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| th1a | Let's start with a quote: "When you go to the U.S., and you suggest something, the Americans say, 'Let's do it.' But then it turns out later, it never happens. But here in Europe when you suggest something, everyone says, 'Oh, we can never do that,' but then later it turns out it actually gets done." | 16:31 |
|---|---|---|
| yvl | :))))) | 16:32 |
| aelkner | yeah, it gets done by an American :) | 16:32 |
| th1a | Well, aelkner isn't actually known for his optimism about new ideas either. | 16:32 |
| yvl | oh, and good morning everybody! | 16:33 |
| aelkner | yeah, good morning all | 16:33 |
| replaceafill | good morning/afternoon guys | 16:33 |
| th1a | Hi everyone. | 16:33 |
| yvl | where is the quote from, by the way? | 16:33 |
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| th1a | Well, it is something the author has heard from a number of people in Europe, but the book is "Were You Born on the Wrong Continent" by Thomas Geoghegan. | 16:34 |
| th1a | It is basically about how despite the fact that everyone has been reporting the failure of the German economic model for thirty years, it is still working pretty well. | 16:35 |
| th1a | And most people would be better off in that system than the U.S.'s. | 16:35 |
| th1a | So, any comments on my messaging email last Friday? | 16:37 |
| * replaceafill wonders who's schooltool biggest competitor | 16:38 | |
| aelkner | isn't the email about a schooltool appliance more than anything about messaging | 16:38 |
| th1a | Centre/Focus SIS/OpenSIS. | 16:38 |
| replaceafill | ah | 16:39 |
| th1a | OpenSIS being the strongest of the forks. | 16:39 |
| th1a | But I don't think they can survive as a business. | 16:39 |
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| aelkner | schooltool has no forks, so that's one advantage we have | 16:39 |
| th1a | I do think that for a PHP SIS, forking is kind of inevitable. | 16:40 |
| yvl | true | 16:40 |
| aelkner | and that's zope's selling point | 16:40 |
| th1a | Well... | 16:40 |
| yvl | but to be fair, it's possible to do same things in PHP or in any turing-complete language... | 16:41 |
| th1a | it is more that it is too difficult for someone to learn Zope to do a quick fork. | 16:41 |
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| th1a | That is, anyone can just look at your PHP app and hack shit in wherever they want. | 16:41 |
| th1a | They'd give up on SchoolTool before they figured out where to put their changes. | 16:41 |
| aelkner | but once they hack, their changes are only good for them | 16:42 |
| th1a | That's my point. | 16:42 |
| th1a | I mean, it is not an unambiguously good thing for us, but it is the situation, and it is better to understand it than not. And there are some advantages. | 16:43 |
| th1a | Anyhow, it is about messaging insofar as it affects how we explain what SchoolTool *is*. | 16:44 |
| yvl | main thing with our approach is that it takes literally years for the API layer to evolve | 16:44 |
| th1a | Yes... we've never been disciplined about that. | 16:45 |
| yvl | after that happens, many of the things should be learning python + learning API | 16:45 |
| yvl | still, you'll never be able to hack as freely and mindlessly as with PHP | 16:46 |
| th1a | Any other comments before we move on? | 16:47 |
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| yvl | ah, just don't consider my silence on appliance thing as... | 16:47 |
| yvl | well, as a vote against | 16:47 |
| th1a | Silence == consent. ;-) | 16:48 |
| yvl | I'm actually pretty interested in that; also it will do good for our code base | 16:48 |
| yvl | and there are too many comments, most of them probably not interesting to non-developers :) | 16:48 |
| yvl | for example - since the only thing ST requires is hardware + Ubuntu | 16:49 |
| yvl | and Ubuntu runs on many things | 16:49 |
| yvl | people can have hybrid deployments | 16:49 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:49 |
| yvl | some on appliances like Sheeva | 16:49 |
| yvl | some on small crank-powered laptops | 16:50 |
| yvl | "portable ST data collection center", very marketable :) | 16:50 |
| th1a | Some on VM's on a real server. | 16:50 |
| yvl | yep | 16:51 |
| th1a | Partly what I'm trying to work out is akin to changing "Synaptic Package Manager" in to "Ubuntu Software Center." | 16:51 |
| th1a | Just make a technical description into something that makes sense to people used to thinking of products. | 16:52 |
| yvl | I was really happy to read that | 16:52 |
| th1a | OK. Now we can move on, since I've made yvl happy. | 16:52 |
| yvl | :D | 16:52 |
| th1a | This week I'm going to work on documenting interventions, which aside from being my most behind schedule task, I need to do to figure out how we can change interventions to do what David Ally wants. | 16:53 |
| th1a | Which is basically to also have interventions for teachers and the school itself. | 16:54 |
| th1a | e.g., this school needs to raise its attendance rate to 80% by the end of the year. | 16:54 |
| replaceafill | nice | 16:54 |
| th1a | replaceafill: Also, before I forget, I spoke to someone from the US on IRC last week who also wanted what one of your schools wants, | 16:55 |
| replaceafill | ah yes! | 16:55 |
| th1a | the ability to track multiple daily scores (in the journal). | 16:55 |
| replaceafill | journal + cando | 16:55 |
| th1a | I don't think it is really journal + cando. | 16:56 |
| replaceafill | yes, multiple grades is better | 16:56 |
| th1a | More just a journal enhancement. | 16:56 |
| yvl | hmm, make a bug and assign it to me ;) | 16:56 |
| yvl | I'll be touching the way Journal stores data, so... | 16:57 |
| th1a | I'm not sure how we'll do the UI. | 16:57 |
| replaceafill | jelkner asked recently how to put a tardy AND a grade for a student | 16:57 |
| yvl | funny thing - from the code's point of view - this is possible :) | 16:57 |
| th1a | Actually, come to think of it, it's pretty obvious. | 16:57 |
| th1a | *light bulb* | 16:58 |
| th1a | You don't really need to see all the days of the month when you're doing the journal. | 16:58 |
| th1a | That's really just habit from replicating paper journals. | 16:58 |
| th1a | The default view can just be today, with columns for scoring multiple things. | 16:58 |
| jelkner | as long as the monthly attendance view is still a click away, that makes *a lot* of sense | 16:59 |
| aelkner | and the month view would have to go because one couldn't display it all anyore | 16:59 |
| aelkner | i mean, it wouldn't fit on the screen | 17:00 |
| th1a | There are various ways of dealing with it. | 17:00 |
| yvl | yeah | 17:01 |
| th1a | Well, I could assign that to yvl. | 17:02 |
| yvl | thank you :) | 17:02 |
| yvl | (otherwise people will need to wait a few weeks after I put my code in) | 17:02 |
| th1a | OK, moving on to reports: yvl? | 17:03 |
| yvl | hmm | 17:03 |
| yvl | well, I finished the export thingy | 17:04 |
| yvl | I don't remember if I sent developers the link | 17:04 |
| yvl | https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~schooltool-owners/schooltool/database_exporter | 17:05 |
| yvl | here it is | 17:05 |
| yvl | please take a look, it might be interesting | 17:05 |
| yvl | when free time permits | 17:05 |
| yvl | (no tests by the way - it is a hack) | 17:05 |
| yvl | and I'm moving forward with timetables | 17:06 |
| th1a | It is a good hack to have some experience with though. | 17:06 |
| yvl | exactly! | 17:06 |
| yvl | timetabling UI will change there and there | 17:06 |
| yvl | I'm hoping that people won't complain :) | 17:07 |
| yvl | it should be a lot clearer - as well as the code | 17:07 |
| yvl | and this week I'll still be pushing timetables | 17:08 |
| yvl | a difficult birth, to say the least | 17:08 |
| yvl | still - a lot of good experience | 17:08 |
| yvl | well... that's it | 17:08 |
| th1a | It will be good to have that wrapped up. | 17:09 |
| yvl | oh yes. | 17:09 |
| th1a | Thanks, yvl! | 17:09 |
| th1a | menesis? | 17:09 |
| menesis | last week I have uploaded some packages to ubuntu | 17:10 |
| menesis | first, those that had bugs that were not fixed in lucid | 17:10 |
| menesis | but not much. will upload much more this week | 17:11 |
| menesis | am a bit undecided about what to do first - just upload the packages I have, or update schooltool to work with the newer packages I want | 17:11 |
| menesis | since there is very little time left (before feature freeze) | 17:12 |
| th1a | It seems to be that getting things in is most important. | 17:12 |
| menesis | I will upload zope packages that I have. | 17:12 |
| menesis | and upgrade them later, because that will no longer require help from others | 17:13 |
| yvl | hmm | 17:13 |
| yvl | If you want, I can drop whatever I'm doing and help with updating schooltool? | 17:13 |
| yvl | say, on Wed-Thu? | 17:13 |
| th1a | It would help it is ok with me. | 17:14 |
| menesis | I was playing with the tools I have, tried to use mr.developer, but that did not play well with buildbot | 17:14 |
| menesis | looking for a better way to define and test the "SchoolTool KGS" | 17:15 |
| yvl | I see | 17:15 |
| yvl | hmm | 17:15 |
| yvl | if you had the KGS, I could make stuff work with it | 17:15 |
| yvl | at least - preliminary KGS | 17:15 |
| yvl | but I don't know how hard it is to make one | 17:16 |
| menesis | some z3c.* packages do not work with latest ztk/bluebream, so that's more than schooltool | 17:16 |
| menesis | or, rather, their tests fail | 17:16 |
| yvl | can you send me a list? | 17:16 |
| menesis | so I got a bit stuck on this | 17:16 |
| th1a | Well, why don't we upload what works first. | 17:16 |
| menesis | yvl: later | 17:17 |
| yvl | ok | 17:17 |
| yvl | I'm just offering a "helping" hand ;) | 17:17 |
| menesis | th1a: yes, that's the priority, to upload missing packages first | 17:18 |
| th1a | OK. Sounds good to me. | 17:18 |
| th1a | Thanks menesis! | 17:19 |
| th1a | replaceafill? | 17:19 |
| replaceafill | th1a, i just sent javier my latest changes and questions | 17:19 |
| th1a | I saw. | 17:19 |
| replaceafill | i'm planning on having the demo for the gradebook this week | 17:19 |
| replaceafill | i haven't had response on that from them yet | 17:19 |
| replaceafill | but i think i had the calculations right | 17:20 |
| th1a | Just keep giving them things to look at. | 17:20 |
| th1a | I think that's the key at this point. | 17:20 |
| replaceafill | also, dwelsh seems like is ready to update the virginia servers | 17:20 |
| replaceafill | i checked http://book.schooltool.org/htmlhelp/upgrade-lucid.html#notes-on-upgrading-from-hardy-long-term-support-lts-release-to-lucid-lts | 17:21 |
| replaceafill | i will refer him to that one | 17:21 |
| replaceafill | yvl, couple of questions | 17:21 |
| yvl | shoot | 17:22 |
| replaceafill | 1. the zc.datetimewidget | 17:22 |
| replaceafill | do you know of a way of updating its starting month, once it has been created? | 17:22 |
| replaceafill | i mean, after the form has been rendered | 17:22 |
| yvl | sorry, no | 17:23 |
| yvl | but I can look at it tomorrow morning | 17:23 |
| replaceafill | ah ok, i found a Calendar.setup({...}) method | 17:23 |
| replaceafill | but i couldnt have the 'date' parameter to work | 17:23 |
| replaceafill | th1a, i was testing this for the request javier did: once you set the level for the kid, he wants the calendar of the birthdate to set to a specific year | 17:24 |
| yvl | (can you point at the exact code?) | 17:24 |
| replaceafill | yvl, maybe changing to another widget could fix it | 17:24 |
| replaceafill | parts/omelette/zc/datetimewidget/resources/calendar-setup.js | 17:25 |
| replaceafill | and it works, at least for some parameters | 17:25 |
| replaceafill | you can change the input mask, etc | 17:25 |
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| replaceafill | yvl, also 2. unicode in doctests | 17:26 |
| replaceafill | i have the courses in khmer now | 17:26 |
| replaceafill | by default | 17:26 |
| replaceafill | but the tests break obviously | 17:26 |
| replaceafill | so, i was thinking, is there a way to test non-ascii in doctests? | 17:27 |
| replaceafill | i remember asking you this sometime ago, but i remember it didnt work | 17:27 |
| replaceafill | the other option is to set the default data to be an adapter | 17:27 |
| replaceafill | and user a stub for tests :) | 17:27 |
| replaceafill | s/user/use | 17:27 |
| yvl | you can start the doctest comment with r | 17:27 |
| replaceafill | the stub being in english | 17:28 |
| yvl | r""" | 17:28 |
| yvl | >>> python code | 17:28 |
| yvl | result | 17:28 |
| yvl | """ | 17:28 |
| replaceafill | even in a doctestfile? | 17:28 |
| replaceafill | since there you don't have the quotes | 17:28 |
| replaceafill | right? | 17:28 |
| yvl | oh, the .txt | 17:28 |
| yvl | ok, I'll look at how that's done | 17:29 |
| replaceafill | :) | 17:29 |
| replaceafill | th1a, finally | 17:29 |
| replaceafill | i installed zambia for aelkner | 17:29 |
| aelkner | yeah, thanks replaceafill | 17:29 |
| replaceafill | and i wanted to ask you about jelkner | 17:29 |
| replaceafill | he needs some xmlrpc for his app | 17:30 |
| replaceafill | to connect his app with the gradebook | 17:30 |
| th1a | I want you to focus on Cambodia for the moment. | 17:30 |
| replaceafill | got it | 17:30 |
| th1a | Tell him to nag me. | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | :D | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | will do | 17:31 |
| th1a | We'll get to it, just not now. | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | yvl i also have a question about levels, but it's not urgent | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | so i'll leave it for later :) | 17:31 |
| replaceafill | th1a, that's it | 17:31 |
| th1a | Keep aelkner in on levels discussions. | 17:32 |
| yvl | replaceafill, can you email me those 3 questions | 17:32 |
| th1a | thanks replaceafill! | 17:32 |
| yvl | (even the one that's not urgent ;) ) | 17:32 |
| replaceafill | yvl, will do RIGHT NOW | 17:32 |
| replaceafill | or i forget :P | 17:32 |
| yvl | thank you! | 17:32 |
| th1a | aelkner? | 17:32 |
| aelkner | ok, three things to report/discuss | 17:33 |
| aelkner | first, i created schooltool.niepa in my directory | 17:33 |
| aelkner | menesis, how soon could you create a schooltool-niepa package? | 17:33 |
| th1a | After he's got all his packages uploaded to Ubuntu. ;-) | 17:34 |
| aelkner | because that's the way i will deliver changes to David Ally | 17:34 |
| menesis | I would copy the zambia package and search/replace. | 17:34 |
| th1a | aelkner: You can just use a sandbox on our server. | 17:34 |
| menesis | so that's not a lot | 17:34 |
| aelkner | menesis, i did that already | 17:34 |
| aelkner | it just needs a trunk version and a package | 17:35 |
| th1a | I don't think David really wants to manage a server himself right now anyhow. | 17:35 |
| aelkner | also, my search replace might not have included everything needed for final package creation | 17:35 |
| menesis | anyway, I can do a .deb quickly if the source is ready | 17:35 |
| aelkner | it's under my directory | 17:36 |
| th1a | aelkner: In this case you don't need to involve menesis in pushing changes. | 17:36 |
| th1a | Yet. | 17:36 |
| aelkner | th1a, i see | 17:36 |
| aelkner | i just need access to that server and sudo rights | 17:37 |
| aelkner | replaceafill, can you set up an account for me and email signin details? | 17:37 |
| replaceafill | sure | 17:38 |
| aelkner | thanks | 17:38 |
| th1a | You shouldn't even need root to do a sandbox, right? | 17:38 |
| replaceafill | aelkner, you need to install things? | 17:38 |
| replaceafill | like ubuntu packages? | 17:39 |
| aelkner | if i create a sandbox in my home directory, it will download the eggs | 17:39 |
| aelkner | during make, right? | 17:39 |
| aelkner | although, make ubuntu-environment | 17:40 |
| aelkner | needs to be run on that machine, i guess | 17:40 |
| aelkner | sudo make ubuntu-environment, that it | 17:40 |
| aelkner | that is | 17:40 |
| replaceafill | aelkner, i already ran ubuntu-environment | 17:40 |
| aelkner | ok | 17:41 |
| aelkner | i just need the account and server address | 17:41 |
| replaceafill | ok | 17:41 |
| aelkner | anyway, the second thing is that i found a bug in the XLS importer | 17:41 |
| yvl | which one | 17:42 |
| yvl | ? | 17:42 |
| yvl | :) | 17:42 |
| aelkner | unfortunately, i have it setting the person's birth date to an empty string if they enter nothing | 17:42 |
| aelkner | where it should be set to None | 17:42 |
| aelkner | that causes the person view to crash in the birth date widget | 17:43 |
| aelkner | unfortunately, empty strings have no strftime() method (: | 17:43 |
| aelkner | sorry about that th1a | 17:44 |
| aelkner | i think i need to write an evolution script to change empty strings to None | 17:44 |
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| yvl | that should be one-line fix, right? | 17:44 |
| yvl | can we scrap the deployed data? | 17:44 |
| aelkner | and fix the importer to allow for optional dates | 17:45 |
| aelkner | something that wasn't needed with school years and terms | 17:45 |
| aelkner | yvl, what do you mean scrap deployed data? | 17:45 |
| yvl | how many actual databases do we have affected by this? | 17:45 |
| yvl | (if this is an ancient bug, and it's deployed with 1.4 we need evolution) | 17:46 |
| aelkner | as far as i know, Jen is the only customer using the XLS importer | 17:46 |
| th1a | I wouldn't assume nobody is using the XLS importer. | 17:46 |
| th1a | We're kind of past making those kind of assumptions. | 17:47 |
| aelkner | but in theory, we could have any number of customers that we don't about | 17:47 |
| aelkner | right | 17:47 |
| aelkner | so i would need to write the evolution script for person birth dates | 17:47 |
| yvl | ok then, evolution it is | 17:47 |
| yvl | by the way - this is a good example were our importer design is extremely crappy | 17:47 |
| aelkner | i can submit that change together with the change to no longer create the bad birth dates | 17:48 |
| menesis | aelkner: I have fixed this bug in the importer | 17:48 |
| yvl | we do a separate validation logic there and a separate validation logic in web forms | 17:48 |
| aelkner | menesis, you did? | 17:48 |
| yvl | that's a straight way to corrupted data | 17:48 |
| th1a | Don't be too hard on the designer -- the manager didn't give him much time. | 17:48 |
| yvl | don't get me wrong | 17:48 |
| menesis | well I changed importer to get birth date as Date, not Text | 17:48 |
| menesis | as it was before | 17:49 |
| yvl | It's good to have at least this | 17:49 |
| menesis | then I re-imported the xls and all worked again | 17:49 |
| aelkner | menesis, but we still need to evolve | 17:49 |
| aelkner | for instance, Jen has already imported and I don't know if she was using your fix | 17:50 |
| aelkner | menesis, is that fix in the latest egg? | 17:50 |
| th1a | If it is a simple evolution, we should add it anyhow. | 17:51 |
| menesis | schooltool-1.0.6 and schooltool-1.4.2.1 don't have this problem | 17:51 |
| yvl | oh, so the bug is not "live" | 17:52 |
| yvl | then scrap evolution | 17:52 |
| yvl | simple script is enough | 17:52 |
| aelkner | i don't see the fix in the schooltool-1.5 egg | 17:52 |
| menesis | it was broken between july 15 and july 22 in lucid packages | 17:52 |
| menesis | if people were still using hardy then they are ok | 17:53 |
| menesis | I have not made a new development release. but the latest dev egg is ok. | 17:53 |
| aelkner | it sounds like the evolution script is the safest way to go | 17:54 |
| aelkner | it can simply check for empty string and replace with None | 17:54 |
| yvl | I suggest to practice the db repair scripts :) | 17:54 |
| yvl | the experience will be useful | 17:54 |
| menesis | so someone has broken Person views after they imported? | 17:55 |
| menesis | or not | 17:55 |
| yvl | remember the email with "new helper script"? | 17:55 |
| aelkner | isn't that technology for fixing a given instance, not all instances in the field | 17:55 |
| yvl | yep | 17:55 |
| yvl | seriously - the bug persisted for 7 days | 17:55 |
| yvl | the importer bug | 17:56 |
| th1a | Oh... it wasn't there from the beginning? | 17:56 |
| aelkner | it was always there | 17:56 |
| aelkner | ok, maybe not, maybe it required a date before | 17:57 |
| aelkner | i don't remember off hand | 17:57 |
| menesis | it was getDate, your importer_fixes branch changed it to getText | 17:57 |
| menesis | I changed back | 17:57 |
| th1a | Ah. | 17:58 |
| aelkner | ok | 17:58 |
| menesis | and released all branches with this fixed | 17:58 |
| aelkner | so i just need to do a bin/buildout -n in my sandbox and reimport? | 17:59 |
| menesis | yes | 17:59 |
| aelkner | ok, will do, perhaps Jen never ran into this | 17:59 |
| aelkner | maybe she missed the 7 day window of vulnerability | 18:00 |
| aelkner | i'm ok with holding off on the evolution script until we get a bug report | 18:00 |
| aelkner | it may never come, so we'd be in the clear | 18:00 |
| replaceafill | aelkner, just sent you the login data | 18:00 |
| aelkner | replaceafill, thanks | 18:00 |
| th1a | replaceafill, How's the timetable report coming? | 18:01 |
| aelkner | the third thing to report is that i wrote the teachers timetable view | 18:01 |
| replaceafill | th1a, ? | 18:01 |
| aelkner | but i have a couple of issues with it that perhaps are best discussed on the phone after the meeting? | 18:01 |
| th1a | I mean, aelkner. | 18:01 |
| replaceafill | :) | 18:01 |
| th1a | aelkner, OK. | 18:02 |
| th1a | Can you send me a screenshot? | 18:02 |
| th1a | All right then. Thanks gentlemen! | 18:02 |
| yvl | please CC me | 18:02 |
| th1a | Have a great week! | 18:02 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 18:02 | |
| yvl | and a link to the code, if possible | 18:02 |
| yvl | happy coding guys :) | 18:02 |
| replaceafill | yvl, just sent you my 3 questions :) | 18:02 |
| yvl | (and happy managing th1a ;) ) | 18:02 |
| yvl | got them | 18:02 |
| replaceafill | thanks guys | 18:02 |
| yvl | will reply first thing tomorrow | 18:02 |
| yvl | gotta run ;) | 18:03 |
| replaceafill | thanks yvl | 18:03 |
| aelkner | great week everyone | 18:03 |
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| th1a | aelkner: http://www.amazon.com/Visual-Display-Quantitative-Information-2nd/dp/0961392142/ref=sr_1_1 | 18:22 |
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