| *** wrobel has quit IRC | 00:04 | |
| *** srichter has joined #schooltool | 01:07 | |
| *** didymo has joined #schooltool | 01:29 | |
| *** ignas has quit IRC | 02:38 | |
| *** eldafar has quit IRC | 02:57 | |
| *** eldafar has joined #schooltool | 03:00 | |
| *** jinty has quit IRC | 03:24 | |
| *** eldafar has quit IRC | 05:37 | |
| *** wrobel has joined #schooltool | 08:59 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 12:10 | |
| *** ignas has joined #schooltool | 12:13 | |
| *** gintas has joined #schooltool | 12:33 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 12:34 | |
| *** alga has joined #SchoolTool | 12:41 | |
| *** jinty has joined #schooltool | 12:41 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 13:42 | |
| *** vidasp has joined #schooltool | 14:17 | |
| *** didymo has quit IRC | 14:29 | |
| *** faassen has joined #schooltool | 14:39 | |
| *** mgedmin has joined #schooltool | 15:18 | |
| *** gintas has quit IRC | 15:50 | |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 15:53 | |
| *** Aiste has quit IRC | 15:55 | |
| * th1a shuffles some papers around. | 16:31 | |
| th1a | hoi ignas? | 16:32 |
|---|---|---|
| ignas | hi | 16:32 |
| ignas | vidasp: are you in there ? | 16:33 |
| th1a | So, what's going on in Vilnius? | 16:34 |
| ignas | i should finish the proposal either today evening or tomorrow morning | 16:35 |
| ignas | stumbled on a couple of Zope3 bugs last couple of days | 16:35 |
| ignas | but now they seem fixed so buildbod should stop shouting and i will commit some more of the calendaring with new UI stuff | 16:36 |
| ignas | vidas didn't do that much since we last talked as he was busy on friday | 16:36 |
| ignas | and he is not working on Mondays and Tuesdays | 16:36 |
| th1a | Are you working on the trunk now? | 16:37 |
| ignas | no, on a branch | 16:37 |
| th1a | OK, I'll check that out. | 16:37 |
| ignas | so i would not disrupt jinty's or anyone elses work | 16:37 |
| ignas | as soon as Vidas will do the calendar widget calendar views will be finished up and i'll work on attendance | 16:38 |
| th1a | OK... | 16:39 |
| ignas | i have Proposal, Calendaring, Attendance, Temporary tabs in the order of priority | 16:39 |
| th1a | Ah, right. | 16:40 |
| th1a | I've been trying to figure out how we're going to handle this transition to your working full time. | 16:40 |
| ignas | as for schools, as soon as gintas comes back (he's away for the rest of the week) we'll try to contact a school | 16:41 |
| th1a | OK... Do you have any in particular in mind? | 16:41 |
| ignas | just to find out whether that particular school (the one gintas studied in) is interested | 16:41 |
| th1a | Is that a high school? | 16:41 |
| th1a | secondary? | 16:41 |
| ignas | Vilnius Lyceum | 16:42 |
| ignas | high school | 16:43 |
| th1a | Do they do teacher education at the University? | 16:43 |
| ignas | teacher education ? | 16:44 |
| th1a | training people to be teachers. | 16:44 |
| th1a | If so, that might be a good place to get leads. | 16:45 |
| ignas | not sure about it | 16:47 |
| ignas | if we didn't need one on one contact | 16:47 |
| ignas | i could get a school easily as my mother is informatics teacher, but the schoolt is 350 km away from Vilnius | 16:48 |
| th1a | Hm... well, still, that is good to know. | 16:49 |
| th1a | That's still in Lithuania? | 16:49 |
| ignas | yes :) | 16:50 |
| ignas | my hometown | 16:50 |
| th1a | If we couldn't find anywhere else, would it be a possibility for you to work with them and visit a few days a month? | 16:51 |
| th1a | I don't know how hard it is to get there, etc... | 16:52 |
| ignas | my mother would be happy about that :) but i'd rather stay here (the ticket both ways is 10 Euro for a student and 20 Euro for a grownup) | 16:52 |
| ignas | but still vlinius would be much better ;) | 16:53 |
| th1a | I'm sure you'd rather stay in Vilnius. I've just been trying to figure out whether to make a proposal to Mark before you have a school. | 16:54 |
| th1a | I think we'd both just be afraid that it might never happen. | 16:55 |
| th1a | On the other hand, I'd like to have things settled. | 16:55 |
| th1a | So are you planning on continuing to work on SchoolTool for the next few weeks, or are you going to have other work to do? | 16:57 |
| ignas | sorry | 17:02 |
| ignas | was gone a bit talking to gintas about contact school | 17:02 |
| th1a | np. | 17:02 |
| ignas | we'll try to talk to the school before next tuesday IRC meeting | 17:03 |
| ignas | just to konow whether they are interested | 17:03 |
| th1a | OK. That would be helpful. | 17:04 |
| ignas | i am pretty sure that i'll be working on schooltool for next 2-3 weeks | 17:04 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:05 |
| ignas | oh, as for the full time concept, I hope that you will not have a problem with a plan to "borrow" some time from POV to do pair programming on more difficult parts of design/implementation | 17:06 |
| th1a | No, that is a good idea. | 17:06 |
| ignas | while returning those hours by working on POV projects for that much time | 17:06 |
| ignas | to even it out | 17:06 |
| th1a | The important part is giving you more of a sense of ownership and responsibility for the project as a whole. | 17:06 |
| th1a | And not routing all the communication through me. | 17:07 |
| th1a | And not having me make technical decisions... | 17:08 |
| *** gintas has joined #schooltool | 17:08 | |
| ignas | that would leave a lot less thinking about "should i be doing this, and who is paying" for me i hope ... | 17:08 |
| th1a | Right. | 17:08 |
| th1a | You'll have more responsibility for deciding what needs to be done to get ST working at your school. | 17:09 |
| th1a | I'll have a few priorities, too. | 17:10 |
| th1a | But I'll try to limit that. | 17:11 |
| th1a | And also, I'm hoping not working on a contract basis will make it easier to handle bugfixes quickly. | 17:11 |
| ignas | well there will be some balancing between your priorities, project priorities (benchmarking framework, refactoring etc.) and client priorities (need that button in there) ... | 17:12 |
| ignas | but i think it is manageable | 17:12 |
| * ignas is looking forward into the bright future | 17:13 | |
| th1a | Yes. We may need to defer framework priorities to focus on client priorities. | 17:13 |
| th1a | I think we've historically spent too much time fussing with the framework. | 17:13 |
| th1a | It is hard to resist. | 17:13 |
| th1a | Without an anxious client. | 17:14 |
| ignas | no, not really, ivija is way less frameworky as it has clients using it | 17:14 |
| th1a | ivija? | 17:15 |
| ignas | our inside project | 17:15 |
| th1a | We do have an excuse with SchoolTool as our real client (Mark) explicitly wants a framework. | 17:16 |
| *** th1a has quit IRC | 17:16 | |
| *** th1a has joined #schooltool | 17:16 | |
| th1a | Whoops. | 17:16 |
| * faassen listens in to the dicussion. :) | 17:17 | |
| ignas | just IMVHO but how many frameworks built from scratch (without building a few working applications or broken frameworks first) do you know? | 17:17 |
| th1a | Hi fassen. | 17:17 |
| faassen | anyway, I don't see how ignas and th1a there said 'no not really' :) | 17:17 |
| faassen | I mean, th1a said, we may do too much frameworky stuff as we don't have clients. | 17:18 |
| ignas | faassen: i was not there | 17:18 |
| faassen | and then ignas said, no not really because on our internal project is less frameworky as it has clients. | 17:18 |
| faassen | and I thought huh, they agree but why the not really? :) | 17:18 |
| ignas | no not really was attributed to "We may need to defer framework priorities to focus on client priorities." | 17:19 |
| th1a | Actually, we're just a weird case because really our client is Mark, and his goal is to have a framework. | 17:19 |
| faassen | yeah. | 17:19 |
| ignas | as i think that framework building and anxious clients are inseparable ... | 17:19 |
| faassen | you need clients. | 17:19 |
| faassen | to get a *good* framework. | 17:19 |
| faassen | though of course with clients you also get a 'awwwh this framework sucks, I need to fix it' | 17:19 |
| faassen | :) | 17:19 |
| faassen | so it's never perfect. :) | 17:19 |
| ignas | "rome was not build in one day" | 17:20 |
| ignas | "creating good software takse 10 years" | 17:20 |
| th1a | faassen: Yes, I think we've learned that clients are a necessity. It is one of the many obvious things we've managed to demonstrate. | 17:20 |
| faassen | Rome was not designed up front for its inhabitants. :) | 17:20 |
| faassen | it actually was in use straight from the start. :) | 17:20 |
| th1a | faassen: I was just wondering if Infrae had done that Zope 3/LDAP project yet. | 17:21 |
| faassen | th1a: no, still waiting for client, but Very Soon Now. :) | 17:21 |
| faassen | th1a: client is taking forever getting their LDAP ready | 17:22 |
| th1a | Also, I'm really impressed with lxml's XML Schema validation. | 17:22 |
| faassen | th1a: but we don't mind as we're busy enough. | 17:22 |
| faassen | th1a: oh, thanks. it's actually libxml2 that does that. but lxml makes it usable for normal human beings such as you and me. :) | 17:22 |
| * mgedmin is not impressed with libxml2's segfaults while processing xpath queries | 17:22 | |
| faassen | mgedmin: it does that? | 17:22 |
| mgedmin | ask ignas | 17:23 |
| mgedmin | he told me it does | 17:23 |
| mgedmin | occasionally | 17:23 |
| th1a | I figured the actual work was being done by libxml2, but you have made it easy. | 17:23 |
| faassen | mgedmin: hm, the libxml2 people are quite good at responding to bug reports. | 17:23 |
| faassen | mgedmin: might be a good idea to report it. | 17:23 |
| ignas | faassen: ok i'll try to do that next time | 17:23 |
| * mgedmin stops and wonders why he never thought about that | 17:23 | |
| mgedmin | oops ;) | 17:23 |
| faassen | I know you thought about that. | 17:24 |
| faassen | but did you actually do it? :) | 17:24 |
| * faassen grins. | 17:24 | |
| mgedmin | I saw some segfaults myself a long while ago, when I passed invalid xpath expressions | 17:24 |
| mgedmin | it never occurred to me to send a bug report | 17:24 |
| faassen | okay, I don't recall seeing that with lxml, but I haven't stress tested it a lot. | 17:24 |
| faassen | sometimes it segfaults iwth the Python bindings (not lxml) because you get a NULL back or something weird. | 17:24 |
| faassen | and you send it back into the code that would work with a legitimate expression. | 17:24 |
| faassen | and then it fails in there with a segfault due to bad input. | 17:25 |
| faassen | (it could happen with lxml, it's just that we consider it a bug, and the default Python bindings dont' :) | 17:25 |
| th1a | I have been doing a lot of work on my SIF server: http://tinyzis.org | 17:25 |
| th1a | It is almost done. | 17:25 |
| faassen | cool! | 17:25 |
| th1a | Adding XML schema validation of all incoming and outgoing XML has been really helpful in making things conform to the spec. | 17:26 |
| th1a | And being able to do that with a couple lines of code was great :-) | 17:26 |
| faassen | th1a: cool, I like small bits of code that do lots of neat stuff. :) | 17:27 |
| th1a | That's what Python is all about. | 17:27 |
| faassen | as a tip concerning project layout, you might want to consider namespacing all your packages and put it into a 'src' directory. | 17:27 |
| faassen | that makes it easier to use distutils and make an egg later. | 17:28 |
| th1a | Yes... there is still time to rearrange that stuff. | 17:28 |
| faassen | like make a package 'tinyzis' with an empty __init__.py and put the source in there. | 17:28 |
| th1a | One goal of this project for me is to apply YAGNI to the organization of the project. | 17:28 |
| faassen | it helps to separate distribution directory from package directory, basically. | 17:28 |
| faassen | sure. :) | 17:28 |
| faassen | but there's the other YAGNI: You Are Gonna Need It :) | 17:29 |
| th1a | That is, I can get myself caught up at the beginning in organizing things, setting up a repository, etc., and then never write any real code. | 17:29 |
| faassen | sure, I'm telling you now. :) | 17:29 |
| ignas | th1a: i did some experimentation with realtime compression of ZODB and i think that it is possible to decrease the size of schooltool's ZODB that way if we'll run into space problems with attendance tracking for a few years | 17:29 |
| th1a | I'll make a package prior to 0.1. | 17:29 |
| faassen | th1a: there's time to namespace things and organize the repos. you shouldn't start out making packages. :) | 17:29 |
| th1a | ignas: What kind of compression? | 17:29 |
| faassen | th1a: start out iwth a module, expand into a package from there, etc. | 17:29 |
| th1a | faassen: Right. | 17:29 |
| ignas | th1a: do you remember when Data.fs file was getting into gigabytes when sample data was being generated | 17:30 |
| faassen | I remember that taking a long time. :) | 17:30 |
| th1a | ignas: Yes. | 17:30 |
| faassen | and then my harddrive being full. :) | 17:30 |
| ignas | th1a: so i got an idea that such things can get compressed easily, so i managed to prototype a working compressed ZODB backend (meaning that all the data is getting zlib.compressed before getting written into the hard drive) | 17:31 |
| faassen | ignas: it's interesting that the average transaction is big enough to really benefit from compression | 17:31 |
| faassen | ignas: like, if you change the title of some object, would that still compress? I guess it depends on the size of the object's pickle. | 17:32 |
| ignas | faassen: i am not compressing transactions yet, i am compressing smalled 8kb chunks | 17:32 |
| faassen | ignas: ah, sorry, I misunderstood. blocks of what? | 17:32 |
| ignas | the prototype was dumb indexed compressed file | 17:33 |
| ignas | you do zlifile.write("lot's of stuff") | 17:33 |
| faassen | so you store in a compressed file instead of in a non-compressed file. | 17:33 |
| ignas | yes | 17:33 |
| faassen | okay, that sounds like it could work, easier and simpler, I guess. :) | 17:33 |
| ignas | it was a proof of concept so i did some 5-6 hours of coding | 17:33 |
| faassen | so how much smaller did it get? | 17:33 |
| ignas | ~ 5 times | 17:34 |
| faassen | pretty good. | 17:34 |
| faassen | I wonder how that works for binary data like pdfs and such. | 17:34 |
| faassen | people love bloating ZODB's with those. | 17:34 |
| ignas | it can get better + faster then that just that i don't have time for hobby projects :) | 17:35 |
| th1a | This would, of course, be the danger of putting you on ST full time without a local client. | 17:35 |
| th1a | ;-) | 17:35 |
| ignas | faassen: i think you could take the diff and reimplement it yourself in a weekend to work better ;) | 17:36 |
| ignas | http://ignas.pov.lt/experimental_compressed_backend_for_ZODB.diff | 17:36 |
| ignas | i have unit tests lying somewhere around, but "_backup" uncompressed file was more reliable on spotting bugs | 17:37 |
| *** vidasp has quit IRC | 18:49 | |
| *** ignas has quit IRC | 19:35 | |
| *** gintas has quit IRC | 19:56 | |
| *** povbot has joined #schooltool | 20:10 | |
| *** faassen has quit IRC | 20:50 | |
| *** gintas has joined #schooltool | 20:59 | |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 21:09 | |
| *** alga has quit IRC | 22:00 | |
| *** gintas has quit IRC | 23:32 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!