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| th1a | hi yvl, aelkner_, replaceafill, menesis. | 16:30 |
|---|---|---|
| aelkner_ | morning | 16:31 |
| replaceafill | good morning/afternoon | 16:31 |
| menesis | hi | 16:31 |
| yvl | good morning guys | 16:32 |
| th1a | How is Portugal, yvl? | 16:32 |
| yvl | great, thanks :) | 16:32 |
| th1a | Give us a report. | 16:32 |
| yvl | sure :) | 16:33 |
| yvl | we just made a first pass through items Helder sent you before | 16:33 |
| yvl | so I'll be looking at the patches this evening | 16:33 |
| yvl | and will help set up the "app" egg for CL | 16:34 |
| yvl | also, we started talking about ST-Moodle integration | 16:34 |
| yvl | (also LAMS) | 16:34 |
| yvl | on Gradebook and Calendaring levels | 16:34 |
| yvl | they will be making the plugins that export the data public | 16:35 |
| th1a | Do they have a strong feeling about how to handle the Moodle side? | 16:35 |
| yvl | yes | 16:35 |
| yvl | we were also talking about generic / their impl. specific stuff | 16:35 |
| yvl | in the sense that I'd like to have a generic one ;) | 16:36 |
| yvl | in the end | 16:36 |
| yvl | so it seems that it makes sense to me help them with the dummy hooks for the calendar and activity sources | 16:36 |
| th1a | Sure. | 16:36 |
| yvl | this evening I'll look through their patches closer | 16:37 |
| yvl | so that will be also a big hunk | 16:37 |
| yvl | they want to move to the clearer implementation that gives less headache in the future | 16:37 |
| yvl | so.. some patching, but more plugin-like | 16:37 |
| yvl | also - SSO | 16:37 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:37 |
| yvl | (but their SSO ) | 16:38 |
| th1a | ofc | 16:38 |
| yvl | Helder should write you about UI improvements this week | 16:38 |
| th1a | Are they generally happy with flourish? | 16:39 |
| yvl | yes | 16:39 |
| yvl | "a big improvement" | 16:39 |
| th1a | Indeed. | 16:39 |
| yvl | there were basically few places that need further work | 16:39 |
| yvl | for example, they'd like to be able to navigate to sections from the courses | 16:40 |
| th1a | Yes, I'd say that was an oversight on our part. | 16:40 |
| yvl | and obviously some of the relationship views that reload and jump don't make adding feasible in many cases | 16:40 |
| yvl | well, Helder will sum everything up better | 16:41 |
| yvl | but in general, very positive reception | 16:41 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:41 |
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| yvl | oh, one of the things that we discussed a little is the same the Philippines project had | 16:42 |
| th1a | We're due for a thorough re-nitpicking. | 16:42 |
| yvl | a reasonable way to change app preferences and school name and such | 16:42 |
| yvl | well, that's it in a nutshell | 16:43 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:43 |
| th1a | Thanks yvl. | 16:43 |
| th1a | aelkner? | 16:44 |
| aelkner_ | ok, i added title to the Node objects and fixed all the node views and the importer as a result | 16:44 |
| * yvl read your discussion btw | 16:44 | |
| yvl | +1 on adding title | 16:45 |
| aelkner_ | cool | 16:45 |
| aelkner_ | luckily, nobody had any node data loaded, so ony i had to reimport to get the titles set up | 16:45 |
| aelkner_ | i added the skillssets to the node table and node.pt | 16:45 |
| aelkner_ | i finally got my Courses and FlatSectionsTable sheet import/export merged into trunk | 16:46 |
| aelkner_ | also, the change to the reportLink directive to make file_type optional | 16:46 |
| aelkner_ | and not render a modal link, but instead render a direct link | 16:47 |
| aelkner_ | i'm ready to discuss more user-friendly composite view for adding layers/nodes/skillsets after the meeting | 16:47 |
| aelkner_ | that's it for me | 16:47 |
| th1a | Here's the question about node ID. | 16:48 |
| th1a | Node ID tends to be contextual to the particular document. | 16:49 |
| th1a | Well skillset too... | 16:49 |
| th1a | Let's start with skillset. | 16:49 |
| aelkner_ | nodes have no id | 16:49 |
| th1a | So the skills in a set are sometimes numbered. | 16:49 |
| aelkner_ | only skills | 16:49 |
| th1a | Yes aelkner_, we're discussing what needs to be done. | 16:49 |
| th1a | Can skills be part of multiple skillsets? | 16:50 |
| aelkner_ | no | 16:50 |
| aelkner_ | they are contained, that's all | 16:50 |
| aelkner_ | no relationship allowing one to many | 16:50 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:51 |
| replaceafill | that's why they have equivalents, right? | 16:51 |
| yvl | several nodes in theory can share a single skillset | 16:51 |
| th1a | Nodes could have ID's, but the problem is that they might have different id's (numbers basically) depending on which context you're looking at. | 16:51 |
| yvl | but skills are unique to the skillset | 16:51 |
| aelkner_ | and one node can point to many skillsets | 16:51 |
| yvl | yes, several nodes in theory can share a single skillset | 16:52 |
| yvl | why would you need IDs though? | 16:52 |
| th1a | You just will have some documents that are hierarchical and skills are refered to with essentially a path of ID's. | 16:53 |
| th1a | En.1.A.(b) | 16:53 |
| th1a | So we can either say "close enough" and just give nodes optional ID's. | 16:54 |
| yvl | you mean... like labels? | 16:54 |
| th1a | Or, we can let containing nodes assign ID's to their contents. | 16:54 |
| yvl | or like IDs? | 16:54 |
| th1a | But that might get crazy. | 16:54 |
| th1a | From the user point of view, they are ID's. | 16:54 |
| th1a | Perhaps not to the programmer. ;-) | 16:55 |
| yvl | difference is: | 16:55 |
| aelkner_ | well, we have the label attribute for their IDs | 16:55 |
| th1a | Calling them labels is probably clearer to you. | 16:55 |
| yvl | label is intended to be used "one way" - for display | 16:55 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:55 |
| yvl | ID is "two way" - both for display and retrieval | 16:55 |
| th1a | LEbel. | 16:55 |
| th1a | Label. | 16:55 |
| yvl | they could work as IDs, in importers | 16:56 |
| * yvl is not against IDs, just wanted to hear more from th1a :) | 16:56 | |
| aelkner_ | skills have an ID column in the inporter | 16:56 |
| th1a | Skills are a different matter, because they don't have the weird multiple container/label case. | 16:57 |
| yvl | yes | 16:57 |
| th1a | I guess the question is if there is an obvious/sane way to give nodes labels based on their parent. | 16:57 |
| th1a | And if the answer is "no," we'll just give them an optional label and move on. | 16:57 |
| aelkner_ | why would nodes need labels? | 16:58 |
| aelkner_ | they don | 16:58 |
| aelkner_ | they don't appear in the gradebook | 16:58 |
| aelkner_ | i know they appear in the requirements document, but those are skill labels | 16:59 |
| th1a | aelkner_, I explained above -- sometimes in these documents people describe a skill based on its path. | 16:59 |
| aelkner_ | perhaps you could explain what that means | 16:59 |
| th1a | Which then requires that nodes have a label. | 16:59 |
| yvl | ICT, Admin, Comp.1.A. | 16:59 |
| yvl | three nodes, one line | 16:59 |
| th1a | LIke English Writing Persuasive Essay. | 16:59 |
| th1a | Or En.2.A | 17:00 |
| th1a | Believe me, I've done this in real life. | 17:00 |
| yvl | :) | 17:00 |
| th1a | My point is that from one year to the next, the "Writing" node might go from "2" to "3" in the skills tree. | 17:02 |
| th1a | So we can just say "whatever" and not really worry about that case (make a new node), | 17:02 |
| yvl | +! | 17:02 |
| yvl | +1 :D | 17:03 |
| th1a | Or perhaps in the next 5 minutes, one of you might say "Oh yes, I know how we can handle that easily." | 17:03 |
| th1a | If not, we'll just screw it. | 17:03 |
| th1a | And give nodes optional labels. | 17:03 |
| aelkner_ | i'm sure i could handle it if i only could see what people mean by all of this | 17:03 |
| aelkner_ | it wold help to have a small example test file with some nodes, layes, skilllsets and skllls | 17:04 |
| th1a | aelkner_ needs and example of skills that he can hold in his mind. | 17:04 |
| yvl | hmm | 17:04 |
| aelkner_ | yes, i don't think in intuitive, etherial ways, i'm a sensate | 17:04 |
| yvl | tell you what | 17:04 |
| th1a | It would probably be better if aelkner_ would make one up himself. | 17:04 |
| yvl | I can send replaceafill a nice download of all CTE skills :) | 17:04 |
| th1a | I mean, we've got examples. | 17:04 |
| aelkner_ | but i can't if i can't see what there is to make up | 17:04 |
| yvl | if he has time, he can populate the XLS files | 17:05 |
| yvl | and we can then build a huge D B | 17:05 |
| replaceafill | yvl, sure :) | 17:05 |
| aelkner_ | if the intuitive can see it, they should make up a doc for the sensates | 17:05 |
| th1a | Why don't you make a set of piano playing skills. | 17:05 |
| th1a | Seriously, I would be happy for you to spend a couple hours on that. | 17:05 |
| aelkner_ | making skillsets and skills is easy, already clearly defined | 17:06 |
| aelkner_ | what's the point of that? | 17:06 |
| yvl | (and I think trying to fit the CTE thing early on is a good smoke test for our data model) | 17:06 |
| aelkner_ | yes, CTE is key for the flexibility of our model | 17:06 |
| th1a | The CTE thing is way, way, way, way more complicated and fucked up than anything else, which is a major reason aelkner_ is confused. | 17:07 |
| aelkner_ | yeah, but once the example is lad out, the confusion disappears | 17:07 |
| th1a | The CTE skills tree is COMPLETELY FUCKED SIDEWAYS. | 17:07 |
| replaceafill | :D | 17:07 |
| aelkner_ | if the example is so hard to write, then i would argue that the intuition is incorrect | 17:07 |
| th1a | The example is not hard to write, that's the point. | 17:07 |
| th1a | In every other case it is just a hierarchy. | 17:08 |
| yvl | th1a, could you please write an example XLS | 17:08 |
| yvl | believe me, that would help not only Alan :) | 17:08 |
| aelkner_ | yeah! | 17:08 |
| * yvl has no idea how not fucked sideways skill tree looks | 17:08 | |
| yvl | never seen one :/ | 17:08 |
| th1a | OK, I'll send one. | 17:08 |
| yvl | much appreciated | 17:08 |
| aelkner_ | +1 | 17:08 |
| aelkner_ | th1a, btw, i'll need to point you to the new xls formats | 17:09 |
| aelkner_ | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~schooltool-owners/schooltool/schooltool.cando/view/head:/src/schooltool/cando/browser/stests/sample_global_data.xls | 17:09 |
| aelkner_ | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~schooltool-owners/schooltool/schooltool.cando/view/head:/src/schooltool/cando/browser/stests/sample_global_data.xls | 17:10 |
| aelkner_ | crap, sorry | 17:10 |
| th1a | Ooh, look, the standards we used 10 years ago are finally on the web: | 17:10 |
| th1a | http://www.ncee.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/HS-019-047-ela.pdf | 17:10 |
| aelkner_ | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~schooltool-owners/schooltool/schooltool.cando/view/head:/src/schooltool/cando/browser/stests/sample_data.xls | 17:10 |
| aelkner_ | the second one is for layers and nodes | 17:10 |
| aelkner_ | th1a, if you can fill in those files with meaningful data (no more than 2 skills per skillset is needed) | 17:11 |
| aelkner_ | and the sideways year to year nodes or whatever you're talking about | 17:11 |
| aelkner_ | that would help greatly | 17:11 |
| th1a | Well, part of the problem here is that there are the normal cases which are simple and then a vast gulf to the fucked up ones. | 17:13 |
| * yvl knows only the fucked up ones :D | 17:14 | |
| aelkner_ | just one fucked up one would expose a lot | 17:14 |
| aelkner_ | and turn the intuitive into algebra | 17:14 |
| th1a | My point is that there are an infinite number of fucked cases. | 17:14 |
| th1a | Which don't make any sense. | 17:14 |
| aelkner_ | we have to support a logically limited set of scenarios, ofc | 17:15 |
| th1a | I think what we're lacking is a sense of the simple ones. | 17:15 |
| aelkner_ | examples -> sense | 17:15 |
| aelkner_ | start with a trivial one | 17:15 |
| aelkner_ | then, do a second oine, not so trivial, but no so fucked up | 17:15 |
| aelkner_ | we should already see a pattern develop | 17:16 |
| aelkner_ | then, we could test that pattern against a really nasty one | 17:16 |
| aelkner_ | then, voila, we have a well-defined algebra | 17:16 |
| th1a | yvl has already digested the main requirements into the data model. | 17:16 |
| aelkner_ | well, examples are lacking, and that's the key | 17:17 |
| th1a | Look. | 17:17 |
| yvl | aelkner_, let's start with sane examples | 17:17 |
| yvl | we can import the insane ones later | 17:17 |
| th1a | If you want a complex example, look at the CTE skills trees. | 17:17 |
| th1a | I | 17:17 |
| th1a | should go over the new importers anyhow and let them know if you make me cry. | 17:18 |
| yvl | but XLS of sane ones would really help me :| | 17:18 |
| aelkner_ | looking at CTE skills trees does not an example set of xls files make | 17:18 |
| th1a | OK, moving on. | 17:18 |
| aelkner_ | yvl, could you come up with exmple XLS files to match your model? | 17:18 |
| th1a | I will do it. | 17:18 |
| aelkner_ | ones that th1a could agree make sense | 17:18 |
| th1a | I will do it. | 17:19 |
| th1a | yvl has other things to do. | 17:19 |
| th1a | aelkner has to read through this document though: http://www.ncee.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/HS-019-047-ela.pdf | 17:20 |
| aelkner_ | ok, that'll work | 17:21 |
| aelkner_ | it looks pretty algebraic :) | 17:21 |
| th1a | OK. In the meantime aelkner_, please give nodes an optional label. | 17:22 |
| yvl | allright | 17:24 |
| yvl | can I cut the meeting short today? | 17:24 |
| th1a | Yes yvl. | 17:24 |
| th1a | Thank you . | 17:24 |
| th1a | See you wednesday. | 17:24 |
| yvl | cool | 17:24 |
| * yvl will be available by email as usual | 17:24 | |
| th1a | Let me know if you have any questions, ofc. | 17:24 |
| yvl | and sometimes IRC probably | 17:25 |
| yvl | sure! | 17:25 |
| yvl | ok - good luck guys! | 17:25 |
| th1a | Say hi to helder and antonio for me. | 17:25 |
| th1a | aelkner_, we should probably talk later today. I'm assuming you aren't really planning on working between now and mid-afternoon anyhow. | 17:27 |
| *** yvl has quit IRC | 17:27 | |
| aelkner_ | well, i was about to embark on reading the pdf, so i'll be working on that | 17:29 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:29 |
| th1a | Thanks aelkner_. | 17:30 |
| th1a | replaceafill? | 17:30 |
| replaceafill | ok | 17:30 |
| replaceafill | i fixed some small details in the gradebook | 17:30 |
| replaceafill | gradebooks* | 17:30 |
| replaceafill | the menus are now created using json requests + javascript | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | instead of passing the huge html pieces | 17:31 |
| th1a | Ah, good. | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | according to firebug, the menu for an activity was: | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | like 1k of html | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | now it's about 400 bytes | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | more or less | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | and the menu is built with js on the browser | 17:32 |
| replaceafill | i sync'ed the journal with this change too | 17:32 |
| replaceafill | i'm almost done with the skills gradebook, and i have a question here | 17:32 |
| replaceafill | if we make the skills gradebook the default for the CanDo tab | 17:32 |
| replaceafill | how is the user going to access the projects? | 17:33 |
| th1a | Well, to me it is one gradebook with two modes. | 17:33 |
| th1a | We need a switch. | 17:33 |
| replaceafill | ok, how does he change modes? | 17:33 |
| replaceafill | yes | 17:33 |
| replaceafill | i was tempted to use the arrow pointing down :D | 17:33 |
| th1a | I don't know. What do you think? | 17:33 |
| replaceafill | or insert something else there... | 17:33 |
| replaceafill | but i really don't know | 17:34 |
| th1a | I think it needs to be explicit at the risk of being clunky. | 17:34 |
| th1a | Like, radio buttons at the top of the sidebar. | 17:34 |
| replaceafill | ah | 17:34 |
| th1a | Show skills | 17:34 |
| th1a | Show projects | 17:34 |
| replaceafill | above the section/term/year navigators? | 17:35 |
| th1a | That's where I'd start unless you have a better idea. | 17:35 |
| replaceafill | ok, i'll put it there and we start from that :) | 17:35 |
| replaceafill | and show it to you | 17:35 |
| th1a | But basically, it is something where not confusing the casual user is more important than making it slick for the power user. | 17:36 |
| replaceafill | right | 17:36 |
| replaceafill | ah | 17:36 |
| replaceafill | also, i created an inventory of our pdf reports | 17:36 |
| replaceafill | and started populating a test db | 17:36 |
| replaceafill | i plan to start on that tomorrow | 17:36 |
| replaceafill | my only concern at this point is rotating the text in the gradebook :D | 17:37 |
| replaceafill | for the activity titles ;) | 17:37 |
| replaceafill | i think we have enough for the rest of the templates | 17:37 |
| replaceafill | i think that's it from me | 17:38 |
| th1a | OK. I'm pretty sure it is possible in reportlab, if not RML. | 17:38 |
| replaceafill | i've seen it in reportlab | 17:39 |
| replaceafill | i haven't seen it in rml | 17:39 |
| th1a | Basically though, we don't need to stop and spend four days on it. | 17:39 |
| replaceafill | :D | 17:39 |
| replaceafill | i won't! | 17:39 |
| replaceafill | :) | 17:39 |
| th1a | We may need to do that report in mostly or all ReportLab. | 17:39 |
| replaceafill | hhmm, good point | 17:40 |
| replaceafill | i haven't thought of that | 17:40 |
| th1a | It does help us a lot to get the diagonal text. | 17:40 |
| th1a | We just don't necessarily need to do it right now. | 17:40 |
| replaceafill | ah ok, cool | 17:40 |
| replaceafill | good to know | 17:40 |
| th1a | I guess one question would be if there is an easy way to add some kind of RML directive for some custom ReportLab code. | 17:40 |
| replaceafill | according to yvl, it's possible (i remember i asked him when i did the id cards) | 17:41 |
| replaceafill | but i don't know how to do it :( | 17:41 |
| replaceafill | i'll look into that too | 17:41 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:42 |
| th1a | Let's just try to keep diagonal text from taking longer than the rest of the task put together in this pass at it. | 17:43 |
| th1a | Thanks replaceafill. | 17:43 |
| th1a | menesis: I see we had an upgrade bug come up. | 17:43 |
| menesis | yes | 17:44 |
| menesis | that user has reported the same bug before | 17:44 |
| menesis | there is an assert in evolution script that he hits, not sure why | 17:46 |
| * replaceafill remembers someone said asserts in evolution scripts are evil, and now i see why | 17:46 | |
| menesis | but that's in a method with docstring "HACK: this does not work properly in generic case!" | 17:46 |
| menesis | I would just remove an assert | 17:47 |
| menesis | because the evolution converts all scoresystem utilities | 17:47 |
| menesis | and then tries to remove traces of those utilities that are not properly removed | 17:48 |
| menesis | maybe they are.. | 17:48 |
| menesis | I suggested the reporter to do that and it worked | 17:49 |
| th1a | replaceafill: Do you have any opinion about that? Should we ask yvl? Or just do it? | 17:50 |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill, i just caught up with the log | 17:50 |
| aelkner_ | you know, i rotated text once | 17:50 |
| aelkner_ | it was for schooltool.niepa | 17:50 |
| replaceafill | aelkner_, ah! | 17:50 |
| aelkner_ | and there was a custom class, but no directive was defined, we didn't get that far | 17:51 |
| replaceafill | th1a, we should ask yvl | 17:51 |
| replaceafill | i think he put the assert there | 17:51 |
| replaceafill | aelkner_, great, i'll check the niepa code | 17:51 |
| aelkner_ | i'm available to discuss it, it has issues, like the offsets are hard-coded | 17:52 |
| aelkner_ | but the size of a box is not fixed | 17:52 |
| aelkner_ | just in the particular report, so it's a cludge | 17:53 |
| aelkner_ | perhaps you can do some more of your css algebra (like you did for the gradebook) | 17:53 |
| replaceafill | css algebra :D | 17:53 |
| aelkner_ | remember you had to make sure the menu didn't get clipped | 17:54 |
| aelkner_ | you dynamically used the location in an equation | 17:54 |
| replaceafill | :) | 17:54 |
| aelkner_ | to determine whether to popup left or right | 17:54 |
| aelkner_ | my point is, you'll need to calculate what the offset is based on the dimensions of the box | 17:55 |
| replaceafill | let me look at your niepa code and will ask you on wednesday | 17:55 |
| aelkner_ | you'll understand what i mean after you've looked at it, yes | 17:55 |
| replaceafill | right | 17:55 |
| replaceafill | thanks though | 17:55 |
| aelkner_ | np | 17:56 |
| replaceafill | it'll get me started for sure | 17:56 |
| th1a | menesis: OK, we'll ask yvl. | 17:56 |
| th1a | That would be something that would need to be pushed in a bugfix release, I'd think. | 17:57 |
| th1a | menesis: Do you have any concerns about my release strategy email? | 17:57 |
| menesis | no, because that's what we were doing up to now | 17:58 |
| menesis | schooltool-owners/ppa was for bugfixes, schooltool-owners/dev for flourish testing | 17:59 |
| menesis | ppa's | 17:59 |
| th1a | OK. Good. | 17:59 |
| th1a | It wasn't meant to be shocking. ;-) | 18:00 |
| th1a | How's your schedule looking the next few weeks? | 18:00 |
| menesis | i'm working on philippines project this month | 18:01 |
| th1a | OK. I'd like to give the users in Thailand a chance to try the gradebook performance improvements, say, sometime this month if possible. | 18:02 |
| th1a | If the Philippines is taking all your time though, I understand. | 18:02 |
| th1a | I don't want that to fall over. | 18:03 |
| menesis | also this week I will be the only developer in the office, might have to handle support requests for other products :/ | 18:03 |
| menesis | if you need something, maybe I can do that | 18:04 |
| menesis | it is still schooltool | 18:04 |
| menesis | (the philippines project) | 18:04 |
| th1a | Yes, I'm ok with it. | 18:04 |
| th1a | I'm the one who set it up! | 18:04 |
| th1a | :-D | 18:04 |
| menesis | yes but it's not like switching to a completely different project | 18:05 |
| th1a | OK. I think we're on the same page menesis. | 18:05 |
| th1a | I'd say the only thing to worry about this week release wise would be if we make a decision about the evolution bug. | 18:06 |
| th1a | And push that. | 18:06 |
| th1a | Otherwise, the dev repositories can wait a week or two or more as necessary. | 18:06 |
| th1a | OK, I think we're done here. Thanks gentlemen. | 18:07 |
| menesis | dev repositories? | 18:07 |
| th1a | Testing, whatever. | 18:07 |
| menesis | if you mean another ppa then maybe wait | 18:08 |
| th1a | For testing the gradebook performance. | 18:08 |
| th1a | Well, maybe it is the same one updated. | 18:08 |
| menesis | but if aelkner_ or replaceafill wants to merge things to trunk (flourish) then go ahead | 18:08 |
| th1a | <menesis> no, because that's what we were doing up to now | 18:08 |
| th1a | schooltool-owners/ppa was for bugfixes, schooltool-owners/dev for flourish testing | 18:08 |
| menesis | I can branch stable branches from the point I need | 18:09 |
| th1a | OK. I don't think we'll worry about it immediately. | 18:10 |
| th1a | Have a good couple of days! | 18:11 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 18:11 | |
| aelkner_ | th1a, have a moment to discuss the pdf? | 18:11 |
| th1a | Sure. | 18:12 |
| aelkner_ | page 4 has English 1 Reading, which is E1 a | 18:12 |
| aelkner_ | then it talks about activities 1b, 3a, 3b | 18:12 |
| aelkner_ | i don't see where they are defined | 18:13 |
| aelkner_ | also, E1 a, is rather long, broken up into a number of sub competencies | 18:13 |
| aelkner_ | mounting a tripad is a lot more specific then 'make a talk show' | 18:13 |
| aelkner_ | it does talk a lot about activities to become competent, but we only have projects which are collections of skills | 18:14 |
| th1a | You probably need this: http://www.ncee.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/HS-cover-018.pdf | 18:15 |
| th1a | How to read the standards starts on page 8. | 18:15 |
| th1a | E1 is itself a rather oddball standard. | 18:17 |
| th1a | the cross references in the example activities are to other standards also addressed by that activity. | 18:18 |
| th1a | What they're calling activities would be "projects" in CanDo. | 18:18 |
| th1a | This isn't the simplest document to figure out, I suppose... | 18:22 |
| th1a | The hierarchy is simple though! | 18:22 |
| th1a | Does that help? | 18:25 |
| replaceafill | th1a, gradebook question: worksheets deployed from report sheets don't show the Average or Total columns | 18:26 |
| replaceafill | but they're able to show Tardies and Absences | 18:27 |
| replaceafill | i think they shouldn't, right? | 18:27 |
| th1a | In this case the user has to decide if they want to evaluate the standards themselves, like E2a, or if they want to evaluate the constituent indicators. | 18:27 |
| replaceafill | oops, sorry for interrupting | 18:27 |
| th1a | np | 18:27 |
| th1a | Um... | 18:27 |
| th1a | replaceafill: I'm not sure it matters. | 18:28 |
| replaceafill | ah ok, just wondering | 18:28 |
| aelkner_ | th1a, this choice between evaluating E2a and the constituent indicators | 18:29 |
| aelkner_ | how do mean, choose one or the other to allow and go with it? | 18:29 |
| aelkner_ | or allow both some how? | 18:29 |
| aelkner_ | we've never had comps that contained comps before | 18:30 |
| aelkner_ | if that's what you're saying | 18:30 |
| aelkner_ | unless SOLs is for that | 18:30 |
| aelkner_ | would we have a tree that has, for example, one skillset containing big things like E1a, E1b, etc. | 18:31 |
| th1a | It is up to them to decide what level in this document corresponds to "skillset" and "skills" | 18:32 |
| aelkner_ | then other skillsets, one for E1a, that contains all the skills broken down | 18:32 |
| th1a | The E2a level could be skill or skillset. | 18:32 |
| th1a | They do have to decide it for the whole document though. | 18:33 |
| aelkner_ | well, that's what i mean, it has to be fixed | 18:33 |
| th1a | (well maybe they don't, but it would be a mess otherwise) | 18:33 |
| th1a | No... | 18:33 |
| th1a | If the document is inconsistent or ambiguous, | 18:34 |
| th1a | the user has the choice of making a consistent interpretation, which would keep things clear. | 18:34 |
| th1a | Or, for that matter, if they make it inconsistent, that'll work in CanDo too. | 18:35 |
| th1a | Not particularly well, but there is nothing we can do about THAT. | 18:35 |
| th1a | But basically, the user just has to decide on what level they're going to evaluate these standards. | 18:36 |
| th1a | It is just a decision. | 18:36 |
| th1a | They have to decide. | 18:36 |
| th1a | They can't use these standards with pencil and paper without making that decision. | 18:36 |
| aelkner_ | i would think so, that's what i always refer to as process | 18:37 |
| aelkner_ | that's all that really matters to them | 18:37 |
| aelkner_ | the way we represent the data in the model is what matters to us | 18:37 |
| aelkner_ | and i'm looking forward to the moment when i see the connection between the process and the model | 18:38 |
| th1a | The way we did this at FHS, translated to our model is: | 18:38 |
| th1a | English is a "subject" level node. | 18:39 |
| th1a | E2 is a skillset. | 18:39 |
| th1a | E2a is a skill. | 18:39 |
| th1a | That's it. | 18:39 |
| th1a | Except we would call E2 a "cluster" | 18:39 |
| th1a | and E2a a "standard." | 18:40 |
| th1a | That's the whole model. | 18:40 |
| th1a | Done. | 18:40 |
| th1a | Then you can group those into projects. | 18:41 |
| th1a | Sometimes you have to come up with titles because the standards people are too lazy to do that themselves. | 18:41 |
| th1a | Does that make sense, aelkner_? | 18:45 |
| aelkner_ | it's english | 18:45 |
| aelkner_ | se, the thing is, each time the problem gets restated, in english, it changes | 18:46 |
| aelkner_ | if it were stated in xls, it could only be clear | 18:46 |
| aelkner_ | because math can't lie | 18:47 |
| th1a | I will make your xls. | 18:47 |
| th1a | But it is not that complicated. | 18:47 |
| aelkner_ | there are many things in the xls that you didn't mention ust above, so i'll forward to seeing it | 18:48 |
| aelkner_ | did you see the links i posted earlier in the meeting | 18:48 |
| aelkner_ | they are the latest versions with all the columns | 18:48 |
| aelkner_ | no label column as you asked for yet, but perhaps as you fill it in, you'll see that it's not needed | 18:49 |
| th1a | OK. | 18:49 |
| aelkner_ | or, the other possibility is, you'll demostrate that it is needed | 18:49 |
| aelkner_ | either way, it's a win-win | 18:49 |
| aelkner_ | oh, and if it is, then i'll add it right away | 18:49 |
| th1a | It is not needed in this case, but that doesn't say much. | 18:50 |
| aelkner_ | no, but that's the point, you need to come up with the various cases | 18:50 |
| aelkner_ | then i'll see the point of having these attributes in these objects in the first place | 18:50 |
| th1a | aelkner_: Look, I AM ACTUALLY FAMILIAR WITH THESE DOCUMENTS. | 18:50 |
| th1a | I don't have to prove things to you through examples. | 18:51 |
| aelkner_ | you're not getting my point | 18:51 |
| th1a | I am actually more familiar with a wider variety of these documents than our customers. | 18:51 |
| aelkner_ | typing is wearing me out, can we talk on the phone? | 18:51 |
| th1a | How about if I have lunch and a shower and write the XLS? | 18:52 |
| aelkner_ | ok, you want to set up a meeting time? | 18:53 |
| th1a | HOw about 2:00. | 18:53 |
| aelkner_ | ok | 18:53 |
| * replaceafill catching up with blender http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1555/74784420.png :) | 19:09 | |
| th1a | :-) | 19:25 |
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| jelkner | th1a, replaceafill, are you here? | 19:34 |
| replaceafill | yes jelkner | 19:34 |
| th1a | Yes. | 19:34 |
| th1a | ... | 19:35 |
| th1a | ? | 19:35 |
| jelkner | so we had the meeting this morning | 19:35 |
| jelkner | and it appears we have a *partial* victory | 19:35 |
| th1a | ah | 19:35 |
| jelkner | two people showed up | 19:35 |
| jelkner | one clearly supportive, the other clearly not | 19:35 |
| *** menesis has quit IRC | 19:36 | |
| jelkner | the one who wasn't supportive started out saying | 19:36 |
| jelkner | "When I heard that Jeff Elkner was involved" | 19:37 |
| jelkner | "I figured this must be one of those open source Ubuntu things" | 19:37 |
| th1a | lol | 19:37 |
| jelkner | "but I decided to come anyway" | 19:37 |
| replaceafill | :| | 19:37 |
| jelkner | So I did get permission to use ST next year myself | 19:37 |
| jelkner | which is good | 19:37 |
| jelkner | because at present I'm rouge | 19:38 |
| jelkner | I'm the only teacher in APS not using easy grade pro | 19:38 |
| jelkner | so now i have "permission" | 19:38 |
| jelkner | we have "permission" to try this with the HILT A program also | 19:38 |
| th1a | ok... | 19:39 |
| jelkner | that's what I mean by "partial" victory | 19:39 |
| th1a | What was total victory? | 19:39 |
| th1a | All of ACC? | 19:39 |
| jelkner | because it isn't clear yet whether Isaac, Sean, and Pat could use it with all their classes | 19:39 |
| jelkner | let me explain | 19:39 |
| jelkner | i will use it with all my classes | 19:39 |
| jelkner | (i'm doing that now) | 19:39 |
| jelkner | but i'm the only one | 19:40 |
| jelkner | if isaac, sean and pat are only allowed to use ST with the one class | 19:40 |
| jelkner | they would have to use two different gradebooks | 19:40 |
| jelkner | that's a pain in the butt | 19:40 |
| jelkner | and i don't know how happy my colleagues would be to do that | 19:41 |
| jelkner | so i need to talk to them | 19:41 |
| th1a | What's the import/export format situation? | 19:41 |
| jelkner | ahh, that gets much more complicated | 19:41 |
| jelkner | since APS just bought a whole new system | 19:41 |
| jelkner | i need to find out what it is from dave | 19:41 |
| jelkner | i believe it used to be called "Genisis" | 19:41 |
| jelkner | are you familiar with it? | 19:42 |
| th1a | No. | 19:42 |
| jelkner | they are behind in deployment (what's new) | 19:42 |
| jelkner | but now they plan to role that out not next year | 19:42 |
| jelkner | but the year after | 19:42 |
| jelkner | so we probably don't have to worry about grade export | 19:42 |
| jelkner | we would just do next year what i do now | 19:42 |
| jelkner | enter grades directly into eSchools+ | 19:43 |
| jelkner | that would be good news, actually | 19:43 |
| th1a | Uh, ok. | 19:43 |
| jelkner | since we could focus on things that really matter | 19:43 |
| jelkner | like having good data | 19:43 |
| jelkner | access on-line by students (and parents) | 19:44 |
| jelkner | that was a big issue raised this morning | 19:44 |
| jelkner | because aps is making a lot of publicity about how parents can now view their student's info on-line | 19:44 |
| jelkner | so i'm thinking | 19:44 |
| jelkner | that's where we can focus our energy | 19:44 |
| th1a | Ah. | 19:44 |
| jelkner | on things that ST needs in general | 19:44 |
| jelkner | like students able to see the journal info | 19:45 |
| th1a | That's late 2012, early 2013 stuff, yes. | 19:45 |
| jelkner | cool | 19:45 |
| jelkner | so i think we are ok | 19:45 |
| jelkner | i'm at least satisfied that i can proceed with the pyquiz work this summer | 19:47 |
| jelkner | and use it here next year | 19:47 |
| th1a | OK. | 19:47 |
| jelkner | so i can call paul and david in now and start talking to them | 19:47 |
| th1a | So I presume it was the IT side that was skeptical? | 19:47 |
| jelkner | actually, no | 19:47 |
| jelkner | our data guy (the head of data services) was friendly | 19:47 |
| jelkner | he likes us | 19:48 |
| jelkner | and we have dealt with him before a lot with cando | 19:48 |
| jelkner | the other woman there actually does staff support for teacher interaction with the data system | 19:49 |
| jelkner | she was the one who clearly had ideological issues with free software | 19:49 |
| jelkner | so that's a battle i won't win | 19:49 |
| jelkner | so there we have it | 19:50 |
| jelkner | a "partial" victory | 19:50 |
| jelkner | enough to move forward anyway | 19:50 |
| jelkner | i'll talk to my colleagues about what they would like to do next year | 19:51 |
| jelkner | and get back to you all when i have a clearer idea of that | 19:51 |
| jelkner | th1a, the next thing i'll need to talk to you about is the summer pilot | 19:52 |
| jelkner | we start july 2 | 19:52 |
| jelkner | we want to test our fall software on the summer program | 19:52 |
| jelkner | including: cando and gradebook integration (cando projects that show up in the gradebook) | 19:52 |
| jelkner | and pyquiz | 19:52 |
| th1a | Yes. | 19:53 |
| th1a | We're coming along. | 19:53 |
| jelkner | it's may 7 | 19:53 |
| jelkner | do we look ok for a july 2 start? | 19:53 |
| th1a | Yes. | 19:53 |
| jelkner | cool | 19:53 |
| jelkner | ok, that's all for now | 19:54 |
| jelkner | interim grades are due | 19:54 |
| jelkner | so i need to get back to my teacher duties | 19:54 |
| th1a | OK, get to work jelkner. | 19:54 |
| jelkner | thanks! | 19:54 |
| *** jelkner has quit IRC | 19:55 | |
| Lumiere | damn... misssed jelkner | 20:13 |
| th1a | aelkner_: where do I give skillsets a title? | 20:13 |
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| th1a | hi aelkner_. | 21:04 |
| aelkner_ | hey | 21:05 |
| th1a | Did you get my spreadsheets? | 21:07 |
| aelkner_ | not yet, looking now... | 21:09 |
| aelkner_ | ok, for starters, you'll need to define E1, etc. in the skillsets sheet | 21:10 |
| th1a | Am I missing the skillsets sheet? | 21:11 |
| aelkner_ | you stil have carpentry there for some reason | 21:11 |
| aelkner_ | no, it's there | 21:11 |
| aelkner_ | open calc is a bit annoying that it gives so much room for the cell slider and so litle for the sheets | 21:12 |
| th1a | Maybe I'm not seeing that sheet for some reason. | 21:12 |
| th1a | Anyhow, you understand what is supposed to go there. | 21:12 |
| aelkner_ | if you hit the slider at the very left, you'll set it | 21:12 |
| aelkner_ | set it | 21:13 |
| aelkner_ | ok, the other sheet you sent doesn't look anything like our import format, where are the Layers and Nodes sheets? | 21:14 |
| aelkner_ | i sent you a link to the example file, did you follow the link? | 21:14 |
| aelkner_ | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~schooltool-owners/schooltool/schooltool.cando/view/head:/src/schooltool/cando/browser/stests/sample_data.xls | 21:15 |
| aelkner_ | there you can define the layers you have for your first sample school and then the nodes | 21:16 |
| aelkner_ | btw, the Layers and Nodes sheets are imported from the school year context | 21:16 |
| aelkner_ | so any data there is assumed to be for the school year | 21:17 |
| aelkner_ | the only connection to the global, non-year-dependent, data is the skillsets column of the Nodes sheet | 21:17 |
| aelkner_ | there, the link between this years node and all year's global data is made | 21:17 |
| * th1a had to deal with a complicated poop-related emergency. | 21:19 | |
| th1a | There is one node. | 21:19 |
| th1a | That's it! | 21:20 |
| th1a | I mean, you could add one for math, one for science, and one for "Applied Learning" and then you'd have the whole thing. | 21:20 |
| th1a | But they're all Subject layer nodes. | 21:21 |
| aelkner_ | ok, i'm sorry, i made the same mistake you did, not seeing the other sheet | 21:21 |
| aelkner_ | stupid open calc and it's slider | 21:21 |
| th1a | Is there a layer sheet? | 21:21 |
| aelkner_ | you see the |< at the bottom, first ou should slide the slider to the right of the |> to the right for roon | 21:22 |
| aelkner_ | then hit the |< and both Layes and Nodes sheet names come into view | 21:23 |
| th1a | We literally need to pay attention to what sheet we have open when saving these. | 21:23 |
| th1a | So basically there, there is just one entry: subject | Subject | 21:23 |
| aelkner_ | yeah, good point, i already started to point the cell to the upper left column of the sheet i was on | 21:24 |
| aelkner_ | but truely, before i commit a change to one of these sheets, i should navigate to the first sheet, first cell and hit save | 21:24 |
| aelkner_ | so, you see that you would just have the one row, define subject, the id, with Subject as the title | 21:25 |
| aelkner_ | and the node should point to subject with a small s | 21:25 |
| th1a | yes | 21:25 |
| aelkner_ | could you come up with at least a two-level heirarchy to demostrate that much? | 21:26 |
| aelkner_ | that would be what i would call a basis, simple but demostrative of structure | 21:26 |
| th1a | Is there something wrong with the carpentry example? | 21:26 |
| aelkner_ | then we could come up with a whole other school wth more screwed up structure | 21:26 |
| th1a | No, we will not do that. | 21:27 |
| th1a | We're not going to sit around making up screwed up problems. | 21:27 |
| th1a | What doesn't the carpentry example do for us? | 21:28 |
| aelkner_ | well, just dong CTE with versioning should be screwed up enough | 21:28 |
| th1a | The data model is fine. | 21:28 |
| aelkner_ | the carpentry example is not for users to use as a guide | 21:28 |
| aelkner_ | it was for testing the code | 21:28 |
| th1a | We're not talking about user guides at this point. | 21:29 |
| th1a | I can try to find an example that is already in a machine-readable format. | 21:29 |
| *** menesis has quit IRC | 21:29 | |
| th1a | Or we can just use CanDo stuff for that. | 21:29 |
| th1a | A subset thereof. | 21:30 |
| aelkner_ | yes, a small subset that has same complexity, but two skills per skillset limit for our sanity | 21:30 |
| th1a | Look... if we write a browser for this stuff if will not be so mind bending. | 21:31 |
| aelkner_ | just stick with me here, if we create the import samples, it won't be mind bending | 21:32 |
| th1a | Can you change the node view to just show the top level nodes and with links to parents and children? | 21:32 |
| th1a | You know what aelkner_? It would be easier for me to enter these if I had add views. | 21:32 |
| th1a | Instead of stupid spreadsheets. | 21:32 |
| th1a | Spreadsheets are good if you've already got these in machine readable form. | 21:33 |
| aelkner_ | i can't made views wthout knowing where stuff is supposed to go in the model | 21:33 |
| th1a | Not for just typing stuff. | 21:33 |
| aelkner_ | look, if the model is good, you should be able to populate the spreadshert | 21:33 |
| th1a | What about that don't you know? | 21:34 |
| th1a | I just don't want to type in spreadsheets. | 21:34 |
| th1a | It is confusing! | 21:34 |
| aelkner_ | if you can't, then we need to fix the model | 21:34 |
| aelkner_ | i shouldn't be confusing | 21:34 |
| th1a | No... that's why we're writing web forms. | 21:34 |
| aelkner_ | the data model is supposed to be illuminating | 21:34 |
| th1a | That's the point of this exercise. | 21:34 |
| th1a | Look, spreadsheets are not designed for typing in hieararchical data. | 21:35 |
| th1a | They aren't outliners. | 21:35 |
| aelkner_ | still, i'd appreciate if you would just cooperate with me on this | 21:35 |
| th1a | Nor, for that matter, are they designed for entering paragraphs. | 21:35 |
| aelkner_ | my feeling is that the data model is false, you say it isn't, but you can't prove it is | 21:36 |
| th1a | False in what way? | 21:36 |
| aelkner_ | if it's not a false model, then it should be trivial to fill in the darn sheet | 21:36 |
| th1a | It is not trivial data! | 21:36 |
| aelkner_ | if you only have two skillssets wth two skills each, it is | 21:36 |
| th1a | We have lots of spreadsheets that we use for import/export that I wouldn't want to type. | 21:36 |
| aelkner_ | just be crating a simple example that actually would succesfully import is a victory | 21:37 |
| th1a | The carpentry example works, right? | 21:37 |
| th1a | What's the problem? | 21:37 |
| aelkner_ | it doesn't do anything real | 21:37 |
| aelkner_ | it just exercises the import code | 21:37 |
| th1a | Compared to what? | 21:37 |
| aelkner_ | what you started producing just now, english skills, that's more likely to be real | 21:38 |
| th1a | Real in what sense? | 21:38 |
| aelkner_ | could actually be uses at a real school kind of real | 21:38 |
| th1a | It is more real data, but in structure it is all the same. | 21:38 |
| th1a | I don't understand what you're imagining the problem is here. | 21:39 |
| aelkner_ | i just don't see how any of the spreadsheet could be confusing | 21:39 |
| aelkner_ | it just follows the model, so if the model is clear, the sheets are | 21:39 |
| th1a | It is not so much confusing as a pain. It isn't the best way to enter a bunch of textual data. | 21:39 |
| aelkner_ | i don't need a bunch, just a 2 x 2 x 2, etc. sized data set that pretended to be usable in a school | 21:40 |
| aelkner_ | if we had this example, we could then discuss how the ui would work to get it into the data | 21:40 |
| aelkner_ | two layers | 21:41 |
| aelkner_ | i don't 2 X 2 nodes, two nodes for each layer, i guess | 21:41 |
| aelkner_ | a couple of skillsets, with a couple of skills each | 21:41 |
| aelkner_ | a lnkage between the nodes and the skillsets | 21:41 |
| * th1a has a call. | 21:42 | |
| aelkner_ | then, we could be looking at the same set of succesfully importable data, and i think we'd have something | 21:44 |
| aelkner_ | the carpentry example really isn't gong to do that for us | 21:44 |
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| th1a | Just got dwelsh's update from the day's meeting. | 21:55 |
| aelkner_ | i just set up my demo instance to have no skills or nodes | 21:55 |
| th1a | I do genuinely think you'd understand better if you'd enter the data yourself. | 21:55 |
| th1a | You might find this a bit clearer: http://www.ncee.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/HS-048-079-math.pdf | 21:57 |
| aelkner_ | what you realize is the more english, the less clear, the more math, the more clear | 21:57 |
| th1a | There is no math. | 21:58 |
| th1a | Most of the time these are shallow trees. | 21:58 |
| aelkner_ | yes, objects having attributes, some of which point to other objects | 21:58 |
| aelkner_ | that's math | 21:58 |
| th1a | So... | 21:58 |
| th1a | here's the thing. | 21:58 |
| th1a | I think once yvl gets back -- or at some point in the future -- we'll add a document object, which will give us a little clearer distinction in the UI. | 21:59 |
| th1a | So that the user knows that practically, he or she has the top of a tree they can browse. | 21:59 |
| th1a | And then also have the current node soup views for when that doesn't apply. | 22:00 |
| th1a | You just have to imagine "ok, I've got this book, my boss (the principal) told me to enter these skills, what do I do?" | 22:01 |
| th1a | How would you want to type in those math standards, aelkner_? | 22:02 |
| th1a | I would want to have a button that said "New Standards Document" | 22:04 |
| th1a | Then enter the title... | 22:05 |
| th1a | And, unfortunately, I'd have to enter the levels in the hierarchy next (ug). | 22:05 |
| th1a | And then start plugging away. | 22:05 |
| th1a | 1st subject, English, | 22:05 |
| th1a | OK, 1st cluster, reading, | 22:05 |
| th1a | reading 25 texts... | 22:06 |
| th1a | reading comprehension | 22:06 |
| th1a | ok, on to writing | 22:06 |
| aelkner_ | slow down | 22:06 |
| th1a | narrative report, | 22:06 |
| th1a | persuasive essay, | 22:06 |
| th1a | etc. | 22:06 |
| aelkner_ | those last things are skills? | 22:06 |
| th1a | Yes. | 22:07 |
| th1a | Although I don't call them skills. | 22:07 |
| th1a | This is what we were talking about last week... | 22:07 |
| th1a | Anyhow, | 22:07 |
| aelkner_ | to save confusion, skill = comp = standard, right? | 22:07 |
| th1a | let's set that aside. | 22:07 |
| th1a | Yes, we'll call them skills today. | 22:07 |
| aelkner_ | all three are identical thing in reality, just different names | 22:07 |
| th1a | Yes. | 22:07 |
| th1a | For our purposes. | 22:08 |
| aelkner_ | ok, you can use any f the three at any tme, i i will understand | 22:08 |
| aelkner_ | so, you realize that there is no place for a skill in our node | 22:08 |
| aelkner_ | nodes do point to skillsets | 22:08 |
| aelkner_ | but what you are describing does not fit our model | 22:09 |
| th1a | I have no idea of what you're talking about. | 22:09 |
| aelkner_ | which is kind of the point of asking you to make a sample file | 22:09 |
| aelkner_ | by trying to, you see that you can't | 22:09 |
| th1a | That is the example I made for you. | 22:09 |
| th1a | It is exactly the same thing. | 22:09 |
| th1a | English > Reading > 25 texts | 22:09 |
| th1a | E1a | 22:09 |
| aelkner_ | so this example is weird, btw, this sample school wants a teacher to enter a score for E1a | 22:16 |
| aelkner_ | of E1b | 22:16 |
| th1a | Yes? | 22:17 |
| aelkner_ | E1b has five bullet point with completely different demostrative skills | 22:17 |
| th1a | We don't need those scores. | 22:17 |
| aelkner_ | and the teacher has to give one grade for E1b? | 22:17 |
| th1a | Yes. | 22:17 |
| th1a | Or, if your school prefers, then make the E1b level the skillset. | 22:17 |
| aelkner_ | ok, and then the broken up skills would be inside there, i can see that | 22:18 |
| aelkner_ | i'd prefer if our example would have at least two levels | 22:21 |
| th1a | Well, make E1b a skillset then. | 22:21 |
| th1a | Just give E1a one skill in the skillset. | 22:22 |
| aelkner_ | so the layers could be Subject, ? | 22:23 |
| aelkner_ | i'm not sure what cluster means so i don't want to suggest that | 22:24 |
| th1a | Cluster doesn't mean anything in particular. | 22:24 |
| aelkner_ | subject, sub-area? | 22:25 |
| th1a | Subject > Cluster > Standard (skillset) > Skill | 22:25 |
| aelkner_ | what you just typed is logically self-contradictory, so let's try again | 22:25 |
| aelkner_ | Subject, Cluster are the layers | 22:25 |
| aelkner_ | E1 is a node at layer, subject | 22:26 |
| aelkner_ | E1a is a node at layer, cluster | 22:26 |
| aelkner_ | it has parent E1 | 22:26 |
| th1a | E is the Subject | 22:27 |
| th1a | E1 is the cluster | 22:27 |
| th1a | E1a is the standard | 22:27 |
| th1a | E1a(1) is the skill | 22:27 |
| th1a | standard = skillset | 22:27 |
| aelkner_ | ok, i'll forgive you for saing standard = skill before | 22:28 |
| aelkner_ | or at least agreeing when i said it | 22:28 |
| th1a | I thought you wanted another layer of nodes? | 22:28 |
| aelkner_ | but we're getting somewhere | 22:28 |
| aelkner_ | let's start with the New Document Model link you refered to | 22:29 |
| aelkner_ | i'm assuming this is at the year context | 22:29 |
| aelkner_ | it's a new year, nothing is set up yet | 22:29 |
| aelkner_ | they navigate to the year find in the Actions linkset, New Document Model | 22:29 |
| aelkner_ | it asks for title and a description | 22:30 |
| th1a | We probably don't want to create the new document object yet. | 22:30 |
| th1a | It could just let you add one of the available top-level nodes. | 22:30 |
| aelkner_ | ok, we assume the app only has one for now? | 22:30 |
| th1a | Add Subject | 22:31 |
| aelkner_ | that's not a node, it's a layer | 22:31 |
| th1a | Not to the user. | 22:31 |
| th1a | They want to add a subject. | 22:31 |
| th1a | That's the point. | 22:31 |
| aelkner_ | yeah, but the app needs to know that they want to add a subject | 22:31 |
| aelkner_ | that there is such a thing as subject | 22:32 |
| aelkner_ | so they need to create a subject layer | 22:32 |
| th1a | For now we'll just use the available top level nodes, ok? | 22:32 |
| th1a | Let's assume levels. | 22:32 |
| aelkner_ | ah, assuming levels | 22:32 |
| th1a | This is not the final form. | 22:32 |
| aelkner_ | so someone else set up three levels, Subject, Cluster, Standard | 22:33 |
| th1a | Yes. | 22:33 |
| th1a | No. | 22:33 |
| th1a | ;-) | 22:33 |
| aelkner_ | Cluster has parent Subject, Standard has parent Cluster | 22:33 |
| th1a | Just subject and cluster | 22:33 |
| th1a | standard is a skillset. | 22:33 |
| aelkner_ | nodes are not skillsets, they point to them | 22:33 |
| aelkner_ | skillsets exist outside of the context of a schoolyear | 22:34 |
| th1a | Fine, but the user doesn't need to know that. | 22:34 |
| aelkner_ | well, they kind of do to deal with year over year variations in skills | 22:34 |
| aelkner_ | they need to have a way to tell the app, theses are skills regardless of year | 22:35 |
| aelkner_ | and here are the skills we are teaching this year | 22:35 |
| aelkner_ | ok, but let's pretend that they don't have that knowledge | 22:35 |
| aelkner_ | they just think that this year is global | 22:35 |
| th1a | It is not so much that, as they don't need to understand the concept of "skillset" and they definitely should not need to completely change context at this point. | 22:36 |
| aelkner_ | so we have just layers Subject and Cluster set up for them | 22:39 |
| th1a | Once you get to the bottom of your nodes, you have to add a skillset or select an existing one. | 22:39 |
| aelkner_ | a node can have any number of skillsets 0-n, so there would have to be these options? | 22:42 |
| aelkner_ | : | 22:42 |
| aelkner_ | 1) add a new skillset | 22:42 |
| aelkner_ | 2) add an existing skilllset | 22:43 |
| th1a | We don't have to support all options through this interface. | 22:43 |
| aelkner_ | 3) remove a skilllset | 22:43 |
| th1a | I guess it doesn't make much difference if we support multiple skillsets per node. | 22:43 |
| th1a | But yes, what you said. | 22:43 |
| aelkner_ | ok, and the view for adding a new skillset would add it to the global app data, even though the user doesn't need to know that | 22:45 |
| aelkner_ | and the view for adding and existing or removing a skillset could be like all our relationship views | 22:46 |
| aelkner_ | red minus signs next to the skillsets that are already assigned to the node | 22:46 |
| aelkner_ | and blue + next to those that exist already but are not assigned to the node | 22:46 |
| aelkner_ | with search/filter | 22:46 |
| aelkner_ | does that sound right? | 22:47 |
| th1a | It would probably be best to not show the whole batch of available skillsets without a search. | 22:47 |
| th1a | You should be able to find what you need with a search. | 22:47 |
| th1a | Well, also we're going to be making a widget soonish. | 22:48 |
| aelkner_ | so the search just has a special filter logic that no filter means no results, that's np | 22:48 |
| th1a | For browsing these trees. | 22:48 |
| aelkner_ | they enter a filter, they see result | 22:48 |
| aelkner_ | what about this: | 22:49 |
| aelkner_ | the year context has one link in the Actions menu, Configure Skills Document | 22:49 |
| aelkner_ | it leads to a tree view | 22:49 |
| aelkner_ | it has an Add linkset with Subject link | 22:50 |
| aelkner_ | after adding a subject, the tree has one root node, English | 22:50 |
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| aelkner_ | next to English is +, with rollover text, 'Add Cluster' | 22:50 |
| aelkner_ | after adding 'Reading Skills', the tree comes back as: | 22:51 |
| aelkner_ | English | 22:51 |
| th1a | At this point I'm just about ready to let you try whatever makes sense to you. | 22:51 |
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| th1a | To get the ball rolling, at least. | 22:51 |
| aelkner_ | ok, i'm going to assum that levels are loaded, and i'll come up with something to build the tree | 22:52 |
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| th1a | ok | 22:53 |
| th1a | please | 22:53 |
| aelkner_ | i meant layers are loaded, but you knew what i meant | 22:54 |
| th1a | y | 22:55 |
| th1a | OK. We set then? | 23:01 |
| aelkner_ | yeah, i have enough to get started | 23:12 |
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