 18:42 |
| th1a | I guess I'll be able to nag mgedmin in person, anyhow. | 18:42 |
| * mgedmin decides to pack some nag-proof clothing | 18:43 | |
| alga | underwear | 18:43 |
| alga | asbestos longjohns should be nagging by themselves :-) | 18:43 |
| th1a | Anything else you guys need to coordinate with each other this week? | 18:44 |
| alga | erm, are there any more features we missed from sb 1.1? | 18:45 |
| th1a | alga: Are you thinking of something in particular? | 18:45 |
| alga | no | 18:45 |
| bska|mobile | we have batch adding for sb 1.1 | 18:46 |
| alga | I just have this feeling that we have missed something | 18:46 |
| bska|mobile | tvon is working on that later this week | 18:46 |
| th1a | Is ignas finishing the REST work? | 18:48 |
| th1a | My history seems to have truncated itself for some reason. | 18:48 |
| ignas | yep i am finishing up REST | 18:48 |
| ignas | doing some unification too | 18:48 |
| ignas | we have some inconsistencies a t the moment ... | 18:49 |
| th1a | What exactly is left to be done. We seem to have been a few days from completion for the past few weeks. | 18:49 |
| ignas | sorry, my bad | 18:49 |
| th1a | I guess the Zope 3 error handling stuff alga mentioned. | 18:49 |
| ignas | relationships are warking already, so only fixing inconsistencies/ virtual hosting support is ledt | 18:49 |
| ignas | s/warking/working | 18:49 |
| th1a | OK. Relationships are in the trunk? | 18:50 |
| alga | th1a: yes, but that is more like Zope 3 work | 18:50 |
| th1a | alga: Right. | 18:50 |
| alga | but we will benefit from that too | 18:50 |
| th1a | What's happening now? The wrong error codes being sent? | 18:50 |
| ignas | th1a, only the unit tested side, i have added functional tests like 15 minutes ago ... | 18:50 |
| alga | basically, you get 500 Internal Server Error if something is wrong | 18:50 |
| th1a | I see. | 18:51 |
| alga | 405 response includes a list of methods that are actually supported | 18:51 |
| th1a | Ah. | 18:51 |
| alga | so it is a matter of introspectability and transparency | 18:51 |
| th1a | OK, that seems like just about everything for today. | 18:52 |
| th1a | I should probably chat with mgedmin for a few minutes about the conference. | 18:52 |
| alga | oh, I have a question | 18:52 |
| th1a | alga: Yes? | 18:52 |
| alga | can I do a talk about SchoolBell on Europython? | 18:52 |
| th1a | Sure! | 18:53 |
| alga | thanks | 18:53 |
| th1a | It isn't too late? | 18:53 |
| alga | I don't think so | 18:53 |
| th1a | Cool. | 18:53 |
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| bska|mobile | gavel? | 18:57 |
| * th1a bangs the gavel. | 18:57 | |
| bska|mobile | lovely | 18:57 |
| mgedmin | europython accepts talks until may 1 | 18:58 |
| alga | our tax inspection accepts statements until may 2, too | 18:58 |
| alga | double deadline for creative work :-) | 18:58 |
| th1a | mgedmin: I guess we'll have plenty of time to discuss the presentation face to face, since we aren't going until Saturday morning. | 18:59 |
| th1a | alga: our taxes were due on the 15th. | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | yes | 18:59 |
| th1a | But think about talking a bit about the iCalendar package. | 18:59 |
| th1a | mgedmin: Did you get a room from the conference? | 19:01 |
| mgedmin | yes, at the eastgate hotel | 19:04 |
| th1a | Did you have to pay for it? | 19:04 |
| mgedmin | nobody asked me to so far | 19:04 |
| th1a | :-) | 19:04 |
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| th1a | mgedmin: I don't think I have your cell phone number. | 19:05 |
| mgedmin | th1a, +370 685 04774 | 19:05 |
| * th1a wonders if he can get some kind of prepaid mobile phone account in the UK. | 19:06 | |
| alga | there definitely is | 19:07 |
| th1a | I'll have to try that. | 19:07 |
| alga | errr, | 19:07 |
| Aiste | at least a few different kinds | 19:07 |
| alga | and you'll have that spiffy python-enabled nokia handset? | 19:08 |
| th1a | and one for mgedmin. | 19:08 |
| th1a | Notwithstanding the Python, it's kind of an absurd phone. | 19:08 |
| th1a | It's really a handheld game that you can talk into the side of. | 19:08 |
| Aiste | :)) | 19:09 |
| th1a | Feels pretty silly. | 19:09 |
| Aiste | one of the reasons why I chose Sony-Ericsson | 19:09 |
| th1a | Actually, it is also nice for writing applications, because it is relatively big and easy to hold. | 19:10 |
| * mgedmin looks at http://www.flickr.com/photos/14049009@N00/9048338/ | 19:10 | |
| bska|mobile | its the sidetalking phone right? | 19:12 |
| th1a | It is the sidetalking phone. | 19:12 |
| th1a | The original version. | 19:12 |
| th1a | I think the updated one doesn't look as silly when you talk into it. | 19:12 |
| th1a | Actually, I need to go buy a game to play on it during the trip. | 19:12 |
| Aiste | buy??? | 19:13 |
| Aiste | Crazy people | 19:13 |
| th1a | ? | 19:13 |
| th1a | I don't think there's much GNU for NGage. | 19:14 |
| ignas | well, one can allways write a game | 19:14 |
| ignas | whatr languages the gadget supports ? | 19:14 |
| ignas | :) | 19:14 |
| Aiste | heh, sony ericsson gives you a bunch of games for free | 19:14 |
| Aiste | to download | 19:14 |
| bska|mobile | you could write a game on the way there, to play on the way back | 19:14 |
| th1a | Well, I got the phone for free, so I can't complain. | 19:15 |
| Aiste | :) | 19:15 |
| th1a | It takes a long time to type code directly into the phone. | 19:15 |
| th1a | It is possible, however. | 19:15 |
| mgedmin | you can copy files to it over bluetooth | 19:15 |
| mgedmin | ? | 19:15 |
| th1a | If I had my computer on, I'd be watching a movie. | 19:15 |
| th1a | Assuming I'm stuck in an airport, which is the use case in question. | 19:16 |
| th1a | ignas: Other than Python, you've got j2me and C++, iirc. | 19:17 |
| th1a | But you can do games in Python. | 19:17 |
| th1a | I think they're trying to get PyGame running. | 19:17 |
| mgedmin | you won't have your computer? | 19:17 |
| th1a | And I saw a demo of PyOpenGL on a phone. | 19:17 |
| th1a | I'll have my computer! | 19:17 |
| th1a | I'm just saying that I want a game to play on my phone so I won't have to use my computer when I'm actually in the act of traveling. | 19:18 |
| mgedmin | e-books are nice | 19:19 |
| Aiste | very :) | 19:21 |
| Aiste | up to the point of not letting you sleep at night | 19:22 |
| th1a | Reading them on your phone? | 19:22 |
| mgedmin | I have a palm | 19:22 |
| mgedmin | but I don't see why a phone wouldn't work | 19:22 |
| Aiste | on a pda | 19:22 |
| mgedmin | if it is supposed to be a phone-pda combo | 19:23 |
| th1a | This is actually a big question for me in terms of educational technology. | 19:23 |
| Aiste | I think the screen is still not beg enough | 19:23 |
| Aiste | to read a book comfortably, or is it? | 19:23 |
| Aiste | s/beg/big/ | 19:23 |
| th1a | Would it be reasonable to expect students to use textbooks on a pda. | 19:23 |
| th1a | I say, 'no.' | 19:23 |
| mgedmin | 55mm by 55mm is enough | 19:23 |
| Aiste | there is a different question -- would it be acceptable for students to use their pda's or phones for reading texbooks in class? | 19:24 |
| mgedmin | for fiction -- the screen is not big enough if you need diagrams or code examples | 19:24 |
| th1a | mgedmin: I agree. | 19:24 |
| mgedmin | oops, I wanted to say 550 by 550 mm | 19:24 |
| th1a | Aiste: Part of the equation is whether or not you can pay for the technology by eliminating paper texts. | 19:25 |
| mgedmin | no, I didn't | 19:25 |
| mgedmin | eek, I don't know how big a mm is any more! | 19:25 |
| Aiste | duh, I see horses everywhere, I misread th1a as saying equitation :)) | 19:25 |
| mgedmin | a pda is more portable than a paper book | 19:25 |
| Aiste | how much does a cheap pda cost nowadays? | 19:26 |
| tvon | taking Geometry or Geography with a pda would stink | 19:26 |
| mgedmin | but I do not think that's important in education | 19:26 |
| th1a | Microsoft is probably going to promote a mini-Tablet PC that is probably the right size. | 19:26 |
| Aiste | and do students have to buy their own books in the states? | 19:26 |
| th1a | Aiste: No. | 19:26 |
| th1a | Not until college. | 19:26 |
| Aiste | ah, good for them | 19:26 |
| Aiste | I was actually thinking colledge and university :) | 19:27 |
| Aiste | not secondary school | 19:27 |
| tvon | it would be funny to see 'my battery died' replace 'the dog ate it' though | 19:27 |
| Aiste | :))) | 19:27 |
| th1a | My floppy died. | 19:27 |
| tvon | though a dog is more likely to eat a pda than a sheet of paper I think :) | 19:27 |
| th1a | Ask Winston. | 19:28 |
| tvon | seriously | 19:28 |
| tvon | he'd swallow it whole :) | 19:28 |
| mgedmin | the dog ate my usb key | 19:29 |
| mgedmin | a virus ate my homework | 19:29 |
| Aiste | I accindetaly dropped a magnet on my pda | 19:29 |
| th1a | Aiste: That's a good one. | 19:29 |
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| th1a | Aha, here are some free NGage games. | 21:41 |
| Aiste | :) | 21:45 |
| mgedmin | does SDL support Series 60 phones? | 21:55 |
| mgedmin | s/SDL/pygame/ actually | 21:55 |
| th1a | I don't know. I remember it coming up in the presentation. | 21:56 |
| th1a | There's going to be a presentation at Python UK, too. | 21:56 |
| th1a | I think someone's working on it. | 21:57 |
| th1a | But I may be imagining that. | 21:57 |
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| mgedmin | subversion won't let me commit anything into my branch | 22:21 |
| mgedmin | some nonsense about 'source url is from a different repository' | 22:21 |
| mgedmin | waah | 22:21 |
| mgedmin | enough, I'll fight with it tomorrow, when I'm fresh | 22:21 |
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