IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-04-18

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bska|mobileis there any reason for the '+' in the groups/+/addSchoolBellGroup.html url?16:37
mgedmin+ is the zope 3 adding view16:39
* mgedmin doesn't like that + too much16:39
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bska|mobileme either16:40
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jintyis there going to be a meeting sometime soon, or have I been very silly with timezones?17:11
bska|mobileits in 45 minutes17:13
bska|mobile15:00 UTC17:13
jintywell, see you then...17:15
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th1aGood morning, folks.18:00
th1aAfternoon, as well,18:01
mgedmingood evening, th1a18:01
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th1amgedmin and I will be meeting halfway soon.18:01
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th1aI had trouble coming up with an agenda, because things seem a bit fragmented now.18:02
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th1aSo the main priority is to sort out what each of you have been working on and how it is going.18:02
th1aAnd what you need to discuss with each other.18:02
th1aFirst off, however, let's finalize the release schedule.18:03
th1aOr make sure there are no objections.18:03
th1aIt think it is pretty conservative to say:18:03
th1aSchoolTool Calendar rc1 on May 17.18:04
th1aFinal on May 31.18:04
algaMay 17 is my birthday :-)18:04
th1aI am, however, really going to send out press releases to educational technology sites and magazines, so we'll need to hit it.18:04
bska|mobileI'm comfortable with that18:05
jintyall bugs for rc1 to alga :-)18:05
algayay! :)18:05
th1aAlso, I guess it makes sense to call the release SchoolTool 0.1018:06
th1aI mean, we'll call it SchoolTool Calendar on the site, etc.18:06
th1aBut it's number will be SchoolTool 0.10.18:06
bska|mobile+1 to calling it Schooltool Calendar and making the package 0.1018:07
th1aOK, that's settled.18:07
th1aNow, mgedmin: what's up with the repository reorganization?18:07
mgedminI'm stuck on it18:08
mgedmina little bit18:08
mgedminI think I need somebody to pair program with me to push things along18:08
mgedminI really didn't expect to find a 8-thousand line diff between trunk and the 0.9.x branch18:08
algaI intend to help you once I'm done with my stuff18:09
alga(read: real soon)18:09
th1aWhat's left to do with REST?18:09
jintymgedmin: the stuff, feel free to dump it if you want.18:09
algaIgnas is finishing off the views for relationships18:10
algaI finished the ACL views, but am now working on HTTP error 405 support in Zope 3.18:10
gintasand I'm working on i18n18:10
algaIt appears that noone else is using Zope 3 the way we do, as a server for custom HTTP views18:11
gintasi18n is now not far from completion, but there are a few issues that have me stumped18:11
th1aalga:  How are our views different?18:11
algawell, zope 3 is mainly used as a server for browser views18:12
algaour RESTive views are not browser views, but plain HTTP18:12
algathey don't have skins, sessions, etc.18:12
bska|mobilealga: is srichter's twisted branch impact what your doing?18:12
algaI'm using the
algathat's way above the network server level18:13
ignaswrogn channel18:13
gintasfirst problem, the timezones that come from pytz; I suppose that we could either cherry-pick the important ones and mark them for translation, or just copy-paste the whole list; the other problem is error translation. Widget validation errors come from the internals of Zope3. I don't think it's an option to ask to translate the whole Zope 3 ;)18:14
gintasbtw, I'll be running off in a few minutes18:14
th1aWell, presumably Zope 3 will be internationalized on its own.18:15
algagood point18:15
th1aIf that's the case, will we get the right translations from them?18:15
algapytz is now part of zope 318:15
bska|mobilethere's localization of timezone names in i18n18:15
gintasth1a, we probably will18:16
th1aI'd say don't get hung up on the external translations.18:16
gintasthing is there's a lot of translatable strings in Zope, and it's bad to have it as a dependency for complete School* translation18:17
gintasif needed, some translations can be picked by hand, but I'd rather have it automatized and in a single place18:18
algaI don't see it as a problem if country and city names are not translated18:19
bska|mobilethe timezone name are localized in zope/i18n/locales/data18:19
th1aIt seems like keeping our own versions of Zope translations would be difficult to keep in sync.18:19
bska|mobilehow to sync those up with pytz is tricky18:20
th1aIf I understand gintas correctly.18:20
gintaswell, I could whip up some scripts to work around18:20
gintasbut it's also not quite clear which strings are used in SB18:21
gintasfor now I scan zope.schema and
th1aWhich Zope 3 strings?18:21
gintasand I'm not sure if we need form.browser18:22
gintasth1a, yes18:22
th1aI'll be happy if we get our own strings translated.18:22
gintasthe error messages that we need translated are in the same modules as some crufts18:22
gintassorry, got to go18:22
algaover to Etria?18:23
algawhat are you guys doing?18:23
th1aOK.  gintas:  don't make this too complicated.18:23
bska|mobileat the moment I'm learning about REST interface again and working on schooltool features in the schoolbell tree18:24
bska|mobilehoping they migrate over easily18:24
algabska|mobile: feel free to ask here if you've got any questions18:25
bska|mobileI will soon18:25
bska|mobiletrying to figure out the right way to do user preferences over REST today18:25
th1aOK, here's a philosophical question:18:26
th1aAtom will eventually have a REST-ful publishing interface, but it seems to be very much in flux.18:26
th1aEven more so than a few months ago.18:27
* bska|mobile nods18:27
th1aSo... the stable (and widely supported) web services interfaces for publishing use XML-RPC.18:27
* alga knows nothing about Atom18:27
th1aSo should we use one of those on XML-RPC in this case.18:28
th1aIt seems more useful than inventing our own REST methods.18:28
bska|mobileI'd like them to have a REST interface similar to the rest of schoolbell/schooltool for consistency first18:28
tvonAre there any major ones that are not blog oriented?18:28
algath1a: so, in essence, you don't believe in REST in favour of XML-RPC?18:28
th1aI do in general.18:29
th1aI'm not making a strong argument here, just throwing it out.18:29
algaIMO they are valid alternatives18:29
alganothing more or less standard about either of them18:29
th1aI'm just saying in this problem domain, the XML-RPC standards are actually supported by more clients.18:30
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algathe HTTP standards are supported more ;-)18:30
th1aAlthough tvon has a good point, that the clients that use the XML-RPC standards may be too blog-oriented to be useful for SchoolBell notes anyhow.18:30
bska|mobileI think we're better with internal consistency18:31
th1aAdding XML-RPC methods would be fairly easy at some point, though, right?18:32
tvonI don't think adding xml-rpc support gives us any advantage over using REST if there are no clients anyways18:33
algabut basically it would be making one more set of views, beside browser and REST18:33
th1aWhat's up with designing the courses/sections.18:33
tvonThe only way it would be beneficial is if there were already established clients, which afaik there are not (I could be wrong though)18:34
mgedminxml-rpc views can be attached to the browser tcp port18:34
th1atvon:  You'd be able to use existing clients, but it might be too clunky, because the client would regard each student, for example, as a weblog.18:34
tvonth1a: I don't think that would work too well though because you'd have to map the students to blog fields18:35
bska|mobileth1a: I've been working on courses/schedules in a schoolbell tree18:35
bska|mobileer., courses/sections18:35
algaget real people ;-)18:35
th1atvon:  Or you might have to manually add each student as a blog before you can post a note.18:35
th1aalga:  This is less abstract than it sounds.18:36
th1aThe use case is for a teacher or administrator to quickly add a note about a student.18:36
th1aIt needs to be as convenient as possible, or it won't happen.18:37
algaweb interface is plenty for that task18:37
th1aThat's a lot of navigation before you can make the note.18:37
algaOK, then there can be a custom program18:37
alga10 lines of code18:38
th1aAnyhow, I guess doing a standard SchoolTool REST style interface is sufficient.18:38
th1aI relent.18:38
algait requires a client too :-)18:38
th1aThat's my original point -- can we leverage existing clients that use XML-RPC...18:39
th1aSo the course/section work is somewhat bottlenecked by the repository work, correct?18:39
* bska|mobile nods18:39
th1aWhen is your flight, mgedmin?18:39
bska|mobilenone of it belongs in the schoolbell repository18:39
th1aCan we get this sorted out before Python UK?18:41
mgedminth1a, wednesday18:41
th1aOr am I going to have to do some pair programming with you?18:41
mgedminI should arrive to Oxford at 20:15 local time18:42
algaIf Marius won't do it before he leaves, I'll take on to it18:42
th1aOK.  I just don't want it abandoned for the week.18:42
th1aI guess I'll be able to nag mgedmin in person, anyhow.18:42
* mgedmin decides to pack some nag-proof clothing18:43
algaasbestos longjohns should be nagging by themselves :-)18:43
th1aAnything else you guys need to coordinate with each other this week?18:44
algaerm, are there any more features we missed from sb 1.1?18:45
th1aalga:  Are you thinking of something in particular?18:45
bska|mobilewe have batch adding for sb 1.118:46
algaI just have this feeling that we have missed something18:46
bska|mobiletvon is working on that later this week18:46
th1aIs ignas finishing the REST work?18:48
th1aMy history seems to have truncated itself for some reason.18:48
ignasyep i am finishing up REST18:48
ignasdoing some unification too18:48
ignaswe have some inconsistencies a t the moment ...18:49
th1aWhat exactly is left to be done.  We seem to have been a few days from completion for the past few weeks.18:49
ignassorry, my bad18:49
th1aI guess the Zope 3 error handling stuff alga mentioned.18:49
ignasrelationships are warking already, so only fixing inconsistencies/ virtual hosting support is ledt18:49
th1aOK.  Relationships are in the trunk?18:50
algath1a: yes, but that is more like Zope 3 work18:50
th1aalga:  Right.18:50
algabut we will benefit from that too18:50
th1aWhat's happening now?  The wrong error codes being sent?18:50
ignasth1a, only the unit tested side, i have added functional tests like 15 minutes ago ...18:50
algabasically, you get 500 Internal Server Error if something is wrong18:50
th1aI see.18:51
alga405 response includes a list of methods that are actually supported18:51
algaso it is a matter of introspectability and transparency18:51
th1aOK,  that seems like just about everything for today.18:52
th1aI should probably chat with mgedmin for a few minutes about the conference.18:52
algaoh, I have a question18:52
th1aalga:  Yes?18:52
algacan I do a talk about SchoolBell on Europython?18:52
th1aIt isn't too late?18:53
algaI don't think so18:53
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* th1a bangs the gavel.18:57
mgedmineuropython accepts talks until may 118:58
algaour tax inspection accepts statements until may 2, too18:58
algadouble deadline for creative work :-)18:58
th1amgedmin:  I guess we'll have plenty of time to discuss the presentation face to face, since we aren't going until Saturday morning.18:59
th1aalga:  our taxes were due on the 15th.18:59
th1aBut think about talking a bit about the iCalendar package.18:59
th1amgedmin:  Did you get a room from the conference?19:01
mgedminyes, at the eastgate hotel19:04
th1aDid you have to pay for it?19:04
mgedminnobody asked me to so far19:04
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th1amgedmin:  I don't think I have your cell phone number.19:05
mgedminth1a, +370 685 0477419:05
* th1a wonders if he can get some kind of prepaid mobile phone account in the UK.19:06
algathere definitely is19:07
th1aI'll have to try that.19:07
Aisteat least a few different kinds19:07
algaand you'll have that spiffy python-enabled nokia handset?19:08
th1aand one for mgedmin.19:08
th1aNotwithstanding the Python, it's kind of an absurd phone.19:08
th1aIt's really a handheld game that you can talk into the side of.19:08
th1aFeels pretty silly.19:09
Aisteone of the reasons why I chose Sony-Ericsson19:09
th1aActually, it is also nice for writing applications, because it is relatively big and easy to hold.19:10
* mgedmin looks at
bska|mobileits the sidetalking phone right?19:12
th1aIt is the sidetalking phone.19:12
th1aThe original version.19:12
th1aI think the updated one doesn't look as silly when you talk into it.19:12
th1aActually, I need to go buy a game to play on it during the trip.19:12
AisteCrazy people19:13
th1aI don't think there's much GNU for NGage.19:14
ignaswell, one can allways write a game19:14
ignaswhatr languages the gadget supports ?19:14
Aisteheh, sony ericsson gives you a bunch of games for free19:14
Aisteto download19:14
bska|mobileyou could write a game on the way there, to play on the way back19:14
th1aWell, I got the phone for free, so I can't complain.19:15
th1aIt takes a long time to type code directly into the phone.19:15
th1aIt is possible, however.19:15
mgedminyou can copy files to it over bluetooth19:15
th1aIf I had my computer on, I'd be watching a movie.19:15
th1aAssuming I'm stuck in an airport, which is the use case in question.19:16
th1aignas:  Other than Python, you've got j2me and C++, iirc.19:17
th1aBut you can do games in Python.19:17
th1aI think they're trying to get PyGame running.19:17
mgedminyou won't have your computer?19:17
th1aAnd I saw a demo of PyOpenGL on a phone.19:17
th1aI'll have my computer!19:17
th1aI'm just saying that I want a game to play on my phone so I won't have to use my computer when I'm actually in the act of traveling.19:18
mgedmine-books are nice19:19
Aistevery :)19:21
Aisteup to the point of not letting you sleep at night19:22
th1aReading them on your phone?19:22
mgedminI have a palm19:22
mgedminbut I don't see why a phone wouldn't work19:22
Aisteon a pda19:22
mgedminif it is supposed to be a phone-pda combo19:23
th1aThis is actually a big question for me in terms of educational technology.19:23
AisteI think the screen is still not beg enough19:23
Aisteto read a book comfortably, or is it?19:23
th1aWould it be reasonable to expect students to use textbooks on a pda.19:23
th1aI say, 'no.'19:23
mgedmin55mm by 55mm is enough19:23
Aistethere is a different question -- would it be acceptable for students to use their pda's or phones for reading texbooks in class?19:24
mgedminfor fiction -- the screen is not big enough if you need diagrams or code examples19:24
th1amgedmin:  I agree.19:24
mgedminoops, I wanted to say 550 by 550 mm19:24
th1aAiste:  Part of the equation is whether or not you can pay for the technology by eliminating paper texts.19:25
mgedminno, I didn't19:25
mgedmineek, I don't know how big a mm is any more!19:25
Aisteduh, I see horses everywhere, I misread th1a as saying equitation :))19:25
mgedmina pda is more portable than a paper book19:25
Aistehow much does a cheap pda cost nowadays?19:26
tvontaking Geometry or Geography with a pda would stink19:26
mgedminbut I do not think that's important in education19:26
th1aMicrosoft is probably going to promote a mini-Tablet PC that is probably the right size.19:26
Aisteand do students have to buy their own books in the states?19:26
th1aAiste:  No.19:26
th1aNot until college.19:26
Aisteah, good for them19:26
AisteI was actually thinking colledge and university :)19:27
Aistenot secondary school19:27
tvonit would be funny to see 'my battery died' replace 'the dog ate it' though19:27
th1aMy floppy died.19:27
tvonthough a dog is more likely to eat a pda than a sheet of paper I think :)19:27
th1aAsk Winston.19:28
tvonhe'd swallow it whole :)19:28
mgedminthe dog ate my usb key19:29
mgedmina virus ate my homework19:29
AisteI accindetaly dropped a magnet on my pda19:29
th1aAiste:  That's a good one.19:29
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th1aAha, here are some free NGage games.21:41
mgedmindoes SDL support Series 60 phones?21:55
mgedmins/SDL/pygame/ actually21:55
th1aI don't know.  I remember it coming up in the presentation.21:56
th1aThere's going to be a presentation at Python UK, too.21:56
th1aI think someone's working on it.21:57
th1aBut I may be imagining that.21:57
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mgedminsubversion won't let me commit anything into my branch22:21
mgedminsome nonsense about 'source url is from a different repository'22:21
mgedminenough, I'll fight with it tomorrow, when I'm fresh22:21
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