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| mgedmin | any recent buildbot breakages, e.g. with coverage report publishing? | 14:31 |
|---|---|---|
| yvl | none that I'm aware of | 14:34 |
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| th1a | Good morning yvl, menesis, aelkner, jelkner, moquist. | 16:32 |
| aelkner | morning | 16:32 |
| menesis | hi | 16:32 |
| yvl | hi th1a | 16:32 |
| th1a | aelkner: Do you remember what time you're getting into Providence on Thursday? | 16:32 |
| aelkner | let me check | 16:33 |
| th1a | yvl: How are you doing? | 16:33 |
| aelkner | Arrive in PROVIDENCE RI (PVD) at 12:20 PM | 16:33 |
| th1a | aelkner: Ah... ok, you're probably going to have to take a cab to my house, but we can discuss that later. | 16:34 |
| aelkner | no prob | 16:34 |
| yvl | th1a, I'm currently finishing an email on SchoolTool versions | 16:34 |
| yvl | highlites: | 16:35 |
| yvl | 2009.04 will be renamed to 1.0 | 16:35 |
| yvl | we'll release several versions of schooltool codebase packages in Karmic | 16:35 |
| yvl | I suggest to rename schooltool-2009 to simply schooltool | 16:36 |
| yvl | (people are *forced* to upgrade, so why not do that automatically with each release) | 16:36 |
| yvl | and add schooltool-edge | 16:36 |
| yvl | (as Launchpad edge :) | 16:37 |
| yvl | CanDo will depend on SchoolTool 1.0 | 16:37 |
| th1a | Well... | 16:37 |
| yvl | yes? | 16:37 |
| th1a | In the longer run we can't really force people to upgrade. | 16:37 |
| th1a | That's why we have schooltool-2009 etc. | 16:38 |
| yvl | well, we should at least drop support | 16:38 |
| th1a | Well... | 16:38 |
| th1a | depends on how you define "support" | 16:39 |
| yvl | we can have schooltool with SchoolTool 1.2 codebase in Karmic | 16:39 |
| yvl | and schooltool with SchoolTool 1.4 codebase in Karmic+1 | 16:39 |
| yvl | it's not that we support schooltool-2007... | 16:39 |
| yvl | support as in "provide bugfixes and keep older releases in newer Ubuntu versions" | 16:39 |
| th1a | The use case to keep in mind here is that once we have a serious production user base, people won't want to and shouldn't be upgrading in the middle of the year. | 16:40 |
| menesis | schooltool-2009 is the same as schooltool-2008, just because the year is different. if we instead name them schooltool and schooltool-1.2 then we don't have to do a new package if there are no incompatible changes | 16:40 |
| yvl | well, we can provide with "points of upgrade" once we have a stable user base | 16:42 |
| yvl | as far as I'm aware, there is no difference between schooltool-2008 and schooltool-2009 | 16:42 |
| th1a | OK, so we just have "schooltool" ... | 16:42 |
| th1a | The 2008/2009 thing is misleading because we started implementing our idea at the time for versions before it made sense to. | 16:43 |
| th1a | That is, there was no reason for anybody to stay at 2008. | 16:43 |
| th1a | It would have been like staying at beta1 and refusing to upgrade to 1.0. | 16:43 |
| yvl | ture | 16:44 |
| yvl | *true | 16:44 |
| th1a | So that muddied what we intended. | 16:44 |
| th1a | OK, so we just have schooltool, and we put the new version in the new version of ubuntu, and if you want to upgrade you upgrade your whole system? | 16:45 |
| yvl | we'll, my short-term goal is to have one thing stable for school deployment, and another for our edge users, that like new features a lot | 16:45 |
| yvl | yes | 16:45 |
| th1a | Well, that's probably most straightforward. | 16:46 |
| th1a | Also another good reason to recommend using SchoolTool on a virtual machine. | 16:46 |
| yvl | true | 16:47 |
| th1a | I suppose that makes sense. | 16:47 |
| yvl | well, if we do some major UI remaking or something like introduction of SchoolYears | 16:48 |
| yvl | we can always release a schooltool version with a different name and keep it for, say, a year | 16:48 |
| yvl | then drop the support and release it under "schooltool" | 16:49 |
| yvl | the timeline would be | 16:49 |
| yvl | "schooltool" -> 1.2 | 16:49 |
| yvl | and "schooltool-1.4" -> 1.4 | 16:49 |
| yvl | you are free to chose what you use | 16:49 |
| yvl | and then after a year | 16:49 |
| yvl | "schooltool" -> 1.4 | 16:49 |
| yvl | or something like that | 16:49 |
| yvl | but I doubt that we will have much problems, at least for a forthcoming year | 16:50 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:50 |
| yvl | people don't usualy upgrade their servers in a middle of the year, do they? | 16:50 |
| th1a | No. | 16:51 |
| yvl | ok then, I'll send the details when I clean them up | 16:51 |
| th1a | I think you've got it right. | 16:51 |
| yvl | ok... | 16:51 |
| yvl | to my shame, I didn't finish with security yet :| | 16:52 |
| th1a | Get cracking. | 16:52 |
| yvl | ok | 16:52 |
| yvl | one of the things I looked into (didn't eat too much time) | 16:52 |
| yvl | was ability to display what access rights are required when you're redirected to the login page | 16:53 |
| yvl | and I didn't find a way to make ir reliable | 16:53 |
| yvl | that totally ruined my day :) | 16:54 |
| th1a | Well, worth a day, probably. | 16:54 |
| yvl | the best thing we can do | 16:54 |
| yvl | is to show what rights are needed to look at the object the page is bound to | 16:54 |
| yvl | but some of the redirects happen because *other* objects are modified on the same page | 16:55 |
| yvl | and that would confuse the users | 16:56 |
| th1a | Ah. | 16:56 |
| yvl | maybe | 16:56 |
| th1a | Well, it might be useful for debugging to be able to see that. | 16:56 |
| th1a | Is the data accurate, but confusing? | 16:56 |
| yvl | yes | 16:56 |
| yvl | the confusing part: we see what permissions we need for the object the page is bound to | 16:57 |
| yvl | but not the permissions that caused the log-in | 16:57 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:57 |
| th1a | So it is accurate but incomplete ;-) | 16:57 |
| yvl | Imagine how annoying this can get :) | 16:57 |
| th1a | Sure. | 16:58 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:58 |
| th1a | Anything else yvl? | 16:58 |
| yvl | you are sure you have all the permissions, and even the login page says so... | 16:58 |
| yvl | one more thing | 16:58 |
| yvl | should I write an email what more is needed to have schooltool.intervention package? | 16:58 |
| yvl | or comment on Launchpad? | 16:58 |
| yvl | I'll need to check something, it will take 2-3 hours | 16:59 |
| yvl | (I don't have SLA checkout running, etc.) | 16:59 |
| th1a | I believe aelkner needs that info. | 17:00 |
| th1a | He's got some other changes to make as well. | 17:00 |
| aelkner | what do you need exactly | 17:00 |
| aelkner | ? | 17:00 |
| yvl | hmm | 17:01 |
| yvl | build an egg | 17:01 |
| aelkner | why do you mention SLA? | 17:01 |
| aelkner | we don't need an egg for that | 17:01 |
| aelkner | just for schooltool.intervention | 17:01 |
| yvl | and we need to clean up SLA, riht? | 17:01 |
| yvl | to work with shcooltool.intervention | 17:02 |
| aelkner | i thought i already did that | 17:02 |
| yvl | not in trunk | 17:02 |
| yvl | I think I need to merge that | 17:02 |
| th1a | SLA will only be used at SLA. | 17:02 |
| aelkner | i made a merge request | 17:02 |
| aelkner | did you get it? | 17:02 |
| th1a | (in case that wasn't clear) | 17:02 |
| yvl | sorry, my email is a bit of a mess now | 17:03 |
| aelkner | i made my own sla branch that cleaned up sla and requested a merge | 17:03 |
| yvl | maybe I missed it | 17:03 |
| aelkner | let me check myself | 17:03 |
| yvl | (there are some missing or marked as read emails after moving mail to another server here at POV) | 17:04 |
| yvl | th1a, will schooltool.intervention ship with SchoolTool 1.2? | 17:04 |
| yvl | Karmice | 17:05 |
| yvl | *Karmic | 17:05 |
| th1a | That is my intention. | 17:05 |
| aelkner | https://code.launchpad.net/~aelkner/schooltool/schooltool.sla_august_fixes | 17:05 |
| th1a | That's the goal. | 17:05 |
| aelkner | is ready for review for merging | 17:05 |
| aelkner | to sla trunk of course | 17:05 |
| yvl | damn, I missed it | 17:05 |
| yvl | sorry, aelkner | 17:05 |
| aelkner | no prob | 17:05 |
| yvl | ok | 17:06 |
| yvl | so, we need to build an egg | 17:06 |
| aelkner | not for sla | 17:06 |
| yvl | no, for schooltool.intervention | 17:06 |
| aelkner | right | 17:06 |
| yvl | and add dependency on it in... umm... schooltool.gradebook? | 17:06 |
| yvl | or schooltool.stapp2008fall ? | 17:07 |
| aelkner | yep | 17:07 |
| aelkner | i don't know about that one | 17:07 |
| aelkner | isn't schooltool.gradebook enough? | 17:07 |
| yvl | well, it depends | 17:07 |
| yvl | is schooltool.intervention absolutely necessary for schooltool.gradebook to work? | 17:08 |
| yvl | if yes -> schooltool.gradebook | 17:08 |
| aelkner | definely not | 17:08 |
| yvl | if no -> schooltool.stapp2008fall | 17:08 |
| aelkner | schooltool.gradebook is absolutely necessary for schooltool.interfention to work | 17:08 |
| yvl | oh | 17:08 |
| aelkner | that's the dependency | 17:09 |
| aelkner | i thought that's what you meant above | 17:09 |
| yvl | ok, so I'll add the dependency in schooltool.intervention package then | 17:09 |
| yvl | and schooltool.stapp2008fall | 17:09 |
| yvl | thanks, aelkner | 17:10 |
| aelkner | why the second? | 17:10 |
| yvl | I know what to do now | 17:10 |
| aelkner | i don't understand why you mention stapp2008fall | 17:10 |
| yvl | so that it gets included in SchoolTool Karmic release | 17:10 |
| menesis | schooltool.intervention package is created and the egg made, in releases/nightly | 17:10 |
| menesis | a few weeks ago | 17:10 |
| yvl | buildbot? | 17:10 |
| menesis | the dependecy on intervention has to be added to SLA but that's done in the branch I suppose | 17:11 |
| yvl | still TBD, as far as I know? | 17:11 |
| yvl | (schooltool.intervention buildbot) | 17:11 |
| aelkner | sla is dependent on schooltool.intervention and | 17:12 |
| aelkner | schooltool.intervention is dependent on schooltool.gradebook | 17:12 |
| aelkner | as for the stapp2008fall part, i don't know what you do with that | 17:13 |
| aelkner | i would think that is not dependent on any of those other packages | 17:13 |
| yvl | umm, we will need stapp2008fall to depend on schooltool.intervention | 17:13 |
| yvl | as it is the "installable server" thingy | 17:14 |
| yvl | that is also dependent on schooltool.lyceum.journal and schooltool.gradebook | 17:14 |
| yvl | so that the users get everything | 17:14 |
| aelkner | well, you guys know what the packaging requirements are | 17:15 |
| th1a | Does that make sense, aelkner? | 17:15 |
| menesis | yvl: intervention is also in buildbot (pov-schooltool_trunk-buildout) | 17:15 |
| yvl | umm, not http://source.schooltool.org/buildbot/waterfall ? | 17:16 |
| aelkner | i don't know the details of what goes on in the packaging area | 17:16 |
| aelkner | or the buildbot | 17:16 |
| th1a | stapp... is dependent on everything that is included in a standard installation. | 17:16 |
| aelkner | so that includes schooltool.intervention now, right? | 17:16 |
| th1a | That's the point. | 17:17 |
| yvl | no, and we'll fix it :) | 17:17 |
| aelkner | well then i guess it makes sense | 17:17 |
| aelkner | by now, i meant when you fix it, that was inplied :) | 17:17 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:17 |
| th1a | Moving on then? | 17:17 |
| menesis | yes | 17:17 |
| aelkner | fine | 17:17 |
| th1a | OK, more project management and translation reorganization then... | 17:18 |
| th1a | menesis: Did you see replaceafill's spanish diff for the website? | 17:18 |
| menesis | th1a: yes.. | 17:19 |
| th1a | Do you know how to do different translations on Apache? | 17:19 |
| menesis | not really, but something like name the file index.es.html and enable some option | 17:20 |
| th1a | Yes. Something like that. | 17:20 |
| * th1a waves his hands. | 17:21 | |
| th1a | Could you have a shot at that? | 17:21 |
| menesis | yes | 17:21 |
| th1a | Thank you. | 17:21 |
| th1a | Perhaps we can stick links to the different translations in the red bar or something. | 17:21 |
| th1a | I'll think about it after we get it working. | 17:22 |
| th1a | Next... | 17:22 |
| th1a | menesis is recommending splitting the major packages in SchoolTool into their own projects. | 17:22 |
| th1a | I'd say this would also require us to turn "SchoolTool" into a Launchpad "super project." | 17:23 |
| menesis | in launchpad | 17:23 |
| th1a | Or make a "The SchoolTool Project." | 17:23 |
| th1a | Yes... this is all just in terms of Launchpad. | 17:23 |
| th1a | I'd rather not complexify things in this way... particularly the bug tracking aspect makes me cringe. | 17:24 |
| th1a | But, it clarifies how we manage translations, apparently. | 17:24 |
| th1a | menesis: Care to elaborate? | 17:24 |
| menesis | ok | 17:24 |
| menesis | translations is one problem. we could merge all translations is another solution | 17:25 |
| menesis | the other is Code | 17:25 |
| menesis | our branches are named like lp:~schooltool-owners/schooltool/schooltool.gradebook-0.4 | 17:26 |
| menesis | the last part has to be invented | 17:26 |
| menesis | what I want is to host all code on launchpad | 17:26 |
| menesis | and have clear urls | 17:26 |
| menesis | lp:schooltool.gradebook/0.4 | 17:26 |
| menesis | for this we need a schooltool.gradebook project on launchpad | 17:27 |
| menesis | and then a "Project Group" | 17:27 |
| menesis | I don't think we can use lp.net/schooltool for that | 17:28 |
| th1a | If we can solve our short term translation problem by merging the translations, I'd rather do that now. | 17:28 |
| menesis | so we create a launchpad.net/schooltool-project | 17:28 |
| menesis | and add all subprojects to it | 17:28 |
| th1a | I'm afraid complexifying our Launchpad site will cut down on useful user feedback, which would be very bad. | 17:29 |
| menesis | it is easy to overview all bugs and code | 17:29 |
| menesis | because the umbrella project aggregates everything from subprojects | 17:29 |
| menesis | see https://launchpad.net/cando-project vs. https://launchpad.net/cando | 17:29 |
| th1a | OK. I guess it is not so bad. | 17:30 |
| th1a | Well, I guess we can do the super/sub project route. | 17:31 |
| menesis | so it's not much more complexity. users may not know which project is responsible for the bug they see... they report to schooltool but for us it's easy to change the project to schooltool.gradebook when we triage the bugs | 17:32 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:32 |
| th1a | So I need to request a super-project. | 17:32 |
| th1a | Any other concerns about this? | 17:34 |
| th1a | OK. I'll let you know when the super-project goes through. | 17:34 |
| menesis | th1a: yes, that can only be done by request: https://help.launchpad.net/Projects/Registering#Project groups | 17:35 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:35 |
| th1a | OK... string freeze. | 17:35 |
| th1a | We should do this. | 17:35 |
| th1a | October 2? | 17:36 |
| th1a | 9? | 17:36 |
| th1a | I like 9. | 17:36 |
| th1a | 9? | 17:37 |
| yvl | no objections? :) | 17:38 |
| th1a | 9 it is. | 17:38 |
| th1a | So we need to prioritize bugs that change strings somewhat. | 17:39 |
| th1a | Also, yvl, if you could take care of the "self - contact" bug sooner, that would help aelkner. | 17:39 |
| aelkner | oh yes, it wold | 17:40 |
| aelkner | would | 17:40 |
| yvl | ok | 17:40 |
| th1a | OK... aelkner: anything in particular to add? | 17:40 |
| aelkner | to what? | 17:40 |
| th1a | To this meeting? | 17:41 |
| aelkner | the discussion about translations? | 17:41 |
| th1a | No. | 17:41 |
| th1a | In general. | 17:41 |
| aelkner | i could report my last week :) | 17:41 |
| aelkner | ok then | 17:41 |
| aelkner | i lost a couple of days to a cold that both my girlfriend and i started feelign around tuesday | 17:42 |
| aelkner | must have caught it together on sunday | 17:42 |
| aelkner | anyway, i started down that dreaded smtp path again | 17:42 |
| aelkner | first trying to use gmail as smtp server | 17:42 |
| aelkner | that didn't work | 17:42 |
| th1a | aelkner you have to talk to us when you're trying to do this shit. | 17:43 |
| aelkner | i'm talking now | 17:43 |
| th1a | Well, we're here all week. | 17:43 |
| aelkner | fair enough | 17:44 |
| th1a | *sigh* | 17:44 |
| aelkner | but i needed to do some research on my own before asking someone else to look at it | 17:44 |
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| aelkner | it would be great if we had a test smtp server running somewhere | 17:45 |
| aelkner | i tried again to install postfix to my machine, but the config is just too complicated for me to grasp | 17:45 |
| th1a | Maybe I should just take this off your hands. | 17:45 |
| aelkner | that would be SO great | 17:46 |
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| aelkner | i just need an smtp server to talk to | 17:46 |
| th1a | OK, replaceafill, it is your job now. | 17:46 |
| th1a | Just in time. | 17:46 |
| replaceafill | good morning everybody | 17:46 |
| aelkner | ah replaceafill | 17:46 |
| jelkner | replaceafill: good morning man | 17:46 |
| th1a | you're in charge of smtp. | 17:46 |
| replaceafill | :| | 17:46 |
| th1a | aelkner, work on something else this week. | 17:46 |
| aelkner | i did ask replaceafill for help this weekend | 17:46 |
| th1a | I have to go babysit. | 17:46 |
| th1a | replaceafill: I'll fill you in later. | 17:46 |
| replaceafill | th1a, cool | 17:46 |
| replaceafill | thanks | 17:47 |
| aelkner | before you go, wait | 17:47 |
| aelkner | th1a: i was saying | 17:47 |
| replaceafill | sorry im late, i took my girlfriend to the doc | 17:47 |
| th1a | no problemo. | 17:47 |
| th1a | (that's spanish) | 17:47 |
| replaceafill | :) | 17:47 |
| aelkner | i asked replaceafill if he knew how to set up an smtp server, or if he could set up one for me | 17:47 |
| aelkner | we were discussing it, and he got called away to a meeting | 17:48 |
| aelkner | i got a hold of chris alfano | 17:48 |
| aelkner | and he was able to add me as a user to sla's email server | 17:48 |
| aelkner | that allowed me to get it to work talking to their server from my machine | 17:48 |
| aelkner | that was great news for me | 17:48 |
| aelkner | but in the long run, i'd prefer not to have to use sla's smtp server for testing | 17:49 |
| aelkner | th1a: if you could authorize replaceafill working on setting one up for us, that would be great | 17:49 |
| th1a | DId you actually get any code written? | 17:49 |
| aelkner | let me get to that | 17:49 |
| aelkner | but what about my question | 17:49 |
| aelkner | or could you set one up for us? | 17:50 |
| th1a | No. | 17:50 |
| *** alga has joined #SchoolTool | 17:50 | |
| th1a | We need to get this working with gmail. | 17:50 |
| th1a | Or somebody has to explain to me why it won't work with gmail. | 17:50 |
| aelkner | i can't explain it, i only know that the error: | 17:51 |
| aelkner | raise SMTPException("SMTP AUTH extension not supported by server.") | 17:51 |
| th1a | What's the status of the code? | 17:51 |
| aelkner | so i added the email setting to the application preferences | 17:51 |
| th1a | I really should have taken this off your hands earlier. It is my fault. | 17:52 |
| aelkner | settings | 17:52 |
| th1a | OK. Fill in replaceafill on where that code is. | 17:52 |
| th1a | Push it to a branch. | 17:52 |
| aelkner | ok, will do, but i would like to work with replaceafill on this if you don't mind | 17:53 |
| th1a | Sure. | 17:53 |
| * th1a just needs to keep aelkner focused on things he's good at. | 17:54 | |
| aelkner | true enough, but i did get email to work at sla | 17:54 |
| aelkner | so i thought i could give it a shot | 17:54 |
| aelkner | i have experience graping with the complexities of quesed mail delivery | 17:54 |
| th1a | Yeah, but it inevitably is a big time sink. | 17:55 |
| aelkner | queued | 17:55 |
| aelkner | it has been | 17:55 |
| th1a | I can give it back to you once we get smtp working. | 17:55 |
| aelkner | but if replaceafill is going to work on it, i should share with hoim what i learned | 17:55 |
| aelkner | cool | 17:55 |
| th1a | OK, do you guys have time to do that now? | 17:56 |
| aelkner | replaceafill? | 17:56 |
| replaceafill | sure | 17:56 |
| th1a | replaceafill: Can you get postfix or sendmail running locally? | 17:56 |
| replaceafill | postfix | 17:57 |
| replaceafill | yes | 17:57 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:57 |
| th1a | So test against that and then try to figure out how to get SchoolTool sending mail through gmail. | 17:57 |
| yvl | btw, why gmail? | 17:59 |
| aelkner | good question | 17:59 |
| yvl | (no need to answer if that starts a flamewar or something) | 17:59 |
| th1a | Well, that's just an arbitrary free smtp service. | 17:59 |
| aelkner | see, the advantage of having our own smtp server is we can control the user ids | 18:00 |
| th1a | Presumably it will also work on other smtp servers. The only catch is probably the auth doo hickey. | 18:00 |
| aelkner | we need to be able to send mail from manager@ourserver.org | 18:00 |
| th1a | aelkner: I don't really want to deal with that now. | 18:01 |
| aelkner | i don't see having manager@gmail.com available to us | 18:01 |
| th1a | It doesn't really matter. | 18:01 |
| aelkner | fine | 18:01 |
| th1a | Just getting a local test server running is easy. | 18:02 |
| th1a | Running public mail servers is a pain. | 18:02 |
| th1a | I don't want to run a public mail server for testing. | 18:03 |
| aelkner | why wouldn't we? | 18:03 |
| th1a | It is a pain! | 18:03 |
| aelkner | as long as we force authoriation | 18:03 |
| th1a | No. | 18:03 |
| th1a | I have to go. | 18:03 |
| * yvl seconds | 18:03 | |
| yvl | (on the "No" part) | 18:04 |
| yvl | bag of gravel, th1a? | 18:04 |
| th1a | aelkner & replaceafill: Talk amongst yourselves. | 18:04 |
| replaceafill | ok | 18:04 |
| th1a | Have a great week! | 18:04 |
| aelkner | i'm feeling verklempt :) | 18:04 |
| aelkner | great week, th1a | 18:04 |
| aelkner | see you soon | 18:04 |
| th1a | aelkner: talk to you tomorrow probably. | 18:04 |
| aelkner | ok | 18:04 |
| yvl | good week to you all :) | 18:04 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 18:04 | |
| aelkner | replaceafill: could you please take a look at schooltool.intervention? | 18:05 |
| replaceafill | ok, will go branch now | 18:05 |
| aelkner | after you've branched, take a look at schooltool/intervention/configure.zcml | 18:06 |
| aelkner | i have some intentionally commented out zcml directives there | 18:06 |
| replaceafill | aelkner, your august_fixes branch or the schooltool-owners branch? | 18:07 |
| aelkner | they are merged, so go for the owners one | 18:07 |
| replaceafill | ok | 18:08 |
| aelkner | you are not going to need to change schooltool.intervention | 18:08 |
| replaceafill | ok | 18:08 |
| aelkner | that will be my job after you've gotten schooltool email to work | 18:08 |
| aelkner | but to see what i have done, it will be important to look at it | 18:09 |
| replaceafill | branching | 18:09 |
| aelkner | let me know when you have that file open | 18:09 |
| replaceafill | so, what's my job here? | 18:09 |
| replaceafill | ok | 18:09 |
| aelkner | get schooltool to deliver email | 18:10 |
| aelkner | anyway, you have the file open? | 18:11 |
| replaceafill | still branching | 18:11 |
| menesis | why do you want to send email through gmail? | 18:14 |
| aelkner | it's not me who wants to | 18:14 |
| menesis | you just need to install postfix | 18:14 |
| aelkner | that's what replaceafill is gong to work on | 18:14 |
| aelkner | the whole gmail thing was th1a wanting to not have our own server | 18:15 |
| yvl | why do we need our own server? | 18:15 |
| menesis | and answer to one of the questions "internet site" i think. | 18:15 |
| menesis | the zope.sendmail will use it to send out email | 18:15 |
| ignas | yvl: don't you have one on your laptop? | 18:15 |
| aelkner | yvl: if schooltool is going to support sending email | 18:15 |
| ignas | you want to use postfix for sending email, reallt | 18:16 |
| ignas | really | 18:16 |
| ignas | and no, it won't be "public" | 18:16 |
| aelkner | we need a set of email inboxes | 18:16 |
| ignas | only users of your machine will be able to use it i think | 18:16 |
| aelkner | so that we can send email to seomwhere | 18:16 |
| ignas | you want to "receive" email? | 18:16 |
| aelkner | and confrm that it got there | 18:16 |
| th1a | It is because I want people who don't have public servers to be able to send mail. | 18:16 |
| ignas | as in - you want schooltool to get email? | 18:16 |
| aelkner | ignas: of course | 18:16 |
| ignas | that is not a usecase for a "laptop" | 18:17 |
| th1a | And I want to have a "how to send emails from schooltool via gmail" howto. | 18:17 |
| ignas | or for a "testing machine" | 18:17 |
| ignas | it's for "i have this linux server with a domain" | 18:17 |
| * th1a goes back to babysitting. | 18:17 | |
| ignas | or at least with postfix configured | 18:17 |
| ignas | so that it would *pull* emails from gmail for example and "push" them to schooltool | 18:17 |
| ignas | but still postfix is the solution i'd say | 18:18 |
| ignas | having just recently implelented a friggin mailing list from scratch | 18:18 |
| alga | In general, if you want your server to send emails, you have to have outgoing email set up on your server. Simples. | 18:19 |
| menesis | th1a: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/11/11/relaying-postfix-smtp-via-smtpgmailcom/ | 18:19 |
| menesis | but this is still configuration of postfix. it just relays through gmail. | 18:20 |
| ignas | and if you want to receive email in a web app - you must have something pull email from pop/imap server/mailbox and post it to your application | 18:21 |
| ignas | postfix for example | 18:21 |
| ignas | so yeah, i guess it should be possible to use gmail to allow people configure schooltool + actual email on their laptops | 18:21 |
| ignas | if they have a gmail account | 18:21 |
| *** aelkner_ has joined #schooltool | 18:22 | |
| ignas | or on their PC's that have no domain names | 18:22 |
| aelkner_ | sorry, i got dropped | 18:22 |
| replaceafill | aelkner_, done | 18:22 |
| replaceafill | configure.zcml open | 18:22 |
| aelkner_ | so there was this discussion about why we need an email server | 18:22 |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 18:22 | |
| aelkner_ | i don't understand why people keep talking about using an smtp server to send mail | 18:23 |
| aelkner_ | i would think a server would receive mail | 18:23 |
| aelkner_ | i mail a school has it's own email server | 18:23 |
| aelkner_ | with inboxes for each user | 18:23 |
| aelkner_ | i want a send an email from schooltool having from address user1@myschool.org | 18:24 |
| aelkner_ | and to adressses user2@myschool.org and user3@myschool.org | 18:24 |
| aelkner_ | so schooltool does the sending | 18:24 |
| aelkner_ | and myschool.org does the receiving | 18:25 |
| aelkner_ | seems like standard client/server relationship | 18:25 |
| aelkner_ | yet everywhere i go on google | 18:25 |
| Lumiere | the easiest thing to do is | 18:25 |
| aelkner_ | i find pages that talk about using an smtp server to SEND mail | 18:25 |
| Lumiere | not back-port | 18:25 |
| aelkner_ | not receive it | 18:25 |
| aelkner_ | what's with that? | 18:25 |
| Lumiere | for upgrades | 18:25 |
| Lumiere | (hi all) :) | 18:26 |
| * Lumiere looks at th1a | 18:26 | |
| aelkner_ | any thoughts on my discussion thread? | 18:26 |
| ignas | aelkner: well lot's of reasons really | 18:26 |
| ignas | aelkner: first of all - reliability | 18:26 |
| ignas | aelkner: if myschool.org is down | 18:26 |
| ignas | aelkner: at this very moment, the right thing to do is - wait for an hour and try again | 18:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: so if you want to send emails "directly to them" | 18:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: you must implement a whole bunch of failovers, intermediate storage and so on | 18:27 |
| aelkner_ | ignas: i've been using queued mail delivery | 18:27 |
| aelkner_ | but that's another issue | 18:27 |
| aelkner_ | the email stays on the schooltool server | 18:27 |
| aelkner_ | until the target smtp server comes back up | 18:28 |
| ignas | aelkner: so most of the applications in the world, like evolution, outlook, etc. just choose the simpler way of letting postfix which is one of the most robust and correct email servers do the job | 18:28 |
| ignas | aelkner: but you would be poorly reimplementing something that a bunch of programmers already implemented | 18:28 |
| aelkner_ | zope did the queued mail delivery utility, not i | 18:29 |
| aelkner_ | this is all in production at sla | 18:29 |
| ignas | i think zope is using sendmail to do that, is it not? | 18:29 |
| aelkner_ | nope | 18:29 |
| ignas | you sure queued mail delivery utility is doing the actual direct sending itself? | 18:30 |
| aelkner_ | zope has a queue directory | 18:30 |
| aelkner_ | yep | 18:30 |
| aelkner_ | it tries to send the email to the smtp server | 18:30 |
| ignas | mgedmin: ^ can you tell me that it's true? | 18:30 |
| aelkner_ | and if it fails, it just tries again until it succeeds | 18:30 |
| mgedmin | sort of | 18:30 |
| ignas | to the "destination" smtp server you mean? | 18:30 |
| mgedmin | the queued delivery thing used to be pretty stoopid | 18:30 |
| mgedmin | like looping FOREVER every 5 seconds if the email is not valid | 18:31 |
| mgedmin | well, more like retrying, not looping | 18:31 |
| mgedmin | looping would imply it stopped processing other emails, which it didn't | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | here's the zcml for SLA: | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | <include package="zope.sendmail" file="meta.zcml" /> | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | <mail:smtpMailer | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | name="intervention" | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | hostname="mail.scienceleadership.org" | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | port="25" | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | username="aelkner" | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | password="aelkner" | 18:31 |
| mgedmin | updated zope.sendmail may be somewhat smarter | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | /> | 18:31 |
| Lumiere | oy | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | <mail:queuedDelivery | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | name="intervention" | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | permission="schooltool.edit" | 18:31 |
| Lumiere | don't paste to channel | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | queuePath="mail-queue" | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | mailer="intervention" | 18:31 |
| mgedmin | but still it's a dumb delivery to a relay host | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | /> | 18:31 |
| aelkner_ | note the two utilities | 18:31 |
| mgedmin | you need a relay host | 18:32 |
| aelkner_ | one for the queue | 18:32 |
| ignas | mail.scienceleadership.org 25 | 18:32 |
| aelkner_ | and one for the actual smtp host | 18:32 |
| ignas | aelkner who is running *that* server? | 18:32 |
| Lumiere | lisppaste5: url | 18:32 |
| lisppaste5 | To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/schooltool and enter your paste. | 18:32 |
| aelkner_ | SLA | 18:32 |
| ignas | so yeah, you don't have to run your own mail server, if someone else does | 18:33 |
| ignas | run it for you | 18:33 |
| ignas | in this case - the administrator of mail.scienceleadership.org | 18:33 |
| *** aelkner has quit IRC | 18:33 | |
| aelkner_ | for some reason FreeNode says i quit | 18:34 |
| aelkner_ | does anyone see my message here? | 18:34 |
| ignas | yeah | 18:35 |
| replaceafill | i do | 18:35 |
| aelkner_ | ok, thanks | 18:35 |
| ignas | aelkner quit aelkner_ is still here | 18:35 |
| aelkner_ | got it, thanks | 18:35 |
| Lumiere | you had a ghost haunting you | 18:36 |
| aelkner_ | so i've always assumed that if you have a school, you'd want to set up a mail server | 18:36 |
| aelkner_ | so that teachers, students can send mail to each other | 18:36 |
| aelkner_ | that would be an smtp server | 18:36 |
| ignas | aelkner_: and I assumed that most schools don't have any full time network admins | 18:37 |
| ignas | and the ones they have are pretty busy | 18:37 |
| aelkner_ | so what do they do about email?\ | 18:37 |
| ignas | they use personal accounts | 18:37 |
| jelkner | they pay someone | 18:37 |
| aelkner_ | really? | 18:37 |
| jelkner | yes | 18:38 |
| aelkner_ | so schooltool would need to send an email from user1@hispersonalemail.org to user2@his? | 18:38 |
| jelkner | aps does *not* provide students with email accounts | 18:38 |
| Lumiere | and never will | 18:38 |
| Lumiere | by policy | 18:38 |
| jelkner | and if we don't, you can bet most other systems don't either | 18:38 |
| Lumiere | the only one I know of that does | 18:39 |
| Lumiere | is TJHSST | 18:39 |
| jelkner | well, Lumiere, never is a long time | 18:39 |
| jelkner | NVCC does | 18:39 |
| Lumiere | NVCC is not a HS | 18:39 |
| jelkner | and with GCTAA, we are part of NVCC | 18:39 |
| Lumiere | it is a college | 18:39 |
| jelkner | yes, but our students will get email through NVCC | 18:39 |
| Lumiere | jelkner: your college students have accounts | 18:39 |
| Lumiere | but not your HS only | 18:39 |
| jelkner | anyway, the line is beginning to blur | 18:39 |
| jelkner | other high schools will want what we have, etc. | 18:40 |
| aelkner_ | ok, well, I guess I've been making false assumption, perhaps the business experience giving me false expectations again | 18:40 |
| Lumiere | jelkner: the point is 'assume students will use personal accounts' | 18:40 |
| jelkner | indeed | 18:40 |
| Lumiere | even if they have an nvcc account | 18:40 |
| Lumiere | assume they won't want stuff going to it | 18:40 |
| aelkner_ | but schooltool still need to commuicate with SOME smtp server | 18:40 |
| aelkner_ | iit needs to talk smtp to deliver email | 18:41 |
| aelkner_ | even if teh from an to addresses are arbitrary | 18:41 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: that is not your problem | 18:41 |
| jelkner | so th1a suggestion to use gmail is a good one | 18:41 |
| jelkner | if possible | 18:41 |
| *** th1a_ has joined #schooltool | 18:41 | |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: the sysadmin needs to setup email service | 18:41 |
| jelkner | since you do not want to add to the requirements of schools using ST | 18:41 |
| aelkner_ | Lumiere: you mean an smtp server, right? | 18:41 |
| Lumiere | in such a way that the application will have outbound at all times | 18:41 |
| jelkner | yes | 18:42 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: either on system or off | 18:42 |
| Lumiere | but yea | 18:42 |
| Lumiere | my setup is always | 18:42 |
| Lumiere | outbound only smtp on every server sending mail | 18:42 |
| Lumiere | relaying to the main email server for the network | 18:42 |
| Lumiere | that way postfix (or exim /whatever) | 18:42 |
| Lumiere | handles queue or mail sending failures | 18:43 |
| Lumiere | not my apps | 18:43 |
| jelkner | but that means a custom config for each school | 18:43 |
| jelkner | it would be better if we had a known way that could work for any school | 18:43 |
| Lumiere | no | 18:43 |
| jelkner | it would greatly simplify documentation | 18:43 |
| Lumiere | email is not something that just works | 18:43 |
| aelkner_ | well, it's clear that each school can set up as many smtp servers it wants | 18:43 |
| jelkner | gmail, just works | 18:43 |
| aelkner_ | but schooltool needs to talk to just one | 18:43 |
| Lumiere | write documentation for sending through gmail is fine | 18:44 |
| Lumiere | but it should not be automagically configured | 18:44 |
| Lumiere | to do anything | 18:44 |
| ignas | Lumiere: hmm, problem with Gmail is | 18:44 |
| ignas | gmail can only send email a s"you" | 18:44 |
| Lumiere | ignas: yes | 18:44 |
| ignas | so if you only need one "from" address | 18:44 |
| ignas | yep - it will work | 18:44 |
| aelkner_ | but that it not sufficient | 18:44 |
| ignas | but you will have to use your personal address | 18:44 |
| aelkner_ | forget gmail, it won't do what we want | 18:45 |
| Lumiere | email is a sysadmin task | 18:45 |
| Lumiere | not a programmer task | 18:45 |
| aelkner_ | Lumiere: i understand | 18:45 |
| Lumiere | you write a documented zcml file | 18:45 |
| aelkner_ | but there is a programatic element | 18:45 |
| Lumiere | not really | 18:45 |
| Lumiere | you write what is needed | 18:45 |
| Lumiere | and someone else does the work to make it work | 18:45 |
| Lumiere | document the zcml file | 18:46 |
| ignas | well - having "localhost" | 18:46 |
| aelkner_ | we need to talk to an smtp host, port, user, password | 18:46 |
| ignas | for outbound email server default | 18:46 |
| ignas | should work in most of the "we have a properly configured email server already" cases | 18:46 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: you need to be able to ignore if it isn't configured properly | 18:46 |
| aelkner_ | we would need to log undeliverale email | 18:46 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: no | 18:47 |
| Lumiere | that's the mail servers job | 18:47 |
| aelkner_ | but we need a mail server | 18:47 |
| Lumiere | yes | 18:47 |
| aelkner_ | if it is to be the job of the mail server, we need one | 18:47 |
| th1a_ | You guys seem to be making this task much more complicated than I see it. | 18:47 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: you don't need anything | 18:47 |
| Lumiere | if mail isn't configured | 18:47 |
| Lumiere | schooltool should not attempt to send mail | 18:48 |
| th1a_ | SchoolTool needs to be a SMTP client, send out reminders, which can be from any reasonably named mail account on any handy server. | 18:48 |
| Lumiere | and it shouldn't log that it isn't attempting to send mail | 18:48 |
| th1a_ | fhs_reminders@gmail.com | 18:48 |
| th1a_ | whatever. | 18:48 |
| Lumiere | th1a_: aelkner's requirements are beyond that | 18:48 |
| Lumiere | he sends as spoof | 18:48 |
| Lumiere | it seems | 18:48 |
| th1a_ | Spoofing user addresses? | 18:49 |
| aelkner_ | has anyone else ever used zope.sendmail? | 18:49 |
| aelkner_ | no spoofing | 18:49 |
| *** dlobo has joined #schooltool | 18:49 | |
| aelkner_ | i got it straight from Phillip's book | 18:49 |
| aelkner_ | you use two utilities | 18:49 |
| ignas | th1a: if you need reminders from, and you can live with the fact that they will all be comming from th1a@gmail.com (in case you configured it for yourself) | 18:49 |
| ignas | th1a: it is possible to do that | 18:49 |
| aelkner_ | 1) a queued mail delivery utility | 18:50 |
| aelkner_ | 2) a direct mail delivery | 18:50 |
| aelkner_ | the first one talkes to the second | 18:50 |
| ignas | aelkner_: that's the code side, it does not suddenly make the "sys admin" side good or nice or working | 18:50 |
| aelkner_ | and handles the case where the second one is down | 18:50 |
| aelkner_ | i understand | 18:50 |
| ignas | or correct | 18:50 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: 1 should be handled by the local smtp service | 18:50 |
| aelkner_ | i was just explaining the code side because noone was recognizing its existence | 18:51 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: we heard | 18:51 |
| aelkner_ | Lumiere: that's not how zope.sendmail works | 18:51 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: we're saying zope shouldn't be doing it | 18:51 |
| * Lumiere gives up and goes back to his holiday ,-, | 18:51 | |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill: do you see how the utilities are being used in schooltool.intervention? | 18:52 |
| replaceafill | aelkner_, yep | 18:52 |
| aelkner_ | so are you the only one who follows what i'm saying? | 18:52 |
| replaceafill | :) | 18:52 |
| aelkner_ | is that a yes? | 18:52 |
| replaceafill | yes | 18:53 |
| aelkner_ | ok, good | 18:53 |
| aelkner_ | so the point is, schooltool needs to talk to the queued mail delivery utility | 18:53 |
| th1a_ | There has to be a mail queue, because if schooltool tries to send a message and the SMTP server is down, it has to try again. | 18:53 |
| th1a_ | Right? | 18:53 |
| aelkner_ | exactly! | 18:53 |
| replaceafill | yes | 18:53 |
| th1a_ | OK then. | 18:53 |
| aelkner_ | here's the tricky part | 18:53 |
| aelkner_ | as you can see from my zcml for SLA | 18:54 |
| aelkner_ | i configure the direct mail delivery part in the zcml | 18:54 |
| aelkner_ | which is hard-coding | 18:54 |
| aelkner_ | we would need to be more clever if we are to allow the admin user to change the smtp server settings | 18:54 |
| replaceafill | like in a UI for instance | 18:55 |
| aelkner_ | unless we force them to do a restart of schooltool | 18:55 |
| Lumiere | it should not be a UI feature | 18:55 |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill: sorry, you're not up to date | 18:55 |
| Lumiere | it shouldn't be configured by a web user | 18:55 |
| aelkner_ | Lumiere: exactly the opposite is the case | 18:55 |
| Lumiere | and I've never seen an app that uses queued mail in app | 18:56 |
| *** dlobo has quit IRC | 18:56 | |
| th1a_ | No, it is perfectly reasonable to allow the manager to set the outgoing server. | 18:56 |
| aelkner_ | th1a_: tell him that you requested the smtp setting to be in the site preferences please | 18:56 |
| th1a_ | Lumiere: I don't see how this is any different than, how, I don't know, Sunbird would do it. | 18:56 |
| th1a_ | Any client has a queue of messages it is waiting to send while offline. | 18:57 |
| th1a_ | That's all we're talking about. | 18:57 |
| Lumiere | th1a_: the difference is that sunbird you're following your ISP's directions and your smtp server is external | 18:57 |
| th1a_ | Yes, that's the case here. | 18:57 |
| Lumiere | I disagree | 18:57 |
| Lumiere | 99.9% of schooltool installations will have a system administrator to configure smtp | 18:57 |
| Lumiere | just like they configure apache | 18:58 |
| Lumiere | and the port it runs on | 18:58 |
| Lumiere | and that smtp server will almost always be 'close' | 18:58 |
| Lumiere | on lan or on the server itself | 18:58 |
| th1a_ | Not necessarily. | 18:58 |
| Lumiere | th1a_: name any installation at this point where that isn't the case? | 18:59 |
| Lumiere | cando's is on server | 18:59 |
| Lumiere | sla is on lan | 18:59 |
| th1a_ | Well, I'm not thinking only about current users. | 18:59 |
| Lumiere | I am thinking enterprise architecture | 18:59 |
| th1a_ | SchoolTool's growth will not come among schools with established enterprise architecture. | 19:00 |
| Lumiere | th1a_: yes, but it will be on a linux box | 19:00 |
| Lumiere | use postfix on box | 19:00 |
| Lumiere | that will never go down | 19:00 |
| Lumiere | *Ever* | 19:00 |
| th1a_ | Look, I don't see the problem with making this through the web configurable. | 19:01 |
| Lumiere | I'll live with that | 19:01 |
| th1a_ | OK. | 19:01 |
| Lumiere | I am saying queueing shouldn't be handled by zope | 19:01 |
| th1a_ | What if the mailserver is down? | 19:02 |
| aelkner_ | right | 19:02 |
| Lumiere | then you didn't setup your system right | 19:02 |
| th1a_ | Well, that's not the right answer. | 19:02 |
| Lumiere | it is still not zope's issue | 19:02 |
| aelkner_ | servers go down | 19:02 |
| th1a_ | Of course it is. | 19:02 |
| th1a_ | If it tries to send a mail and it fails, it has to remember. | 19:02 |
| th1a_ | That's not debatable. | 19:02 |
| aelkner_ | amen | 19:02 |
| Lumiere | that isn't queueing | 19:02 |
| aelkner_ | wtf? | 19:03 |
| th1a_ | You can call it whatever you want. | 19:03 |
| aelkner_ | it's queueing | 19:03 |
| Lumiere | fine... do whatever | 19:03 |
| Lumiere | I am gonna pull it out | 19:03 |
| Lumiere | at my locations | 19:03 |
| Lumiere | it's yet another point of failure | 19:03 |
| th1a_ | It is a list of emails that have not been yet sent to the SMPT server. | 19:03 |
| th1a_ | SMTP | 19:03 |
| Lumiere | that *I* have to deal with | 19:03 |
| aelkner_ | yes | 19:03 |
| aelkner_ | no | 19:03 |
| aelkner_ | schooltool should deal with them | 19:04 |
| Lumiere | who does welsh call when email stops flowing | 19:04 |
| Lumiere | Me. | 19:04 |
| aelkner_ | we will need a view for showing stuck emails | 19:04 |
| Lumiere | therefore I have to deal with it | 19:04 |
| * Lumiere closes irc | 19:04 | |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill: how are you doing? | 19:05 |
| th1a_ | Either the mail will go in a queue or it will disappear. Are there any other choices? | 19:05 |
| replaceafill | aelkner_, listening | 19:05 |
| replaceafill | i mean reading | 19:05 |
| aelkner_ | thank you th1a_ | 19:05 |
| aelkner_ | so we agree | 19:05 |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill: getting back to what i did with SLA | 19:05 |
| th1a_ | I think "mail queue" means something to Lumiere that it doesn't mean to us. | 19:06 |
| aelkner_ | i agree | 19:06 |
| aelkner_ | that has to be the cause of the confusion | 19:06 |
| aelkner_ | he's thinking sysadmin mail queue | 19:06 |
| aelkner_ | we're talking schooltool mail queue | 19:06 |
| replaceafill | th1a, for the record, from zope.sendmail README.txt: If the delivery utility is a ``IQueuedMailDelivery``, it puts the | 19:06 |
| replaceafill | message into a queue (a Maildir mailbox in the file system). A | 19:06 |
| replaceafill | separate process or thread (``IMailQueueProcessor``) watches the queue | 19:06 |
| replaceafill | and delivers messages asynchronously. Since the queue is located in | 19:06 |
| replaceafill | the file system, it survives Zope restarts or crashes and the mail is | 19:06 |
| replaceafill | not lost. The queue processor can implement batching to keep the | 19:06 |
| replaceafill | server load low. | 19:06 |
| replaceafill | sorry for the flooding | 19:06 |
| aelkner_ | no problem, that's helpful | 19:07 |
| th1a_ | Is there some dispute about what the outgoing accounts need to be? | 19:07 |
| aelkner_ | th1a_: sorry for my ignorance before about having to have a school mail server | 19:07 |
| aelkner_ | that's from my business expereince | 19:08 |
| aelkner_ | i always assumed that a school would provide its users email accounts | 19:08 |
| aelkner_ | as SLA does | 19:08 |
| aelkner_ | but clearly that's not always going to be the case | 19:08 |
| aelkner_ | nor does it need to be | 19:08 |
| th1a_ | Yes. | 19:08 |
| replaceafill | not in El Salvador ;) | 19:08 |
| aelkner_ | i got used to thinking that way also partly because SLA does what i expected | 19:09 |
| aelkner_ | anyway forget about my false assumptions | 19:09 |
| aelkner_ | i'm clear on it now | 19:09 |
| aelkner_ | we definely need that self contact setting | 19:09 |
| aelkner_ | and it can be anyone's personal email account | 19:09 |
| th1a_ | Yes. | 19:09 |
| aelkner_ | the school still needs to tell schooltool what smtp server to use | 19:10 |
| th1a_ | Yes. | 19:10 |
| aelkner_ | and we will use queued delivery to handle down times | 19:10 |
| aelkner_ | that uses the file system | 19:10 |
| aelkner_ | the only down-side is that stuck email is hidden from the schooltool ui | 19:11 |
| ignas | Lumiere: by the way, and off topic question - how do you inspect an email that is in the queue? | 19:11 |
| aelkner_ | we would want to create a view that scans the queue for stuck email | 19:11 |
| Lumiere | ignas: if it is in postfix I just mailq | 19:11 |
| replaceafill | ignas, in postfix? | 19:11 |
| replaceafill | yes | 19:11 |
| ignas | Lumiere: yeah mailq, but what parameters? | 19:11 |
| ignas | to display a message | 19:12 |
| ignas | with full contents | 19:12 |
| replaceafill | good question :) | 19:12 |
| Lumiere | iirc it is like mail | 19:12 |
| aelkner_ | as opposed to hate mail | 19:12 |
| aelkner_ | sorry :) | 19:12 |
| Lumiere | it opens a term | 19:13 |
| Lumiere | and you type commands | 19:13 |
| Lumiere | but my mail servers don't *fail* | 19:13 |
| Lumiere | :) | 19:13 |
| aelkner_ | Lumiere: if the power goes down | 19:13 |
| aelkner_ | then the server is down | 19:13 |
| Lumiere | and if that server is down | 19:14 |
| aelkner_ | i've been at aps when the server power went down | 19:14 |
| Lumiere | schooltool is down | 19:14 |
| Lumiere | soooo what;s the issue | 19:14 |
| aelkner_ | if schooltool is on a different network then the smtp server | 19:14 |
| Lumiere | it *never* is for me | 19:14 |
| Lumiere | *ever* | 19:14 |
| aelkner_ | well, that's just you | 19:14 |
| aelkner_ | that cant' be a schooltool requirement | 19:14 |
| Lumiere | every system admin | 19:15 |
| Lumiere | I've ever seen | 19:15 |
| Lumiere | has a mail server | 19:15 |
| Lumiere | on the internal network minimally | 19:15 |
| Lumiere | or on the same server | 19:15 |
| aelkner_ | i think th1a_ would agree that we can't make that a requirement | 19:16 |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill: shall we continue our discussion intermixed with the rest of the traffic? | 19:16 |
| ignas | if you want to send email using any other From but your google mail address or your personal address - you need a mail server | 19:16 |
| Lumiere | just let me turn off | 19:17 |
| Lumiere | the pieces I don't want | 19:17 |
| ignas | if you want to receive emails or at least handle bounces | 19:17 |
| replaceafill | aelkner_, sure | 19:17 |
| ignas | on schooltool side - you need a server | 19:17 |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill: so you see how the two utilities are hard-coded as zcml | 19:17 |
| ignas | but i think | 19:17 |
| ignas | it is possible to have the "small setup" | 19:17 |
| replaceafill | aelkner_, yep | 19:17 |
| ignas | where schooltool pretends to be you | 19:17 |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill: changing which smtp server you want is (in schooltool.intervention) a matter of changing zcml and restarting the server | 19:18 |
| replaceafill | aelkner_, yes | 19:18 |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill: but we don't want that in our general schooltool solution | 19:18 |
| aelkner_ | so you'll need to did down into zope.sendmail and figure out how to use a dynamic utility instead | 19:19 |
| aelkner_ | i started thinking about his last week | 19:19 |
| aelkner_ | but i haven't been able to come up with a game plan yet | 19:19 |
| aelkner_ | i pushed a branch up with some code changes | 19:20 |
| aelkner_ | lp:~aelkner/schooltool/schooltool_email_changes | 19:20 |
| aelkner_ | you'll see there that I started writing an EmailUtility | 19:20 |
| replaceafill | checking | 19:20 |
| aelkner_ | that receives the email in question in the send method | 19:20 |
| aelkner_ | it's just a stub | 19:21 |
| * Lumiere notes that email should be menesis's issue | 19:21 | |
| aelkner_ | it has an insufficient hard-coded call to get the IMailDelivery utility | 19:22 |
| aelkner_ | using name, "intervention" | 19:22 |
| aelkner_ | that won't do of course | 19:22 |
| replaceafill | yes | 19:22 |
| aelkner_ | i think we can hard-code the IMailDelivery zcml to use the queued mail directive | 19:23 |
| aelkner_ | but the smtpMailer directive needs to be replaced by a dynamic utility | 19:23 |
| aelkner_ | that gets persisted to the site manager | 19:24 |
| aelkner_ | and that utility needs to use the site preferences to send the email to the right smtp host | 19:24 |
| aelkner_ | does that make sense so far | 19:25 |
| aelkner_ | ? | 19:25 |
| replaceafill | yes i understand, i only have one question | 19:25 |
| replaceafill | i remember you talk to gmail in a specific way when you want it to be your smtp server | 19:26 |
| replaceafill | look at this example: | 19:26 |
| replaceafill | mailServer = smtplib.SMTP('smtp.gmail.com',587) | 19:26 |
| replaceafill | mailServer.ehlo() | 19:26 |
| replaceafill | mailServer.starttls() | 19:26 |
| replaceafill | mailServer.ehlo() | 19:26 |
| replaceafill | mailServer.login(smtpuser, smtppass) | 19:26 |
| replaceafill | mailServer.sendmail(smtpuser,RECIPIENTS,msg.as_string()) | 19:26 |
| replaceafill | mailServer.close() | 19:26 |
| aelkner_ | port 587? | 19:26 |
| replaceafill | yep | 19:26 |
| aelkner_ | maybe that's why i couldn't get it to work | 19:27 |
| aelkner_ | i was using port 25 | 19:27 |
| Lumiere | guys | 19:27 |
| aelkner_ | and i didn't see anything about port 587 | 19:27 |
| Lumiere | if you're pasting over 3 lines | 19:27 |
| Lumiere | use lisppaste pls | 19:27 |
| aelkner_ | but anyway, gmail won't work for us | 19:27 |
| replaceafill | sorry Lumiere my bad | 19:27 |
| menesis | you need SSL authentication to talk to gmail smtp | 19:27 |
| aelkner_ | Lumiere: that's a bit stingent | 19:27 |
| ignas | it's a secure smtp server I think | 19:27 |
| mgedmin | no, it's smtp submission port | 19:27 |
| aelkner_ | 10 or so lines of code are better in the channel | 19:27 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: that's standard irc | 19:27 |
| aelkner_ | than forcing comeone to click and look at another screen | 19:28 |
| mgedmin | RFC 4409 | 19:28 |
| aelkner_ | in my opinion | 19:28 |
| aelkner_ | if it gets to be 100 lines, i understand using paste | 19:28 |
| Lumiere | aelkner_: freenode standard policy is 3 | 19:28 |
| aelkner_ | that's lame | 19:28 |
| aelkner_ | what's the big harm in what replaceafill just pated | 19:28 |
| aelkner_ | it's no more verbose than our discussions | 19:28 |
| aelkner_ | :) | 19:28 |
| aelkner_ | ANYWAY... | 19:29 |
| aelkner_ | replaceafill: gmail doesn't work for our purposes | 19:29 |
| menesis | I do not understand a point of this 3 hour discussion.. | 19:29 |
| aelkner_ | it changes the from address | 19:29 |
| aelkner_ | which is NOT acceptable | 19:29 |
| aelkner_ | menesis: i don't think anyone understand the point of three hours of discussion | 19:30 |
| replaceafill | :D | 19:30 |
| aelkner_ | but it happens as a result of so many different points of view | 19:30 |
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| th1a | My experience has been that a mail server is not the kind of thing you want to run if you don't understand it. | 20:19 |
| th1a | And they are hard to understand. | 20:20 |
| mgedmin | used to be, when you got a connection from your ISP, you got a whole bunch of settings to enter into your PC, and among them an SMTP server address | 20:20 |
| mgedmin | don't know how that works now | 20:21 |
| th1a | People use GMail. ;-) | 20:21 |
| th1a | Or FaceBook. | 20:21 |
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| replaceafill | th1a, do you mind to elaborate in the Gmail bug? is something like http://pastebin.com/m5f823a8b what you're looking for? | 20:26 |
| th1a | Yes. | 20:26 |
| th1a | I'd much rather have people who don't know what they're doing sending mails through a free mail service than running their own postfix. | 20:27 |
| th1a | If they're running postfix we have to support that. | 20:27 |
| jelkner | please listen to th1a on this one, everyone, he knows what he is talking about! ;-) | 20:28 |
| th1a | It shouldn't be any different than any other SMTP. | 20:28 |
| th1a | The one catch is sending emails with the FROM appearing to be from the correct person. | 20:28 |
| th1a | Probably we can just make this an option. | 20:29 |
| th1a | If you don't want to run your own mailserver, you probably won't mind if all the messages come through your_school_messages@gmail.com | 20:30 |
| th1a | If you do mind, run your own damn server! | 20:30 |
| th1a | Also, regarding the discussion above -- the default mailserver should be "none." | 20:32 |
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| th1a | replaceafill: Is all this making any sense to you? | 20:40 |
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| replaceafill | th1a, most of it, yes | 20:42 |
| replaceafill | th1a, at the end we're going to use UI preferences to specify this parameters, right? | 20:42 |
| replaceafill | even some dont agree :D | 20:43 |
| th1a | Yes... unless it turns out to be very difficult to do so technically. | 20:43 |
| th1a | I guess it is more involved than I realized. | 20:43 |
| jelkner | Lumiere: how do we get replaceafill admin access to our ST instance? | 21:27 |
| Lumiere | jelkner: ask welsh | 21:27 |
| jelkner | does welsh know how to do that? | 21:27 |
| * Lumiere is not happy right now | 21:27 | |
| jelkner | he will just ask you, right? | 21:27 |
| jelkner | why? | 21:27 |
| Lumiere | look above | 21:27 |
| Lumiere | anyways... if you mean root on the server | 21:28 |
| Lumiere | the answer is no | 21:28 |
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| replaceafill | aelkner_, you around? | 22:52 |
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| jelkner | th1a: are you here? | 23:13 |
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