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| ACSpike | good morning. | 14:58 |
|---|---|---|
| ignas | hi | 14:58 |
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| ACSpike | hi ignas, how goes it? | 15:12 |
| ACSpike | this week is the last week of the semester. I'm going to try to make it a personal goal for the summer to learn how to dev on schooltool | 15:13 |
| ignas | not bad, got gradebook for teachers working | 15:13 |
| ACSpike | super | 15:13 |
| ignas | need some cleanup to check it in | 15:14 |
| ACSpike | of course we've got a lot of projects going for the summer too, like deploying wireless across the campus | 15:14 |
| ACSpike | ignas you've got a lot of work to do, right? | 15:14 |
| ignas | yes | 15:15 |
| ACSpike | would there be enough payoff for you to tell me what to do and how to do it? or is it mostly mental work rather than grunt work? | 15:15 |
| ignas | hmm, gruntwork is too boring for most volunteers (functional tests, bug tracker) ... | 15:17 |
| ignas | but if you want to, there are a lot of things that should be done in that respect | 15:18 |
| ignas | UI needs a lot of improvement | 15:18 |
| ACSpike | certainly boring | 15:18 |
| ignas | which means going view by view | 15:18 |
| ignas | and looking if all the urls make sense | 15:18 |
| ACSpike | but I dont' have an immediate use for schooltool myself | 15:18 |
| ignas | which should be hidden | 15:18 |
| ignas | and simmilar ... | 15:18 |
| ACSpike | really hard to learn things with only "that will help me someday" motivation | 15:19 |
| ACSpike | so I think I could force myself to sit down and do some boring stuff | 15:19 |
| ACSpike | especially if I could tell myself I'm training time for education | 15:19 |
| ignas | well, training has to have a purpose ... | 15:20 |
| ignas | what do you want to do with schooltool in the future | 15:20 |
| ignas | because functional tests will only help you to know what is broken, and what should get fixed, not how to do it ... | 15:20 |
| ACSpike | 1) I want to learn about zope 2) because of my job there are a reasonable number of people asking me about open source SISes right now I have nothing to tell them | 15:22 |
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| ignas | with the 1, i can only suggest reading schooltool checkin mailing list, asking questions, and doing something yourself | 15:23 |
| ignas | i can't help you learn if i can't see your code ;) so you must do something | 15:24 |
| ignas | as for the second part, what questions are they asking? | 15:24 |
| ACSpike | if it exists. what to use. | 15:25 |
| ignas | hmm | 15:25 |
| ignas | there is SchoolTool, but it is not usable yet | 15:25 |
| ignas | and there is another one | 15:25 |
| * ignas only found out recently | 15:25 | |
| ACSpike | as I was saying the problem with 1 is that I don't have an immediate need. I don't have someone in a school saying "wee need this in schooltool" | 15:25 |
| ignas | wait a sec | 15:25 |
| ACSpike | I cannot recommend focus-sis | 15:25 |
| ignas | ACSpike: you should do something you need | 15:25 |
| ignas | not SIS | 15:25 |
| ignas | but something webby | 15:26 |
| ACSpike | oh | 15:26 |
| ignas | ACSpike: http://demo.miller-group.net/index.php | 15:27 |
| ignas | look at this one | 15:27 |
| ignas | find out what it does, and what it doesn't | 15:27 |
| ACSpike | focus-sis was forked from that | 15:27 |
| ignas | then tell us about it ;) | 15:27 |
| ACSpike | centre | 15:27 |
| ignas | http://www.miller-group.net/content/view/38/47/ | 15:27 |
| ignas | focus-sis ? | 15:27 |
| ignas | what is it? | 15:27 |
| ignas | http://www.focus-sis.org/ ? | 15:28 |
| ignas | hmm | 15:28 |
| ACSpike | I think one school I talk with is going to use focus-sis soonish. I'll probably write a hot lunch module for it. | 15:28 |
| ACSpike | but I don't like the code | 15:28 |
| ACSpike | centre was originally developed by a high school student and somehow he got into some commercial deal with the miller group | 15:29 |
| ACSpike | there was bad blood and he forked it | 15:29 |
| ACSpike | anyway, I probably will get some exposure to that codebase over the next year | 15:31 |
| ACSpike | so then I will be able to tell you about it | 15:31 |
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| ACSpike | fyi there are a few other smaller and less capable efforts too. I went through them a year or so ago. slim pickins | 15:32 |
| * ignas is interested in those who are ahead us ;) | 15:36 | |
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| ACSpike | would probably be good to dissect the functionality of those who claim that they are being used in schools | 15:41 |
| ACSpike | I have access to some people using powerschool too | 15:42 |
| ACSpike | I think they are probably the real competition | 15:42 |
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| ignas | ACSpike: if you could get screenshots, manuals, information about integration capabilities etc about powerschool | 15:48 |
| ignas | i would be very interested | 15:49 |
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| ACSpike | I'll see what I can do | 15:52 |
| ACSpike | ignas: wrt grunt work, dream up a specific small task for me. | 15:57 |
| ignas | how small ? ;) | 15:57 |
| ignas | in hours/days/weeks ? ;) | 15:58 |
| ACSpike | 2-3 evening after kiddie bedtime hacking sessions | 15:58 |
| ACSpike | so probably hours | 15:58 |
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| ignas | ACSpike: https://bugs.launchpad.net/schooltool/+bug/80092 | 16:06 |
| ignas | perform the testcase | 16:06 |
| ignas | if everything is fine, comment on the bug | 16:06 |
| ignas | the testcase is describet by Tom Hoffman | 16:07 |
| ACSpike | perfect | 16:09 |
| ignas | https://bugs.launchpad.net/schooltool/+bug/79824 - is a UI issue, you might try finding a way to display multi day events better | 16:09 |
| ignas | and either submit a patch to the template | 16:09 |
| ignas | or an html mockup that shows dates on the event and let me fix the code | 16:09 |
| ACSpike | I disagree with the premise of the second bug | 16:09 |
| ignas | premise? | 16:10 |
| ACSpike | I don't think it should be forbidden if it can't be done through the ui | 16:10 |
| ignas | this part is fixed | 16:10 |
| ignas | the problem is - if event spans 2 days (23:00-2:00) | 16:10 |
| ignas | you can's see dates in the event title | 16:10 |
| ignas | so you don't know how long the event spans | 16:11 |
| ACSpike | oh, right, I didnt' get that far down :-) | 16:11 |
| ACSpike | ok | 16:11 |
| ignas | so you should play around with long events and see if you can think of a way to improve the UI | 16:11 |
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| Lumiere | 'morning wjohnsto | 16:16 |
| ACSpike | ignas: yeah, I'll look. don't know if that is my expertise. | 16:20 |
| ACSpike | ignas: thanks! | 16:20 |
| Lumiere | ignas: I haven't had time lately to look over permissions on resources | 16:21 |
| Lumiere | I'll get back to it in the next week or two | 16:21 |
| wjohnsto | hello Lumiere | 16:22 |
| ACSpike | ignas: heh, the my calendar has the same kind of problem :-) month -> https://portal.mlc-wels.edu/nwpp/Information/calendar.php?m=6&y=2007 day -> https://portal.mlc-wels.edu/nwpp/Information/calendar.php?y=2007&m=06&d=06 | 16:23 |
| th1a | ignas: I have a bunch of stuff printed out from PowerSchool manuals. | 16:25 |
| th1a | I'll have to bring it to EuroPython. | 16:25 |
| th1a | Stephan and I spent some time chuckling over the Centre code. | 16:26 |
| th1a | It is pretty crude; I know some people who use it. | 16:26 |
| ACSpike | ugh | 16:27 |
| th1a | Another is OpenAdmin. I haven't looked at their code though. | 16:27 |
| ACSpike | yeah, I was looking through the focus-sis code again yesterday | 16:27 |
| ACSpike | ugh | 16:27 |
| Lumiere | Arlington uses eSchoolsPlus... | 16:29 |
| Lumiere | not that I can find a website for it | 16:29 |
| Lumiere | I think it was hand written for Fairfax County right next to us.... and we grabbed it | 16:31 |
| Lumiere | *pokes th1a* | 16:31 |
| * th1a shuffles some papers around. | 16:31 | |
| Lumiere | morning th1a | 16:32 |
| th1a | Hi jfroche_, jinty__, Lumiere, ACSpike, ignas... | 16:32 |
| ignas | hello | 16:32 |
| jfroche_ | good morning ! | 16:32 |
| ACSpike | hi! :-) | 16:33 |
| th1a | OK... reports. | 16:33 |
| th1a | I spend more time working on my new ZIS last week. It is at https://launchpad.net/wye | 16:34 |
| th1a | I still need to put in some time studying Paul's new gradebook stuff. | 16:34 |
| th1a | Those two things are my priorities for this week as well. | 16:34 |
| th1a | jfroche_: You're up. | 16:35 |
| jfroche_ | up yep | 16:35 |
| jfroche_ | got really busy last week | 16:35 |
| jfroche_ | i am still writting the whole description of the grade book in jacqmain | 16:36 |
| jfroche_ | describing the different usecases | 16:36 |
| jfroche_ | no code yet for that | 16:36 |
| * th1a is getting worried jfroche_ is busy with too many things other than SchoolTool. | 16:37 | |
| jfroche_ | i know, my fault. other things than schooltool will be reduced now | 16:38 |
| jfroche_ | time management got messed up by deadlines of two other projects | 16:38 |
| th1a | In the past mysterious periods of quiet by my developers have been followed by them taking other jobs without telling me or disappearing of the face of the earth. | 16:39 |
| th1a | jfroche_: Please don't do either of those. | 16:39 |
| jfroche_ | th1a: schooltool is a really important project for me and be sure i won't let if off like that | 16:40 |
| jfroche_ | i will be sending my grade book report this week on the dev mailing list | 16:41 |
| th1a | OK. I'm looking forward to it. | 16:41 |
| th1a | jfroche_: Have you talked to Nicolas lately? | 16:41 |
| th1a | Should I send him an email? | 16:41 |
| jfroche_ | no news | 16:42 |
| jfroche_ | maybe | 16:42 |
| jfroche_ | he could help me to review the grade book analysis | 16:42 |
| th1a | OK. I'll ping him. | 16:42 |
| th1a | jfroche_: Anything else? | 16:43 |
| jfroche_ | after the grade book i would like to know if some stories shouldn't be implemented | 16:44 |
| jfroche_ | if they complexify too much the garde book | 16:44 |
| jfroche_ | and would like to know if other working on their grade book have the same stories | 16:44 |
| th1a | I'm sure we can work that out. | 16:45 |
| th1a | Thanks jfroche_. | 16:46 |
| th1a | ignas? | 16:46 |
| ignas | th1a: got a working prototype of gradebook for teachers | 16:47 |
| ignas | with a link for every lesson that leads to the gradebook | 16:47 |
| ignas | in which you can put grades for students in the section | 16:47 |
| ignas | with sorting by surname and grouping by grade if needed (for multi grade sections) | 16:47 |
| ignas | and basic history of grades (write only at the moment) | 16:48 |
| ignas | so if you write 9, and then change it to 8 | 16:48 |
| ignas | the system remembers that | 16:48 |
| ignas | only need to clean up the code, and test some corners | 16:49 |
| ignas | that's kind of everything i did this week | 16:49 |
| th1a | I'm looking forward to seeing it. | 16:50 |
| th1a | The mysterious Lithuanian grade book ;-) | 16:50 |
| ignas | it looks crude, but helped me solve a couple of UI issues already ... | 16:50 |
| ignas | apparently you can't fit grades for the whole semester in one page | 16:51 |
| th1a | 1 grade per day, no. | 16:51 |
| ignas | with 5 lessons a week it got kind of huge | 16:52 |
| th1a | Where are exams, etc. recorded? | 16:52 |
| ignas | so now i have it paged by month | 16:52 |
| ignas | no exams yet, just grades and attendance | 16:52 |
| ignas | starting small ;) | 16:52 |
| ignas | next - gradebook views for students | 16:53 |
| th1a | I mean, how should they work. Is it a different book? | 16:53 |
| th1a | Different columns? | 16:53 |
| ignas | they don't really belong to the journal | 16:53 |
| th1a | OH. | 16:53 |
| th1a | A lightbulb goes off above th1a's head. | 16:54 |
| * Lumiere draws a stick figure version for reference | 16:54 | |
| ignas | http://ignas.pov.lt/gradebook.png ;) | 16:55 |
| th1a | So is there also a gradebook for exams that is more like and American grade book? | 16:55 |
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| Lumiere | ignas: so, your journal is more like an attendence module that also accepts a daily grade? | 16:56 |
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| th1a | This also helps explain why calendaring was done first in SchoolTool. | 16:56 |
| ignas | http://ignas.pov.lt/gradebook2.png - a day selected for data entry | 16:56 |
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| th1a | Since you can't even do a gradebook without knowing something about the calendar. | 16:56 |
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| ignas | Lumiere: yes it is more like attendance | 16:57 |
| Lumiere | so, could your exam gradebook | 16:57 |
| Lumiere | share code with pcardune's? | 16:58 |
| th1a | One would think they would be more similar. | 16:58 |
| ignas | Lumiere: in lithuania every student personally select what exams and of what kind he is going to have, there are 2 sets of exams 0th grade and 12th grade only | 16:58 |
| Lumiere | yea | 16:58 |
| ignas | so there are 2 sets of 5-10 marks | 16:58 |
| ignas | that are varyiing year to year, person to person even :/ | 16:59 |
| ignas | so it is quite different thing from any normal gradebook | 16:59 |
| th1a | So what is on your report card? | 16:59 |
| ignas | report card? the one you get when you finish the school? | 17:00 |
| Lumiere | or the one when you finish the grade | 17:00 |
| ignas | you don't have exams when you finish the grade (most of the time) | 17:00 |
| ignas | unless school has special internal rules | 17:00 |
| th1a | If I had been sent to visit a Lithuanian school the day after Mark hired me, that might have prevented years of confusion. | 17:01 |
| ignas | if it's special rules, then it is quite specific anyway, like - only having exams if your grades are bad etc. | 17:01 |
| ignas | th1a: if we worked on US school because you had more experience with them, it would have saved us years of confusion too | 17:01 |
| Lumiere | lol | 17:02 |
| th1a | The thing is that it is hard to explain the differences without knowing what your expectations are. | 17:03 |
| th1a | And schooling in particular is difficult because you literally grew up in the system, it just seems natural to you. | 17:03 |
| ignas | yes, schools are different, that's why I have discarded the original schooltool gradebook and wrote a new one | 17:04 |
| ignas | because ours is just different ;) | 17:04 |
| th1a | Also, I took over after SchoolTool was started, and I couldn't figure out why you guys had started writing it the way you had and why it made no sense to me. | 17:05 |
| ignas | well - i can't understand that part either | 17:05 |
| th1a | We could have gone through both of our educational systems explaining them as if to Martians. | 17:05 |
| th1a | Realistically, if I'm ever starting something like this again, I'll have both sides visit each other's schools. | 17:06 |
| th1a | ANYHOW... anything else, ignas. | 17:06 |
| ignas | nope | 17:06 |
| th1a | OK. Thanks. | 17:06 |
| th1a | Lumiere? | 17:06 |
| Lumiere | so | 17:09 |
| Lumiere | (sorry) | 17:09 |
| Lumiere | pcardune spent the week finishing up the timeclock app for our interns | 17:09 |
| Lumiere | and doing some gradebook stuff | 17:10 |
| Lumiere | on the packaging stuff | 17:10 |
| Lumiere | CanDo really needs easy to use ubuntu packages for distribution | 17:10 |
| th1a | You mean as opposed to eggs? | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | well | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | eggs may work... | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | but I am afraid of the upgrade path on eggs | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | it's rather unfortunate that (ed)ubuntu doesn't follow a standard academic calendar | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | I really don't think there are any schools that start in mid october | 17:12 |
| th1a | I guess the big question is whether or not having a deb that will work with Feisty is feasible. | 17:12 |
| Lumiere | yea | 17:12 |
| th1a | jinty__: ayt? | 17:12 |
| Lumiere | I have a feeling that we're stuck with packaging the way we did for 06 | 17:12 |
| Lumiere | not that I like it | 17:13 |
| th1a | A big .deb blob? | 17:13 |
| Lumiere | yea | 17:13 |
| th1a | (not literally a BLOB) | 17:13 |
| Lumiere | cando-06 is a massive ugly zope3 included thing | 17:13 |
| th1a | Is upgrading that less scary than eggs? | 17:13 |
| Lumiere | yes | 17:14 |
| Lumiere | because upgrading the package | 17:14 |
| Lumiere | upgrades everything in it | 17:14 |
| th1a | If you guys make a new package. | 17:14 |
| Lumiere | it includes any upgrade | 17:14 |
| Lumiere | of any of the zope3 svn/eggs that were made | 17:15 |
| Lumiere | it works fine... it just is absolutely outside the way that debian/ubuntu will let into the distro | 17:16 |
| Lumiere | and getting packaged in a sane way for ubuntu was a goal for at least me this year | 17:16 |
| th1a | So practically speaking, none of this makes a significant difference. Aesthetically, some approaches are uglier. | 17:16 |
| Lumiere | yes | 17:16 |
| Lumiere | I just don't understand eggs that well | 17:16 |
| Lumiere | so I am not as comfortable running it | 17:16 |
| th1a | Well, getting CanDo into Gutsy, or Gutsy+1 shouldn't be a problem. | 17:17 |
| ignas | Lumiere: you don't need to understand, just install ;) | 17:17 |
| Lumiere | ignas: as a system admin | 17:17 |
| Lumiere | I want to know wtf is going on | 17:17 |
| th1a | This is why th1a is a lousy sys admin. | 17:17 |
| th1a | I'm happy to charge ahead into the void. | 17:18 |
| Lumiere | I don't need to know every line | 17:18 |
| Lumiere | but I want to have a clue | 17:18 |
| th1a | Lumiere: OK. I guess that's settled. | 17:18 |
| Lumiere | k | 17:18 |
| Lumiere | the upgrade path | 17:18 |
| Lumiere | that is hard | 17:19 |
| Lumiere | is feisty->gutsy | 17:19 |
| th1a | Well, it would be hard to make it graceful, but I would think easy to make it doable. | 17:20 |
| Lumiere | yea | 17:20 |
| Lumiere | it's just something I worry about | 17:20 |
| Lumiere | because I know jelkner | 17:20 |
| th1a | Since the feisty packages are internal, it shouldn't be too hard. | 17:20 |
| Lumiere | he WILL do it | 17:20 |
| Lumiere | yea | 17:20 |
| Lumiere | if there were a truely bleeding edge ubuntu | 17:21 |
| Lumiere | jelkner would be on it <_< | 17:21 |
| th1a | dwelsh and I got each other worked up partly over the definition of "release." | 17:21 |
| Lumiere | yea | 17:21 |
| Lumiere | dwelsh doesn't really worry about release outside va | 17:21 |
| Lumiere | the only thing he cares about is getting the local release out | 17:21 |
| th1a | Right. And my perspective is the opposite. | 17:21 |
| Lumiere | and mine is to balance the 2 | 17:22 |
| th1a | I think everything is fine, though. | 17:22 |
| Lumiere | yes | 17:22 |
| th1a | Anything else before we wrap up? | 17:22 |
| ignas | has everyone tried out buildout? | 17:22 |
| Lumiere | it worked for me pretty much | 17:22 |
| Lumiere | I need to beat on it some more | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | preferably on a system that doesn't suck | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | also | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | it would be nice | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | if it either fixed it self | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | or failed gracefully | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | if a download failed | 17:23 |
| th1a | I was able to build it. I think I had to change the Makefile to specify python2.4 | 17:23 |
| ignas | Lumiere: which download? | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | random eggs | 17:24 |
| Lumiere | there is a wierd ass problem with ACC's firewall | 17:24 |
| ignas | oh | 17:24 |
| Lumiere | that just deadlocks downloads occasionally | 17:24 |
| Lumiere | happens all the time with our apt updates too | 17:24 |
| Lumiere | the only thing I can do is kill it | 17:24 |
| ignas | hmm, i am afraid you must perform cleanup manually - ./clean.sh | 17:24 |
| Lumiere | but... with apt it at least starts from where it left off and restarts that download | 17:24 |
| Lumiere | can you add a readme | 17:24 |
| Lumiere | that talks through that | 17:25 |
| Lumiere | :) | 17:25 |
| ignas | maybe ;) | 17:25 |
| th1a | ignas accepts bribes in Lita or Euros. | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | rofl | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | how about in drinks when he is in arlington? | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | ;) | 17:26 |
| th1a | We have to get him there. | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | I thought that was going | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | OH! | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | th1a: pcardune got the tickets | 17:26 |
| th1a | I think he is. | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | for europython | 17:27 |
| th1a | That is good. | 17:27 |
| *** ACSpike has left #schooltool | 17:27 | |
| th1a | That ended up costing me an arm and a leg. | 17:27 |
| th1a | pcardune is worth it, though. | 17:27 |
| Lumiere | yea | 17:27 |
| th1a | Any last words? | 17:27 |
| Lumiere | he's one of the most impressive programmers | 17:28 |
| Lumiere | I have ever seen | 17:28 |
| th1a | This is moving along: http://files.esd189.org/~ehall/SIFA/Stupski_SIF_Toolkit_Proposal_draft.pdf | 17:28 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 17:29 | |
| th1a | Have a good week, folks! | 17:29 |
| Lumiere | nice | 17:29 |
| th1a | Looking forward to gradebooky goodness. | 17:29 |
| Lumiere | pcardune's last exam is tuesday | 17:30 |
| Lumiere | so... he'll be on it from then probably | 17:30 |
| th1a | Excellent. | 17:31 |
| Lumiere | off to get ready for pain and suffering... aka | 17:35 |
| Lumiere | work | 17:35 |
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