| aelkner | fsufitch: ping | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| *** jhancock___ has quit IRC | 00:13 | |
| fsufitch | aelkner: pong | 00:15 |
| aelkner | what up? | 00:15 |
| fsufitch | remember the person I emailed you and the others about? | 00:15 |
| fsufitch | the one that wantecd to join cando? | 00:15 |
| aelkner | yeah | 00:15 |
| fsufitch | well, he quit | 00:15 |
| fsufitch | but one of his friends wants to join instead | 00:15 |
| aelkner | why? | 00:15 |
| aelkner | why did he quit? | 00:16 |
| fsufitch | he wants a paying job asap, i.e. he wouldn't have time for all the zope learning curve | 00:16 |
| aelkner | i see | 00:16 |
| aelkner | greedy one | 00:16 |
| fsufitch | which is y the second person joined, cuz they're more into just learning to be a better programmer | 00:16 |
| aelkner | :) | 00:16 |
| fsufitch | yep | 00:16 |
| aelkner | cool | 00:16 |
| aelkner | so, you're going to poijt him to the docs, right? | 00:17 |
| fsufitch | fyi, it's a her | 00:17 |
| fsufitch | (gasp a girl working on cando :O) | 00:17 |
| aelkner | happened before, don't you remember? | 00:17 |
| fsufitch | u mean during internship? | 00:17 |
| aelkner | yup | 00:17 |
| fsufitch | well that was a larger crowd ;) | 00:17 |
| aelkner | haha | 00:17 |
| fsufitch | anyway, we'll see how it turns out | 00:17 |
| fsufitch | but i pointed her to the zope3 zcontact tutorial that pcardune made for us | 00:18 |
| aelkner | that's great, a start | 00:18 |
| aelkner | a good one | 00:18 |
| fsufitch | and btw, i really enjoyed my learning curve with cando | 00:18 |
| fsufitch | going from zcontact -> some independent project -> fixing minor bugs in cando/timeclock | 00:18 |
| aelkner | have you seen this link? http://www.muthukadan.net/docs/zca.html | 00:19 |
| fsufitch | i dont know if it would be optimal for this person, but meh | 00:19 |
| fsufitch | no i haven't | 00:19 |
| aelkner | check it out | 00:19 |
| aelkner | it may be too advanced for your friend | 00:19 |
| aelkner | but if you master it | 00:19 |
| aelkner | you could then later pass it on to her | 00:19 |
| fsufitch | ook | 00:19 |
| aelkner | after she's gotten the zcontact thing down | 00:20 |
| fsufitch | whoa! | 00:20 |
| fsufitch | i'm bookmarking this! | 00:20 |
| aelkner | amazing isn;'t it? | 00:20 |
| fsufitch | yeah! | 00:20 |
| aelkner | it's kind of like a combo | 00:20 |
| aelkner | of a great tutorial | 00:20 |
| fsufitch | and a great reference book | 00:20 |
| aelkner | and a very useful reference | 00:20 |
| fsufitch | yup :D | 00:20 |
| aelkner | like the back of Phillip's book, only better | 00:20 |
| fsufitch | heh i remember this summer when people kept referring to that book and I was confused because of its author's name ;) | 00:21 |
| aelkner | bascially, the one pooint i like the best | 00:21 |
| aelkner | is that the ZCA coimes down to two things | 00:21 |
| aelkner | adapters and utilitties | 00:21 |
| aelkner | adapters are factories | 00:21 |
| aelkner | and utilities are objects | 00:22 |
| aelkner | that actually helped me clear up some of the confusion i had | 00:22 |
| aelkner | about the ZCA | 00:22 |
| aelkner | so views and subscribers are just adapters | 00:22 |
| aelkner | everything is an adapter (except a utility) | 00:22 |
| fsufitch | now you're confusing me <_< | 00:23 |
| aelkner | really? | 00:23 |
| fsufitch | yeah | 00:23 |
| fsufitch | i sort of go with the ZCA as i go | 00:23 |
| fsufitch | i never tried to understand it fully | 00:23 |
| fsufitch | well | 00:23 |
| fsufitch | i did try | 00:23 |
| aelkner | thats's just it | 00:23 |
| fsufitch | but whenever i did i got a splitting headache | 00:23 |
| aelkner | right | 00:23 |
| aelkner | but the link i just gave you helps | 00:24 |
| aelkner | get rid of the headache part | 00:24 |
| fsufitch | ook | 00:24 |
| aelkner | important: | 00:24 |
| aelkner | when pdb'ing zope internals | 00:24 |
| aelkner | which one needs to do to trouble-shoot many problems | 00:24 |
| aelkner | you'll notice that things are always being adapted | 00:25 |
| aelkner | all around the code base | 00:25 |
| fsufitch | yeah | 00:25 |
| aelkner | so that's why it helps to know how everythiong's an aapter | 00:25 |
| aelkner | an to not be bothered by that fact | 00:25 |
| aelkner | but rather happy to know it | 00:25 |
| aelkner | it's a concept that onbe only needs to learn once | 00:25 |
| aelkner | and then it gets applied EVERYWHERE | 00:26 |
| aelkner | ans that helps | 00:26 |
| aelkner | it's just a matter of getting the concept | 00:26 |
| aelkner | so i recommend reading the tutorial | 00:26 |
| aelkner | and mastering the concepts | 00:26 |
| fsufitch | ok | 00:26 |
| aelkner | then later you could pass it on to her | 00:26 |
| aelkner | name? | 00:26 |
| fsufitch | esther li | 00:27 |
| fsufitch | she'll be joining the dev mtg today | 00:27 |
| aelkner | terrific | 00:27 |
| fsufitch | just to "observe" | 00:27 |
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| fsufitch | aelkner: u still there? | 00:32 |
| aelkner | yup | 00:32 |
| fsufitch | i have a question about what i'm supposed to do with the bug | 00:32 |
| fsufitch | i found out how the ajax thing works to some degree | 00:33 |
| fsufitch | with the browsercode interacting with the server | 00:33 |
| fsufitch | but the server needs to give a response immediately | 00:33 |
| fsufitch | and the ajax needs to be activated on the client side to receive the new "status" of the message | 00:33 |
| fsufitch | i.e. if it's processed yet | 00:34 |
| fsufitch | so i don't see how i can make it stay at "loading" or "processing" until it actually is processed, then for it to change to "processed" | 00:34 |
| fsufitch | unless i make a refresh button pop up, but that just seems wrong | 00:34 |
| aelkner | i'm on the phone | 00:35 |
| aelkner | on sec | 00:36 |
| aelkner | it's mt grandmother's bday | 00:37 |
| fsufitch | ooh | 00:37 |
| fsufitch | happy birthday to her :) | 00:37 |
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| aelkner | fsufitch: i'm back | 01:21 |
| aelkner | my grandmother sure likes to talk | 01:21 |
| aelkner | but she's allowed | 01:21 |
| fsufitch | and u do too ;) | 01:21 |
| fsufitch | i dont mind | 01:21 |
| fsufitch | i got some extra work done for my ap us history class | 01:21 |
| aelkner | haha | 01:21 |
| aelkner | so i read your points | 01:21 |
| aelkner | and it looks like you have a really difficult problem on your hands | 01:22 |
| aelkner | unfortunbately i don't know ajax yet | 01:22 |
| aelkner | but paul does | 01:22 |
| aelkner | perhaps you could email him for advise | 01:22 |
| fsufitch | i know some basic REGULAR ajax | 01:22 |
| fsufitch | but not zope+ajax | 01:22 |
| fsufitch | that's just insane | 01:22 |
| fsufitch | ok | 01:22 |
| aelkner | paul has been all over that | 01:22 |
| fsufitch | ah | 01:22 |
| aelkner | so if you pick his brain | 01:23 |
| fsufitch | well it seems like a good thing to get a grip on | 01:23 |
| aelkner | you will help the cando team in a great way | 01:23 |
| fsufitch | :) | 01:23 |
| fsufitch | ok then | 01:23 |
| fsufitch | i'll contact him | 01:23 |
| aelkner | great | 01:23 |
| fsufitch | do u know who's going to be here for the 2000 hr mtg? | 01:23 |
| fsufitch | nitromaster is out of town | 01:23 |
| aelkner | welsh promised he would be there | 01:23 |
| fsufitch | in NJ or someplace like that | 01:23 |
| aelkner | jason has to be as project manager | 01:23 |
| fsufitch | jason is not here | 01:24 |
| aelkner | my brother probably | 01:24 |
| fsufitch | see the topic for this channel | 01:24 |
| fsufitch | "no lumiere at st-dev 2-18" | 01:24 |
| aelkner | ooh | 01:24 |
| fsufitch | no light!! :( | 01:24 |
| aelkner | right | 01:24 |
| aelkner | so it will be a short meeting | 01:24 |
| fsufitch | quite | 01:26 |
| fsufitch | well u'll get to know esther :-P | 01:26 |
| fsufitch | she's not the best coder i've seen, (which is y she wants to join cando), but aside from that she's brilliant | 01:27 |
| fsufitch | she's currently a freshman at MIT | 01:27 |
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| fsufitch | ccarey: hello | 02:52 |
| ccarey | hi fsufitch | 02:52 |
| fsufitch | enjoying your looong weekend, ccarey | 02:52 |
| fsufitch | ? | 02:52 |
| *** HaoQi_Li has joined #schooltool | 02:53 | |
| ccarey | its been alright | 02:53 |
| ccarey | you? | 02:53 |
| *** HaoQi_Li has left #schooltool | 02:53 | |
| fsufitch | i'm fine | 02:53 |
| fsufitch | a little much work... | 02:53 |
| fsufitch | i'd have liked more relax time | 02:53 |
| ccarey | same | 02:53 |
| ccarey | did you get my email about the bug fix? | 02:53 |
| fsufitch | i think i did but i didn't have time to check it over | 02:54 |
| ccarey | ok | 02:54 |
| fsufitch | could you just fill me in on what's going on? | 02:54 |
| ccarey | sure | 02:55 |
| ccarey | in the skilldrivers container view for a section | 02:55 |
| ccarey | the user can't determine the section skilldrivers from the course skilldrivers | 02:55 |
| *** haoqili has joined #schooltool | 02:55 | |
| ccarey | and the course skilldrivers should not be deletable from that page | 02:56 |
| ccarey | my fix was in the SectionSkillDriversView | 02:56 |
| ccarey | added methods getSectionSkillDrivers and getCourseSkillDrivers | 02:57 |
| *** jelkner has joined #schooltool | 02:57 | |
| ccarey | so the two can be separated | 02:57 |
| fsufitch | ah | 02:57 |
| fsufitch | and you modified the pages that are being rendered using those to conform to the new methods? | 02:57 |
| fsufitch | jelkner: good evening | 02:57 |
| jelkner | fsuficth: good evening | 02:58 |
| jelkner | now if i could only spell your nick right ;-) | 02:58 |
| Lumiere | hi | 02:58 |
| ccarey | fsufitch: for that page in sections, and that page in courses | 02:58 |
| ccarey | not sure where else it is used | 02:58 |
| Lumiere | jelkner: f<tab> | 02:58 |
| jelkner | cool! | 02:58 |
| jelkner | i didn't know about that | 02:59 |
| aelkner | jelkner: where's dwelsh? | 02:59 |
| fsufitch | ccarey: ok | 02:59 |
| jelkner | aelkner: i don't expect him | 02:59 |
| jelkner | he can't make 8 pm weekday meetings | 02:59 |
| Lumiere | no dwelsh | 02:59 |
| aelkner | oh well, last time we spoke he said he'd be here | 02:59 |
| Lumiere | who's here | 02:59 |
| Lumiere | say hi | 02:59 |
| aelkner | low | 02:59 |
| jelkner | but Lumiere has been empowered to make any decisions we would need him for | 02:59 |
| aelkner | i know who's in charge : | 03:00 |
| jelkner | so Lumiere is the man | 03:00 |
| fsufitch | Lumiere: may i have the floor for a sec? | 03:00 |
| Lumiere | fsufitch: as soon as everyone checks in | 03:00 |
| Lumiere | ccarey? | 03:00 |
| Lumiere | no andrew | 03:00 |
| ccarey | ccarey is here | 03:00 |
| fsufitch | andrew is in NJ | 03:00 |
| Lumiere | k | 03:00 |
| fsufitch | or some exotic place like that | 03:00 |
| fsufitch | *"exotic" | 03:01 |
| fsufitch | anybody else we're expecting? | 03:01 |
| jelkner | fsufitch: i've heard nj called a lot of things, but *never* exotic ;-) | 03:01 |
| Lumiere | lol | 03:01 |
| Lumiere | ok, first order of business | 03:01 |
| Lumiere | dev updates | 03:01 |
| Lumiere | fsufitch: what have you been working on this week | 03:01 |
| Lumiere | and what did you need to talk about? | 03:02 |
| fsufitch | well, i've been working on that high priority bug i've been assigned | 03:02 |
| Lumiere | ok | 03:02 |
| fsufitch | but am running into some difficulties with ajax+zope | 03:02 |
| fsufitch | aelkner recommended i contact pcardune | 03:02 |
| Lumiere | pcardune is the one to ask | 03:02 |
| fsufitch | yep | 03:02 |
| fsufitch | so i'll do that | 03:02 |
| Lumiere | he wrote all AJAX in zope stuff | 03:03 |
| Lumiere | basically | 03:03 |
| aelkner | that will help greatly | 03:03 |
| fsufitch | cool | 03:03 |
| fsufitch | and as for what i wanted to say | 03:03 |
| fsufitch | remember the email i sent about the new guy (Myles Maxfield) wanting to join CanDo? | 03:03 |
| Lumiere | yea | 03:03 |
| Lumiere | new people joining is a dwelsh thing imo | 03:03 |
| fsufitch | he quit, for reasons that i suspect being what aelkner calls "greedy" | 03:03 |
| fsufitch | but | 03:04 |
| fsufitch | there's a new person, the person he got to contact me thru | 03:04 |
| fsufitch | and she's here now: haoqili | 03:04 |
| jelkner | fsufitch: actually, you should talk to me about that | 03:04 |
| Lumiere | yea | 03:04 |
| fsufitch | jelkner: i'm talking | 03:04 |
| fsufitch | wat do u think? | 03:04 |
| aelkner | fsufitch: when did i say greedy? | 03:04 |
| jelkner | here is what i told you: | 03:05 |
| fsufitch | aelkner: earlier | 03:05 |
| jelkner | 1. have him jump on #schooltool | 03:05 |
| aelkner | ?? | 03:05 |
| Lumiere | jelkner: haoqili is here now | 03:05 |
| Lumiere | so 1 is done | 03:05 |
| jelkner | and get something from ignas to do | 03:05 |
| jelkner | 2. do it | 03:05 |
| aelkner | fsufitch: I don't remember hearing about Myles, only Esther | 03:05 |
| jelkner | 3. then once ignas sees what he can do | 03:05 |
| fsufitch | jelkner: haoqili hasn't touched zope ever, so this is somethign from 0 that we're talking about | 03:05 |
| jelkner | fsufitch: i understand | 03:06 |
| Lumiere | fsufitch: we can't pay anything to start... but pcardune's tutorial is a place to start | 03:06 |
| jelkner | but we won't be paying people to learn anymore | 03:06 |
| jelkner | you guys were lucky that way | 03:06 |
| fsufitch | Lumiere: haoqili knows that | 03:06 |
| Lumiere | k | 03:06 |
| fsufitch | she wants to join here to learn better programming and maybe eventually be able to work for moneys | 03:06 |
| jelkner | great! | 03:06 |
| jelkner | fsufitch: you should help teach her | 03:06 |
| fsufitch | jelkner: that works | 03:07 |
| jelkner | that was my diabolical plan | 03:07 |
| fsufitch | heh | 03:07 |
| jelkner | i hoped to get enough of you into this that you would teach others | 03:07 |
| fsufitch | why not? :) | 03:07 |
| jelkner | fsufitch: so, did i answer your questions? | 03:08 |
| fsufitch | yeah | 03:08 |
| fsufitch | so i'll be spending some *unpaid* time teaching haoqili zope? | 03:08 |
| jelkner | what are friends for? | 03:09 |
| jelkner | besides, its fun! | 03:09 |
| jelkner | s/it's/its | 03:09 |
| fsufitch | allright :) | 03:09 |
| haoqili | Thank you everybody, esp. fsufitch | 03:10 |
| Lumiere | hi haoqili | 03:10 |
| haoqili | hi | 03:10 |
| jelkner | haoqili: welcome to schooltool! | 03:10 |
| fsufitch | haoqili: i told you we're a friendly crew. we don't bite ;) | 03:11 |
| haoqili | I'm at college so I won't be able to spend lots of time doing this project, perhaps no more than 4 hours / week. | 03:11 |
| Lumiere | haoqili: by may at 4 hours a week | 03:11 |
| haoqili | I'm here because I'm interested in learning about computers | 03:12 |
| jelkner | great | 03:12 |
| jelkner | that is the best reason to be here | 03:12 |
| Lumiere | you will probably be close to being able to contribute in a positive way | 03:12 |
| Lumiere | haoqili: if you haven't noticed jelkner's a teacher | 03:12 |
| haoqili | really? | 03:12 |
| Lumiere | yea High School Computer Science... | 03:12 |
| haoqili | oh | 03:12 |
| haoqili | anywhere close to Virginia? | 03:13 |
| jelkner | in virginia | 03:13 |
| Lumiere | the CanDo part of SchoolTool is written by/for Arlington County Public Schools | 03:13 |
| haoqili | Ah I see. | 03:13 |
| Lumiere | ccarey: what have you been working on this week? | 03:14 |
| Lumiere | anything you're stuck on need help with or need to talk about? | 03:14 |
| ccarey | i wrote a fix for my bug | 03:14 |
| Lumiere | just as a note while he types... fsufitch / ccarey / (nitromaster) you should all expect | 03:14 |
| Lumiere | to be asked what you did last week :) | 03:14 |
| Lumiere | at this meeting | 03:14 |
| jelkner | anyone heard from andrew? | 03:14 |
| Lumiere | jelkner: fsufitch noted that he was in NJ | 03:15 |
| fsufitch | andrew, as i said is away to "exotic" places | 03:15 |
| jelkner | ahh yes | 03:15 |
| fsufitch | but i dont know what he's up to in work terms | 03:15 |
| jelkner | what about eldar? | 03:15 |
| jelkner | have folks been in touch with him? | 03:15 |
| ccarey | i thought i could take a look another bug listed - sorting skilldrivers by date | 03:15 |
| jelkner | he told me he could do 7 hours a week | 03:15 |
| Lumiere | I talked to him a bit | 03:15 |
| ccarey | but i got stuck | 03:15 |
| jelkner | good | 03:15 |
| Lumiere | ccarey: just in general, check with me by email on wishlist or incomplete bugs ;) | 03:16 |
| ccarey | ok | 03:16 |
| Lumiere | cause I have some information I could have sent you on that one | 03:16 |
| Lumiere | that would have helped clarify how to go about it | 03:16 |
| aelkner | Lumiere: i need to get myself back onto the cando-checkins list | 03:16 |
| ccarey | that's good | 03:16 |
| aelkner | somehow i'm not getting any checkin notifications | 03:16 |
| ccarey | so what should i do with my fix? | 03:17 |
| aelkner | that would help | 03:17 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: ask mg from pov | 03:17 |
| Lumiere | ccarey: keep working on it | 03:17 |
| Lumiere | ccarey and send me an email reminding me to dump the stuff about it out of my brain | 03:17 |
| Lumiere | :) | 03:17 |
| ccarey | Lumiere: i think its ready, so i'm not sure what else i can do with it | 03:18 |
| ccarey | i ran tests, and checked the pages | 03:19 |
| fsufitch | ccarey: all the tests pass with no probs? | 03:19 |
| ccarey | yup | 03:19 |
| aelkner | Lumiere: i don't see any code changes to the repository in trac | 03:19 |
| aelkner | what up? | 03:20 |
| fsufitch | aelkner: maybe because there were no checkins? | 03:20 |
| fsufitch | i haven't checked in anything | 03:20 |
| aelkner | i thought people were working on bugs? | 03:20 |
| fsufitch | ccarey hasn't | 03:20 |
| aelkner | oh, that's right | 03:20 |
| fsufitch | well yeah but no commits yet | 03:20 |
| ccarey | Lumiere: actually Will Brady mentioned something else in the bug - in what page are skilldrivers being graded | 03:20 |
| aelkner | he's with ignas on the other project | 03:20 |
| aelkner | and fsufitch has not checked in cause his project is research oriented | 03:21 |
| aelkner | and he and i disdussed it today | 03:21 |
| ccarey | Lumiere: because in that page, he mentions that course drivers and section drivers are still mixed together | 03:21 |
| Lumiere | ccarey: I'll help you with that | 03:21 |
| ccarey | ok | 03:21 |
| aelkner | i think he shouyld be out zope/ajax expert | 03:21 |
| Lumiere | that's what I'll send | 03:21 |
| aelkner | and get with paul to learn about z3c.ajax | 03:22 |
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| Lumiere | ccarey: go ahead and commit it | 03:22 |
| Lumiere | ccarey: worst case I revert | 03:22 |
| Lumiere | ;) | 03:22 |
| aelkner | fsufitch: you should just look on-line for z3c.ajax (name?) | 03:22 |
| fsufitch | Lumiere: does ccarey have commit access? | 03:22 |
| ccarey | will do | 03:22 |
| fsufitch | aelkner: it's z3c.formjs | 03:22 |
| fsufitch | and i can't find anything on it | 03:22 |
| aelkner | fsufitch: thanks | 03:22 |
| fsufitch | i can find stuff on z3c.form | 03:23 |
| fsufitch | but not useful | 03:23 |
| aelkner | so oaul worked on that as part of the Google summer of code | 03:23 |
| aelkner | he had stpehan as mentor | 03:23 |
| fsufitch | fun | 03:23 |
| aelkner | anyway, if you master that | 03:23 |
| Lumiere | fsufitch: if he doesn't I'll poke eldar and ignas about it | 03:23 |
| fsufitch | much fun, especially with srichter there XD | 03:23 |
| fsufitch | okay | 03:23 |
| fsufitch | thanks for the support, guys :) | 03:23 |
| aelkner | it will be important for getting cando under control | 03:23 |
| aelkner | user interface-wise | 03:23 |
| fsufitch | yup | 03:23 |
| fsufitch | ajax can work miracles for UI | 03:24 |
| aelkner | but don't overuse it | 03:24 |
| fsufitch | i learned so from my dad | 03:24 |
| aelkner | i want to warn about this | 03:24 |
| fsufitch | yeah, then it slows stuff down | 03:24 |
| fsufitch | too much comm overhead | 03:24 |
| aelkner | always think about a novice looking at what you're doing | 03:24 |
| aelkner | if the novice is turned off, it's the coder's fault | 03:24 |
| Lumiere | also think about someone on a modem | 03:25 |
| aelkner | dojn['t always se complex technology | 03:25 |
| fsufitch | yeah | 03:25 |
| aelkner | use | 03:25 |
| aelkner | when simpler solutipons work | 03:25 |
| aelkner | think about: | 03:25 |
| aelkner | "why use ajax?" | 03:25 |
| fsufitch | yeah | 03:25 |
| jelkner | less is more | 03:26 |
| aelkner | what problem does is sove that javascript doesn';t already solve | 03:26 |
| aelkner | the answer to that will come down to | 03:26 |
| jelkner | easier to understand, easier to maintain | 03:26 |
| aelkner | a small matter of trying to reduce | 03:26 |
| aelkner | the number of bytes transfered | 03:26 |
| aelkner | from server to browser | 03:26 |
| fsufitch | "do i really need my server to process this info, or can the communication be avoided?" | 03:26 |
| aelkner | when one considers that ajax is used to solve this problem | 03:26 |
| aelkner | using it too prevelently is a big mistake | 03:27 |
| aelkner | anyway | 03:27 |
| ccarey | Lumiere: i got jinty to get me commit access to cando, but the username and/or password he gave me fails | 03:27 |
| aelkner | let's make sure we clearly define why it's being used | 03:27 |
| aelkner | in doctests! | 03:27 |
| aelkner | ok, enough said | 03:27 |
| fsufitch | aelkner: allright | 03:28 |
| Lumiere | ccarey: then let him know and ask him to help (or bug eldar) | 03:28 |
| ccarey | k | 03:29 |
| Lumiere | jelkner / aelkner do you have anything you need to talk about? | 03:31 |
| aelkner | nothing more | 03:31 |
| jelkner | no, and it is 8:30 | 03:31 |
| jelkner | so let's call it a night | 03:31 |
| jelkner | until next week | 03:32 |
| Lumiere | ok *tosses the bucket out the window* | 03:32 |
| fsufitch | Lumiere: bucket? | 03:32 |
| * Lumiere runs to get food | 03:32 | |
| Lumiere | fsufitch: why not | 03:32 |
| aelkner | and hits the guy with the gravel | 03:32 |
| fsufitch | i thought it was gravel | 03:32 |
| Lumiere | bucket filled with gravel? | 03:32 |
| jelkner | th1a has gravel | 03:32 |
| fsufitch | ahh | 03:32 |
| fsufitch | ok | 03:32 |
| Lumiere | I haven't found mine yet | 03:32 |
| jelkner | Lumiere has whatever he wants | 03:32 |
| fsufitch | what about your hammer? | 03:32 |
| Lumiere | I may just start throwing computer parts out the window | 03:32 |
| jelkner | cya all later | 03:32 |
| fsufitch | my head *still* hurts | 03:33 |
| aelkner | i'm stepping away, too | 03:33 |
| fsufitch | ;) | 03:33 |
| fsufitch | ok | 03:33 |
| fsufitch | cyall | 03:33 |
| Lumiere | I haven't eaten | 03:33 |
| Lumiere | since 2 | 03:33 |
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| Lumiere | ugh | 03:33 |
| fsufitch | Lumiere: go eat! | 03:33 |
| Lumiere | yea | 03:33 |
| Lumiere | what to eat though | 03:33 |
| fsufitch | food! | 03:33 |
| Lumiere | I may just go be ueber bad | 03:33 |
| Lumiere | and get popeyes | 03:33 |
| fsufitch | no crazytalk | 03:33 |
| haoqili | hello? | 03:34 |
| fsufitch | haoqili: yo | 03:34 |
| haoqili | anybody else around? | 03:34 |
| ccarey | still here | 03:34 |
| haoqili | does anybody have advice for how to get started? | 03:35 |
| fsufitch | i did recommend the zcontact tutorial thing that pcardune put us through | 03:35 |
| fsufitch | ccarey: what do you think? | 03:35 |
| ccarey | yeah, that should still be online right? | 03:35 |
| fsufitch | it is | 03:35 |
| haoqili | ok | 03:35 |
| haoqili | :D Thank you so much! | 03:35 |
| fsufitch | i sent it to haoqili alredy | 03:35 |
| fsufitch | also, you might want to go through making your own little independent project | 03:36 |
| haoqili | ehh | 03:36 |
| fsufitch | to flex your zope skills | 03:36 |
| fsufitch | after zcontact of course | 03:36 |
| haoqili | yeah | 03:36 |
| haoqili | :) | 03:36 |
| ccarey | http://dc.ubuntu-us.org/bazaar/zope3class/html/ | 03:36 |
| ccarey | its still up | 03:36 |
| fsufitch | like, i made a forum thing | 03:36 |
| fsufitch | whoa cool, it's ACTUALLY up online! | 03:36 |
| fsufitch | i got it from launchpad | 03:36 |
| haoqili | what is? | 03:36 |
| fsufitch | the zcontact tutorial i sent you | 03:36 |
| fsufitch | you can see it in good working html online at the link ccarey gave | 03:37 |
| fsufitch | i would highly recommend bookmarking that | 03:37 |
| fsufitch | i still sometimes return to it when i have a basic problem that i'm missing the simple answer to ;) | 03:37 |
| fsufitch | anyway | 03:38 |
| fsufitch | haoqili: any particular time you'd like to start going thru the tutorial? | 03:38 |
| haoqili | Fujitsu: tonight | 03:39 |
| haoqili | fsufitch: tonigiht* | 03:39 |
| fsufitch | ok | 03:39 |
| haoqili | gnight | 03:41 |
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| fsufitch | aelkner: you still there? | 05:30 |
| fsufitch | guess not | 05:30 |
| fsufitch | nvm then | 05:30 |
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| aelkner_ | ignas: ayt? | 16:32 |
| ignas | yes | 16:32 |
| aelkner_ | a while back i removed new and edit requirement actions | 16:33 |
| aelkner_ | now they are back | 16:33 |
| aelkner_ | do you know how they got back in there? | 16:33 |
| ignas | look at teggs | 16:33 |
| ignas | at eggs | 16:33 |
| ignas | and see what version of schooltool.gradebook is being used | 16:33 |
| ignas | and could you tell me in which checking did you remove these actions? | 16:34 |
| ignas | *checkin | 16:34 |
| ignas | maybe it was after I moved schooltool.gradebook into a separate egg | 16:34 |
| aelkner_ | schooltool.gradebook-0.1dev_r7445-py2.4.egg | 16:34 |
| aelkner_ | why does trac only go back to dec 19 of last year? | 16:36 |
| aelkner_ | i think i made the change before that | 16:36 |
| ignas | maybe trac is not too good at tracking svn mv | 16:37 |
| ignas | anyway - you should just checkout schooltool.gradebook the way you do with schooltool | 16:37 |
| ignas | as a development egg | 16:37 |
| ignas | and see if the problem is still there | 16:38 |
| ignas | if it is - then look at the schooltool.gradebook code | 16:38 |
| ignas | or you might try "bin/buildout -n" first | 16:38 |
| ignas | just to see if more up to date eggs fix the problem | 16:38 |
| aelkner_ | looking at schooltool.gradebook in trac shows that the menu items are still there | 16:39 |
| ignas | if you could point out the checkin | 16:40 |
| ignas | i could look at the reason why it's in there | 16:40 |
| aelkner_ | ignas: i can't find the check-in | 16:47 |
| aelkner_ | shoulc i just remove the menu items again from schooltool.gradebook? | 16:48 |
| ignas | yes | 16:48 |
| aelkner_ | ok | 16:48 |
| aelkner_ | ignas: i can remove those menu items from the requirements package | 16:56 |
| aelkner_ | but that would mean removing tests | 16:56 |
| aelkner_ | would that be ok with you? | 16:57 |
| aelkner_ | look at schooltool.gradebook/src/schooltool/requirement/browser/README.txt | 16:57 |
| ignas | well - schooltool.gradebook is yours now ;) | 16:57 |
| aelkner_ | and tell me what you think | 16:57 |
| aelkner_ | i seem to remember that you didn't care much about requirements | 16:57 |
| aelkner_ | but i wanted to make sure | 16:58 |
| ignas | i think that they are very very broken | 16:58 |
| ignas | and don't really know how to fix them | 16:58 |
| ignas | the bug that killed the Data.fs for one of the teachers is still in there | 16:58 |
| ignas | and I think i have shown you another way to cause a traceback using requirements in cando | 16:58 |
| aelkner_ | i believe the problem with requirements comes from the inheritance mechanism | 16:59 |
| aelkner_ | that schooltool.gradebook doesn't use | 17:00 |
| aelkner_ | but that cando does | 17:00 |
| ignas | i see | 17:00 |
| aelkner_ | and we will have to fix that (maybe at pytcon) | 17:00 |
| ignas | will cando still work if you will remove these actions? | 17:00 |
| aelkner_ | yes, because cando has its own sub-class of requirements called competencies | 17:00 |
| ignas | i see | 17:01 |
| aelkner_ | with its own menu items | 17:01 |
| ignas | then i think it's safe to remove the test | 17:01 |
| aelkner_ | so that's why i know we don't need the menu items | 17:01 |
| aelkner_ | but | 17:01 |
| ignas | hmm | 17:01 |
| ignas | you might change the test | 17:01 |
| aelkner_ | it's a theoretical thing | 17:01 |
| ignas | to access views directly | 17:01 |
| aelkner_ | the requirements package itself is in theory | 17:01 |
| aelkner_ | a package unto itself | 17:01 |
| aelkner_ | and would need the menu items to do its own funcitonal tests | 17:02 |
| aelkner_ | but then again | 17:02 |
| aelkner_ | maybe we could expect that the requirements package is ALWAYS sub-classed | 17:02 |
| aelkner_ | as is the case in practice so far | 17:03 |
| ignas | maybe... | 17:03 |
| aelkner_ | right now we have schooltool.gradebook.activities | 17:03 |
| ignas | if you only want to huide them for your client | 17:03 |
| aelkner_ | and cando.virginia.competenices | 17:03 |
| ignas | then having a layer | 17:03 |
| ignas | and overlaying menu items with empty viewlets | 17:03 |
| ignas | would be a bit cleaner | 17:03 |
| aelkner_ | but more work :) | 17:04 |
| ignas | it's always that way | 17:04 |
| aelkner_ | and i was hoping to be done with this problem quickly | 17:04 |
| aelkner_ | so i could return to sla work | 17:04 |
| aelkner_ | would you mind if i remove the menu items and tests and later | 17:05 |
| aelkner_ | put them back (say at pycon) | 17:05 |
| aelkner_ | when we're dealing more with codebase than application issues | 17:05 |
| * ignas is not optimistic enough to believe that we'll have time for everything we want to do in PyCon | 17:06 | |
| aelkner_ | :) | 17:06 |
| aelkner_ | i'm still leaning toward removing the menu items and tests | 17:07 |
| aelkner_ | to solve both jelkner-gradebook and cando's problem with one quick change | 17:07 |
| aelkner_ | without side-tracking myself back to two different projects | 17:08 |
| aelkner_ | that don't deserve my interest right now | 17:08 |
| ignas | well - it's your package, so if anything will break - you will suffer | 17:08 |
| aelkner_ | i guess you don't mind if i decide this, right? | 17:08 |
| ignas | the only reliable way to make these decisions is when the person who will feel the consequences makes them | 17:09 |
| aelkner_ | it's just menu items that noone uses | 17:09 |
| ignas | it makes people learn ;) | 17:09 |
| aelkner_ | if i'm the only one who stand to feel any consequences, then i'm comfortable removing the menu items | 17:10 |
| ignas | and - both ways actually are so easy to do, that you could have done it the right way instead of discussing it with me ;) | 17:10 |
| aelkner_ | changing code is one thing | 17:10 |
| aelkner_ | managing its deployment is another | 17:10 |
| aelkner_ | that's where i could be stuck with days of work | 17:11 |
| aelkner_ | there are two cando deployments and on jelkner-gradebook | 17:11 |
| aelkner_ | and i'm hoping to avoid getting involved with them right now | 17:11 |
| aelkner_ | anyway, i'm going to remove the menu items and tests and move on from this | 17:12 |
| aelkner_ | or actually, and you will laugh at me, i could do nothing | 17:14 |
| aelkner_ | and just instruct jelkner not to use the menu items | 17:14 |
| aelkner_ | which he can easily avoid | 17:14 |
| aelkner_ | then, when i have the chance, i could do the layer thing | 17:14 |
| ignas | :) | 17:15 |
| ignas | that's kind of the point of the excercise - you have way more information about the task than I do ;) | 17:15 |
| ignas | *exercise | 17:15 |
| aelkner_ | that i do | 17:16 |
| aelkner_ | thanks for you input | 17:16 |
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| th1a | ignas: Is there any reason your instructions wouldn't work as well on Debian as Ubuntu? | 17:41 |
| ignas | the only reason is - i haven't tried them on plain debian | 17:41 |
| ignas | though - i think they should work | 17:42 |
| ignas | th1a: by the way - what are the precise dates the hotel for PyCon is booked? | 17:42 |
| th1a | What precise dates do you need? | 17:43 |
| ignas | well - i want to know when I should land in Chickago and when I should fly back home | 17:46 |
| ignas | *Chicago | 17:46 |
| th1a | The current plan is arriving the 13th, leaving the 20th. | 17:46 |
| ignas | ok, so 13th morning, 20th evening | 17:47 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:47 |
| ignas | ok, thanks | 17:50 |
| th1a | ignas: Does this setup include reportlab and the ms fonts? | 19:00 |
| ignas | no, reportlab will be disabled i think | 19:01 |
| ignas | you still have to modify instance/schooltool.conf | 19:01 |
| th1a | To point to the fonts? | 19:03 |
| ignas | yes | 19:04 |
| th1a | Can't we have it point to the right place by default? | 19:04 |
| ignas | well - i think the default points to the right place, but is commented out | 19:05 |
| th1a | Would it be bad if it was not commented out and the fonts weren't installed? | 19:13 |
| mgedmin | can we hook up to fontconfig to discover where the fonts are? | 19:13 |
| th1a | I mean, going forward it isn't going to be something people would not use. | 19:14 |
| th1a | I guess the problem is you have to enable multiverse. | 19:14 |
| th1a | But ultimately, nobody wants a SIS that can't print reports. | 19:15 |
| th1a | So it probably makes more sense to say "step 1: enable multiverse" | 19:18 |
| ignas | it depends on whether we want instructions for developers or users though | 19:20 |
| th1a | True. | 19:21 |
| th1a | OK. Developers don't need to do it first. | 19:21 |
| * ignas is looking at the http checkout edition as one that is for people who suddenly want to fix a small bug in schooltool and send a patch | 19:21 | |
| ignas | although now I am not sure who we are targeting | 19:24 |
| ignas | we need something like a list of tasks users might want to accomplish | 19:24 |
| ignas | like "I want to fix this small bug" | 19:24 |
| th1a | We don't need to overthink this. | 19:24 |
| th1a | I'm just trying to write up what a developer should do and wandered off the use case. | 19:24 |
| ignas | yes, thats true | 19:24 |
| ignas | I just don't know what that developer will be doing with a readonly schooltool checkout | 19:26 |
| th1a | It is for the curious. | 19:26 |
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| th1a | ignas: Could you add bzr to "make ubuntu-environment"? | 19:47 |
| Lumiere | cando has that for feisty | 19:49 |
| Lumiere | updating it shouldn't be hard | 19:50 |
| th1a | It should be trivial. | 19:51 |
| th1a | Heck, I should be able to do it ;-) | 19:52 |
| ignas | th1a: emm - problem is that Makefile is IN the bzr checkout | 19:56 |
| Lumiere | ignas: so they need bzr | 19:59 |
| Lumiere | bzr co schooltool-buildout && make ubuntu-environment | 20:00 |
| Lumiere | or if you want to be insane sudo apt-get install bzr && bzrco && sudo make ubuntu-environment | 20:00 |
| ignas | yes, that's the idea | 20:01 |
| ignas | so what is the point of adding bzr to make ubuntu-environment | 20:01 |
| ignas | if you have to "apt-get install bzr" before that | 20:01 |
| Lumiere | yea | 20:01 |
| Lumiere | the other choice is to write a script | 20:01 |
| Lumiere | that they download | 20:02 |
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| th1a | ignas: For the instructions you gave me I needed subversion first, not bzr. | 20:02 |
| th1a | I mean, it is a little thing. | 20:03 |
| ignas | these are 2 different sets for instructions | 20:03 |
| ignas | of | 20:03 |
| ignas | instructions | 20:03 |
| ignas | they do not follow each other | 20:03 |
| ignas | one is for schooltool2007 | 20:03 |
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| ignas | the other one is for schooltool2008spring | 20:04 |
| ignas | you get 2 different schooltool isntances | 20:04 |
| th1a | All I'm saying is that the makefile checks for subversion, so it might as well check for bzr too. | 20:05 |
| th1a | It's three letters. | 20:05 |
| ignas | ok, just that - it's something that person working with schooltool2007 will not need... i mean - if there is no bzr - everything still works | 20:06 |
| ignas | commited the change | 20:07 |
| th1a | Thanks. | 20:07 |
| th1a | Three letters out of the HOWTO, three letters into the Makefile. | 20:08 |
| th1a | Whee! | 20:08 |
| ignas | ? | 20:08 |
| ignas | how can that be? | 20:08 |
| Lumiere | th1a: you cannot remove it | 20:08 |
| Lumiere | from the howto | 20:08 |
| ignas | that's my point | 20:08 |
| Lumiere | people need to know | 20:08 |
| Lumiere | that you need bzr | 20:09 |
| Lumiere | to *DOWNLOAD* the makefile that installs bzr | 20:09 |
| ignas | if you only need schooltool2008 - you still have to install bzr first | 20:09 |
| ignas | and if you only need schooltool2007 - you don't need bzr | 20:09 |
| ignas | assuming that the curious will install 2007 first, and only then install 2008 | 20:09 |
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| ignas | is not a good idea ;) | 20:09 |
| Lumiere | assume -> ass u me | 20:09 |
| th1a | Sometimes I think I should be a more hands on manager, and then conversations like this make me think it is a good idea to just leave you alone. | 20:10 |
| ignas | actually - the svn dependency is in there because if you manage to get schooltool-buildout from somewhere else (like download a tarball) | 20:11 |
| ignas | you need svn because make file is checking out schooltool trunk | 20:11 |
| th1a | Oh, I see, you DO have two different sets of instructions, as you said you do ;-) | 20:11 |
| th1a | Oh, I see, you DO have two different sets of instructions, as you said you do ;-) | 20:12 |
| th1a | Agh. | 20:12 |
| th1a | OK, so really, I can just get rid of one of these. | 20:12 |
| th1a | I don't really need 2007. | 20:13 |
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| ignas | i guess | 20:14 |
| th1a | OK. | 20:14 |
| * ignas just does not know what do these curious people need to satisfy their curiosity | 20:14 | |
| th1a | Actually, this saves me 10 letters from the HOWTO, since I don't need to tell you to apt-get subversion first. | 20:15 |
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| th1a | ignas: One design goal for the developers HOWTO is to make it look simple. | 20:24 |
| th1a | So even if one has no intention of trying it, it looks good. | 20:24 |
| ignas | if only it was actually simple... | 20:25 |
| th1a | Also, giving someone choices at this point is a bad idea. | 20:25 |
| th1a | You've done a lot of work to make it simpler on the outside. | 20:25 |
| th1a | This HOWTO is a lot shorter than the last version. | 20:25 |
| ignas | it's still complex if the person will want to make some changes or fix a bug in schooltool though | 20:26 |
| th1a | Sure. | 20:26 |
| th1a | Getting it running is an important first step in that process ;-) | 20:26 |
| ignas | true | 20:27 |
| ignas | :) | 20:27 |
| th1a | The first thing someone is going to do is look at the instructions, and if they just look too hard: Game Over! | 20:28 |
| ignas | yes ;) let's lure them into the cave and *then* hit them with the stick :) | 20:32 |
| th1a | It is much more effective than chasing them in the sunlight. | 20:34 |
| Lumiere | ignas: bzr diff = win | 20:38 |
| ignas | Lumiere: ? | 20:38 |
| Lumiere | if they want to send us a diff | 20:38 |
| Lumiere | bzr and svn give utilities for that | 20:38 |
| ignas | Lumiere: if only it was that easy | 20:39 |
| ignas | Lumiere: don't forget that stapp2008spring, schooltool and schooltool.lyceum.journal are 3 different things | 20:39 |
| Lumiere | yes | 20:39 |
| Lumiere | that's the pain | 20:40 |
| ignas | Lumiere: the stapp2008 only includes well - itself | 20:40 |
| ignas | so if someone wants to fix journal - he has to make a development checkout of journal, and if he wants to fix schooltool - he needs a development checkout of schooltool | 20:40 |
| ignas | and only we know which one he'd like to fix ;) | 20:40 |
| Lumiere | ignas: lol | 20:50 |
| * ignas goes to investigate simple ways to add schooltool and schooltool.lyceum.journal checkouts to the stapp2008spring buildout | 20:51 | |
| th1a | ignas: I'm getting an error fetching ClientForm. This URL looks suspect: http://wwwsearch.sourceforge.net/ClientForm/src/ClientForm-0.2.7.zip | 20:57 |
| th1a | Then again, it works in my browser, so I guess it was just down. | 20:58 |
| th1a | Never mind. | 20:58 |
| ignas | just run make again, as this way of installing schooltool downloads everything from the net - connections sometimes time out | 20:58 |
| Lumiere | ignas: we should script an automatic retry | 21:00 |
| ignas | Lumiere: there is no reliable way to detect it on our side | 21:01 |
| Lumiere | ignas: return value of wget | 21:01 |
| ignas | maybe there is a buildout option | 21:01 |
| ignas | we don't run wget | 21:01 |
| Lumiere | oh | 21:01 |
| Lumiere | it's all done through python | 21:02 |
| Lumiere | <_< | 21:02 |
| ignas | buildout | 21:02 |
| ignas | distutils actually i think | 21:03 |
| Lumiere | ignas: I meant through something like python.urllib | 21:03 |
| ignas | yes, i think so, but it's not our code | 21:03 |
| Lumiere | ignas: but that code should throw an Error | 21:04 |
| Lumiere | which would be trivial to catch and retry on | 21:04 |
| ignas | we run buildout uisng a shell script | 21:04 |
| Lumiere | ignas: sounds like something to patch in z3.buildout | 21:05 |
| ignas | probably | 21:05 |
| ignas | maybe in distutils, don't really know the code | 21:05 |
| th1a | The only reason I didn't immediately try it again is that it looked like there might be a missing period after "www" | 21:06 |
| Lumiere | th1a: yea | 21:06 |
| th1a | Hm... what tests does "make testall" actually run? | 21:16 |
| ignas | in this case - pretty much none of them ;) | 21:18 |
| ignas | these are tests for our upcoming release | 21:18 |
| ignas | and there aren't any at the moment | 21:18 |
| th1a | Will it run the full test suite in the future? | 21:18 |
| ignas | hmm, i can add test-schooltool script | 21:19 |
| ignas | that would run tests for schooltool egg and for schooltool.lyceum.journal | 21:19 |
| th1a | That sounds more like what I'd expect "testall" to do ;-) | 21:20 |
| ignas | in theory - if it's an egg - it's not broken | 21:21 |
| th1a | In theory, everything works! | 21:22 |
| ignas | going home now | 21:23 |
| ignas | see you | 21:23 |
| ignas | ;) | 21:23 |
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