| *** jelkner has joined #schooltool | 00:32 | |
| *** jelkner_ has joined #schooltool | 00:44 | |
| *** dlobo has joined #schooltool | 01:16 | |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 01:41 | |
| *** dlobo has joined #schooltool | 01:41 | |
| *** dlobo_ has joined #schooltool | 01:43 | |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 01:43 | |
| *** dlobo_ is now known as dlobo | 01:43 | |
| *** jelkner has quit IRC | 01:46 | |
| *** alga has joined #schooltool | 02:27 | |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 02:27 | |
| *** jelkner_ has quit IRC | 02:28 | |
| *** ignas has quit IRC | 03:16 | |
| *** dlobo has joined #schooltool | 03:44 | |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 03:47 | |
| *** dlobo has joined #schooltool | 04:02 | |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 04:08 | |
| *** alga has quit IRC | 04:45 | |
| *** pcardune has quit IRC | 04:50 | |
| *** dlobo has joined #schooltool | 05:05 | |
| *** menesis1 has quit IRC | 06:41 | |
| *** pcardune has joined #schooltool | 06:59 | |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 08:37 | |
| *** pcardune has quit IRC | 08:38 | |
| *** DasEi has joined #schooltool | 08:44 | |
| *** pcardune has joined #schooltool | 09:08 | |
| *** alga has joined #schooltool | 09:46 | |
| *** pcardune has quit IRC | 09:59 | |
| *** DasEi has quit IRC | 10:07 | |
| *** ignas has joined #schooltool | 10:30 | |
| *** mgedmin has joined #schooltool | 13:05 | |
| *** alga has quit IRC | 13:37 | |
| *** jelkner has joined #schooltool | 14:01 | |
| *** jelkner has quit IRC | 14:04 | |
| *** jelkner has joined #schooltool | 14:05 | |
| *** jelkner has quit IRC | 14:26 | |
| *** jelkner has joined #schooltool | 14:26 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 14:51 | |
| *** alga has joined #schooltool | 14:56 | |
| *** th1a has joined #schooltool | 16:03 | |
| th1a | yvl: ayt? | 16:16 |
|---|---|---|
| *** replaceafill has joined #schooltool | 16:16 | |
| *** yvl has joined #schooltool | 16:36 | |
| *** dlobo has joined #schooltool | 16:37 | |
| th1a | Hey guys. | 16:38 |
| th1a | We have a problem. | 16:38 |
| yvl | good morning | 16:39 |
| yvl | listening, th1a | 16:39 |
| th1a | http://www.camemis.com/ | 16:40 |
| replaceafill | CAMEMIS for Cambodia! | 16:41 |
| th1a | Ach. | 16:41 |
| th1a | Competing with a local product will be tough, even with a considerable head start. | 16:42 |
| yvl | it's not for us or for them to decide | 16:43 |
| th1a | Right. | 16:43 |
| yvl | everything will be done as DoP / MoEYS decides | 16:43 |
| yvl | at least thats my point of view for Cambodia ;) | 16:43 |
| th1a | Yes, I'm just saying, we've got to push in a way we haven't before. | 16:44 |
| th1a | As in, perhaps we should drop everything and start working on the Cambodia skin. | 16:45 |
| th1a | aelkner: You awake? | 16:45 |
| th1a | Right now they have the advantage of the setup working more how Javier imagines it. | 16:46 |
| yvl | good points, th1a | 16:48 |
| th1a | This is far more important than anything else right now. | 16:49 |
| * yvl nods in agreement | 16:51 | |
| th1a | OK. | 16:52 |
| th1a | Hm. | 16:52 |
| *** alga has quit IRC | 16:52 | |
| th1a | I think we should shoot for having a demo skin running in a week. | 16:52 |
| * yvl starts walking around the room, thinking... | 16:54 | |
| yvl | (on details) | 16:54 |
| th1a | Switching into fast: I'm delivering a product for a customer mode instead of slow, universally flexible open source project mode. | 16:54 |
| yvl | for a limited period of time, I hope | 16:55 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:55 |
| yvl | but at least for now, it would totally make sense | 16:55 |
| th1a | But we've done that before, at SLA. | 16:55 |
| yvl | and at least from reading/thinking/looking at Cambodia case I was kind of hoping to sell that idea to you | 16:56 |
| yvl | but, as you raised it first... :)) | 16:56 |
| th1a | It is the obvious thing to do. | 16:57 |
| yvl | ok then. we start Monday? | 16:57 |
| yvl | coding part. | 16:57 |
| th1a | OTOH, it is not like "add student" forms are exotic. | 16:58 |
| yvl | I still have some pieces of puzzle missing + a little bit tired and could use a weekend's rest | 16:58 |
| yvl | (a little bit = I will fall down if I don't get a lot of sleep) | 16:59 |
| th1a | I will try to write a spec today. | 16:59 |
| yvl | (hectic week) | 16:59 |
| th1a | Yes, understood. Same here. | 16:59 |
| th1a | Perhaps you could do some of the boilerplate setup for the skin, new branch, etc. | 16:59 |
| yvl | yes, Fri or Mon before weekly meet | 17:00 |
| yvl | start from that, then parts that obviously make sense | 17:00 |
| yvl | if you can get any design done before Fri morning in LT, please send my way | 17:02 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:02 |
| th1a | I'm thinking super-minimal. | 17:02 |
| yvl | "unorganized thoughts" format is very welcome | 17:02 |
| * yvl too | 17:02 | |
| yvl | I bet I can get the minimal version in few days ;) | 17:02 |
| th1a | Also, probably more hand-coded templates than usual? | 17:03 |
| th1a | Well, maybe. | 17:03 |
| yvl | yeah, but that's to be expected | 17:03 |
| th1a | Just less "well, it has to be that way because of how x.zope.forms whatever works" | 17:04 |
| yvl | I mean, they *want* *zero* abstractions | 17:04 |
| yvl | and that will reflect in the way its developed | 17:04 |
| yvl | time for "whatever works!" approach | 17:04 |
| yvl | well clean up the mess, if needed, later on | 17:05 |
| yvl | by mess I mean something evolved, like Interventions | 17:05 |
| yvl | anyway, I think we're on the same page here :) | 17:06 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:06 |
| th1a | I can't seem to log into their demo. | 17:06 |
| th1a | That's why we don't have a demo -- they're a pain in the ass! | 17:06 |
| yvl | works for me | 17:07 |
| replaceafill | for me too | 17:07 |
| yvl | phew, situation is not as bad as it looked half an hour ago | 17:21 |
| replaceafill | yvl, after looking at their demo? | 17:22 |
| yvl | yes, it kind of calmed me down :) | 17:22 |
| replaceafill | i think it doens't do anything that schooltool can't, right? | 17:22 |
| th1a | Actually looking at other people's SIS's usually calms me down. | 17:22 |
| replaceafill | :) | 17:22 |
| yvl | yes, replaceafill | 17:22 |
| th1a | They're more frightening in my imagination. | 17:22 |
| th1a | I am worried though because they've got local connections. | 17:23 |
| th1a | That counts for a lot. | 17:23 |
| th1a | And that is why we need to respond quickly. | 17:23 |
| yvl | - local connections | 17:23 |
| yvl | - potential "marketing" speed | 17:23 |
| th1a | Also, less scary PHP. | 17:23 |
| yvl | - potential php/Joomla community developers | 17:23 |
| th1a | Right. | 17:23 |
| yvl | - and it looks pretty (JavaScript + CSS well polished) | 17:24 |
| yvl | then again. | 17:24 |
| yvl | implementation | 17:24 |
| th1a | PHP SIS's seem to run into walls though. | 17:24 |
| yvl | yes :) | 17:24 |
| th1a | I'm thinking less polished JS and CSS frankly. | 17:24 |
| th1a | (for us) | 17:24 |
| yvl | yes | 17:24 |
| yvl | and it should stay less polished | 17:25 |
| th1a | Exactly. | 17:25 |
| yvl | why would anyone bother dragging a: | 17:25 |
| yvl | POP UP. FORM SUBMITTED. | 17:25 |
| yvl | with | 17:25 |
| yvl | OK BUTTON | 17:25 |
| yvl | seriously | 17:25 |
| yvl | what is wrong with these Windows developers | 17:25 |
| th1a | I guess we can keep our regular top "tabs" | 17:26 |
| yvl | (and mandatory phone / email fields for the win) | 17:26 |
| th1a | "Manage" still works. | 17:26 |
| th1a | I'm still ok with "Manage" giving you a plain list of tasks. | 17:26 |
| th1a | But it should be a different list. | 17:26 |
| th1a | replaceafill, So Javier's initial feed back focused on -- as tends to happen -- initial setup, and SchoolTool exposing too many abstractions. | 17:27 |
| th1a | e.g., "Add Person" rather than "Add Student" "Add Teacher" etc. | 17:28 |
| replaceafill | ah! | 17:28 |
| yvl | excellent | 17:29 |
| th1a | So that's the kind of thing where to him it is a big difference in usability (and in practice it may be), but in reality is it just a few forms. | 17:29 |
| yvl | exactly | 17:29 |
| th1a | And presumably we can do things like pre-load (or even fetch remotely) school year definitions, etc. | 17:29 |
| th1a | Or import from a file. | 17:30 |
| yvl | th1a, do you have Javiers comments in some forwardable form? | 17:30 |
| th1a | I forwarded them to you, right? | 17:31 |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 17:31 | |
| th1a | I was just discussing privately with replaceafill the question of making a draft proposal public -- i.e., we shouldn't do that. | 17:31 |
| th1a | I'll derive a spec from it. | 17:31 |
| yvl | oh, wait, Javier | 17:32 |
| yvl | yes you did :) | 17:32 |
| yvl | by the way, I look at every such example (like CAMEMIS) as proof of concept of ST as SIS | 17:38 |
| yvl | or SIS framework (though framework is *very* inaccurate in this case) | 17:39 |
| th1a | Iinaccurate to them or us? | 17:39 |
| yvl | for us | 17:39 |
| th1a | There's only so many ways to do it. | 17:39 |
| yvl | because we are kind of a framework | 17:39 |
| yvl | for the lack of the better word | 17:39 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:39 |
| th1a | "Kind of." | 17:40 |
| yvl | yes | 17:40 |
| yvl | there's a lot of effort in the world to build cheap durable SIS's suited for a certain education system | 17:40 |
| th1a | That's the way it has always been done. | 17:41 |
| th1a | The question is: Can we do it differently? | 17:42 |
| yvl | its not like we're first ones who tried | 17:42 |
| yvl | making universal extendible SIS | 17:42 |
| yvl | I think it's possible | 17:43 |
| yvl | just not the way everyone starts doing that | 17:43 |
| th1a | I'm not sure that anyone else has really tried. | 17:43 |
| yvl | basically - doing it right is just too darn expensive | 17:43 |
| th1a | There's no business case for an intercontinental SIS. | 17:43 |
| yvl | well, you can sell/licence it to Ministries of Education or something | 17:44 |
| yvl | as a "cheaper alternative to fully developing your own" | 17:45 |
| th1a | That's not a good business. | 17:45 |
| th1a | As philanthropy, it might work. | 17:45 |
| th1a | Nationally or regionally, it can work. | 17:45 |
| th1a | As a business. | 17:45 |
| yvl | that's my understanding also | 17:46 |
| yvl | "too expensive" - I meant investment will not pay off | 17:46 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:47 |
| yvl | ok then | 17:48 |
| yvl | aelkner seems to be still asleep | 17:48 |
| yvl | (he did great job writing security tests by the way) | 17:48 |
| th1a | Good news. | 17:49 |
| yvl | oh, and also uncovered an interesting design problem | 17:49 |
| yvl | that kind of strongly pushes my opinion on API of extending certain information to favor one of few designs I had in mind | 17:50 |
| yvl | it can be fixed quite easily | 17:50 |
| th1a | The more I think about this, the fewer changes I think are necessary -- primarily just making as much confusing stuff (years, timetables, etc.) as pre-configured as possible. | 17:50 |
| yvl | you still have to be ready to rip any stuff out | 17:51 |
| yvl | and add stuff ontop of other stuff | 17:51 |
| th1a | Right. | 17:51 |
| yvl | and replace where necessary | 17:51 |
| yvl | but preconfigured - yes, a good choice | 17:51 |
| th1a | But, it is not so much once you start to break it down. | 17:51 |
| yvl | I've tried to gather the bits and pieces of ST development for a while now | 17:52 |
| yvl | the "ripping" and "replacing" part is more and more important | 17:52 |
| yvl | it's been done in so many ways now... | 17:53 |
| th1a | We've got lots of experience. | 17:53 |
| yvl | anyway, the more real life scenarios we get | 17:53 |
| yvl | the more likely we're to develop (or should I say pick?) a right mechanism for the "flexable customization" | 17:54 |
| yvl | common grounds of administrating a schoool - very difficult field, as it turns out | 17:55 |
| yvl | okay, enough rambling from me ;) | 17:56 |
| yvl | will get some rest and start doing stuff tomorrow | 17:56 |
| th1a | OK. Thanks yvl. | 17:58 |
| * th1a goes to get some cold grilled pizza out of the fridge for lunch. | 17:59 | |
| replaceafill | :p | 17:59 |
| *** replaceafill has quit IRC | 18:22 | |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 18:30 | |
| *** pcardune has joined #schooltool | 18:31 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 18:33 | |
| *** replaceafill has joined #schooltool | 18:35 | |
| aelkner | yvl, replaceafill: helo? | 19:49 |
| replaceafill | hey aelkner | 19:50 |
| aelkner | uh, i had my alarm set, but for some reason, i thought i needed to snooze more or something | 19:51 |
| replaceafill | :/ | 19:51 |
| aelkner | here it is i schedule a meeting, and then i don't show! | 19:51 |
| replaceafill | :D | 19:52 |
| replaceafill | but you have all our conversation logged, right? | 19:52 |
| aelkner | yes | 19:53 |
| aelkner | i wanted to talk to yvl about our security problem | 19:53 |
| replaceafill | oh yes, i noticed he talked about a design issue | 19:54 |
| aelkner | yeah,you remember how we decided to let people (including students) see messages and goals | 19:55 |
| replaceafill | yes | 19:55 |
| aelkner | that they were on the person_responsible list | 19:55 |
| aelkner | but they still weren't allowed to see the student data itself? | 19:56 |
| aelkner | becuase they didn't teach or advise the student | 19:56 |
| replaceafill | :O | 19:56 |
| aelkner | for instnace, the student can see such messages, but he can't see the parent containers where | 19:57 |
| aelkner | one adds new goals and messages | 19:57 |
| *** dlobo has joined #schooltool | 19:57 | |
| replaceafill | and the student gets an error? | 19:58 |
| aelkner | yup, and the teacher, too is he is no longer a teacher or advisor of the student | 19:58 |
| aelkner | you see, travesing to the message app-?intervention root->intervention student->messages->message | 19:59 |
| aelkner | goes though intervention student and messages which are not allowed | 19:59 |
| aelkner | so i suggested using traversal adapters though trusted proxies | 19:59 |
| aelkner | student>year proxy>messages proxy>message | 20:00 |
| replaceafill | i thought that if you have A->B->C->D and the principal has permission to see D, he can access it even if he doesn't have permissions for A, B or C | 20:00 |
| aelkner | i'm not sure about the rules there, but i know that it fails accessing __getitem__ of the student | 20:02 |
| aelkner | and we want to block such users from seeing what a student for intervention data | 20:03 |
| aelkner | they should only be able to see the messages and goal they belong to | 20:04 |
| aelkner | anyway, yvl agreed with my traversal idea | 20:04 |
| replaceafill | :) | 20:04 |
| aelkner | i was just hopeing to discuss this during the meeting which i myself scheduled and missed (: | 20:04 |
| aelkner | how about you? | 20:05 |
| aelkner | how's it gong? | 20:05 |
| replaceafill | i'm working in the competency resume for cando | 20:06 |
| replaceafill | porting it to the new pdf generation system | 20:06 |
| aelkner | i spoke wth elkner last night, and he said you were visiting a school that may serve as pilot? | 20:07 |
| aelkner | how did the meeting go? | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | yes | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | they are *really* interested :) | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | i'm preparing some demo data for them | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | i mean, in spanish | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | with salvadorean courses and content | 20:07 |
| aelkner | nice | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | so they can see it better | 20:07 |
| aelkner | :) | 20:08 |
| replaceafill | and today i found salvadorean competencies! | 20:08 |
| aelkner | so are they shooting for this Fall> | 20:08 |
| aelkner | ? | 20:08 |
| replaceafill | they want it asap | 20:08 |
| aelkner | they could still use it this year? | 20:09 |
| replaceafill | yes | 20:09 |
| replaceafill | it's because they have nothing! | 20:09 |
| aelkner | isn't the school year too far along to begin using it? | 20:09 |
| replaceafill | they started two weeks ago | 20:09 |
| replaceafill | we start in january | 20:09 |
| replaceafill | and finish in november | 20:09 |
| aelkner | oh, i see | 20:09 |
| aelkner | then the time is now :) | 20:09 |
| replaceafill | :) | 20:10 |
| replaceafill | that's why even marcela is helping me collecting "real" stuff to put in a demo :D | 20:10 |
| aelkner | cool | 20:11 |
| *** pcardune has quit IRC | 20:39 | |
| *** jelkner has quit IRC | 20:49 | |
| *** replaceafill has quit IRC | 20:52 | |
| *** alga has joined #schooltool | 22:15 | |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 23:02 | |
| *** pcardune has joined #schooltool | 23:02 | |
| *** pcardune_ has joined #schooltool | 23:22 | |
| *** pcardune has quit IRC | 23:26 | |
| *** pcardune_ is now known as pcardune | 23:26 | |
| *** replaceafill has joined #schooltool | 23:42 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!