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| jelkner | aelkner, good morning! is there a meeting today? | 16:20 |
|---|---|---|
| th1a | In 10 minutes. | 16:20 |
| jelkner | th1a, happy new year! | 16:21 |
| jelkner | 2011, the year of SchoolTool! | 16:21 |
| th1a | The Year of Growth. | 16:21 |
| jelkner | exactly, that's what i meant | 16:22 |
| th1a | I wasn't contradicting you. ;-) | 16:22 |
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| th1a | Hi yvl, menesis, replaceafill, aelkner, jelkner. | 16:30 |
| aelkner | happy new year | 16:30 |
| replaceafill | good morning/afternoon | 16:30 |
| yvl | good morning guys! | 16:32 |
| yvl | and a happy new year :) | 16:32 |
| th1a | On my 2011 calendar I have a countdown every week to Ubuntu feature freeze. | 16:32 |
| th1a | We are at F-7. | 16:32 |
| th1a | We're aiming for SchoolTool feature freeze February 3. | 16:33 |
| th1a | So that's one month. | 16:33 |
| th1a | (then meeting in Portugal the following week). | 16:33 |
| th1a | yvl: Your email this morning (covering remaining timetabling tasks) was exactly what I was going to ask for. | 16:34 |
| th1a | So we'll go over those tasks a little more later. | 16:34 |
| menesis | happy new year :) | 16:34 |
| th1a | replaceafill: I assume you saw Javier's email? | 16:34 |
| th1a | We also got some excellent news from Cambodia. | 16:35 |
| replaceafill | yes | 16:35 |
| replaceafill | definitely! | 16:35 |
| th1a | They're hiring someone to work with us on SchoolTool requirements for two months. | 16:35 |
| th1a | Not a programmer but that's fine. | 16:35 |
| yvl | good news! | 16:35 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:35 |
| yvl | please forward | 16:35 |
| th1a | As we are not advancing very well on this, we have decided to hire somebody full time to work on the Cambodian side of Schooltool for the next two months: not a programmer, but a person who will work with Douglas to complete all the requirements. We hope to have somebody within the week. | 16:35 |
| th1a | ^ | 16:36 |
| yvl | that's great | 16:36 |
| th1a | So that will be the priority for Douglas as it gets going. | 16:36 |
| replaceafill | got it | 16:36 |
| yvl | it would be nice to ping Critical Links guys | 16:37 |
| th1a | In the meantime, I was thinking that perhaps replaceafill could start working with menesis on integrating more stuff from the localized development into trunk. | 16:38 |
| th1a | There's a lot to be done there. | 16:38 |
| th1a | The exact scope of which I'm not even sure of. | 16:38 |
| yvl | is there any specific stuff you have in mind? | 16:39 |
| th1a | I'd like to have, for example, add student and teacher views. | 16:39 |
| yvl | ah, right! | 16:40 |
| th1a | tbh, I've lost track of what is and isn't in trunk and in local packages. | 16:40 |
| replaceafill | student/teacher views are not in trunk yet | 16:40 |
| th1a | We need someone to review state of trunk and the major variants. | 16:41 |
| replaceafill | would that work the same way it does in cambodia, i mean using default groups? | 16:41 |
| aelkner | i have my own version of those that are rather flexible | 16:41 |
| th1a | I don't think what aelkner has been working on is in trunk. | 16:41 |
| aelkner | no, it's in schooltool.niepa | 16:41 |
| th1a | (the other stuff) | 16:41 |
| aelkner | oh, the demo stuff | 16:42 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:42 |
| aelkner | yeah, i need to work on that this week to respond to code review | 16:42 |
| aelkner | also, i need to add a drop-down for the limit keys field | 16:42 |
| yvl | hmm, maybe Alan and Douglas can run through their code and write down the major new features? | 16:43 |
| th1a | replaceafill: The first step would be to make a list of the new features in the different branches and packages. | 16:43 |
| th1a | ;-) | 16:44 |
| yvl | :) | 16:44 |
| replaceafill | :D | 16:44 |
| replaceafill | yes | 16:44 |
| th1a | Yes, I guess aelkner can do that for his own code. | 16:44 |
| * yvl also lost track of them ;) | 16:44 | |
| th1a | But obviously that's a lot of what we did in 2010, and I don't want it to go cold. | 16:45 |
| th1a | And you guys tend to underestimate the general usefulness of a lot of this stuff. | 16:45 |
| replaceafill | yvl, a crazy idea of mine was that this forms (add student, add teacher, etc) should be adapters | 16:46 |
| th1a | aelkner: OK, so put that on the top of your to do list. | 16:46 |
| replaceafill | yvl, so you could override them in pilots? | 16:46 |
| yvl | I'll have to check :) | 16:46 |
| replaceafill | ok | 16:46 |
| yvl | from what I remember now, I'm ok with views + action viewlets | 16:47 |
| replaceafill | sure, the apaters idea doesnt have much sense if you take skins into account | 16:47 |
| replaceafill | :) | 16:47 |
| replaceafill | th1a, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule shows feature freeze on feb 24 | 16:48 |
| th1a | Yes... seven weeks, correct? | 16:49 |
| replaceafill | ah right! | 16:49 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:50 |
| th1a | So replaceafill, you have something to start on then. | 16:51 |
| th1a | Right? | 16:51 |
| replaceafill | yes | 16:51 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:52 |
| th1a | So my current thinking for aelkner is that I'd like to have him do a first cut on a real report management system in time for the next release. | 16:53 |
| yvl | cool | 16:54 |
| aelkner | sounds good to me | 16:54 |
| yvl | can you please clarify scope a bit? | 16:55 |
| th1a | Probably aelkner should come up here soonish so we can clarify the scope a bit. | 16:55 |
| th1a | But basically, discovery. | 16:55 |
| yvl | :))) | 16:55 |
| th1a | A way to register reports as a developer and find them as a user. | 16:55 |
| aelkner | also, i was thinking of a higher level templating cncept | 16:56 |
| aelkner | but perhaps we should wait untiil we meet to get into that | 16:56 |
| th1a | And scheduling generation of complex reports. | 16:56 |
| yvl | and it deserves a separate folder | 16:56 |
| yvl | schooltool/reports/ | 16:56 |
| yvl | th1a, scheduling? | 16:56 |
| th1a | Or threaded at least. | 16:56 |
| th1a | Not blocking the response. | 16:56 |
| yvl | tricky | 16:57 |
| yvl | very tricky | 16:57 |
| replaceafill | report queue? | 16:57 |
| yvl | even with libraries | 16:57 |
| th1a | I thought we laid the foundation for that at our last sprint. | 16:57 |
| aelkner | don't we have a task man ager ow? | 16:57 |
| aelkner | yeah | 16:57 |
| yvl | I don't like the stability of what we did | 16:57 |
| th1a | Well... | 16:57 |
| yvl | read-write conflicts in the database :/ | 16:57 |
| aelkner | th1a, middle of next week? | 16:57 |
| replaceafill | we got crashes in the database in the sprint | 16:57 |
| replaceafill | sorry, read-write conflicts :) | 16:58 |
| th1a | Can we just read from it? ;-) | 16:58 |
| replaceafill | even when we were not writing to it | 16:58 |
| yvl | the library writes | 16:58 |
| replaceafill | right | 16:58 |
| th1a | Is this a bug or a fundamental design flaw? | 16:58 |
| yvl | IMHO, a design flaw in the lib | 16:59 |
| yvl | or to be more precise | 16:59 |
| yvl | it was designed for a bit different purpose | 16:59 |
| th1a | That's the lovely lib we were using? | 16:59 |
| yvl | yes | 16:59 |
| replaceafill | lovely.remotetask | 16:59 |
| yvl | there's another lib | 16:59 |
| yvl | I can't recall from the top of my head though | 16:59 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:59 |
| th1a | So perhaps that will have to wait. | 17:00 |
| yvl | I checked it out few months ago, looked more solid | 17:00 |
| yvl | probably good for reports, though - extra dependency! | 17:00 |
| yvl | as in - packaging :) | 17:00 |
| th1a | We won't be adding it to this release. | 17:00 |
| yvl | ok | 17:00 |
| yvl | but next one - definitely | 17:00 |
| th1a | Do you know where menesis is, btw, yvl? | 17:00 |
| yvl | 2 meters to the left :) | 17:01 |
| th1a | Oh, he chimed in earlier. | 17:01 |
| th1a | hi menesis. ;-) | 17:01 |
| th1a | aelkner, middle of next week would be good. | 17:01 |
| th1a | I should have had you book it before Christmas, but I couldn't think that far ahead. | 17:02 |
| menesis | :) | 17:02 |
| yvl | please share any specs you come up with | 17:02 |
| aelkner | th1a, i prefer to drive, so... | 17:02 |
| th1a | yvl: We'll probably have a Skype chat. | 17:02 |
| yvl | ok :) | 17:03 |
| th1a | aelkner: Have you driven up here before? | 17:03 |
| aelkner | yep, it's easier for me actually | 17:03 |
| th1a | Do you want to come up this week? | 17:03 |
| aelkner | no scambling for parking, waiting for security, no worrying about making a flight | 17:03 |
| aelkner | this week? i was hoping to get my demo stuff into trunk | 17:04 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:04 |
| aelkner | also, i need to get my car inspection reniewed | 17:04 |
| th1a | OK, but we should do it as soon as you're free. | 17:04 |
| th1a | Since you're driving. | 17:05 |
| th1a | Also, on the subject of reports, | 17:05 |
| th1a | I got an email over the break from a company that is interested in using SchoolTool with several schools in South Africa and will need reports. | 17:06 |
| th1a | Since this is a real vendor, we should be able to get them to do some of the work. | 17:06 |
| th1a | So ideally, what I'd like to see is them doing a lot of the layout themselves in RML. | 17:06 |
| th1a | And then we handle plugging in the data. | 17:07 |
| aelkner | i have ideas on that | 17:07 |
| aelkner | yeah, perhaps i can get up there later this week | 17:07 |
| aelkner | i'll check back with you on that | 17:07 |
| th1a | So I just have to try to get them started on RML... | 17:07 |
| th1a | Presumably the rml library we use lets you just generate a pdf without running Zope... or perhaps we should write a little script to do so? | 17:08 |
| aelkner | i don't see how we can decouple zope from schooltool reports | 17:09 |
| th1a | I mean, if you just create an empty RML template. | 17:09 |
| yvl | yes, it comes with a script to do so | 17:09 |
| th1a | OK, cool. | 17:09 |
| aelkner | what does that mean? | 17:09 |
| th1a | aelkner: This is just for the initial layout step. | 17:09 |
| th1a | Like doing a template for a web form that doesn't have any of the ZPT to add the data in. | 17:10 |
| yvl | aelkner, you can generate pdfs from command line | 17:10 |
| th1a | Or, for that matter, it should ignore the ZPT anyhow, which is kind of the whole point of ZPT. | 17:10 |
| th1a | So they can try to get the layout of the page right themselves. | 17:11 |
| th1a | So we can document that process, | 17:11 |
| th1a | and then aelkner will be working on a somewhat comprehensible way to add the report to a SchoolTool instance. | 17:12 |
| th1a | To register it. | 17:12 |
| th1a | And the step in the middle is adding in the ZPT to actully pull the necessary data. | 17:12 |
| th1a | Make sense? | 17:12 |
| aelkner | these are broad strokes, so i'm a bit fuzzy on what you have in mind | 17:13 |
| aelkner | but i'm sure it will become clear soon | 17:13 |
| yvl | by the way, what would you want to specify in the layout? | 17:13 |
| th1a | You want to make it look like the official forms. | 17:14 |
| aelkner | see i have a higher-level templating language in mind | 17:14 |
| th1a | So there is also the option of overlaying a pdf as we've discussed. | 17:14 |
| th1a | aelkner: I don't think we want to go there yet. | 17:14 |
| th1a | I should ask the SA guy if the overlay approach might work. | 17:14 |
| th1a | aelkner: In due time. | 17:14 |
| yvl | we could do something like | 17:15 |
| yvl | and rml template that draws borders and logos and such | 17:15 |
| aelkner | i understand, first things first | 17:15 |
| yvl | and says - <CONTENT_HERE /> | 17:15 |
| yvl | or <PUT_STUDENT_GRADE_SUMMARY_HERE /> | 17:15 |
| th1a | We will probably to that *too* eventually. | 17:15 |
| aelkner | that's what i was talking about | 17:16 |
| th1a | I think the immediate use case is replicating a very specific form. | 17:16 |
| aelkner | defining content fill nouns | 17:16 |
| th1a | And maybe we should just do that by overlaying on the pdf. | 17:16 |
| aelkner | <table source="persons"> | 17:16 |
| aelkner | whatever | 17:16 |
| aelkner | i don't have anything concrete | 17:16 |
| yvl | yes, overlaying pdf would be easiest | 17:17 |
| yvl | make a one-page PDF, specify a content area | 17:17 |
| th1a | I'll propose that and see if it sounds right. | 17:17 |
| yvl | and draw our generated PDF ontop of that | 17:17 |
| th1a | It is probably easier. | 17:18 |
| th1a | OK, thanks aelkner. | 17:19 |
| th1a | Moving on... | 17:19 |
| yvl | just to make sure we're on the same page- | 17:19 |
| yvl | currenlty ZPT renders RML | 17:19 |
| yvl | complete with data | 17:19 |
| yvl | then the library renders RML | 17:19 |
| yvl | putting in user-defined RML in | 17:19 |
| yvl | is basically the same task as | 17:20 |
| yvl | putting in user-defined HTML page in | 17:20 |
| yvl | to put it other way - | 17:20 |
| yvl | web servers serve HTML, web browsers render it to pictures | 17:21 |
| yvl | we serve RML to ourselves and render it to PDFs | 17:21 |
| yvl | for some reason I wanted to say this :) | 17:21 |
| yvl | moving on... | 17:21 |
| th1a | Moving on to yvl... | 17:22 |
| yvl | right... | 17:22 |
| yvl | well, I sent you the estimates | 17:22 |
| th1a | Can you get all that done by Feb. 3? | 17:23 |
| th1a | It looks like it. | 17:23 |
| yvl | it is likely in my opinion | 17:23 |
| th1a | OK, that's your bonus target. | 17:24 |
| yvl | the minimum is - working stuff with no bells and whistles | 17:24 |
| yvl | ok, sounds fair | 17:24 |
| yvl | thanks! | 17:24 |
| th1a | I'll email the details. | 17:24 |
| yvl | ok | 17:25 |
| th1a | Easy enough. | 17:25 |
| yvl | :) | 17:25 |
| th1a | menesis: Perhaps you could set some Feb 3. pre-SchoolTool freeze goals for yourself and email me. | 17:26 |
| th1a | We'll give you a bonus target too. | 17:26 |
| menesis | th1a: ok | 17:26 |
| th1a | (we'll work aelkner's out at our meeting, and I guess wait and see for replaceafill) | 17:26 |
| menesis | I was thinking about what needs to be done in the new year | 17:27 |
| menesis | before freeze and what's next | 17:27 |
| menesis | will send my notes when I have this sorted | 17:28 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:28 |
| th1a | Thanks menesis. | 17:28 |
| th1a | aelkner: I haven't actually looked at David's report yet. | 17:29 |
| th1a | We'll be taking a break from that for a little while regardless. | 17:29 |
| aelkner | apparently, the meeting was a success | 17:29 |
| aelkner | yeah, they need to wok out human-engineering anyway | 17:30 |
| th1a | Did you read it? | 17:30 |
| aelkner | once, didn't memorize it | 17:30 |
| th1a | OK, good. | 17:30 |
| aelkner | let's look at it together when we meet | 17:30 |
| th1a | Sure. | 17:30 |
| th1a | I'll be reading it... the holiday break is just pretty busy once you have two little kids. :-S | 17:31 |
| th1a | jelkner: Anything to add? | 17:31 |
| jelkner | nope, just lurking ;-) | 17:31 |
| jelkner | oh, one question | 17:31 |
| jelkner | should filip be attending these meetings? | 17:31 |
| jelkner | i asked dwelsh about that this morning | 17:31 |
| th1a | Oh, it is not super-necessary. | 17:31 |
| jelkner | we felt like he should | 17:32 |
| th1a | Primarily if he has questions, but to be honest, we have enough going on as it is. | 17:32 |
| jelkner | but you would know better than we would | 17:32 |
| th1a | It is not really that necessary for him. | 17:32 |
| jelkner | ok | 17:32 |
| yvl | a sidenote for developers - http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.async/ | 17:33 |
| th1a | It would be better to ask questions at different times anyhow. | 17:33 |
| jelkner | i didn't mean to ask questions | 17:33 |
| replaceafill | yvl, i'd like to give it another try :( | 17:33 |
| jelkner | i meant to get to know the ST team | 17:33 |
| jelkner | so that he knows who to ask when he has questions | 17:33 |
| jelkner | and knows who is working on what | 17:33 |
| jelkner | anyway, we'll figure that out in practice | 17:34 |
| th1a | It would be nice but not something I'd worry about. | 17:34 |
| jelkner | got it | 17:34 |
| th1a | Primarily to ensure he doesn't sleep all day. | 17:34 |
| jelkner | exactly! ;-) | 17:34 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:34 |
| th1a | Happy New Year gentlemen and have a great week! | 17:35 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 17:35 | |
| th1a | yvl: Looks good to me. | 17:35 |
| yvl | great week to everyone :) | 17:35 |
| replaceafill | thanks everybody | 17:35 |
| th1a | Also, invoices. I have to pay my taxes by the 15th! | 17:36 |
| yvl | replaceafill, we'll definitely give it another go in next ST version | 17:37 |
| replaceafill | :) | 17:37 |
| yvl | one thing to think about is where we'll store the generated mega-reports | 17:37 |
| yvl | it will kill the database | 17:37 |
| replaceafill | ah! | 17:37 |
| replaceafill | blobs? | 17:37 |
| yvl | probably | 17:37 |
| th1a | Filesystem? | 17:38 |
| yvl | there's some bad karma around the blobs though | 17:38 |
| replaceafill | :| | 17:38 |
| replaceafill | you lose the 'you can just copy the Data.fs file to another server' feature | 17:38 |
| yvl | yes | 17:39 |
| yvl | there will be some work to do with packaging, again | 17:39 |
| yvl | right folders, right permissions | 17:39 |
| replaceafill | 'now you have to copy the Data.fs and the blobs (which could have a different permissions and stuff)' | 17:39 |
| yvl | right | 17:39 |
| yvl | I'm just putting that on the table | 17:40 |
| * yvl remembers older programming days with nostalgia... when "just save it" meant "just save it" :) | 17:41 | |
| th1a | Does "blobs" mean "binary objects in the database?" | 17:42 |
| th1a | Or binary objects in general? | 17:42 |
| yvl | we meant ZODB blob storage | 17:44 |
| yvl | stores large objects in the file system | 17:45 |
| th1a | Oh. | 17:46 |
| th1a | I see. | 17:46 |
| th1a | We really could just save them directly to the filesystem. | 17:46 |
| yvl | probably | 17:48 |
| th1a | aelkner: I just forwarded the SA report email to you. The reports aren't really that weird. | 17:49 |
| th1a | I'm not sure if it wouldn't just be quicker for you to lay them out than to try to help them do it. | 17:50 |
| yvl | but you know, when you have asynchronous file writers... | 17:50 |
| th1a | And maybe they're a good case for a higher level templating language. ;-) | 17:50 |
| aelkner | th1a, we'll see | 18:16 |
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