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| Lumiere | morning everyone | 16:09 |
|---|---|---|
| *** th1a has joined #schooltool | 16:11 | |
| CrippsFX | good morning Lumiere | 16:14 |
| ignas | hi | 16:15 |
| Lumiere | did I mention it's too early in the morning to actually be awake? | 16:15 |
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| * th1a is reading the backlog from Friday. | 16:27 | |
| ignas | th1a: by the way, could we talk about your vision of schooltool some time? | 16:30 |
| ignas | th1a: because i really don't know what do you expect schooltool to be in the future | 16:30 |
| th1a | ignas: Perhaps that is a good idea. | 16:30 |
| th1a | I was away on a baseball trip this weekend, so I'm catching up. | 16:30 |
| th1a | ignas: What aspect of my vision of SchoolTool are you unclear about? | 16:31 |
| ignas | well - all of it ;) | 16:31 |
| ignas | there are ideas, features | 16:31 |
| ignas | but i would like to hear the whole story in one place | 16:31 |
| ignas | what do you expect schooltool to become in a year, two years or more ... | 16:32 |
| ignas | i know the technical direction of the project, i know what i want schooltool to have so it would be a usable *application* | 16:33 |
| jfroche | good afternoon | 16:33 |
| ignas | jfroche: hi | 16:33 |
| th1a | Hi jfroche. | 16:33 |
| th1a | ignas: You want to know what we want as a framework or platform? | 16:34 |
| ignas | th1a: but i would like to know what do you think about schooltool | 16:34 |
| th1a | Well, there is huge demand for a good free student information system. | 16:35 |
| ignas | th1a: i want to know what do you expect schooltool to do or to be in the future | 16:35 |
| th1a | That is adaptable or extensible to different countries. | 16:35 |
| th1a | So on one hand you've got the case of individual schools that would like something free, | 16:36 |
| th1a | but it seems like the more important case is countries/regions, etc. looking for something that can be used throughout many schools. | 16:36 |
| jfroche | with a z3 developper next to them ? | 16:38 |
| th1a | Well, that's the thing. If you're talking about a larger scale/several schools, having a z3 developer handy is more plausible. | 16:38 |
| th1a | Of course, we'd love for that not to be necessary. | 16:38 |
| ignas | hmm | 16:39 |
| th1a | And I hope eventually we'll have a package like Moodle that a school can just download and run. | 16:39 |
| th1a | That's *really* what we want. | 16:39 |
| ignas | so emm - 2 goals? | 16:39 |
| Lumiere | I'd add that even if there were 2-3 packages that worked for say... sets of countries | 16:39 |
| ignas | because i know how to do the moodle thingie ;) | 16:39 |
| ignas | but not the mulitple schools 1 server room with some kind of admin in it thingie ;) | 16:40 |
| th1a | It is probably impossible to have one package that would work anywhere in the world. | 16:40 |
| th1a | With no programming. | 16:40 |
| ignas | i mean - i can try pulling it towards "packaged schooltool" with easily installable plugins | 16:40 |
| ignas | that make schooltool work for your school | 16:41 |
| ignas | which is my long term idea | 16:41 |
| th1a | OK... I think I see what you're asking. | 16:41 |
| th1a | Let me make clear that the goal right now is to have SchoolTool doing attendance, gradebook, calendaring, demographics, reporting, SOMEWHERE in the world this fall. | 16:42 |
| ignas | just that i want to know what your long term idea is so that we would have more or less 1 direction | 16:42 |
| ignas | yes, that's the short term | 16:42 |
| th1a | Then, we take what we've got and package it up in the most generally usable form we can. | 16:43 |
| ignas | and ? | 16:43 |
| th1a | Perhaps we have several separate gradebook packages. Perhaps we just include the "american" gradebook and the "lithuanian" one can be used if necessary. | 16:43 |
| ignas | btw - packaging will be done before that iirc | 16:43 |
| th1a | Well, yes, but I'd say the gutsy packages will still be pretty rough. | 16:44 |
| ignas | as for the packaging model - as i have mentioned i would like to go for independent plugins | 16:44 |
| ignas | you install schooltool | 16:44 |
| ignas | install schooltool-lyceum-gradebook | 16:44 |
| ignas | and it kind of works ;) | 16:44 |
| th1a | Gutsy + 1 packages should be actually usable for schools that fit some model. | 16:44 |
| th1a | ignas: Yes, I would like to have that. | 16:45 |
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| erchache | hi | 16:45 |
| th1a | I mean, I'm not pushing a lot of stuff like modular packages, because I don't want to spend the next three months on architecture. | 16:45 |
| th1a | erchache: hi. | 16:45 |
| ignas | but still, i can't see your long term vision | 16:45 |
| erchache | when arrive to sevilla? | 16:45 |
| erchache | th1a | 16:46 |
| th1a | erchache: Wednesday afternoon. | 16:46 |
| erchache | uhmmm are on dev meet? | 16:46 |
| th1a | erchache: Yes. | 16:46 |
| erchache | well we can speak later :-D | 16:46 |
| ignas | because jumping from schooltool.deb to schooltool for a region is not something that can be done without preparation, having schooltool modular is something that i'd rather implement gradually | 16:46 |
| ignas | rather than do in one jump | 16:46 |
| ignas | as i know what i want - i can slowly push everything in that direction | 16:47 |
| ignas | eggs, database plugins, more eggs, configuration screens, export plugins etc. | 16:47 |
| ignas | if i won't know what your plans are, i won't be able to prepare for them ... | 16:48 |
| th1a | ignas: OK. So yes, ideally, this is all very modular, so eventually an administrator will be able to mix and match from a whole set of packaged components. | 16:48 |
| th1a | But even then there should be a meta-package that the average person uses to get a standard version of ST running. | 16:50 |
| Lumiere | I am thinking there may be 2 | 16:50 |
| ignas | th1a: with eggs and dependencies - meta package will be easy | 16:51 |
| Lumiere | yea | 16:51 |
| Lumiere | there will be a couple meta packages I am thinking | 16:51 |
| ignas | th1a: schooltool-standard-ui depends on all the standard ZODB based components, and UI modules | 16:51 |
| ignas | th1a: and you get a running school | 16:51 |
| ignas | one of my concerns was | 16:51 |
| Lumiere | ignas: that'd be schooltool-common? | 16:51 |
| ignas | maybe | 16:52 |
| ignas | maybe not | 16:52 |
| ignas | one of my concerns was that we have some requirements that are not expressed ... | 16:52 |
| th1a | In theory, schooltool-common lets you add people, and not much more than that. | 16:52 |
| Lumiere | ah | 16:52 |
| ignas | like - how easy should it be to install schooltool | 16:52 |
| Lumiere | it may be good to sit down sometime in the next month | 16:53 |
| th1a | On Ubuntu, apt-get. | 16:53 |
| ignas | who will be users installing and managing schooltool instances | 16:53 |
| Lumiere | and write down a bunch of these user stories | 16:53 |
| Lumiere | not to be implemented immediately | 16:53 |
| ignas | th1a: and then what? have you tried installing apache? | 16:53 |
| Lumiere | but to have them available | 16:53 |
| th1a | I hate configuring Apache. | 16:54 |
| ignas | teachers are not admins, and don't really know much about database management, configuration management ... | 16:54 |
| Lumiere | I love configuring apache | 16:54 |
| ignas | if we are targeting teachers - it's one set | 16:54 |
| Lumiere | but I'm a glutton for punishment | 16:54 |
| ignas | if admins - another set | 16:54 |
| Lumiere | ignas: installation has to be targetted at an admin/IT person | 16:54 |
| Lumiere | so does configuration | 16:55 |
| ignas | the need for apt-get install (because easy_install schooltool would be too difficult) kind of contradicts that | 16:55 |
| Lumiere | I disagree, it should have the questions that are needed for sane working of the systems in the deb packages | 16:55 |
| th1a | SchoolTool has to be in Edubuntu. | 16:56 |
| th1a | That's one hard requirement. | 16:56 |
| ignas | just that i think we are releasing software for users, not for distributions | 16:57 |
| ignas | i would like to know who are these users? | 16:57 |
| ignas | teachers, IT staff, experienced debian admins | 16:57 |
| ignas | CS teacher with a bit of linux experience | 16:57 |
| th1a | Reasonably, IT staff is maintaining the server, teachers are the users. | 16:57 |
| ignas | so Lumiere | 16:58 |
| ignas | ;) | 16:58 |
| ignas | and not th1a | 16:58 |
| Lumiere | lol... I would be maintaining the server | 16:58 |
| Lumiere | th1a would be using it | 16:58 |
| th1a | Ideally. | 16:58 |
| Lumiere | once packaged | 16:59 |
| Lumiere | there will need to be some warnings to people | 16:59 |
| th1a | I would say that it is VERY important that th1a can apt-get schooltool and it does SOMETHING out of the box. | 16:59 |
| ignas | oh | 16:59 |
| Lumiere | especially in the United States | 16:59 |
| Lumiere | about data security | 16:59 |
| ignas | th1a: i just wanted that written ;) | 16:59 |
| * Lumiere presses a buzzer to remind people that we're talking UES this morning | 17:00 | |
| ignas | because not having VERY important user requirements expressed, makes my work a bit uncertain | 17:00 |
| th1a | ignas: Sure. | 17:00 |
| ignas | th1a: which is why i wanted to hear what do you want schooltool to do | 17:01 |
| ignas | but ok | 17:01 |
| ignas | UES | 17:01 |
| th1a | I'm not complaining ;-) | 17:01 |
| ignas | now | 17:01 |
| ignas | vision - later | 17:01 |
| th1a | Is jinty here? | 17:01 |
| jinty | th1a: yep | 17:01 |
| th1a | OK, so do we have specific packaging issues that we want to stress to the Edubuntu guys. | 17:02 |
| th1a | Specific packages that will need to be created? | 17:02 |
| jinty | well, our entire dependency tree needs to be packages | 17:03 |
| th1a | There are also a bunch of z3 dependencies which aren't that stable, right? | 17:03 |
| jinty | yes | 17:03 |
| jinty | lots, | 17:04 |
| th1a | So every little thing like zc.table needs to be made into a .deb. | 17:04 |
| jinty | yep, basically | 17:04 |
| th1a | Are those going to be hard to make, or just tedious? | 17:04 |
| ignas | 117 eggs we depend on | 17:04 |
| th1a | I mean, are they all essentially the same from a packaging point of view? | 17:04 |
| jinty | it's my opinion that if a programmer can't write stable software, we shouldn't depend on it | 17:04 |
| jinty | yes, more or less | 17:05 |
| th1a | Well, I don't think that they aren't *stable* as much as new. | 17:05 |
| CrippsFX | th1a: just tedious ;) | 17:05 |
| jinty | I've even got a few scripts that can automate things even more | 17:05 |
| Lumiere | jinty: how hard is it to make a deb from an egg? | 17:05 |
| jinty | like getting dependency information from the setup.yo | 17:06 |
| jinty | Lumiere, extremely easy for simple eggs | 17:06 |
| ignas | jinty: is it just me or things like pytz are already egg like in feisty? | 17:06 |
| jinty | s/yo/py/ | 17:06 |
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| jfroche | why can't we package a basic version of schooltool in a deb with eggs inside ? | 17:06 |
| Lumiere | jfroche: it can't be cleaned up easily | 17:06 |
| jinty | ignas: yep, pytz is even in dapper I think | 17:06 |
| jfroche | Lumiere: clean up ? if you remove schooltool you remove the eggs | 17:07 |
| jinty | jfroche, I'm pretty sure that ubuntu developers are not going to accept that | 17:07 |
| ignas | jinty: i can recall that when installing pytz >= 2007 , i didn't get any eggs downloaded, which means that egg dependencies were all set | 17:07 |
| Lumiere | yea | 17:07 |
| jfroche | ok | 17:07 |
| ignas | so there probably is a standard way to package an egg as a deb for python | 17:08 |
| jinty | ignas: yes, if you have the deb of pytz installed, it won't download the egg | 17:08 |
| Lumiere | if there is, please post it to the schooltool-dev lists | 17:08 |
| jinty | Lumiere, apt-get source python-tz | 17:08 |
| Lumiere | heh | 17:09 |
| Lumiere | guess i gotta go find a dapper box to check on | 17:09 |
| ignas | jinty: btw, how did your ZPKG cleanup go? anything i can do to help you make schooltool.egg? | 17:09 |
| jinty | Lumiere, try any deb based distribution released in the last few years | 17:10 |
| ignas | schooltool2006dev_r6885.tar.gz or something like that | 17:10 |
| Lumiere | let me add a deb-src actually *poof* | 17:10 |
| jinty | ignas: well, I guess we need ./setup.py sdist bdist_egg to create what we want | 17:10 |
| jinty | to release | 17:10 |
| Lumiere | can an egg install to a dir | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | or will it always go in site-packages? | 17:11 |
| ignas | Lumiere: yes, with some magic parameters | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | ah | 17:11 |
| jinty | so, dependencies are more or less done | 17:11 |
| ignas | PYTHONPATH=./eggs easy_install -zaxd ./eggs -s ./eggs -S ./eggs setuptools | 17:11 |
| ignas | PYTHONPATH=./eggs easy_install -zaxd ./eggs -s ./eggs -S ./eggs pytz | 17:11 |
| ignas | and so on | 17:11 |
| jinty | but we need to think about the contents of the tar.gz | 17:11 |
| ignas | will install the egg into ./eggs without executables | 17:12 |
| jinty | so what schooltool packages should be in there | 17:12 |
| ignas | jinty: the part i don't know much about is the /bin/ management with eggs | 17:12 |
| jinty | yeah | 17:12 |
| ignas | jinty: at the moment - we might try releasing all of them | 17:12 |
| ignas | and then remove some ... | 17:12 |
| jinty | I think we just punt the bin problem to the debian packages | 17:13 |
| jinty | they can install the bin scripts | 17:13 |
| jinty | unless people want to use the schooltool eggs outside of packages | 17:13 |
| ignas | would be a nice replacement for nightly builds | 17:14 |
| jinty | yes | 17:14 |
| ignas | and people would not have to follow 17 steps to set up svn schooltool | 17:14 |
| jinty | there is a scripts= option to distutils | 17:14 |
| jinty | but I'm not sure how it plays with eggs | 17:14 |
| jinty | th1a: which parts of schooltool do you think shouldn't be released? | 17:16 |
| th1a | In Gutsy? | 17:16 |
| jinty | in the next scholtool release | 17:16 |
| jinty | i.e. schoolbell? | 17:16 |
| th1a | Right. | 17:16 |
| th1a | No SchoolBell. | 17:16 |
| Lumiere | I am hoping that schoolbell won't exist | 17:16 |
| jinty | and more, perhaps. | 17:16 |
| th1a | There are some unmaintained corners like notes. | 17:16 |
| th1a | And commendations is really just a developer example. | 17:17 |
| jinty | can you and ignas come up with a list of exclusions? | 17:17 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:17 |
| th1a | I'm not sure how much Ignas has ripped out of the Lyceum branch. | 17:18 |
| ignas | we can safely disable - notes, commendations, gradebook, demographics(1-2 hours of work), requirements, levels, devmode (would disable sample data) | 17:19 |
| ignas | demographics only need work if we want sample data to work after that | 17:19 |
| ignas | without sample data - demographics is optional | 17:20 |
| Lumiere | do we really want sample data for a release? | 17:20 |
| th1a | Lumiere: I think that's ignas's point. | 17:20 |
| Lumiere | yea | 17:21 |
| Lumiere | +1 then | 17:21 |
| th1a | Hopefully we'll have a working gradebook for gutsy, though. | 17:21 |
| ignas | th1a: your requirment was "easily usable out of the box" | 17:21 |
| ignas | sample data is the only way to test schooltool easily | 17:21 |
| ignas | at the moment | 17:21 |
| Lumiere | gradebook should be a separate package in any case | 17:21 |
| ignas | Lumiere: not that easy | 17:21 |
| ignas | Lumiere: long term - yes, short term - if i will have time | 17:22 |
| th1a | Well, users don't expect to be able to generate sample data. | 17:22 |
| Lumiere | ok | 17:22 |
| ignas | that's true | 17:22 |
| Lumiere | not to mention there's no clean way to get sample data out of schooltool | 17:22 |
| Lumiere | without manually removing it all | 17:22 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 17:22 |
| th1a | I don't think it is necessary for a release. | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | so... if someone starts up, makes sample data and goes to look around | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | they then want to start USING it | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | and they're stuck with 30000 entries of sample data | 17:23 |
| Lumiere | that they have to remove | 17:23 |
| th1a | It could easily be more confusing than helpful to the average person. | 17:23 |
| ignas | ok :) | 17:23 |
| ignas | we could do some hallway testing about our demographics in europython | 17:24 |
| ignas | to see which they prefer | 17:24 |
| ignas | simple and small | 17:24 |
| ignas | or USA one | 17:24 |
| ignas | or something in between | 17:25 |
| th1a | Well, the "USA" one is certainly hairy in its implementation right now. | 17:25 |
| ignas | users can't see that anyway | 17:25 |
| ignas | but i saw users get scared when they see all the languages except their own in demographics, or see the "race" field | 17:25 |
| Lumiere | it is good that demographics can go poof imo | 17:26 |
| th1a | Well, it is hairy to the user, too. OTOH, other similar systems aren't that elegant either. You just have a lot of data to cram in. | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | cando 2007 will require no demographics in VA | 17:26 |
| th1a | I'm not pushing for the current implementation to be the default. | 17:26 |
| ignas | we'll just ask users about that | 17:26 |
| th1a | Or fields, for that matter. | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | the mandate we got from our CTE people is 'testing number only' | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | (referring to VA's Standards of Learning state generated testing number for a student) | 17:27 |
| th1a | OK... so jinty, you'll arrive in Seville with a list of things that need to be packaged? | 17:28 |
| jinty | yeah, sure | 17:28 |
| th1a | And we'll show it to Oliver and duck ;-) | 17:29 |
| Lumiere | do you need ogra? he's on #ltsp right now working through ltsp-boot stuff | 17:29 |
| th1a | We'll be seeing him in person in a couple days. | 17:29 |
| Lumiere | k | 17:30 |
| th1a | Any last words? | 17:30 |
| Lumiere | should I warn him to run away screaming if he sees you? | 17:30 |
| th1a | No, I need the element of surprise. | 17:30 |
| Lumiere | ah | 17:30 |
| th1a | Oh, so are the drop down menus in trunk now? | 17:30 |
| Lumiere | yes | 17:30 |
| Lumiere | so is resource scheduling | 17:30 |
| Lumiere | it seems | 17:31 |
| th1a | OK, so I can reasonably use that in my brief demo at UES? | 17:31 |
| ignas | yes, and yes | 17:31 |
| ignas | th1a: you should at least try it out before that | 17:31 |
| Lumiere | ignas: how stable is it? | 17:31 |
| ignas | and yell at me to fix it | 17:31 |
| th1a | ignas: Yes, I will try it out ;-) | 17:31 |
| Lumiere | if I moved my beta test site over to it | 17:31 |
| Lumiere | how much of a boom would I hear? | 17:31 |
| ignas | Lumiere: as stable as always ;) | 17:31 |
| th1a | OK. Have a good week, folks. | 17:32 |
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| Lumiere | I'll take that as stable enough to keep me sane | 17:32 |
| ignas | your resources might get broken, or not | 17:32 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 17:32 | |
| Lumiere | rofl | 17:32 |
| Lumiere | I'm cool with that | 17:32 |
| ignas | th1a: when will you have some time for the requirement discussion | 17:32 |
| Lumiere | kjcole: broken server again? | 17:32 |
| th1a | Software requirements or academic requirements? | 17:32 |
| ignas | both | 17:33 |
| ignas | i hate surprises ;) | 17:33 |
| kjcole | Yep. :-( | 17:33 |
| kjcole | I'm finally giving up and moving the server off-campus. | 17:33 |
| th1a | ignas: Do you want to talk before I go to Spain or after? | 17:33 |
| ignas | whenever you will have enough time | 17:34 |
| th1a | Well, is in one week ok? | 17:34 |
| ignas | yes, fine | 17:34 |
| ignas | you will have some time to think about it ;) | 17:34 |
| th1a | OK. Next Monday or Tuesday. | 17:34 |
| ignas | Monday we'll have a meeting so we can decide it then | 17:35 |
| th1a | Or we could just talk after the meeting next week. | 17:35 |
| th1a | ignas: OK. | 17:35 |
| ignas | have a nice week | 17:35 |
| Lumiere | *poof to shower* | 17:35 |
| th1a | You too. | 17:35 |
| Lumiere | talk to people later today | 17:35 |
| th1a | Yes, I have to be afk for a bit, too. | 17:35 |
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| ignas | btw - tomorrow is a national holiday, so i might be a bit of an afk ;) | 17:41 |
| th1a | jfroche: So you've got a problem getting timetables and schedules from your school -- they're only on paper? | 18:08 |
| jfroche | th1a: i have trouble to get in touch with the guy who is in charge of the time table | 18:09 |
| jfroche | he is the only person to tell me if "his" software can export to any usefull format for us | 18:09 |
| th1a | Hm... don't you have another contact at the school who can help nag him? | 18:10 |
| jfroche | secretary tell me that he is the only one | 18:10 |
| jfroche | but i can ask above him for a meeting with him | 18:11 |
| th1a | Please do that. I mean, we don't need anything unreasonable from him... presumably his system already exports to something? | 18:13 |
| th1a | Or is it entirely self-contained? | 18:13 |
| jfroche | i am praying that some exports exists | 18:14 |
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| erchache | th1a jinty | 20:51 |
| erchache | mi email is asmarin@us.es | 20:51 |
| erchache | messenger erchache2000@hotmail.com | 20:51 |
| erchache | skype erchache2000 | 20:51 |
| erchache | my personal phone is +34 660 20 93 72 | 20:52 |
| erchache | arrive from sevilla airport to downtown is very easy | 20:52 |
| erchache | you can get a bus for 2 euros or taxi for 20 euros | 20:53 |
| erchache | if you have hotel on downtown use bus if flight permit it | 20:53 |
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| erchache | th1a: are you here? | 21:44 |
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| Lumiere | hi pcardune | 21:54 |
| pcardune | hi Lumiere | 21:55 |
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