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| th1a | Hi ignas, aelkner. | 16:30 |
|---|---|---|
| aelkner | morning | 16:31 |
| aelkner | hear about the election results from Dixville Notch | 16:32 |
| aelkner | McCain 6 | 16:32 |
| aelkner | Nadar 0 | 16:32 |
| aelkner | Obama 15! | 16:32 |
| th1a | There is no statistical correlation between their vote and the country's. | 16:33 |
| ignas | hi | 16:33 |
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| aelkner | i know :) | 16:33 |
| th1a | Hi ignas. | 16:33 |
| th1a | So... what are your priorities now, Ignas? | 16:34 |
| ignas | hmm | 16:34 |
| ignas | i have these things in mind at the moment | 16:34 |
| ignas | date widgets (zc.formlib vs z3c.form) so schooltool would have 1 way to enter date, preferably with a date picker | 16:34 |
| ignas | levels | 16:34 |
| ignas | section copying | 16:35 |
| ignas | refactoring relationships to make them a lot more efficient | 16:35 |
| ignas | and add capability of storing additional data for relationships | 16:35 |
| ignas | bugs in our bug tracker | 16:35 |
| ignas | (looking for a todo list to see if i forgot anything) | 16:36 |
| th1a | One thing that is important -- particularly to do sooner rather than later -- is to improve the tester's experience. | 16:36 |
| th1a | (i.e., the person downloading and trying out schooltool) | 16:37 |
| ignas | oh | 16:37 |
| ignas | yeah - import + sample data | 16:37 |
| ignas | am looking at it too | 16:37 |
| th1a | So getting sample data working again is important. | 16:37 |
| th1a | Yes, and importing. | 16:37 |
| ignas | trying to find out how to do them more or less properly with hierarchial data structure | 16:37 |
| ignas | possibly combining import and sample data generation in a way that would give users nice examples of import files | 16:38 |
| ignas | while allowing them to test out schooltool easily | 16:38 |
| th1a | Yes... | 16:38 |
| ignas | could you order the tasks according to your priorities? | 16:39 |
| th1a | Although we could just make static sample files and include them in a separate .deb package, I suppose. | 16:39 |
| ignas | th1a: yeah, i mean - my plan is 1. import, 2. export 3. sample data generation, because I can fake sample data by providing premade files | 16:40 |
| ignas | for import | 16:40 |
| th1a | So then rip out the existing sample data system? | 16:40 |
| ignas | if we have a full school import - we can as well do 1 file for our users to both - test schooltool and as an instruction for people who want to import their information | 16:40 |
| ignas | th1a: yes | 16:40 |
| ignas | th1a: it is too linear for our current data layout | 16:40 |
| th1a | *sigh* another brilliant idea of mine bites the dust. | 16:41 |
| ignas | th1a: no it does not, it has served us well | 16:41 |
| ignas | up until i have turned everything upside down ;) | 16:41 |
| * th1a smiles wanly through his tears. | 16:42 | |
| th1a | It makes sense to do it this way (importing) because it also tests that our imports work and provides examples. | 16:43 |
| th1a | So doing that first makes sense Ignas. | 16:44 |
| ignas | ok | 16:44 |
| ignas | i am doing it using spreadsheets if you don't mind | 16:44 |
| ignas | instead of CSV files | 16:44 |
| ignas | gives me a lot more freedom for comments, borders, bolding some text | 16:45 |
| th1a | What do you mean exactly? | 16:45 |
| th1a | oo.org? | 16:45 |
| ignas | excel (better python support) | 16:45 |
| ignas | and oo.org and gnumeric | 16:45 |
| ignas | work with the files | 16:45 |
| aelkner | what about xml? | 16:46 |
| ignas | aelkner: well - I can envision a user opening xls file | 16:46 |
| ignas | then swapping 2 rows | 16:46 |
| ignas | and changing a title for one of them | 16:46 |
| ignas | i can't envision user renaming tag <title> to tag <first_name> | 16:46 |
| ignas | in a huge xml file | 16:46 |
| aelkner | true | 16:46 |
| th1a | Definitely we should assume the user is using a spreadsheet. | 16:47 |
| th1a | So you're saying, use oo and save as Excel? | 16:47 |
| ignas | well - python has very good python only libraries | 16:47 |
| ignas | that do excel | 16:47 |
| ignas | while doing open office with python | 16:47 |
| ignas | is *hell* | 16:48 |
| ignas | and i am not exaggerating | 16:48 |
| ignas | and all oo, gnumeric and ms office can produce excel 97 documents | 16:48 |
| ignas | and even google docs can do that iIrc | 16:48 |
| th1a | It is a little perverse. | 16:49 |
| ignas | th1a: you must start a fake X server | 16:49 |
| ignas | if you want to have it on a server | 16:49 |
| th1a | That's perverse, too. | 16:49 |
| ignas | and at least lyceum found it really convenient to provide me with their student list, class/form list as a spreadsheet | 16:49 |
| th1a | I know. | 16:49 |
| ignas | don't know about SLA | 16:50 |
| th1a | I'm not anti-spreadsheet. | 16:50 |
| th1a | Just surprised that Excel is easier than OO. | 16:50 |
| ignas | well - i was surprised too, when I found out that if i want to edit a document in both OO and gnumeric - i must use XLS | 16:50 |
| ignas | because it's the only format that they both share | 16:50 |
| ignas | (or at least shared 6 months ago) | 16:51 |
| th1a | I agree that it makes practical sense. | 16:51 |
| th1a | I'm just pre-emptively cringing over the indignant email that will appear on the list eventually. | 16:51 |
| ignas | sorry about that, but xlwt and xlrd (python libraries) are fantastic | 16:52 |
| ignas | i mean - i just put unicode - and it works | 16:52 |
| th1a | I've used some of the MS office libraries, too. | 16:53 |
| th1a | OK. xls it is. | 16:54 |
| th1a | If rms complains I'll tell him we accept patches. | 16:55 |
| ignas | :D | 16:55 |
| aelkner | can i ask about truetype fonts at this junture? | 16:56 |
| th1a | OK. What's yvl's status? | 16:56 |
| th1a | aelkner: Just a sec. | 16:57 |
| aelkner | ok | 16:57 |
| ignas | th1a: hmm, he is very busy with his other 20 hours that he has to spend internally, the full aggregate reports have been merged already, he is thinking about the new task | 16:57 |
| ignas | and has some questions, but hasn't written an email with them yet | 16:57 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:57 |
| th1a | Go ahead aelkner. | 16:58 |
| aelkner | so i updated sla with justas' pdf changes | 16:58 |
| aelkner | that lead me to notice that truetype fonts weren't installed on sla | 16:58 |
| aelkner | i found that out by following the message that i got in schooltool when running the pdf report | 16:59 |
| aelkner | that lead me to note that reportlab wasn't configured in schooltool.conf | 16:59 |
| aelkner | but before i commented that part in | 16:59 |
| th1a | You need to install the truetype package. | 16:59 |
| aelkner | yes, so how do i do that? | 17:00 |
| ignas | apt-get install msttcorefonts | 17:00 |
| aelkner | cool | 17:00 |
| aelkner | then i just remove the comment in the conf file, right? | 17:00 |
| th1a | aelkner: Did you see SLA has a new sys admin? | 17:00 |
| aelkner | no, how did you see that? | 17:00 |
| ignas | aelkner: yes i think so | 17:01 |
| aelkner | i didn't see any email to that effect | 17:01 |
| th1a | Did you see the other emails between Chris and I? | 17:02 |
| th1a | me | 17:02 |
| aelkner | i saw the thread, but i admit i didn't read it closely | 17:03 |
| th1a | :-s | 17:03 |
| aelkner | i found it | 17:04 |
| th1a | So anyhow, did you try to get sendmail going? | 17:04 |
| aelkner | i haven't gotten the book yet, i will today after voting | 17:04 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:05 |
| aelkner | ignas: i don't remember commenting the reportlab in | 17:05 |
| aelkner | is that because it happened automatically | 17:05 |
| ignas | aelkner: reportlab is disabled by default iirc | 17:05 |
| aelkner | at buildout time? | 17:05 |
| ignas | no buildout does not enable reportlab | 17:06 |
| aelkner | did i do it then and i just forget dong it? | 17:06 |
| ignas | yeah, i'd guess so ;) | 17:07 |
| th1a | I think we should make truetype a mandatory package. | 17:07 |
| th1a | Is it in universe or multiverse or something? | 17:07 |
| ignas | don't know really | 17:07 |
| ignas | but yeah, if you would submit a bug report | 17:08 |
| ignas | stating that you want reportlab enabled by default | 17:08 |
| ignas | on schooltool ubuntu installations | 17:08 |
| ignas | i'd do that as soon as i'll do another bugfix release, or even earlier | 17:08 |
| th1a | It is optional for a calendar but mandatory for a SIS. | 17:08 |
| ignas | yeah, i guess so | 17:09 |
| th1a | OK... let's think about reporting for a bit. | 17:10 |
| th1a | I'm leaning away from "have a reporting tab where you go to make all reports" toward "reports are views on persons/groups/etc." | 17:10 |
| th1a | I mean, they are probably views anyhow, but interm terms of UI/organization. | 17:11 |
| th1a | Go to group > click "Reports" action > select from available group reports. | 17:12 |
| ignas | well - i haven't thought about reports as a whole yet | 17:12 |
| ignas | i mean - at the moment we are doing them on demand | 17:12 |
| th1a | I'm trying to start a backgound process. | 17:12 |
| ignas | so they make more sense as separate views | 17:12 |
| th1a | In your brain. | 17:12 |
| ignas | though - without more than 2 usecases it is difficult to come up with a sensible abstraction | 17:13 |
| th1a | (that is, I'm starting a background process in your brain) | 17:13 |
| ignas | :) | 17:13 |
| ignas | at least up until now, most of the reports were very role centric it seems | 17:14 |
| ignas | Advisors of students | 17:14 |
| ignas | instructors of sections | 17:14 |
| th1a | One issue is that it can't really be hidden as a management thing, as a teacher might want to run reports on their section, a student might want to run a report on himself, etc. | 17:14 |
| ignas | administrators of schools | 17:14 |
| ignas | students on themselves | 17:15 |
| ignas | (or parents on their children) | 17:15 |
| th1a | Basically, I don't think we want to have to create a whole set of "Reports" views that have to filter out what a person has permission to see. | 17:16 |
| th1a | Rather, use existing navigation/permission/views to control what you can see and add a "reports" button. | 17:16 |
| th1a | If that makes any sense. | 17:16 |
| ignas | not sure if a "reports" button is good, i mean - at the moment we don't have that many reports | 17:17 |
| ignas | to require a menu item | 17:17 |
| ignas | that hides them under itself | 17:17 |
| ignas | when we will have like 3-4 different reports for a teacher + section combo | 17:17 |
| th1a | True. | 17:17 |
| ignas | then - reports makes sense | 17:17 |
| ignas | but for 2 reports | 17:17 |
| ignas | naming the reports and having "Narrative reports" action | 17:17 |
| th1a | We will need it, but right, we can wait. | 17:17 |
| ignas | for the section is the way to go | 17:18 |
| ignas | "narrative report" | 17:18 |
| ignas | + "grade report" | 17:18 |
| ignas | hmm | 17:18 |
| ignas | now that I think about it - having a printer icon, that expands into a list of possible reports | 17:19 |
| ignas | for the section you are looking | 17:19 |
| ignas | at | 17:19 |
| ignas | or the group you are looking at | 17:19 |
| th1a | That sounds nice. | 17:19 |
| ignas | would make sense, because otherwise users don | 17:19 |
| ignas | don't know whether to expect an html view | 17:19 |
| ignas | or a PDF | 17:19 |
| aelkner | right | 17:19 |
| ignas | and that is a bit confusing (at least imho) | 17:19 |
| aelkner | unless the menu item says PDF | 17:20 |
| th1a | One thing that Chris reminded me of yesterday is that sorting is crucial for the big runs. | 17:20 |
| aelkner | like justas did | 17:20 |
| ignas | th1a: yeah, justas was thinking about adding sorting by advisor to the aggregate report first | 17:20 |
| th1a | Yes, you need two level sorts (at least). | 17:20 |
| ignas | and then probably giving an option to print only reports for one advisor | 17:20 |
| ignas | oh, you mean like "Narratives by advisor" "Narratives by student" ? | 17:21 |
| ignas | sorted by | 17:21 |
| th1a | Well, I'm thinking if you want for all students, you go to the student group. | 17:21 |
| aelkner | yeah, that's the issue, report requesting in general | 17:21 |
| th1a | If you want for one section you go to the section, etc. | 17:21 |
| ignas | hmm, for some "exports" and "reports" | 17:21 |
| ignas | i was thinking about an abstraction that would involve all the table views | 17:22 |
| ignas | as in - if a view has a table | 17:22 |
| ignas | that you can sort | 17:22 |
| ignas | and filter | 17:22 |
| ignas | having a set of views on top of that view | 17:22 |
| ignas | that do stuff with the table in the view | 17:22 |
| ignas | like - if you have a table of all the students | 17:22 |
| ignas | in a group view | 17:22 |
| ignas | giving an option of exporting/reporting on the students in the table | 17:22 |
| ignas | filtered/sorted | 17:23 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:23 |
| ignas | according to the settings of the table that you have just defined... | 17:23 |
| th1a | Perfect. | 17:23 |
| ignas | maybe adding an icon on the corner of the table that is being rendered | 17:24 |
| ignas | we'll have to see | 17:24 |
| ignas | because dwelsh wanted to export all the emails of students for example... | 17:24 |
| ignas | and I think a usecase of - export all the student data for a section or do a report on them | 17:24 |
| ignas | might be useful as well | 17:24 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:25 |
| th1a | OK, that gives us something to think about. | 17:25 |
| th1a | It is on the right track, definitely. | 17:26 |
| th1a | OK. That's all I've got. | 17:26 |
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| th1a | Any last words? | 17:26 |
| ignas | hmm, you have gone to DST yes? ;) | 17:27 |
| th1a | Standard time. | 17:27 |
| th1a | You too? | 17:27 |
| ignas | (i had one meeting 15:30, but now I see that we started 16:30 which means - you have turned your clocks) | 17:27 |
| ignas | we should update the topic on the channel ;) | 17:28 |
| th1a | When do you switch yours? | 17:28 |
| ignas | a week ago | 17:28 |
| ignas | during weekend | 17:28 |
| th1a | OK. I don't think I have permission to switch the channel topic. | 17:29 |
| th1a | Have a great week, gentlemen! | 17:29 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 17:29 | |
| ignas | th1a: ayt? | 17:59 |
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| th1a | i am here. | 18:15 |
| th1a | ignas. | 18:16 |
| ignas | i was just wondering about the minimal set of imports | 18:17 |
| ignas | i am thinking that Persons, school years, courses, sections and groups | 18:17 |
| th1a | ignas: truetype is in multiverse, by the way. I think that's why we've kept it optional. | 18:17 |
| ignas | should be enough foe the first batch | 18:17 |
| ignas | th1a: well - we can extend our installation instructions | 18:18 |
| ignas | from just - add PPA | 18:18 |
| ignas | to - add PPA + enable multiverse | 18:18 |
| th1a | It is a problem if we were going to be in Ubuntu core. But that might be a while. I'm seeing the advantage of being able to quickly push changes to our PPA. | 18:19 |
| th1a | ignas: Actually, it might make sense to retain our existing sample data system for the data it doesn't make sense to import. | 18:20 |
| th1a | Because it is still nice to have the fake assignments, events, etc. | 18:21 |
| ignas | yeah, on the other hand - i would rather generate it for existing sections | 18:21 |
| ignas | instead of insisting on a predefined list of sections | 18:21 |
| th1a | Yes. | 18:21 |
| ignas | that you must generate using our sample data machinery | 18:21 |
| th1a | So: step 1 - import scripts; step 2 - sample data generation that iterates over existing persons, sections, etc. | 18:22 |
| ignas | yeah, for things like events probably | 18:23 |
| ignas | not sure if there are that many other things we don't want to do user import for | 18:23 |
| ignas | maybe grades | 18:23 |
| ignas | but i can see exporting grades | 18:24 |
| ignas | and if we can do exporting, maybe allowing users to import would be nice too | 18:24 |
| th1a | It is a spreadsheet either way. | 18:24 |
| ignas | yeah, events would be easy to do as a spreadsheet too, if we did not have recurrence | 18:25 |
| ignas | but recurrence needs something like ICAL | 18:25 |
| ignas | to get exported/imported properly | 18:25 |
| th1a | We don't need that for sample data. | 18:25 |
| th1a | But for real import/export of calendar can't we already use iCal? | 18:26 |
| ignas | so at the moment I am going for persons, years, terms, courses, sections, groups, timetable schemas, timetables approximatelly in that order | 18:26 |
| ignas | th1a: well, in theory - yes | 18:26 |
| ignas | th1a: in practice - have you tried writing a script that does ical export of all the calendars for all the users, sections and groups? | 18:26 |
| ignas | could you do it? | 18:27 |
| * ignas wants teachers to be able to use our import/export ;) | 18:27 | |
| ignas | which is why I don't want XML | 18:27 |
| th1a | The difference is that other calendar applications use iCal. | 18:28 |
| ignas | yep, and iCal is fine | 18:28 |
| ignas | for seeing your schooltool calendar | 18:28 |
| ignas | in your other calendar application | 18:28 |
| ignas | not so good for exporting all the calendars in the system so you could back them up in a text format and import them all back if you need it | 18:29 |
| ignas | but I can think of something in the future | 18:29 |
| ignas | for now - random event generation | 18:29 |
| ignas | for your calendar will be good enough | 18:29 |
| ignas | or for all the calendars in the system/ all calendars of sections/ all calendars of users and stuff | 18:29 |
| ignas | th1a: could you come up/ find some example courses ? | 18:30 |
| ignas | with descriptions | 18:30 |
| th1a | Actually, random calendar events aren't a particularly important kind of sample data anyhow. | 18:30 |
| ignas | th1a: yep, which is why they are somewhere after timetables | 18:30 |
| ignas | in my list | 18:30 |
| th1a | OK. I'll get some sample course descriptions. | 18:31 |
| ignas | thanks | 18:31 |
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